Has Warden Gone Too Far? I think so. Warden = Rootkit

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Originally Posted by Vyndree

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Originally Posted by thinus

So you read the ToS/EULA every single patch?

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I do, actually. Yes.

You know, I like to know what's in the documents I'm legally signing.

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Originally Posted by thinus

And you get to mindlessly grind them every day, yay!

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I don't find it mindless.

I mean, it's a subject of opinion. I like to listen to audiobooks while I "mindlessly" grind. Or maybe talk to Suvega. Or maybe other friends on Vent. Or maybe watch a little TV.

I'm sure some people consider hopscotch to be mindless.
Or boxing.
Or playing catch.
Or mathematics.
Or watching TV.
Or knitting.
Or reading a book.
Or quantum physics.
Or daydreaming.
Or drawing.
Or breathing.

I mean, it's a matter of opinion. Some people like certain things, some people don't. I don't like playing first person shooters. Maybe it's because it's mindlessly boring to shoot anything that moves. Maybe because I have bad hand eye coordination. My solution? I don't play FPS games. I don't buy them, I don't click the "I accept" on the EULA/TOU for FPS games, I don't install them on my computer.

The fact is, you clicked "I agree". You knew you SHOULD read the TOU/EULA. In fact, you were AGREEING that you understood, read, and agreed to it. You didn't. You lied. In a contract. Now you want protection? Because a bot developer found out that he can't PREDICT what warden is doing anymore?

I mean, Warden was just as transparent when you signed the agreement as it is now. In the terms of use, Blizz noted that they can change Warden at any time. You clicked "I agree" to that EULA/TOU. Now, Blizzard decided that they're going to change Warden dynamically. You can still see what it pokes around in after it pokes around, same as before. Only this time, botters can't predict where they're going to poke around based on a distinct pattern.

Just because 9 million people decide that jumping off a bridge is a good idea doesn't mean you should too. You don't even have facts to support that 9 million people don't read the EULA/TOU. You're just assuming, because YOU are lazy, that 9 million people are also lazy.

Now, I'm not suggesting you stop BREATHING or doing other necessary "mindless" things, but I mean... You have CHOICES here. There are plenty of MMO's and other hobbies that don't use warden -- maybe one of them will be mentally engaging to you. In fact, dual-boxing.com isn't wow-dual-boxing.com. Try a new game. Get out a little.

I mean, if you do consider WoW to be "mindless", I suggest you find another hobby. This one seems a bit too negatively addictive for your personality. Unless, of course, you enjoy masochism.

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Nice rant trying to psycho analyze me and gg at attacking me personally /golfclap.

I brought up the whole progress through repitition issue as the source of *why* gold farming, gold selling and botting exists in the first place and that it would be more beneficial to treat the disease and not the symptoms. Especially when treating those symptoms involve spyware.

I have also stated that I am not overly concerned with Warden "stealing" anything from my machine. I am however concerned with the principle and the precedent that it is ok to use spyware as part of a game. Where are the lines drawn?

And I profusely apologize for not studiously reading the EULA every patch because I want to be entertained and not swamped in a morass of legaleze.

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Nice rant trying to psycho analyze me and gg at attacking me personally /golfclap.

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I'm not sure where you think I'm personally attacking you, I'm honestly concerned about your well being. This sort of thing does not look healthy in your case.

If you're honestly not addicted, excuse me for caring.

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I brought up the whole progress through repitition issue as the source of *why* gold farming, gold selling and botting exists in the first place and that it would be more beneficial to treat the disease and not the symptoms. Especially when treating those symptoms involve spyware.

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So the fault of breaking a legal contract is due to the product and not the person? I personally don't agree with this sentiment, but that's your opinion.

Clearly, people are continuing to play this repetitive game. Either they find it fun, or they're addicted. Blizzard's subscription strategy seems to be working.

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I have also stated that I am not overly concerned with Warden "stealing" anything from my machine. I am however concerned with the principle and the precedent that it is ok to use spyware as part of a game. Where are the lines drawn?

