12 spell dmg or 5 crit 6 spell dmg for pvp suit (arena)??

I know shamans are more crit dependent than other class, but all other classes I have lived by the "Hit like a girl, Crit like a girl" theory and have always loaded up on spell dmg. Now add all the resilience and me having countless opponents down to a sliver of health after a volley and not able to finish them off, I'm starting to think of loading up on all 12 dmg gems. Its interesting theorycrafting this situation cause you can't think about it as one individual, you have to look at 60 more spell dmg on an individual is really 240 more spell dmg focused per spell as a group. Anyway I was curious if anyone has tried loading up on spell dmg. I know Ellay is running the 5crit 6spell dmg gems, but he is also in mostly S4 and atleast all S3 which gives him already 70-100 spell dmg over my S2 suit.

I run with the spell damage + spell crit gems for a variety of reasons. One big thing to consider: Shaman mana efficiency is tied to critting...

yeah but the difference is about 1 crit vs 60 spell dmg. Err correction 2.2 crit and 48 spell dmg vs 96 spell dmg.

All out spell damage in my opinion. You have plenty of crit from the gear bonuses I believe. You need tons of spell damage to punch through tough classes with your insta nuke.
Sometimes you are forced to go for a warlock or a disc priest, and that's where it's all about spell damage.

Can never go wrong with spell damage I believe.

i would say that, once ur around 20-22% spell crit, ur ok. Still crit can make u win games, the more u have, the more they will suffer.
anyways, spell dmg is still a good choice, if ur really into using NS as ur main weapon in pvp... personnaly, for every 12 spell i have 10 crit rating. u may think 2-3% more crit doesnt matter, but it does, imo.

Spell damage scales well against both ungeared opponents and geared opponents, whereas crit scales badly against well geared opponents.

Edit: there are also passive anti-crit talents to consider.. priests, shamans.. etc. In my opinion crit isn't worth pursuing if you're serious about arena play.

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Originally Posted by 'magwo',index.php?page=Thread&postID=102659#post10 2659

Edit: there are also passive anti-crit talents to consider.. priests, shamans.. etc. In my opinion crit isn't worth pursuing if you're serious about arena play.

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isn't for that exact reason why u try to stack a bit more crit ?
well, u'll end up without having crit to fight resilience, and u think 30more spell dmg ( or wtv ) on each char will give u the boost to win ?

if i recall correctly, weren't u just days ago defending the use of ToW totems in arena ? Now crit isn't worth pursuing.

"but its 12% crit moar! not 1 or 2 in gems!"
no one would change NS for ToW's...not if ur serious about arena play.

Personaly i use dmg/crit gems on all gems spots basicly of the reason that they cost half the price of the pure spell dps ones on my servers AH.. But also, i would say that my main do crit alot in arena. And it feels great so see those huge numbers :D

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Originally Posted by 'magwo',index.php?page=Thread&postID=102659#post10 2659

whereas crit scales badly against well geared opponents

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This is only true if you have a very small amount of starting crit, which shamans obviously do not. Crit scales just fine against high resilience opponents.

Expect that all targets will have 400 resilions. So lets say that yuor base crit that your stats are showing wouls be 20% crit... +10 from talents(not shown in the crit calculation) - 10 from 400 resilion on the target = 20% total crit crit. That meens that you should crit as often as you will proc a Lightening overload. And normaly 1 of the 4 bolt will proc.. or crit on each wave. Its the little extra dps that i found bedder then the 50 or so more spell dps..

To really answer this question correctly begs a lot of other questions (what's you current dmg/crit, is money an issue, what do you want to do), but generally speaking for most people the highest dmg/time yield comes from spell dmg.

It is actually possible to calculate the relationship between crit % and spell dmg given your stats if you're up for some fun, but generally speaking, I just follow that rule of thumb.

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=33146

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Originally Posted by 'magwo',index.php?page=Thread&postID=102659#post10 2659

Spell damage scales well against both ungeared opponents and geared opponents, whereas crit scales badly against well geared opponents.

Edit: there are also passive anti-crit talents to consider.. priests, shamans.. etc. In my opinion crit isn't worth pursuing if you're serious about arena play.

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I've seen someone post something similar to this before and I'm confused, or uniformed. The ONLY passive crit spell in a priest arsenal is VERY deep in the holy tree, Blessed Resilience http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=33146 which only reduces the chance for you to not be critically hit by 60% for 6 seconds AFTER you've been crit. Shamans possess no anti-crit talents for spells only for melee and ranged.

In all reality, there are more passive damage % modifiers than there are crit modifiers. Elemental Warding http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=28998, Shamanstic Rage http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=30823, Shadowform http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=15473, Spell Warding http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=27904, Ardent Defender http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=31854, Blessed Life http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=31830, Soul Link http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=19028, just to name a few off the top of my head.

