pvp and haters

You wrote you deserved verbal punishment if you caused your team to lose. If 15 mediocre gladiators meet 15 great gladiators then according to you these mediocre gladiators deserve verbal punishment.

I'm all open to being helpful and give advice to players that want it, but harassment or verbally punishment should earn you a ban.

Also there is no way for you to know if a player is a newbie trying hard or a pro slacking.
I've played with people that used demoralizing shout instead of maul because they fought it dealt more damage - the animation of the shout has the bear rising up and smashing down on opponents but it deals 0 dmg.
And also someone using volley to single target dps also thinking it dealt the most damage with dozens of arrows raining down.


BTW the examples you listed are outright whine and complaining. It helps for nothing except show the world how short a fuse you have and little patience before you must vent out frustration.

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Originally Posted by Pycno

You wrote you deserved verbal punishment if you caused your team to lose. If 15 mediocre gladiators meet 15 great gladiators then according to you these mediocre gladiators deserve verbal punishment.

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Mate i wrote that if a boxer brings more than 1 toon and plays crap he deserves to be blamed for it and hated. I did not write anywhere that it had to be verbal. Blaming someone for a loss can be done in several ways. Hate is something you can keep to yourself, though the connotation of that word might be different in our native languages.

If someone is a crappy player, he should refrain from bringing more crappy players to AB/WsG, because he screws up the game for others. He should try to improve solo first, and only box when he is confident enough he won't screw up. That has nothing to do with elitism, that is just common sense and being a decent person. The crappy boxer who think he is entitled to screw up the game for his fellow teammates is the jerk here. So your example does not make sense since it's for solo purposes, while my comments (and those of others in this thread) were aimed at boxers. Please stop taking statements out of their context.

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Originally Posted by Pycno

Also there is no way for you to know if a player is a newbie trying hard or a pro slacking.
I've played with people that used demoralizing shout instead of maul because they fought it dealt more damage - the animation of the shout has the bear rising up and smashing down on opponents but it deals 0 dmg.
And also someone using volley to single target dps also thinking it dealt the most damage with dozens of arrows raining down.

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I agree to a certain extend here, and recognize your examples. But if the player says he is a newbie, then that's a good indication for me. If a player has badge gear, and even a couple icc epics, that I don't consider him as a newbie when he pulls aggro, use the wrong spells or has no enchants whatsoever. Then they are slacking, lazy or complete wow-idiots.

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Originally Posted by Pycno

BTW the examples you listed are outright whine and complaining. It helps for nothing except show the world how short a fuse you have and little patience before you must vent out frustration.

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Well if someone told me in my first SotA that I had to attack demo's instead of players, regardless how he said it, I considered what he said and did a quick google. It improved my performance in the end.

If someone told me that I should wait till the tank has aggro before dps'ing, then I knew i was doing something wrong.

I don't see how that is venting out frustration, those our simple indications telling a player they are doing something wrong.

We might see the world totally different, and that's fine by me as long as the discussion happens in a normal way, i.e. don't put words in the mouth of someone, when he never said that.

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Originally Posted by Pycno

You wrote you deserved verbal punishment if you caused your team to lose. If 15 mediocre gladiators meet 15 great gladiators then according to you these mediocre gladiators deserve verbal punishment.

I'm all open to being helpful and give advice to players that want it, but harassment or verbally punishment should earn you a ban.

Also there is no way for you to know if a player is a newbie trying hard or a pro slacking.
I've played with people that used demoralizing shout instead of maul because they fought it dealt more damage - the animation of the shout has the bear rising up and smashing down on opponents but it deals 0 dmg.
And also someone using volley to single target dps also thinking it dealt the most damage with dozens of arrows raining down.


BTW the examples you listed are outright whine and complaining. It helps for nothing except show the world how short a fuse you have and little patience before you must vent out frustration.

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You can't quote someone arguing singually then give an example of a team effort.

If "you" cause your team to lose "you" deserve verbal punishment. (That is singular).

If 15 mediocre gladiators meet 15 great gladiators then according to you these mediocre gladiators deserve verbal punishment. (That's not singular and thus a poor example which only reflects badly upon your debating skills and argument. No offense intended there, just pointing out the flaw... "I'm all open to being helpful and give advice to players").

Now, within that team of 15 mediocre gladiators, there would be some who follow a team strat (hopefully one that generally provides positive results) and there will be a few who go 'do their own thing.' While they do have every right to do so, you have to admit that it can (and does) cause their team to lose (assuming they lose of course, because you failed to cite wether or not they actually lose to the 15 great gladiators who may or may not have been "pros slacking"). Staying in the middle all game to HK farm and ignoring the opposition flag carriers/healers will help cause (a lot) your team to lose (maybe that's why they are mediocre in the first place).

Punishment (one extreme) is helpful for providing reflection and education. If no action (the opposite extreme) is taken to correct one's behaviour, then no improvment should (usually) be expected in performance.

BTW, Zenga's last 4 examples are actually really good examples of showing what a player does wrong and how to rectify it in a not overly-aggressive manner. I don't see how you fail to see that..

