Software boxing programs, some a bit shady

To the point, Keyclone is approved by Blizzard for software boxing.

However I have not seen any information regarding some of the other software packages out there. Which concerns me. Take for example Autohotkey. This is a macro writing program, which could be used for automation. If they allow Autohotkey to be used then it doens't flag accounts. This would allow anyone to use it for other purposes against the TOS. What stops anyone from abusing this software?

Point is, if they flag it as bad (if not already) those that use said unapproved software will be screwed. I very much doubt any type of message will be put out to say "Hey guys this is bad software so if you use it please stop now". Nope they are just going to hit the ban hammer. Just something to think about. EVERY BODY PANIC!

But really with the amount of effort and time we all invest in our accounts, I can at least speak for myself when I want to go with a known true good thing. That's the main reason why I went hardware to start off. Because it's a investment of time, a lot of it. If that's something you can lose in a drop of a hat and not blink a eye more power to ya. Me I’ll stick to the book and keep all my work so my fun continues. 8)

I see.

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Originally Posted by Bradster',index.php?page=Thread&postID=112236#post 112236][font='Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif

To the point, Keyclone is approved by Blizzard for software boxing.

However I have not seen any information regarding some of the other software packages out there. Which concerns me. [/font]Take for example Autohotkey. This is a macro writing program, which could be used for automation. If they allow Autohotkey to be used then it doens't flag accounts. This would allow anyone to use it for other purposes against the TOS. What stops anyone from abusing this software?

Point is, if they flag it as bad (if not already) those that use said unapproved software will be screwed. I very much doubt any type of message will be put out to say "Hey guys this is bad software so if you use it please stop now". Nope they are just going to hit the ban hammer. Just something to think about. EVERY BODY PANIC!

But really with the amount of effort and time we all invest in our accounts, I can at least speak for myself when I want to go with a known true good thing. That's the main reason why I went hardware to start off. Because it's a investment of time, a lot of it. If that's something you can lose in a drop of a hat and not blink a eye more power to ya. Me I’ll stick to the book and keep all my work so my fun continues. 8)

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Yeah AHK can be used to violate the terms, but so can programmable keyboards, x-keys, etc.

I would think they would keep it as it is now, on a case by case basis. You are fine to use it, but if they catch any whiff of you using some sort of automation or more than one key getting sent per press, etc, I would think you would have problems eventually.

Thats why people using the line formation macro stuff scares me, although it looks cool i would never risk it.

Like Joe just said, you're not in danger of getting banned using AHK more than using a G15 keyboard. When Blizzard specifically states NO to AutoHotKey, then we'll switch to something else. I know there are plenty of users who have been told that key broadcasting (beyond just KeyClone) is legal as long as automation is not being used, regardless of the form.

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Originally Posted by JoeWunsch',index.php?page=Thread&postID=112321#pos t112321]
[quote='Bradster',index.php?page=Thread&postID=1122 36#post112236][font='Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif

[/font]

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Yeah AHK can be used to violate the terms, but so can programmable keyboards, x-keys, etc.

I would think they would keep it as it is now, on a case by case basis. You are fine to use it, but if they catch any whiff of you using some sort of automation or more than one key getting sent per press, etc, I would think you would have problems eventually.

Thats why people using the line formation macro stuff scares me, although it looks cool i would never risk it.[/quote]You can achieve any line formation legally.

A strait line formation requires 2 separate keys.

An "X" formation requires you to press down 2 keys at a time ... which is very simple with a G15-like keyboard, and also completely legal.


I do wish I had the balls to keep using a macro i made for automatically making my guys form a line... but I dont want to take the risks

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Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=112328#po st112328

Something to consider.

Most of the bigger names around here are hardware boxers. Meaning, they don't use software to broadcast keys, or mice, or anything. I could rattle of names, but most of you know who I am talking about already.

Every stop to wonder why? Hmmm?

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And others of us saw exactly what Brads talking about and went with Keyclone because of that, and the fact that we're lazy (at least on my part.) Granted I was thinking about it the other day, and if instead of dumping a bunch of money into my system to 5 box on the single PC I'd have bought 4 more low end boxes with decent cards, I'd have a hardware solution now instead of software...

In the end, I'm comfortable with what I setup, but since I know there's a fishbot out there thats based on AutoHotKey's sister application AutoIT it makes me wonder how long before that banhammer swings... though there are enough LEGIT uses of AHK that I'd wager blizzard would warn first, ban 2nd... or stick to behavioral based bans for this... I'd hope...

