This is not the place for Glider discussion. Please keep misconceptions and misunderstandings to yourself, and not here. If you want to discuss it, take it to their site.
3rd party programs != LUA addons.
Keyclone is fine l2p
Glider is Bad l2notbot
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This is not the place for Glider discussion. Please keep misconceptions and misunderstandings to yourself, and not here. If you want to discuss it, take it to their site.
3rd party programs != LUA addons.
Keyclone is fine l2p
Glider is Bad l2notbot
I don't disagree with most of the points they made - of course they need to keep out of the legal crosshairs by making sure they take a strong stance against inappropriate content in addons. Hot Coffee made that clear, I'm surprised it took them this long to set the record straight on this. Getting an "M" or "A" ESRB rating slapped on World of Warcraft would be a pretty rough break for Blizzard. Obfuscating code is obviously a bad deal, because Blizzard doesn't investigate addons for its user base - they depend on other users to look into addon code and say "Oh this addon is fine" or "Hey lookie here, there's a part of this addon that silently spams random players with pornographic messages."
I'll even turn a blind eye to Blizzard forbidding pay-based addons - imagine if the only Bigwigs or DBM addon available was pay-only. Having an addon with a purchase price or monthly fee being required to raid in WoW would seperate users pretty quickly. Also, I applaud them for taking a proactive stance on advertizing in-game. I don't want to see ad windows for weight loss start creeping into my addons.
The part that I'll fight with every breath of my body is forbidding donation requests. That's crossing the line, people are perfectly in their rights to make it known that they appreciate donations, and provide information on how to donate. I expect donation links on addon websites, but Blizzard should know just as well as all of us that you have to put the reminder where it'll be seen. Even the most charitable users only visit addon developer websites once in a blue moon - most people never visit them at all. Those same people use the addons every day.
So you are saying it's OK for Microsoft to mandate no one can charge for .NET applications and that they all must be free and unobfuscated?Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Souca',index.php?page=Thread&postID=188697#post18 8697
.NET is a free API and tools are available to develop entirely for free... just like LUA and the interface UI.
Windows is to .NET Applications as WoW is to WoW Addons.
Dangerous.
Slippery.
And while IANAL I would say dancing on non-compete laws.
Sorry, but there's no precedence that would put Microsoft at risk for content included in applications written to run on Windows. There is precedence that puts game companies at risk for content distributed to run in their games.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'zanthor',index.php?page=Thread&postID=188849#post 188849
Unless it drives off users.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=188758#p ost188758
If you used their hammer(software), materials(IP) and built it on their land(servers) then I suspect that they would claim ownership, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=188758#p ost188758
They would lose most of their customers - if you're suggesting that Blizzard will lose most of theirs (or developers) then I have to disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=188758#p ost188758
From what I've read, the real motivation behind this has nothing to do with mod-developers making money and everything to do with Bliz attempting to create a level playing field for all players. The reason IP is an issue is because Bliz wants to retain the rights to incorporate the functionality of any mods made by the community to the game itself (as they have done several times already - eg Omen). In otherwords they want to be able to copy the ideas of community developers and not be sued for doing so. It sucks for mod developers but is probably better overall for the players.
If WoW didn't have the level playing fied that it does (even system requirements are low to help with this) then it wouldn't have the millions of subscribers it has now.
Blizzard won't lose most of their customers - but thats not the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Portal',index.php?page=Thread&postID=188858#post1 88858
Lets say I'm making my living off a .NET application and Microsoft tried to force me to give it away - I would have two choices - one is to stop development of the product, and change careers. The other is to sue Microsoft for anti-competitive behavior in a country where that behavior is illegal. Are there freeware apps that do the same thing as mine? Maybe - but mine is better - how do I know this? People are willing to pay me for my solution while free products exist.
Flip that around to WoW - Same situation - in this case we'll see the top quality developers stop making their product and focus on where to make money elsewhere - whats lost? Their contributions, innovations, etc. As such we the players now have a worse selection of addons that aren't as robust or stable. Blizzard gains nothing by this move - they lose plenty.
Is it their right? Absolutely. Their game, their platform. Is it inherently a bad decision? Absolutely.
Are any of us likely to see the direct results in a tangible and measurable way - thats to be seen, but I'd wager yes.
And as far as blizzard caring about a level playing field to that extent - I'd call bullshit on it. Not that it matters, we are all just guessing on the why. My guess is to say this was directly related to Carbonite adding a free-add-driven version and blizzard overreacting to such. (Don't get me wrong, they CERTAINLY needed to react, I just think the ban on obfusctated code and retail sale of software was crap.)
I think absolutely applies to the mod developers, sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'zanthor',index.php?page=Thread&postID=188884#post 188884
Blizzard? No way. For it to be bad they need to lose players either now, or in the future due to lack of mod development. The number they lose would also need to be greater than potential losses to that level playing field we discussed.
Players? Not for most of us - at least not yet. Yes, we'll probably lose carbonite and the potential for future add-ons from those looking to make a career out of it (or at least suplement their income) - but again, that has to be weighed against the potential of being made to pay for 'required' mods. There are many mods that are required for raiding guilds.