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In the ToU/EULA. But you keep forgetting to read it. If enough people shared your sentiment and felt uncomfortable with spyware in their game, then they wouldn't have agreed to let Blizzard do it, and Blizzard would quickly go out of business running a game without any players.

You have a right to privacy, I agree.

Have you ever read those signs in banks and other storefronts that say "This building is monitored by video surveillance?" Well, Blizzard said "This service is monitored by Warden surveillance" and you clicked "I agree" and logged into the game. It's not like they've hidden anything from you.

As it is, Warden has been around since WoW's inception. Nobody had a problem with it until the bot-programmers started spreading the rumor that Warden suddenly changed to the point that it was dangerous.

The only change made is that warden is not predictable until after it has done its scan. It has always been dynamically updateable, but now it's just less predictable as to which version is going to run. It's unpredictable because cheaters were able to detect changes and make changes to their technology to keep it out of Blizzard's sight while they stole Blizzard's intellectual property.

It seems like the only victim here is Blizzard. What changed so much in this latest Warden change that has everyone up in arms?

Absolutely nothing.

Paranoia just spreads faster than wildfire.

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And I profusely apologize for not studiously reading the EULA every patch because I want to be entertained and not swamped in a morass of legaleze.

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If you were as concerned about protecting your legal rights as you are seem to be in these posts, I'd highly advise you read these.
However, it's also your choice if you decide to lie about reading these documents when you click "I agree" just because you're "too busy"...

I mean, you don't seem "too busy" to read through and reply to all these posts and form a opinion on your legal rights being stepped on without ever having read the legal documents you signed.

Anyway, I'm off for now to go do the "mindless grinding" that I find fun. I think I've made my point, and I won't spam you guys further. ;)

Ta, ta.

There's a very famous poem by Martin Niemöller that goes:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.


Now I'm not suggesting that Blizzard is coming to take you away, rather that we need to keep a close eye on Blizzard when they start making undocumented changes about what is being installed on our PC's.
You may be ok with what Warden is doing now, but you cannot deny Blizzard could potentially gather other information from your PC than just what processes you are running. It's also reasonable to say that Blizzard will only ever act in Blizzard's (Vivendi's) best interests and no-one elses - it is naive to think otherwise.

Personally I would be happy if they just came out and issued a statement saying that this new version of warden is doing nothing other than searching for botting programs (and I'm not talking about the one from 2005).

Blizzard's ToS/EULA's are legally binding however (at least in Australia) certain implied rights always exist and cannot be excluded, restricted or modified. Think of it like signing a lease on an apartment you're renting. Just becuase you don't own the apartment doesnt give the landlord the right to come over any time and start rifling through your possessions. They are however allowed to come and inspect the apartment and make sure it's being used in the manner it's supposed to be...

Cheers,
Stealthy

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Originally Posted by Vyndree

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Nice rant trying to psycho analyze me and gg at attacking me personally /golfclap.

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I'm not sure where you think I'm personally attacking you, I'm honestly concerned about your well being. This sort of thing does not look healthy in your case.

If you're honestly not addicted, excuse me for caring.

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No, I am not addicted. I have stated before that I have played characters to end game twice and I've quit twice because of the excessive treadmilling.

I only signed up again recently to play with friends and to multi-box. The play with friends part I do more from a companionship point of view. Honestly, it could have been any game. The multi-boxing I am doing to entertain myself and for the challenge because without it I really don't get enough entertainment out of WoW to keep playing it.

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I brought up the whole progress through repitition issue as the source of *why* gold farming, gold selling and botting exists in the first place and that it would be more beneficial to treat the disease and not the symptoms. Especially when treating those symptoms involve spyware.

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So the fault of breaking a legal contract is due to the product and not the person? I personally don't agree with this sentiment, but that's your opinion.

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How do you get from what I said to what you said?