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Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=112328#po st112328

Every stop to wonder why? Hmmm?

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PvP performance. Even if not for PvP, it's faster.

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Originally Posted by JoeWunsch',index.php?page=Thread&postID=112321#pos t112321]






[quote='Bradster',index.php?page=Thread&postID=1122 36#post112236][font='Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif

To the point, Keyclone is approved by Blizzard for software boxing.

However I have not seen any information regarding some of the other software packages out there. Which concerns me. [/font]Take for example Autohotkey. This is a macro writing program, which could be used for automation. If they allow Autohotkey to be used then it doens't flag accounts. This would allow anyone to use it for other purposes against the TOS. What stops anyone from abusing this software?

Point is, if they flag it as bad (if not already) those that use said unapproved software will be screwed. I very much doubt any type of message will be put out to say "Hey guys this is bad software so if you use it please stop now". Nope they are just going to hit the ban hammer. Just something to think about. EVERY BODY PANIC!

But really with the amount of effort and time we all invest in our accounts, I can at least speak for myself when I want to go with a known true good thing. That's the main reason why I went hardware to start off. Because it's a investment of time, a lot of it. If that's something you can lose in a drop of a hat and not blink a eye more power to ya. Me I’ll stick to the book and keep all my work so my fun continues. 8)

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Yeah AHK can be used to violate the terms, but so can programmable keyboards, x-keys, etc.

I would think they would keep it as it is now, on a case by case basis. You are fine to use it, but if they catch any whiff of you using some sort of automation or more than one key getting sent per press, etc, I would think you would have problems eventually.

Thats why people using the line formation macro stuff scares me, although it looks cool i would never risk it.[/quote] Good point, some hardware like you listed can do that. But there is limitation. With Auto hotkey full automation could be achieved. The software is quite easy to use. I think that’s one reason some pick it, which is understandable.

Let’s say the software is on the ok list. What I’m saying is, because of that now anyone could load it up and have it automated to play for them or whatever. No company would allow a program to be loaded in to memory that could potential allow AFK play. By putting this software (or others) on that list it provides easy accessible tools for full automation. There just not going to allow that.

I’ve heard rumors, and I’ve seen things related to Auto hotkey (none of the others out there yet however) but not from a trust worthy source or a confirmed ban.

Perhaps I’m a bit paranoid but I feel the time I invested holds a high personal value and I’d hate to put something like that risk. I’m just tossing this out there not to promote hardware boxing, or specify software programs. I’ m just stating it’s a risk and some may not be aware just how much water their treading across.

Then again I believe with the hardware stuff like the G15 they have a section written about what you can and can’t do with it. Perhaps in the future they may have something like that for some of the other software packages. But I feel they will never approve software that can be used for full automation.

Blizzard out of all the companies I’ve experienced take 3rd party software very serious (insert joker pun here). I’d hate to dance around with shady stuff and loose. I don’t think many are aware just how risky some of those software packages are. You only get one chance when it comes to 3rd party software. Once your account is banned you can call them every day of the week and the answer will be "too bad so sad". :S

For the record If I do decide to 10 box (to much going on right now with house) I will most likely go software for the next 5. Mainly because I have a rowdy main machine already and it will save me some nice cash on the other machines AND electric. However if there wasn't already documentation about said software use by Blizzard rest assured I'd be buying more computers.

The thing with AHK is that it is a very legitimate software used by many more folks outside of game than in. There are so many ways to automate keystrokes many of which are hardware driven that they would be hard pressed to keep up. In the grand scheme I think they are more wary of botting and complete unattended play than a few folks looping summon water 3-4 times which is probably what most every day person does with a G15.

I may just be an idiot but I like to assume if two people were using AHK, one for botting one not, blizzard would be able to differentiate beetween the two.

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Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=112328#po st112328

Every stop to wonder why? Hmmm?

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maybe because back at the beginning, there weren't very many friendly software solutions?

i do have a question to a hardware boxer... how do you keep the keys from passing if you are strictly hardware (like wireless keyboards and mice)?
how do you only talk from one character?

what about breaking follow? without a do-not-pass list, that would mean you need to unbind the keys... but what happens when your main dies and you try to use another machine? aren't the keys unbound??

as for performance, any decrease in performance would be due to overloading the hardware with to many wows. my old rig would limp along getting 5/25 while 5-boxing in the barrens... 4/4 fps in orgrimmar (if i was lucky). now i'm getting 50/50 fps @ 1920x1200 everywhere while 5-boxing... (8g + 2x 260s + Q9450 ftw!)

