wtf taxes

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Originally Posted by 'dbick',index.php?page=Thread&postID=184628#post18 4628

This Doesn't exactly sound like "Take from the poor to give to the rich" to me. How do people who don't pay federal income taxes deserve a tax cut? You wanna see economic stimulus? I say give the business in this country more tax cuts, reduce capital gains taxes, eliminate the "death taxes" and reduce taxes on energy. Where's Ronnie when we need him

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Yeah, I feel real bad that the millionares and billionares of the country pay a shit ton of taxes before they walk away with their 7 figure after-tax salaries. You know, especially when those people are the exact same ones who engage in predatory lending and business practices. Lets continue to reward the people who puff up the economy and then cash out and spend their depression days sunning themselves on one of their yaghts.

Of course, I'm not sure how you got in to tax cuts anyway, but its interesting you bring up those numbers. The top 1% makes 17% of the total income. The bottom 50% take home 14%. Of course, if you actually distribute that out, the top 1% makes 17% of the total income of EACH of the bottom 50% make .28%, someone in the top 1% makes 60 times more than someone in the bottom 50%, yet complain that they get stuck with just 10 times the taxes? Seems kind of silly to me.

Seriosuly, do you even know what that looks like graphed? The bottom 50% make only slightly more than 0%, at best what could be called subsitance. The top 1% earns 4 time more than the next 4% below it, 8 times as much as the 5% after that, 12 times at much as the 15% below that, and they have the nerve to complain that they shoulder a larger portion of tax burden than someone living in the bottom 50%? Cry me a river laden with the golden tears of the poor, abused top 1% who, despite paying 10 times as much as Joe Schmoe, have more money than 99% of the country will ever see. Boo hoo.

I am also a libertarian for the most part. (count to 7 now) Not exactly full on, but that's their ideals are the closest to mine.

I think a flat tax would be amazing. Completely get rid of the IRS, and have a 10-15% flat tax. Then get rid of all un-needed agencies over time, so you can reduce said tax. The federal government should be there solely for national security, and dealing with foreign nations. Basically a military and diplomacy, that's it. Let the states handle the rest.

I honestly cannot believe that all this debt is being thrown onto my shoulders (I'm 22) by people that will be living on pensions when it comes time to pay for it. The worst part is I can't really do much about it. People will go vote for whoever MTV and Hollywood tells them to. So my informed vote is rather worthless compared to the five people standing behind me at the poll that voted for Obama solely because he is black, without having the slightest idea what his campaign was. (I'm not racist by any means, but don't kid yourself that that didn't happen)

So I go out and lobby for my cause. Well my ideals aren't in line with the mass media, so it gets no coverage.

Thankfully I know that a lot more people are growing ever more pissed off, and the number grows by the day. But what can we really do?

You know the national debt never has to be paid? Its not like the government is obligating anyone to pay this stuff off. It just gets passed on and on and on, down the line, the intent being that so long as the national debt remains within a certain range of the size of the economy, it is floated and its weight shrunk from inflation. That's the idea anyway, and it more or less works when the economy is expanding. Problem is a certain SOMEONE hiked the thing up, and now that we're facing economic meltdown, the national debt gets a lot heavier.

Of course, that still has very little to do with the burden being placed on the citizenry. The government would have to default first, and then it wouldn't be able to borrow money for a while, which arguably could be a good thing, since nothing balances a gudget like a lack of funds. Only problem is its going to hurt like hell if it ever gets to that, since defecit spending would be largely curtailed, making it more difficult to spend our way out of a recession.

BigFish, you seem to have missed the fact that the income of the top isn't up for grabs. No one has the moral right to decide that a certain demographic should lose two-thirds of their income to taxes and that others should pay much less. I'm not in the group being completely raped right now, but that doesn't change the argument any. I wouldn't do the jobs these people do for the net they end up with. I just wouldn't - the effort is too great and the return is too little. What we really need to do is thank business owners and executives for not packing up shop because of the way they're treated.

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Originally Posted by 'Bigfish',index.php?page=Thread&postID=184764#post 184764

You know the national debt never has to be paid?

