Looks like they nerfed holy paladin in a hurry.
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1...-paladin-nerfs
Is it still a good choice for the DKs ? or simply take bloodlust + tremor for pew pew.
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Looks like they nerfed holy paladin in a hurry.
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1...-paladin-nerfs
Is it still a good choice for the DKs ? or simply take bloodlust + tremor for pew pew.
I rarely use Light of Dawn. This has little effect on the team as a whole as far as healing goes.
As to other healers... I'm still sold on Paladin if only for Bubble. It makes such a huge difference in so many fights. It's just crazy.
Without CC in heroics, I don't think we will go anywhere as 1xblood3xfrost unless you way way out gear the content. Gonna OOM way too fast with the Paladin, or any healer for that matter. Running your DK's as blood eases the pressure on the paladin when you cannot CC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ualaa
Just as an FYI, I'm leveling a Priest right now with my wife. This may or may not take over for my Paladin--I want an all-Worgen team :)
Aren't you horde? ;pQuote:
Originally Posted by Mosg2
I managed to get clique/custom grid working. I just need to join a BG now and see if it is actually working ;p
Yes I'm Horde, but... Worgen are so awesome!
What priority are you using for necrotic strike? Did you push it up higher than frost? Currently I just swapped plague with necrotic but I'm wondering if I shouldn't swap to necrotic above frost strike.
Ran some rated BG's tonight. Holy Paladin is definitely the weak link atm. It is a combination of healing being pretty terrible in BG's atm, and me not being used to running the Paladin in PvP as the healbot. I am strongly considering switching the Paladin to Prot and healing off of WoG. Less healing throughput, but more reliable healing and you will be more engaged directly in the fighting I feel.
However, even with me fumbling through my binds, and more often than not getting off one or two heals before my paladin got blown up, the opposing side usually had to commit a minimum of 7 people to deal with me, and usually more.
Unfortunately EoTS is a bit of a nightmare with respawning, and if your guys die even a few feet apart you might end up with part of your group else where.
Quote:
Originally Posted by remanz
TBH, in my case light of dawn was THE spell to use for holy power, but seems it was to good to be true :(
i'll feel the changes i think
Ok, so I made the switch on my Pali to Prot. I like it WAY more. I am adding more DPS, my pali is much, much more difficult to focus and kill, and I feel like by wearing stam/int gear, I am still able to heal moderately well in a crunch on for my DK's and my Paladin. WoG is pretty nice too.
I've been running Ruins of Gilneas and so far it's been pretty much a total faceroll, literally. I am still getting used to my cooldowns on my DK's so when the shit hits the fan, and by shit I mean allies and by fan, I mean me, I just mash all my cool downs and keep smashing. I usually ride straight for the lighthouse now, I think that is the one right in front of the ally GY.
Once there, I engage, and usually most of their team is there. What happens next is me rolling their team be it 6 or 7 people. About the time 5 or 6 die, those who died have respawned and I will eventually go down to a 3rd res group. However if my team mates are competent, they have capped 2 and are pushing on 3 in time to meet me there and then the three cap is on.
I don't like the passive healbot mode with the Paladin. I switched to Prot and it is working pretty well for me. I've made a DPS priority macro just like the DK one Mosg2 setup.Quote:
Originally Posted by remanz
Now, if I am running with a pocket healer, I think Shaman might be the best bet. About the only thing that bothers me is fear bombing and tremor will be lovely to deal with that. Holy pali might be better able to survive, but I think I can keep any melee off the Shaman so all it would need to worry about is potential range DPS. With BL + Tremor ya, I think I'd love me a pocket shaman healer.
Prot is an interesting idea.
It adds to the attack, and is rather hard to down, can still bubble etc.
A good toon to lead the team with; DK's going IWT/Priority Macro spam.
You still bring some healing to the team.
Decurse is weaker, but the DK's are immune (via abilities) to a lot of crap.
I'll try Prot, and see how it goes (DK's just hit 80th).
For the healing.. I'd think Pally is the best choice at the moment.
But once Resilience/Mitigation catch up to damage...
Disc = Bubble popping, decent heal throughput, some mitigation, strong group heals, decurses, AoE decurse.
Shammy = Heroism, Tremor, Resistance via Healing Stream, Self Rez, Earth Shield.
Pally = Heal throughput, Bubble, Resistance Aura
Druid = HoT and forget, MotW, Thorns vs Melee, Cyclone/Root, Stealth until heals needed.
After playing some rated BG's and doing some Arenas I'm even more sold that the Paladin is the best healer. Bubble, HoP, Freedom, resist aura etc... These are all things that are great but really the Bubble breaks it. Bubble is insane.