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Originally Posted by 'keyclone',index.php?page=Thread&postID=112366#pos t112366

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Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=112328#po st112328

Every stop to wonder why? Hmmm?

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maybe because back at the beginning, there weren't very many friendly software solutions?

i do have a question to a hardware boxer... how do you keep the keys from passing if you are strictly hardware (like wireless keyboards and mice)?
how do you only talk from one character?

what about breaking follow? without a do-not-pass list, that would mean you need to unbind the keys... but what happens when your main dies and you try to use another machine? aren't the keys unbound??

as for performance, any decrease in performance would be due to overloading the hardware with to many wows. my old rig would limp along getting 5/25 while 5-boxing in the barrens... 4/4 fps in orgrimmar (if i was lucky). now i'm getting 50/50 fps @ 1920x1200 everywhere while 5-boxing... (8g + 2x 260s + Q9450 ftw!)

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For me if my main dies I just hit (example) Alt 1. All the toons then follow/assist playerB. Also I switch to the other mouse to drive since its currently on Player B. Now if that dies I hit the switch once for Player C then Control 1 (example). then keep on rolling. There’s a couple ways to do it but basically that’s what I do. I think Keyclones PIP feature in this situation is pretty pimp for switching mains.

Round robin like features equals different key binds for hardware. Example with my locks I use the arrow keys for the 4 howl of Terrors. For the shaman nothing yet but maybe I’ll assign earth bind or that new pimp AOE toss you up in the air totem thing, wrath totem? I like the fact Keyclone compacts all of that in a round robin feature freeing up a bunch of keys.

Break follow I use the "+" formation setup so (example) I want to pull something to my group I spread them out by pressing ~ then run up with my "main" and pull. I thought software boxers did this too, anyrate this works great just tapping the formation key.

More on the what if main dies and keys unbound. I'm not a keyboard turner, for keyboard turners i guess that would be a real problem. Perhaps diffrent movment keys, which would be a pain. For me I just drive with the mouse and spam press my WTF Pwn keys of death :D

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Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=112328#po st112328

Something to consider.

Most of the bigger names around here are hardware boxers. Meaning, they don't use software to broadcast keys, or mice, or anything. I could rattle of names, but most of you know who I am talking about already.

Every stop to wonder why? Hmmm?

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Because there WAS no way to software box when I was starting out. Even if I wanted to. The hardware was not good enough. It still isn't in my opinion to achieve the higher levels of PvP play but for 2 or even 4 or 5 it certainly WORKS.

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I may just be an idiot but I like to assume if two people were using AHK, one for botting one not, blizzard would be able to differentiate beetween the two.

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Good luck with that AHK can read in a pixel or range of pixel (using 3 or 4 different methods).

<edit - please do not disclose methods to automate gameplay - Fursphere>
<Community Guidelines - Read Before Posting>

I have used AHK at work to automate all sort of things that can't be automated any other way, and because I have seen what it can do, I would never install it on a machine I used for an MMO.

Thats why as much as I am concerned that a closed source software boxing util could easily keylog me. I believe it is far less likely to be banned by Blizzard. Why? because I can not program delays into it .. much less read pixels and log files and automate game play.

[quote='keyclone',index.php?page=Thread&postID=1123 66#post112366]i do have a question to a hardware boxer... how do you keep the keys from passing if you are strictly hardware (like wireless keyboards and mice)?[/quote]

2 keyboards. I've considered trying to use a KVM hooked into both the multiplexer and hte main PC but I'm lazy.



That being said -- Blizz endorses the G15. The G15 CAN be used to automate behaviors. People have been banned for automating actions through a G15. G15s are not bannable in and of themselves (see GM Conversations wiki).

People can legally own a gun. A gun CAN be used to break the law. People have been put in jail for abusing their gun to shoot someone and/or commit armed robbery. Guns themselves do not put you in jail.



Alot of the "big names" also started boxing before ANY software was "confirmed" to be ok by blizzard. There are alot of reasons to hardware box, including the aforementioned reliability and better PvP performance (depending on system, of course). But keep in mind that the fact that software had not been confirmed ok by GMs had some thing to do with the decision making as well.

Besides, [url='http://www.vboxing.net/v/index.php?q=image/tid/229']hardware rigs are teh sex girl[/url].