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Clearly, people are continuing to play this repetitive game. Either they find it fun, or they're addicted. Blizzard's subscription strategy seems to be working.

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I clearly struck a nerve.

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I have also stated that I am not overly concerned with Warden "stealing" anything from my machine. I am however concerned with the principle and the precedent that it is ok to use spyware as part of a game. Where are the lines drawn?

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In the ToU/EULA. But you keep forgetting to read it. If enough people shared your sentiment and felt uncomfortable with spyware in their game, then they wouldn't have agreed to let Blizzard do it, and Blizzard would quickly go out of business running a game without any players.

You have a right to privacy, I agree.

Have you ever read those signs in banks and other storefronts that say "This building is monitored by video surveillance?" Well, Blizzard said "This service is monitored by Warden surveillance" and you clicked "I agree" and logged into the game. It's not like they've hidden anything from you.

As it is, Warden has been around since WoW's inception. Nobody had a problem with it until the bot-programmers started spreading the rumor that Warden suddenly changed to the point that it was dangerous.

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If I recall correctly Warden did not form part of WoW until much much later and when it did become part of WoW there was a lot of discussion around it and I have always had a problem with any kind of spyware on my system.

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The only change made is that warden is not predictable until after it has done its scan. It has always been dynamically updateable, but now it's just less predictable as to which version is going to run. It's unpredictable because cheaters were able to detect changes and make changes to their technology to keep it out of Blizzard's sight while they stole Blizzard's intellectual property.

It seems like the only victim here is Blizzard. What changed so much in this latest Warden change that has everyone up in arms?

Absolutely nothing.

Paranoia just spreads faster than wildfire.

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I really don't see anyone up in arms except maybe the bot writer who wrote the original heavily biased article. Biased as the article was it still touched on very real privacy issues which I happen to partly agree with.

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And I profusely apologize for not studiously reading the EULA every patch because I want to be entertained and not swamped in a morass of legaleze.

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If you were as concerned about protecting your legal rights as you are seem to be in these posts, I'd highly advise you read these.
However, it's also your choice if you decide to lie about reading these documents when you click "I agree" just because you're "too busy"...

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I would prefer to continue being able to play games without having to worry about spyware on my system. From a moral stand point I have a problem with my television going through my underwear drawer looking for hidden cameras.

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I mean, you don't seem "too busy" to read through and reply to all these posts and form a opinion on your legal rights being stepped on without ever having read the legal documents you signed.

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"Too busy" is your interpretation, I never said that.

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Anyway, I'm off for now to go do the "mindless grinding" that I find fun. I think I've made my point, and I won't spam you guys further. ;)

Ta, ta.

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You do your daily quests semi-afk while watching tv or whatever else you mentioned earlier. Sounds like buckets of fun. I would be more concerned with my own addiction than with that of other people if I were you.

Fun fact:

I don't remember the exact setting or which program this regarded, however a certain developer though it'd be interesting to see how many people actually read the ToS which was related to their program. Somewhere in the ToS they put a small notice, saying something similar to "Call this number and recieve 1 000 dollars".

Out of 50 000, or so, sold copies, one consumer called and recieved the money.

As for the EULA, ToS and ToA, which I still say should be questioned wether they're legally binding or not, seeing as they're changed multiple times after you've paid for x ammount of gametime (wether or not it's stated in the EULA and/or ToS and/or ToA that they can be). Again, I'd love to see it tried in a courtroom.

Sure, you can terminate your subscription, however they still changed a legally binding (or is it? :P) contract which you signed wihtout your approval/you had no say in the change. It's not about wether or not the changes are acceptable or not, it's just the fact that there was made changes that you weren't aware of and/or changes that you had no say in.

As for Warden, I don't mind it at all, I like it when Blizzard are trying to boot the cheaters, the botters and the botting farmers. I don't want to wait another 20 mintues for the elementals to spawn, just because some twat has 10 accounts running server wide farming each and every mote he comes across, using bots.