Has anyone played around with dropping HB for obliterate and using hungering cold on round robin?
Right now I have my DPS HB macro setup on R, considering making a DPS oblit macro on T. It will allow me to fluidly switch between the two for those situations where surgical precision is better than the HB blunt instrument.
However rolling into water works on ruins of gilneas late, using blood tap, and firing off 3 HB's then using empower rune weapon to fire off 2 more is pretty hilarious ;p
hungering cold is only useful if you havent used a single HB, because HB should be applying frost fever, and if you HC a group, they get broken by the frost fever.
OB is a nice single-target idea, though, but it is rather more costly, and perhaps not worth the alternatives in most situations. Also, you would need to glyph it to be most effective,. and i cant see dropping any of the glyphs for it
Right, but that CC is pretty rowdy. I think it is definitely an alternative, even if only to supplement your style. In Arena's I think it could be quite handy on some maps that are more open. Locking down a healer for 6 seconds or so means whoever you are blowing up is going to die.
I've only done 2 5v5's with my group lost both but they were learning experiences. The second run, I picked druid out of a druid/priest healing combo and when my paladin went down, priest was oom and druid alone cannot heal through the DPS. This took maybe 10-15 seconds.
I think the problem with making any plans involving Hungering Cold in an arena setting is that it's just too easy to avoid it. When you see 4 DK's you know what's coming. All of the extra steps you have to take in order to make it work against another team are, in my opinion, not worth the stress. If you want CC, setup a Strangulatex4 on arenatarget1-4 and then go to town.
To be completely honest, this team is even more powerful than I expected it to be. The damage output, the healing capabilities, all of it--Insane. I'm considering making a more PvP focused thread for this team and explaining what I've changed post-Cata and what I've tried etc. Unfortunately any video making is going to cut into Zin'Rokh farming time :) I'll keep this thread updated as best I can.
On another note: Void and myself transferred to Kil'Jaeden Alliance and are mopping up with Legion of Boom. If you look at either Void's or my stream you can see the carnage--Mokoi Frapsed his end and should be putting it together sometime in the next week.
I use Hungering Cold more as an interrupt/distraction than a holding CC in PvP. I don't think the damage of frost fever breaks it either, it is only damage other than diseases that break it.
The main reason not to use oblit IMO is that you miss out on your necrotic strikes. Even if you are doing more damage with oblit vs NS/Icy touch, the psychological advantage you get with the heal debuff from NS is too good to pass up.
So for PvP single target attacks I would look more at Icy touch/NS instead of obliterate. Come to think of it what sort of damage does glyphed chains of ice do?
I'm not sold on this "psychological advantage" you guys are referring to for necrotic strike vs Obliterate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noids
Running Frost DK + 4 Rets, the moderate damage alone causes a double healer team to be completely oom after 30 seconds or less (time goes by in a weird way in arena :p ) I have my 1 DK use Obliterate as a priority, with HB only saved for ranged snare, or ranged damage.
Basically, if you are putting enough pressure on the target from using your OB, you shoudn't be running into an issue of Necrotic Strike really kicking in. The healers will already be using as effective (and inefficient) heals as possible from seeing 4 DK's mauling a target.
4dk + healer better than 4 ret 1 dk in arena at 2200+
you could have some fun vs ungeared teams early in the season with 4 ret 1 dk but don't expect to get 2200+
i love the 4 dk comp and i'm leveling it up now
@BrothelMeister:
Necrotic Strike takes overall more healing to repair than if we used the Unholy runes for OB or some such--Not to mention the whole getting-diseases-on-target stuff. The joy of it is that the DK's damage even without NS is enough to wreck people.
And I think the psychological point is a good one. I find that the other teams healer(s) *MUST* always be casting the fast inefficient heal in order to A) heal the damage and B) wear down the NS stacks. It means that when you do a Strangulatex4@arenatarget1-4 you win. I'm finding healers going OOM in less than 20 seconds.
@Kromtor:
I got your PM but I'm working 16 hour days for the next two days :) Tomorrow night maybe I'm going to do another Manifesto-type thing and hopefully comment on the issues you brought up.
@All:
This team is the balls.
Mosg2: This thread, and your enthusiasm for this team in general, have me leveling a brand new team that I'm really excited about. Also, I really appreciate how open you and everyone else have been with talking through all the setup details of how to make this team work.
@all:
I did some testing on the target dummies tonight and found what I feel are some pretty conclusive results about specs:
1. Unholy single-target is about 6800-7k dps. I was able to get a really good mash button going that would reapply new diseases when I get a new target but otherwise would Scourge Strike and Festering Strike. The DPS spiked to 8k-8300 dps once the pets went enraged but that's not something you're going to see often in BG's and arenas I think.