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If you want to play with players of your level you can hand pick each and every member of your party or raid for dungeons and nearly all battlegrounds, this would be a good thing as decent players don't have to be harassed by elitist players that becomes angry or frustrated with a game.

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1. It's one of the reaosn we multibox
2. Decent players don;t usually get harrassed.

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Originally Posted by Pycno

Are you saying that every time you lose someone or several players on your team deserve verbal punishment for not being able or willing to outplay the enemy? And that every time you win someone on the enemies team deserve verbal punishment?

NO. Flaming eachother is unjustified, never necessary and it achieves and accomplishes nothing. It's just an excuse some players use to ventilate frustration onto others that is caused by their own addiction. If you can't enjoy the game that doesn't mean you have any right to offend everyone else.

I would love playing with you deliberately trying to lose, rather see you angry then decent players sad after your harassment. There is no way possible for you to annoy me or do anything but give me more to laugh at as I could not care less about you or your opinions.


Grats on being a bully that unprovoked offend and harass others, you must be a nice person.

Stupid people don't solve problems they blame them on somebody else, people get what they deserve in many cases and whining is stupid because it does not help - its the same people whining in all games and the problem is not in the game but in themselves.

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A loss doesn't always mean somone does something wrong. You can do everything right and still get outplayed by gear/class/strat and that isn't your fault.

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Originally Posted by valkry http://www.dual-boxing.com/images/IP...O/viewpost.gif
If you bring ANY character/s into WSG and cause a loss, you deserve the verbal punishment.

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So you meant only multiboxers, does that mean 5 individual bad players causing a loss do not deserve "verbal punishment"?

That it goes only for multiboxer?


You probably disagree with this but in my opinion anyone should be able to play the game the way they want to as long as they dont offend others or cheat. People that fail to meet this expectation should find something else to spend their time on - its not right for one unkind person to have fun at the expense of other innocent and normal behaving people.

I dont trash chat channels or harass normal players, but Im no saint either and I dont mind letting internet bullies know how much I disapprove of their unpleasantries. They are emotionally unstable and need to whine to let out pressure and no one besides them can change that so its a lost cause trying to change them, but at least one can stand up for the players being harassed.

The only thing required for evil to continue is for good people to do nothing about it.


We are actually both defending verbally attacking others, the difference is you defend starting verbal attacks while I defend responding to it.

http://www.sfgate.com/n/pictures/200...1/nitpick3.jpg

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Originally Posted by Pycno

... anyone should be able to play the game the way they want to as long as they dont offend others or cheat. People that fail to meet this expectation should find something else to spend their time on - its not right for one unkind person to have fun at the expense of other innocent and normal behaving people.t.

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People can play the game the way they want to, as long as they play it solo. WoW has certain mechanics that require you not to play the way you want while in group: their are roles and objectives. I'll give examples:

- the objective of a quest is to complete it, and take your reward
- the objective of an instance/raid is fight your way up to a boss and kill it
- the objective of a battleground is to win it, by capping flags, towers, and kill enemies

Thus:

- a tank should keep the mobs off the party members and thus not decide to dps instead of tanking, just like a healer is supposed to heal and not tank or dps, if you decide otherwise because you play the way you want to, you screw other people up
- if you decide to just do whatever you want in a bg, instead of trying to go for the objectives (cap flag, tower, ...) then you ignore the very basic mechanics of the game, and you screw it up for others

For both mechanics / roles there is gear, spells and stats. And for each talent spec / class there is a right (+excellent) and wrong (+terrible) way to do it. If you decide just to ignore all that and play the way you want in a group, then you screw it up for others. If others in this group tell you that you are doing something wrong (and due to that give them a worse time), the only sensible thing to do is listen to it, consider it and see how you can fill your role in that group better next time.

And as a boxer your responsibility in a group is even bigger. But I think that's been explained enough in this topic. If you want to ignore certain facts and blame others for criticizing, and rather put the focus on how they say something rather than on what they are saying, I believe this discussion is kinda pointless.

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Originally Posted by Pycno

So you meant only multiboxers, does that mean 5 individual bad players causing a loss do not deserve "verbal punishment"?

That it goes only for multiboxer?


You probably disagree with this but in my opinion anyone should be able to play the game the way they want to as long as they dont offend others or cheat. People that fail to meet this expectation should find something else to spend their time on - its not right for one unkind person to have fun at the expense of other innocent and normal behaving people.

I dont trash chat channels or harass normal players, but Im no saint either and I dont mind letting internet bullies know how much I disapprove of their unpleasantries. They are emotionally unstable and need to whine to let out pressure and no one besides them can change that so its a lost cause trying to change them, but at least one can stand up for the players being harassed.

The only thing required for evil to continue is for good people to do nothing about it.


We are actually both defending verbally attacking others, the difference is you defend starting verbal attacks while I defend responding to it.

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Nope, no where have I said I mean only multiboxers. Go through my posts and find that quote before putting words into my mouth. If 5 individual players cause (I don't automatically assume "bad" like you seem to have) a loss then they do deserve it, yes.