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That's not at all true. And I agree that W's spending spree was one of the most foolish things I've ever seen, but that's not what caused all this. Forcing banks to give loans that weren't going to be paid back for a period of years is what did this. Driving up prices of homes (and other things associated with them) with false demand is what created the bubble.

All debts have to be paid. Not paying debt is what got us here. You do understand that other people in the world own the debt of the USA and if they called it in, we'd be screwed.

Don't get me wrong, the guys at the top are at the top for a reason. I just don't buy it when people complain the people with the highest level of income have to pay the highest taxes. Both the share of tax burden and income increase exponentially as you get higher and higher to the richer portions of the populace, and to an extent I can understand the higher tax rates in so much that the richer portion of the populace utilize the regulatory aspects of the government more than the poorer. Tax laws are a complicated issue, and rarely amount a simple "cut taxes here" while raising them somewhere else. I've seen proprety taxes get cut in favor of a sales tax increase, which struck me as quite possibly the most ridiculous change in tax policy I'd ever seen in that state because it was a shift from a tax on the people who hold the express ability to pay to a fiat tax that affected everone from the bottom up.

Bottom line, the people complaining about their huge tax burden are largely doing so despite the fact that they make huge amounts of money and hold large tracts of wealth. That's fine, but pardon my lack of empathy when someone only took home 3 million dollars instead of 6.

And no, the national debt never has to be totally paid off. We've been carrying it around for centuries, and will continue to do so. Portions of it get payed off, which is soon replaced by more debt somewhere else. Its really just another form of taxation, but tied to GDP rather than actual income or transactions.

And its not like someone can just say "Time to pay up, America", both because of the terms of repayment, and the fact that if they DID try and collect it all at once, it would likely force the U.S. in to default, which means they lose all the money they invested here, and the global economy tanks even MORE.

at no time does it make sense to work 80-100 hr/weeks for years to get ahead... only to take 50-80% of your income and hand it to those people that were getting stoned instead of working or going to school.

the people that are actually making the big money will go elsewhere (like asia where taxes are like 10-15%)... and at that point, you'll see people complain there are no jobs. geee... really? you mean those 'evil rich types' that fund companies would rather keep their money and put it into companies in countries where they can hire 20 people instead of 1? they'd move their cash to a location where they get more for the money instead of more failed government programs, which are really just set up to buy votes

and yes, i have been in the room trying to raise venture capital... trying to argue for using Americans and not offshoring. it doesn't go well if the VCs know the actual numbers.

in the end, you need those people that have the cash... in order to pay for the jobs held by those without cash.

It works the other way too, with the rich hiring lobbyists and making outrageous campaign contributions. I'd think you'd also need to have some pretty clear data on voter demographics to determine the correlation of tax policy with voting trends.

But seriously, was there a point in there where you weren't offering tired rhetoric about stoners perpetually living off Uncle Sam's teet in some magical welfare state where they don't have to work? I'd like to get in on that.

[quote='Clanked',index.php?page=Thread&postID=18475 5#post184755]I think a flat tax would be amazing. Completely get rid of the IRS, and have a 10-15% flat tax. Then get rid of all un-needed agencies over time, so you can reduce said tax. The federal government should be there solely for national security, and dealing with foreign nations. Basically a military and diplomacy, that's it. Let the states handle the rest.
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This is a great idea. I would only add to it to say that it should be a sales tax (the rate would have to be determined) If you are rich you would pay more taxes because you are buying more and the poor would pay less because they are buying less. We could add in some exceptions for staples such as food and things. One of the major problems with illegal immigration is that they are here using our resources (roads, hospitals, etc) without paying into the system. A flat sales tax would ensure that illegals pay taxes like everyone else. If people want to come to the USA to work and make a better life for themselves I say open the borders and let them in as long as they share some of the tax burden. A flat sales tax would also tax your local drug dealer every time he goes out and buys that fancy home or car.

I just don't understand the class envy that is going on in this nation today. Most of those "rich evil" ceos that make huge amounts of money also run huge businesses that employ thousands of people. Think about what they could do if the government got out of the way and let them make even more money. They might employ a few thousand more people. These employees then might go out and buy new homes, new cars, make investments, buy my products or hire others. Most weathly people spend allot of money on thier lifestyles, I guess i'd rather them spend it in the free market then hand it over to the government just so Nancy Pelosi can travel in a huge private jet between California and DC. You know thay they estimate it cost us over 5 millon a year just to move Queen Pelosi back and forth? When Newt Gingrich was speaker of the house, he traveled on comercial airlines. Its just plain audacity of the governmant to think that they know better how to spend our money. They redistribute the wealth in order to fund their worthless liberal social agendas.