<- is waiting for the fabled iPhone WoW client ...

Didn't we just have this discussion a few weeks ago?

I am not sure if I would say hardware is more reliable . I think its a wash we all use hardware and software to a great extent. Sure I might have 1 or 2 pieces of extra software and you might have 1 or 2 pieces of hardware but in the end there are pluses and minuses going either route. I am a fairly big fan of keyclone for several reasons one of which is it is catered to multi-boxing, straight out of the box you can get so much done. I could easily go hardware i certainly have all the pieces necessary but quite frankly not having been forced to go that route in the beginning the learning curve with software is much friendlier.

Either way its a preference as long as the end result is multiboxing goodness.

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Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=112435#po st112435

As keyclone (and XZin) have both pointed out, yes... back in the day only hardware was the option. But you both completely missed the point. Hardware is CHEAP now. If software was the best way to go.. don't you think everyone would switch? My main machine could do 5 on 1, but I still run 5 PCs.

My point was that hardware is more reliable. Its universal, you can run whatever OS you want. No false-positive bans from Warden (or whatever) doing software sniffing. No worrying about the author of "program x" not fixing a bug. No gimmicky multiple WoW installs, or "maximizer" programs.

In short, no 3rd party software (good or bad).

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Hardware is cheap, but one decent PC and a bit of software is cheaper. I'm not sure I agree with your hardware is more reliable mantra. Both solutions require hardware and both are impacted if hardware fails. Then again you have to pretty much be certain that you will actually enjoy multiboxing before setting up all that hardware.

You can run whatever OS you want - so long as it is one supported by Blizzard. So basically windows, mac os and some unix flavours.

Response times might be quicker for PVP but there is a limit to what the person controlling the hardware or software can handle. How many seriously high rated multiboxers are there at all regardless of hardware or software solution. I have no doubt that my ability as a player would never be such that the delay difference between a hardware and software solution would matter. Also for a lot of people PVP isn't the be all and end all of wow. I enjoy a bit of BG's but have no wish to set foot in an arena.

After you've gone through the blood sweat and tears of setting up all that hardware, ensuring the setup all works, and getting everything working perfectly why would you switch to 1 pc just to be able to do the same :)

I'm not knocking your achievement in getting a hardware setup - personally if a hardware setup was the only way to go I wouldn't be multiboxing, and I admire the tenacity to see it through, but I get the feeling that you are a little cheesed off that something that was so hard for you to do a couple of years back can be done so easily with a single piece of software (that is approved by blizzard).

Also - "no gimmicky multiple wow installations"..... What - you didnt have to install wow multiple times for your hardware setup?

False positives with Warden - not seen any reports of this in the few months that I've been on this site.

Possibly one or two bans due to incorrect details or a GM with a chip on his shoulder.

At the end of the day I don't see one setup being inately more superior than the other - they both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Going back to the original posters point I think it would be wise for people concerned that they aren't using a blizzard approved piece of software to pick up keyclone though.

This has kind of turned in to a hardware vs software thread. I'm a full hardware boxer but even so both have they pros and cons. I cannot pick sides because both offer the same results, and that is fun :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by 'Fizzler',index.php?page=Thread&postID=112486#post 112486

I am not sure if I would say hardware is more reliable . I think its a wash we all use hardware and software to a great extent. Sure I might have 1 or 2 pieces of extra software and you might have 1 or 2 pieces of hardware but in the end there are pluses and minuses going either route. I am a fairly big fan of keyclone for several reasons one of which is it is catered to multi-boxing, straight out of the box you can get so much done. I could easily go hardware i certainly have all the pieces necessary but quite frankly not having been forced to go that route in the beginning the learning curve with software is much friendlier.

Either way its a preference as long as the end result is multiboxing goodness.

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Exactly this :)

I'm a IT guy and had Xzin pretty much holding my hand designing my setup. Even for me to hook up this rats nest of wires (mainly the y-moue and Vetra setup) It took me a while to get it right. On a good note its a set and forget type of deal. That is until I move in 2 weeks. Bet your ass I took pictures lol. No idea how hard/easy you guys have it on the software end but at least your not crawling under a table for the 8th time :P

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Originally Posted by 'Bradster',index.php?page=Thread&postID=112576#pos t112576

This has kind of turned in to a hardware vs software thread. I'm a full hardware boxer but even so both have they pros and cons. I cannot pick sides because both offer the same results, and that is fun :thumbsup:

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Hear hear, or is that here here? In either case.. no pun intended lets get back to talking about RAF :P

Heh, technically, keyclone isn't approved by Blizzard.