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Originally Posted by zenga

People can play the game the way they want to, as long as they play it solo. WoW has certain mechanics that require you not to play the way you want while in group: their are roles and objectives. I'll give examples:

- the objective of a quest is to complete it, and take your reward
- the objective of an instance/raid is fight your way up to a boss and kill it
- the objective of a battleground is to win it, by capping flags, towers, and kill enemies

Thus:

- a tank should keep the mobs off the party members and thus not decide to dps instead of tanking, just like a healer is supposed to heal and not tank or dps, if you decide otherwise because you play the way you want to, you screw other people up
- if you decide to just do whatever you want in a bg, instead of trying to go for the objectives (cap flag, tower, ...) then you ignore the very basic mechanics of the game, and you screw it up for others

For both mechanics / roles there is gear, spells and stats. And for each talent spec / class there is a right (+excellent) and wrong (+terrible) way to do it. If you decide just to ignore all that and play the way you want in a group, then you screw it up for others. If others in this group tell you that you are doing something wrong (and due to that give them a worse time), the only sensible thing to do is listen to it, consider it and see how you can fill your role in that group better next time.

And as a boxer your responsibility in a group is even bigger. But I think that's been explained enough in this topic. If you want to ignore certain facts and blame others for criticizing, and rather put the focus on how they say something rather than on what they are saying, I believe this discussion is kinda pointless.

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I see your points and while they are valid they are idealistic viewpoints. All whiners have idealistic viewpoints, I remember so well from my days of Counterstrike on public servers where people STILL TO THIS DAY complain about flashbangs (team flash), sniper rifles, camping, teamblocking and everything else - according to them its not their own fault for failing to adjust or the games fault these features are in the game but the other players fault because they overuse or abuse these features.

The idealistic viewpoint you have enables you to complain forever and in all games because there is no possible way to solve any of it.

Thus you are left with TWO options:
1. Complain about everything annoying for the rest of your gaming life and being annoying to those ufortunate enough to share your chat channels
2. Just deal with the fact that players will do things in their own ways and no amount of complaining or whining can change it. If its not possible to change why should you spend any energy on it?

Dont get me wrong, Im not really meaning its RIGHT for other players to do stupid things to counter the objectives. Im saying since you cant STOP them from doing that its wrong for you to care so much about what they do. Just let them do whatever they do because they will do it anyway - the only thing that is RIGHT for you is to have fun regardless of other people passively or actively attempting to spoil your fun.

The realistic viewpoint is more in the direction of blaming the game and not the player, if its possible to be lame then people are going to be lame because the game allows them to.
Blizzard actually knows this and thats why they implement features such as dungeon vote kick - its fully possible for a tank to go about dpsing but because the game has a vote kick feature you can expect him to do his job or just replace him. Without vote kick you would have to expect the tank and other party members to sometimes be dicks who do their best in making sure no one finishes the instance by causing wipes and pulling adds etc.

So yeah, you can fight your crusade and claim you are right because other players are doing the wrong things but I distinguish between right and wrong as being smart and stupid choices and thats why I disagree with you. Since your crusade and whining can go on forever and the players that annoy you will not change then its a wasted effort and accomplishes nothing - waste of time and just stupid to do and therefor not worth doing. It might even spoil some of your fun.
I totally agree that you should complain and whine tons on the Blizzard Suggestion Forum - that will probably help as if enough people complain there features such as Dungeon Vote Kick or Report Player AFK will be added. But whining in chat channels in game is just annoying to other players and is good for nothing..

I mean like, what are you really trying to achieve by complaining? Do you think it will help and that one day you will no longer have to complain any longer?

*curious*

valkry, I think Ive been mixing up you and zenga, Im sorry I didnt intend to shove words in your mouth.

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Originally Posted by Pycno

I see your points and while they are valid they are idealistic viewpoints. All whiners have idealistic viewpoints, ...
The idealistic viewpoint you have enables you to complain forever and in all games because there is no possible way to solve any of it.

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You define pointing out the obvious, telling someone what he is doing wrong, ... as whining and complaining. I find that pretty harsh to be honest. My perception is totally different. Of course that can be done in multiple ways, but there is also a normal way to say that (don't confuse the normal way with the examples I gave a few posts ago, that was to point out my perception of verbal harassment ).

By telling people what they are doing wrong in a normal way, my experience is that it leads more often to better group performance than to flame wars. You'd be surprised about the amount of people that have little to no BG experience and come in and have no clue what to do. Telling them they should stand on a demo as a caster and that they can't take damage that way is a good example.

Given my experience with pointing out the obvious and how most players react, I won't refrain from doing that in the future. The good amount of players that react positive to it is worth it. Not because I'm idealistic, but because it increases my winning chances. And that's not venting my frustration, I don't have any feelings when I do that. And those that tell me to stfu, sure I don't care about those, I just ignore them, not to teach them a lesson or get them frustrated, just cause I don't care. That being said, I think every other 4-5 bg's I may a comment, not like I'm defending those adhd guys who spam bg chat all the time.

You generalize things to easy/fast imo. Both the perception of whiners and their motives. Long story short: some players just point something out to increase their winning chances, nothing else.