So stacking too much +damage over +crit will mean an overall reduction in your amount of damage, and horrible mana efficiency. With +1035 damage unbuffed +1333 buffed and 23.16% chance to crit, my critical strikes against 496 resilience warlocks/spriests is still double the normal damage that I do to them.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but based on my experience and knowledge of the game, critting is just as important in arena as it is in PvE.

Edit: Forgot about Focused Will in the Disc tree but that's a 6% damage reduction after a crit, stackable, but purgable as well.

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Originally Posted by 'xtobbenx',index.php?page=Thread&postID=102714#pos t102714

Personaly i use dmg/crit gems on all gems spots basicly of the reason that they cost half the price of the pure spell dps ones on my servers AH.. But also, i would say that my main do crit alot in arena. And it feels great so see those huge numbers :D

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Hm, on Horde side (Al'Akir-EU)i haven't noticed this. Both Runed Crimson Spinel (12 dmg) and Potent Pyrestone (5 crit & 6 dmg) sell for ~ 250g +- 25g.
What is the AH price like on Alliance side?

//Ztar

average 200g uncutted for all epic gems

Well.. um.. there's also a significant tactical advantage in crit.. due to its chaotic nature.. with high amounts of crit you will be doing more unpredictable amounts of damage.. with a little luck, sometimes get 4 lightning bolts that crit, you can easily kill someone with 60-70% hp.

So well.. hmm I'm torn actualy, and I'll have to revise my previous statements.
Also, I still am a defender of TOWs.. I believe it's entirely possible to play arena well with TOWs.

I've been at 1650+ rating with both TOWs and NS.

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Originally Posted by 'magwo',index.php?page=Thread&postID=103358#post10 3358

Well.. um.. there's also a significant tactical advantage in crit.. due to its chaotic nature.. with high amounts of crit you will be doing more unpredictable amounts of damage.. with a little luck, sometimes get 4 lightning bolts that crit, you can easily kill someone with 60-70% hp.

So well.. hmm I'm torn actualy, and I'll have to revise my previous statements.
Also, I still am a defender of TOWs.. I believe it's entirely possible to play arena well with TOWs.

I've been at 1650+ rating with both TOWs and NS.

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You all are talking as if its 10% crit or something though. 2% crit over the course of an arena battle is gonna be maybe 2 extra crits per shaman. Significant yes. But so is 250 combined spell dmg, for every spell. I'm taking the chance I won't notice the 2% much, and betting I will notice the extra dmg on every volley. If I don't like it, its not as if I have any where else to stick all the gold from doing dailies so I will just regem.

I did that math on 100 Lightning Bolts. Of course this is just damage and doesn't take in effect clearcasting and so on.

Comparing 1000 spell dmg and 28% crit vs 950 spell dmg and 30% crit. Using the avg base for LB at 603, 603 reflects the average spell not counting Totem of the Void.

100 * (603 + (1000 * .794)) + 28 * (603 + (1000 * .794)) = 102838

100 * (603 + (950 * .794)) + 30 * (603 + (950 * .794)) = 99265

I didn't add in lightning overload but that would increase each by 10238.8 (1000dmg) and 9926.5 (950dmg).

Looking at this they are very very close, but I personally have always been one to go with reliable sustained dmg over hoping for a lucky crit. If winning the match is the difference between a lucky crit or not, then I'm already screwed. I'm pretty sure my math is correct using the 79.4% coefficent if anyone wants to verify.

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"hoping for a lucky crit."

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You're not really hoping for a lucky crit to increase your damage - you are hoping for a lucky crit to surprise and outdamage the opposing team's healers.

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Originally Posted by 'magwo',index.php?page=Thread&postID=103559#post10 3559

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"hoping for a lucky crit."

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You're not really hoping for a lucky crit to increase your damage - you are hoping for a lucky crit to surprise and outdamage the opposing team's healers.

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Consistently high dmg still outdps' their healers, however a crit at that point just finishes the job faster. >>>> Good sustained dps but relying on a crit to "suprise and outdamage the opposing team's healers." Knowing what you have is always better than hoping what you have imo. But then again we are talking about the difference of 50 spell dmg and 2 crit, not 200 spell dmg and 8 crit.

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Originally Posted by 'magwo',index.php?page=Thread&postID=103559#post10 3559

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"hoping for a lucky crit."

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You're not really hoping for a lucky crit to increase your damage - you are hoping for a lucky crit to surprise and outdamage the opposing team's healers.

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You say it yourself, you're "hoping." I prefer to win games by forcing my opponent to lose, not hoping I get a lucky string of crits.