2. Frost single-target was about 6k-6200 dps. I was able to fine-tune my dps setup and get a great mash button going that was equivalent to hand-running one of them as Frost. This however does NOT take into account the prevented healing from Necrotic Strike. Each NS I do is 6800 healing prevented. I get AT LEAST two per 10 second rotation, usually 3 based due to random rune resets from Frost Strikes. That makes another 13.5-20k "damage" per 10 seconds. Divide that down and you're basically doing 7.5k-8.5k dps on the Frost DK's to a target that's getting healing.
This is with ilevel 333 blue pvp gear and the CoC weapon against a single level 85 heroic dummy.
3. I tried out having one Blood DK/3x Frost and then one Unholy DK/3x Frost to see if the DPS went up across the board. The DPS went down with the Blood DK by a fair bit and it went down by a little bit with the Unholy DK.
4. I was able to work Hungering Cold into my spam button in such a way that I get all four of them usually in the first 15 seconds of combat but usually not all at the same time. It's insane.
5. Profit!
Pertaining to point 4, do you find you are breaking them with HB's or what? I'd be interested to see your new setup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosg2
Currently I am running HB HB HB NS NS FS BS
I was running HB HB HB FS FS NS BS before. Trying to hit that balance between frost striking and getting NS up early and often.
This is of course referring to the pseudo priority DPS macro you showed us.
Ok, the arena with the elevator is absolutely comedy gold. The other team has almost no chance. I just finished my CQ points for the week and had that one pop up twice. Here is how the second fight went.
I hit blood tap as the elevator took us to the top, I hit lichborne as we reached the top. I tabbed to the shaman in their group.
I quickly unloaded 3 HB's without moving, Shaman is at 20k HP remaining~ hit Empower Rune Weapon, hit 2 more HB's without moving. Shaman dies. I tab to the next target, a warlock running away from me. I grip him and kill him, spin around to see what is left.
Match ends. My opening 15 HB's killed 4 of their team. I almost feel bad, the whole match lasted 7 seconds maybe.
I also ran into a 5 box shaman group named Zappity or something similar. That didn't go well for the shamans, who did pretty much instantly blow up one of my DK's. Once I got into them however, arcane torrent round robin left them helpless. I wonder if Zappity is on these forums.
I've been slacking, i need to get my games in but i had stuff going on :(
My current pseudo prioritization is this (Remember the FIRST HB gets pressed on downpress so happens first 90% of the time if there's a Frost rune available):
HB / HB / FS / FS / NS / BS / HC
Yes, they break HC now and then. Yes, sometimes it goes off when nobody else is around. Yes, sometimes they all use them in the first four seconds.
Those are rare occasions.
The reason I have it in the spam button is because, to me, healing is the #1 priority for this team. You *have* to be a good healer to make this team work. Anything I can do to minimize how much effort I have to use maximizing what the DK's do is that much more effort I can spend on healing and positioning. HC in the spam button means it's erratic and really messes with the other team. In the games I played HC frequently hit 2-3 people after all my Frost runes were on CD and then my team went FS/NS happy on a single target. It was amazing.
Ok, did some target dummy testing and I retract my previous statements suround Obliterate vs NS + HB.
NS + HB does more damage, even if you don't count the debuff from healing, and the debuff from healing is about 60% the damage of the two attacks combined.
Definitely replacing OB with NS on my DK + Rets team.
I'm planning on leveling my Priest up with my DK's simple so if I want to run a dungeon daily I can and having one DK die on my is a PITA.
However I'm curious if anyone is playing this comp in arena/bg's with a priest? Was wondering how mass dispell/power word: barrier would be in these situations.
Also I've been following heaps of the justin.tv stuff and enjoying everyone in EOTS and the newer battlegrounds owning it up. Looks like great fun.
Are you guys just letting you IWT spam? Or are you using some kind of wait xx seconds? I dont see your guys run around insane circles as much as my DK's seem to do.
Slats, mosg2 has IWT wrapped into his down keypress actions in a PvP key group so that they are constantly IWT-ing. I would imagine his PvE keyset has more of a IWT once type setup.
As for priest, I think mosg2 (and others) are fans of the Paladin because of the bubble advantages. I think they are compelling, honestly. However, I am somewhat like you in that I have a Priest available to run with my fledgling DKs. There is one little thing I keep thinking about that might make the priest interesting.
Holy Spec's Spirit of Redemption. It's 15seconds of mana-free, un-interruptible healing. That's nearly double the length of time that Pally is in his bubble, and it can't be dispelled.
Now, I think the enemy team is going to probably always focus-fire your healer down if you play a priest, but it might be OK if you can have a good length of time to punish them for that effort.