The way keyclone functions is accepted within the guidelines Blizzard presented for its game. And as long as you don't abuse it, it is accepted. Same for any other programs.

As long as you don't bot, or do anything else illegal with such programs, it's fine. Most of these programs can allow for botting, but you just need common sense to know that's a surefire way to get a ban. :P Keyclone just happens to be made quite specifically to dual-box games, WoW in particular.

The day blizzard bans g15s is the day we can start worrying about the likes of autohotkey being used and causing problems.

If your not using it to automate, its not an issue, the same way if you arent making automacros on your keyboard, its fine. As for the " can they differentiate between ahk and a bot program" as the ahk users on this forum arent being banned for botting, and bots are, I think that is pretty self explanitory.

Link

I use Software because I don't want to smush 5 computers in 1 room and I don't want to purchase 5 low end computers basically only capable of playing WoW (I'm not saying the hardware boxers' computers are of this spec).

As for detecting the G15, what makes you think they can't? Unless the G15 installs Hardware drivers and the macro script commands are generated at that level (unlikely), Warden can probably detect the G15 hooks just the same as it could the AHK hooks. I think it still comes down to the investigation, of whether or not your char/group appears to be automated or not.

Skip to the bottom if you don't give a crap about Warden and Innerspace/WoWGlider.
Warden can automatically ban, when it finds something that is blatantly intercepting it's hooks or WoW data, or performing memory reads, but a lot is left up to investigation.

The most (I think) recent 3rd party software ban was Innerspace, however, consider the following:
Innerspace is not Open Source. I really doubt Blizzard disassembled the code, as this would be retardedly time consuming. It is well documented that Innerspace purposefully requires an extension to prevent Warden from detecting it.
Blizzard updates and installs new versions of Warden without warning, on the fly. Innerspace's Warden blocker (called ISXWarden) automatically either a) kills the connection and closes WoW when it detects a new version of Warden being uploaded, or b) Unloads the ISXWoW mod (used for inserting bot scripts). It does this infallably.
Blizzard's method of detection was human investigation of suspectable accounts (via reports mostly). These accounts were put on a list of suspects. A new Warden version was then uploaded to all non-suspect accounts. The bots were further investigated.
Some accounts were banned at this point. Then, new versions of Warden were uploaded to the other accounts to watch for disconnects and character halts. These accounts were then banned.
More recent bannings are due to server-side detection of things that no human could accomplish, IE. instant refacing, or instant corner turning.
Innerspace users who were not running any extensions (other then ISXWarden) or scripts have never been banned, except by accident, due to Warden erroneously returning a required DLL as an intrusive extension.

I know I'm turning this post into something that seems not to follow the thread, but the point I'm trying to make is that regular Autohotkey and other software users are very unlikely to get banned, and Software boxing tools are not likely to be added to any sort of Auto-Ban list. Any investigation will lead to blizzard not finding automation occuring.
Typical automation detection involves Blizzard inserting "hidden" interactable objects in your path/area, which do not show on your GUI, and thus whch the normal person at their keyboard would never find. However, automation software doesn't care about your GUI. It reads packets sent from the server, and would fail this "hidden" object test. Another method is to teleport your character a short distance away and observe the behavior.

Normal software boxers would never fall for these things, and thus would not be banned. If they were banned, it was either a mistake or they really are doing something they shouldn't be. AHK cannot sniff packets and does not install anything other then a Keyboard Hook. AHK is opensource. I'm pretty sure blizzard has reviewed the code, as it has been in existance for quite some time.

Resume reading here if you skipped the above.
I realize that if Blizzard does decide to demote use of Autohotkey and others, there really isn't much we can do about it. My arguement is that they won't take that step and ban the use of these types of 3rd Party Softwares in the first place. Innerspace and WoWGlider received the thumbs down because there is no other purpose to use these programs except to bot, which is solely talked about on their forums.

Threads like these are what this forum should avoid completely, as talking about AHK being used to bot is the sort of thing that would turn it into an app against the TOS.

I've never used Innerspace before, nor anything other then AHK, with which I simply broadcast keystrokes. I do try to keep track of everything though, as knowledge is power.

I was hesitent to hit the Submit button, but there are some facts that people should realize. I see now that this post is just a much longer version of what Ifalna posted below.