[font='Impact, Compacta, Chicago, sans-serif']Breaking News....[/font]

Blizzard has decided to hire a new CEO, except this time those that have WOW accounts get to vote on who gets the job. This is one of the candidates speeches:
"Dear World of Warcraft Players,
I feel your pain. In these times of economic crisis you are struggling to pay your subscription rates while these rich evil multiboxers are stomping you in the battlegrounds and stealing all your phat lewts. These evil mulitboxers not only have so much money that they can afford to pay for multiple accounts, they also have very expensive top of the line computers, the best video cards, the fastest processors and multiple widescreen monitors. Its just not fair. Ladies and gentlemen, vote for me and I will not only raise the subscritpion rates on multiboxers, I will make them pay for your accounts as well. Vote for me and you will get to play WoW for free AND I will give you a free epic set of your choosing. Those of you that have muliple accounts, i'm sorry but you are just too greedy and sometimes it is just necessary to spread the wealth around for the betterment of all. Anyone who has more then one WOW account will see their subscription rate double and then double again for any additional accounts therafter. I know this seems extreme but this is a crisis. Just think about all of the good vibes you will get for paying for everyone else. Thank you very much and don't forget to vote now and vote often."

...meanwhile all of the multiboxers say "F this" and start playing another mmo based out of Asia that not only is very multibox friendly, it has lower subscriotion rates as well. Since all of the people who actually pay to play have gone, WOW has to close its servers down and all of the "one boxers" cry and moan about those "evil mulitboxers" who were so greeedy and left.....THE END

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Originally Posted by 'dbick',index.php?page=Thread&postID=184885#post18 4885

This is a great idea. I would only add to it to say that it should be a sales tax (the rate would have to be determined) If you are rich you would pay more taxes because you are buying more and the poor would pay less because they are buying less. We could add in some exceptions for staples such as food and things. One of the major problems with illegal immigration is that they are here using our resources (roads, hospitals, etc) without paying into the system. A flat sales tax would ensure that illegals pay taxes like everyone else. If people want to come to the USA to work and make a better life for themselves I say open the borders and let them in as long as they share some of the tax burden. A flat sales tax would also tax your local drug dealer every time he goes out and buys that fancy home or car.

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Not to nit pick, but a sales tax is a larger burden on the portion of the populace that spends all their income on subsisting. Namely, up to a certain income level, people spend all their money, and past that, people have more money than they can spend, which is where venture capitalists and investment come in. Now if that's where your value judgement on where taxes should be lies, so be it, but keep in mind its a burden on consumer spending, a hefty portion of our GDP.

Personally, I'd rather see a reformat of Capital Gains Taxes, but that's just me.

Quote:

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Breaking News....

Blizzard has decided to hire a new CEO, except this time those that have WOW accounts get to vote on who gets the job. This is one of the candidates speeches:
"Dear World of Warcraft Players,
I feel your pain. In these times of economic crisis you are struggling to pay your subscription rates while these rich evil multiboxers are stomping you in the battlegrounds and stealing all your phat lewts. These evil mulitboxers not only have so much money that they can afford to pay for multiple accounts, they also have very expensive top of the line computers, the best video cards, the fastest processors and multiple widescreen monitors. Its just not fair. Ladies and gentlemen, vote for me and I will not only raise the subscritpion rates on multiboxers, I will make them pay for your accounts as well. Vote for me and you will get to play WoW for free AND I will give you a free epic set of your choosing. Those of you that have muliple accounts, i'm sorry but you are just too greedy and sometimes it is just necessary to spread the wealth around for the betterment of all. Anyone who has more then one WOW account will see their subscription rate double and then double again for any additional accounts therafter. I know this seems extreme but this is a crisis. Just think about all of the good vibes you will get for paying for everyone else. Thank you very much and don't forget to vote now and vote often."

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What a ridiculous supposition.