Also, the cooldown on Spirit of Redemption resets, well, every time you die. This means in a BG situation, it becomes more useful if you're defending a node-- when you respawn, it's up again. :)
i still think in a perfect world you're going to want to mix DK specs for optimal DPS. think of all the time it took to tweak your frost, it'd probably take even longer to get everything working right with 2 more or 3 different spec'ed DK's at once.
that being said we don't operate under perfect settings and it very well may be that 4 frost is the way to go simply due to more simultaneous burst from all those HB's hitting at once.
i love seeing viable arena teams that are truly 5 boxed. 4+1 friend is cool, but I don't think we've had a real 5 boxer get gladiator since the Ellay days with 5 shaman - correct me if i'm wrong i've been out of it for a while.
@Boylston:
It's funny that you bring Priest up. Me, Mokoi, and Void have come to the further (further!) conclusion that Priest is just plain better. Basically, you're either playing in BG's/Arenas against scrubs in which case it doesn't matter who your healer is. Otherwise, you're playing rated BG's/Arenas against people who are capable--Which means bubble is going to get Shattering Throw'd or Mass Dispelled immediately.
Priest also brings:
Preventative healing.
Fear ward.
and most importantly...
YOU GET YOUR OWN MASS DISPEL!
Mass Dispel turns every target into a good one. Mages are my number 1 kill priority due to that stupid ring of frost... Mass Dispel fixes them just fine :)
So yeah, currently finishing Archaeology and then grinding out a Priest from 60 to 85.
I'm pretty sure mixing spec's won't maximize your DPS output. The pressure you put on other teams with just HB is ludicrous. In the elevator arena, I've killed 4 players of a team in less than 7 seconds just blowing cooldowns to keep churning out HB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromtor
That is probably close to 500k cumulative damage deal in the first 10 seconds of a fight. That is going to OOM healers :)
I've done the whole spirit of redemption thing in arena, it doesnt work. all they have to do is outrange the healer and stay teh hell away for 15 sec, and theyre safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boylston
Ellay 4 boxed shaman I thought with a 5th player healing, like the normal team 0_oQuote:
Originally Posted by Kromtor
i don't know, i knew he did that toward the end but i thought he at least did some 5 shaman in the very beginning. maybe never to gladiator though. has anyone got gladiator playing all 5 themselves with any configuration?
So I'm setting up my Rotation. I am using F as my DPS Key. I have 2 Keymaps in my Death Knight PVP Key Set that are bound to F in ISBOXER.
DPS Priority (F)
2 Step Keymap, Functions on Press OR Release, Hold Other Actions Disabled
Step 1:
- FTL Assist Me > Self
- Melee IWT > Death Knight PVP ATG
- Howling Blast > Death Knight PvP ATG (WoW Macro Action)
Step 2:
Send CTRL + 7 > DK ATG (HB ingame)
Send ALT + 7 > DK ATG (HB ingame)
Send SHIFT + 7 > DK ATG (Necrotic Strike/Plague Strike)
Send CTRL + 8 > DK ATG (Frost Strike)
Send ALT + 8 > DK ATG (Frost Strike)
Send SHIFT + 8 > DK ATG (Blood Strike)
Send CTRL + 9 > DK ATG (Hungering Cold)
Mind Freeze RR (F)
4 Step Keymap, Functions on Pressed, Hold Other Actions Disabled
Step 1: (Do not advance to next step for 2.5s)
. Mind Freeze -> Slattersa (WoW Macro Action
Step 2: (Do not advance to next step for 2.5s)
- Mind Freeze -> Slattersb (WoW Macro Action)
Step 3: (Do not advance to next step for 2.5s)
- Mind Freeze -> Slattersc (WoW Macro Action)
Step 4: (Do not advance to next step for 2.5s)
- Mind Freeze -> Slattersd (WoW Macro Action)
Can mosq2 or void or any of the others running this comp let me know if this is the way its being done now? I really like to keep stuff in ISBoxer as much as possible so I was wondering if in the DPS Keymap Step 2 if you change all the keystrokes being sent to keymap actions being sent will it still have the same kind of effect or not? Any changes I need to make to this?
What you have is exactly how I have mine set up currently. That particular combination of abilities also led to the most DPS for me on a training dummy.
I'm not familiar with isboxer at all, so neither with its 'slang'. But what you do, is that pausing / delaying keypresses?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slats
It will not advance to the next step for 2.5 seconds, so what you get is Mind Freeze as soon as they get in melee, then 2.5 seconds later you get another, then 2.5 seconds another etc etc. It's like commas in a pre-4.03 macro except it functions perfectly.