Your guess fits better into a litigious society than mine so I concede that is probalby the case. While I think they do care about a level playing field (banning of gold sellers, botters etc) it was probably not adequate to put paid mods on their radar as none currently affect the balance of the game. Their history has been more reactive then pro-active.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'zanthor',index.php?page=Thread&postID=188884#post 188884
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/policy/ui.html#1 (and 5, to a lesser extent) seem to be the ones everyone is focusing on as "bad". Even though there are very, very few addons that are affected by this (only one named in the thread that I saw, and I know WoWEcon is as well.) it seems like people are screaming it's the end of addons as we know it. Seriously? A couple addons want to charge, Blizzard says no, and now everyone is morally offended and some people are even talking about cancelling their addon development or wow accounts? People who most likely never charged for their addon nor used one that did? I'm sure people will still try to charge for addons even though it's against the rules, just like people still bot, people still buy gold, still sell accounts. This rule is just to show that they don't endorse it, and are trying to quash the trend before it starts. Having professional mods that give you a distinct gameplay advantage only obtainable by paying are bad. Sure, "anyone could write their own version," but how long do you think it would take to write something like Auctioneer or QuestHelper?Quote:
1) Add-ons must be free of charge.
All add-ons must be distributed free of charge. Developers may not create "premium" versions of add-ons with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on.
This is good. While 99.9% of users will never look at the actual code, having easy to read makes it easy to find bugs and to verify that it does what it says it does.Quote:
2) Add-on code must be completely visible.
The programming code of an add-on must in no way be hidden or obfuscated, and must be freely accessible to and viewable by the general public.
Good, duh.Quote:
3) Add-ons must not negatively impact World of Warcraft realms or other players.
Add-ons will perform no function which, in Blizzard Entertainment's sole discretion, negatively impacts the performance of the World of Warcraft realms or otherwise negatively affects the game for other players. For example, this includes but is not limited to excessive use of the chat system, unnecessary loading from the hard disk, and slow frame rates.
Very good. With all the Warhammer adds popping up online, can you imagine if something like Omen or DBM got paid by Warhammer to put a big warhammer ad in-game when you log on?Quote:
4) Add-ons may not include advertisements.
Add-ons may not be used to advertise any goods or services.
Sucks for addon developers trying to cover costs and make money from their addons, but as other people have said; there are very few addons that actually fall under this category. Personally, I think less spam is always good. Besides, you can always say something like "Please visit the official addon website at blahblah.com to show your support for this addon" and ask for donations on the site. Just don't use the word 'donation' in-game and you're fine.Quote:
5) Add-ons may not solicit donations.
Add-ons may not include requests for donations. We recognize the immense amount of effort and resources that go into developing an add-on; however, such requests should be limited to the add-on website or distribution site and should not appear in the game.
Just to cover themselves I guess, since the "T" rating is also followed by "game experience may change by online play" clause or whatever.Quote:
6) Add-ons must not contain offensive or objectionable material.
World of Warcraft has been given a "T" by the ESRB, and similar ratings from other ratings boards around the world. Blizzard Entertainment requires that add-ons not include any material that would not be allowed under these ratings.
Another cover-their-rear clause I assume.Quote:
7) Add-ons must abide by World of Warcraft ToU and EULA.
All add-ons must follow the World of Warcraft Terms of Use and the World of Warcraft End User License Agreement.
Pretty sure this has always been there, and obviously they have the right to do whatever they want with their game, they do own it.Quote:
8 ) Blizzard Entertainment has the right to disable add-on functionality as it sees fit.
To maintain the integrity World of Warcraft and ensure the best possible gaming experience for our players, Blizzard Entertainment reserves the right to disable any add-on functionality within World of Warcraft at its sole discretion. For more information...
Yep, and they DO make a difference - but thats strictly the choice of the players to use them. Vent makes a difference - even with the uber shitty in game voicechat - are they going to ban use of VOIP coms outside their own for a fee?Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Portal',index.php?page=Thread&postID=188954#post1 88954
As for the policy - yes, 1 and 5 are the sticking points that offend me.
1 - No pay for play addons - this offends me as a capitalist pig. If I have a product or service and chose to sell it - by god in America I have the right to do so. Now does Blizzard have the right to block that Addon - certainly. But by doing so I fear they will hurt the free software that competes by not having professional competition to keep them up. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread - how far would OS solutions be if pay solutions didn't exist.
5 - This is touchy ground - Quite frankly if the user doesn't mind the nag in game then it shouldn't be an issue. I wouldn't personally run any mods that nagged me to register in game - IN GAME is my time to escape. What this takes away though is the potential for donate buttons on static panels of the config screens, etc... AddonSetup->About->Click to Donate. That I'm all behind - as long as the addons dont spam chat channels this affects blizzard in absolutely NO fashion at all.
What a lot of you seem to be missing is the point that WoW is a game. With a very limited life-span in the terms of "OS functionality" as you people seem to be loving for a comparision.
Windows and WoW only have one thing in common, they need each other to run. WoW LUCKILY for us, allows the use of add-ons that make our game time better, be it for raiding, bosses ability, etc...
They don't HAVE to, as has been proven by many other games telling people to play within their rules.
The problem here is people are making money OFF of BLIZZARD'S game/programming language. Yes people deserve recognition for said add-ons, but to ask for money to use them(outside of allowing a donation button on their webpage) is bullshit. Half the time the addons in question are absolute garbage anyways and tend to automate things in a way that blizzard never intended or wanted. It's the SAME as asking for money for a botting program, or asking for money for gold in game, it is all on the same principle. Which is why I think this new add-on set up for them is due to the whole botting craze and the law suit that only just closed up not to long ago. You can't say "ohh well you can do this for money, buuuut this is okay for money" that's hypocritical, and the entire reason they even had a place in that law suit was because of the money side of things.
There's no problem here, if people don't want to make an add-on full time anymore, good, go get a friggen job and do it for your own personal use. Will I miss some of the add-ons, no, other smarter people will take their place... That's the beauty of open-source.