So what's the point of my posts? I just like debates :wink:

But its ok for a non botter twat to come across with 10 accounts and farm motes?

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Originally Posted by Xzin

But its ok for a non botter twat to come across with 10 accounts and farm motes?

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Yes, seeing as he's actually doing the work and not eating food watching Scrubs /rofl-ing at the whispers he sees when he turns his head every 30 min just to make sure his bot hasn't buggered.

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they still changed a legally binding (or is it? ) contract which you signed wihtout your approval/you had no say in the change. It's not about wether or not the changes are acceptable or not, it's just the fact that there was made changes that you weren't aware of and/or changes that you had no say in.

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Every time they change the EULA (and often when there's a client patch with no EULA changes!!) you have to re-click on that "I AGREE" button. That IS your approval of the agreement in its entirety.

In reality, I doubt many people bother reading it.

I certainly don't because I work on the basis of common sense rather than what I consider to be minutiae, but that doesn't change the fact that I have quite clearly agreed -albeit tacitly - to whatever's written there.

I dread to think how long I'd stand at the Hertz counter next time I pick up an airport rental if I was to read the entire A4, small print, agreement before I drove off :shock:

The issue of whether a software EULA agreement is enforceable or not is a long subject of debate with quite a few documented test cases and mixed results.

Perhaps the most relevant such case was between Black Snow (one of the first professional gold farming outfits, based in California / Mexico) and Mythic, where the EULA for their online game Dark Age of Camelot was held to be entirely enforceable.

That was in 2003, so the EULA enforceability discussion is far from new and although perhaps Warden does something different, the discussion as to whether what it does is acceptable or not is quite distinct from the discussion of whether the EULA we all agreed to (and continue to agree to) is enforceable.

I am ill-equipped to have a legal discussion on such matters, but my personal opnion is that people simply should not agree to something they don't actually agree with.

Agreeing to something in the hope that you'll get away with breaking the agreement if push comes to shove just strikes me as bizarre and in the broader context perhaps says more about the person than the Agreement.

I've enjoyed reading the debate here, and my views are unchanged. I want the game as cheat-free as possible. I suspect Blizzard do too. I choose to believe that Warden exists entirely to achieve this (because that's what common sense tells me) and I'm more than happy to have them sending encrypted information from my machine to their servers.

If I wasn't, or if I found the game so dull that I felt the need to entirely automate something, then I simply wouldn't keep playing :)

Kudos to everyone who's put so much effort into expressing their opinions here - especially Vyndree, who's views are so closely aligned with my own, but was clearly willing to put more time into expressing them than I - but let's not make this a divisive issue for this particular community.

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Originally Posted by Otlecs

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they still changed a legally binding (or is it? ) contract which you signed wihtout your approval/you had no say in the change. It's not about wether or not the changes are acceptable or not, it's just the fact that there was made changes that you weren't aware of and/or changes that you had no say in.

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Every time they change the EULA (and often when there's a client patch with no EULA changes!!) you have to re-click on that "I AGREE" button. That IS your approval of the agreement in its entirety.

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This is exactly what I was trying to explain, so let me simplify it a bit, just to make my point clearer:

You buy something which you pay a fixed ammount of money for.

Buy buying the product, you automaticly get a certain set of rights. If the product is not up to the standards you belived it to be in/it's incomplete/you cannot use it due to conditions presented to you at a later given time, you have the right to return it

You pay a certain ammount of money a month to use the product.

Now, the question I'm raising is, if these conditions change after you've paid for the use of the product for x ammount of months, then what sort of compasation are you entitled to? Money back for the product? For all of the subscribtion-time?

So IF Blizzard were to change the EULA into some sort of horror script, what would you be entitled to?

And seeing as it's not always changed and you still have to accept it, if you then accepting beliveing no changes were made (to the full extent of your knowledge), then are you entitleded to any form of compasation?

And quite frankly, the gold-farming case and a case such as I'm describing above are different in quite a few ways and would most likely not be treated the same way.