Mosg2's DK Manifesto

When you look at melee zerg boxing really, is there a lot of rooms for improvement on the execution ? I see we got the execution down pretty well. But it is capped.

and put it into a ratings perspective, I see it capped around 2k ratings. That is NOT bad in any sense. But that is what we have to work with. I can't imagine all those 2200 teams just suddenly forget how to play and let us zerg them down.

I say this from experience. I've played enough melee zerging. When I lose a match to a good team, I ask "is there anything I can improve on ? " and frankly, most of the cases, there is nothing I can think of. I did the best possible. The weakness of melee boxing just cannot be overcome if your opponents know them.

Still, the fulcrum is 2200.

Playing all five toons, by yourself.
You're not that far away from superior gear.

Would a separate healer push this team over the edge?

ya that's essentially what it boils down to, losing games because people know how to counter you, not due to making mistakes or not being tricky enough. thats at least how it was with the pallies. with the DK team that's a lot of dark simul action that currently probably isn't being used at all by any boxers yet, but has potential. you see someone casting a big heal you can DS them and let it go through and then have 4 of them of your own (i think it works that way, maybe there are stacking issues). or the same with a big damage cast.

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Originally Posted by Kromtor

ya that's essentially what it boils down to, losing games because people know how to counter you, not due to making mistakes or not being tricky enough. thats at least how it was with the pallies. with the DK team that's a lot of dark simul action that currently probably isn't being used at all by any boxers yet, but has potential. you see someone casting a big heal you can DS them and let it go through and then have 4 of them of your own (i think it works that way, maybe there are stacking issues). or the same with a big damage cast.

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You can use it on any mana casting spell and it applies itself to you. I've done it on pally aoe, some heals etc. They all work.

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Originally Posted by remanz

Not to be negative in this, but how to reach gladiator with a 50-60% winning ratio. What Kromtor did with DK + 4rets is as closed as it gets as I see it.

So we go 50-50 in most of the matches. That is no where near gladiator. Heck I'd be jumping up and down if we can reach 2200.

If your MMR and your real ratings meet at 1800, I think that's it. You are likely to get 100-200 more. You are not going higher than 2000.


basically, you won't all of sudden one day start winning more than you do now.

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The way to do it is to dodge ques against high rated players who can straight out beat you. Defeating lower teams give 1-2 points and it just is a GRIND simply put... you will need well over 1000 games to do it but it is mathematically possible.

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Originally Posted by Shodokan

The way to do it is to dodge ques against high rated players who can straight out beat you. Defeating lower teams give 1-2 points and it just is a GRIND simply put... you will need well over 1000 games to do it but it is mathematically possible.

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Can't argue that. I agree. if you can do that, then higher ratings are within reach. But that's not so much about the combos.

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Originally Posted by remanz

When you look at melee zerg boxing really, is there a lot of rooms for improvement on the execution ? I see we got the execution down pretty well. But it is capped.

and put it into a ratings perspective, I see it capped around 2k ratings. That is NOT bad in any sense. But that is what we have to work with. I can't imagine all those 2200 teams just suddenly forget how to play and let us zerg them down.

I say this from experience. I've played enough melee zerging. When I lose a match to a good team, I ask "is there anything I can improve on ? " and frankly, most of the cases, there is nothing I can think of. I did the best possible. The weakness of melee boxing just cannot be overcome if your opponents know them.

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Even then-

Anyone who has played with the mindless children who care about rank 1 and to a lesser degree gladiator know that there is a high school popular cool kids mentality among the good arena players.

They snipe,dogde, wintrade, level alt teams, tank mmr to friends while their mains already have glad. In my opinion no muti boxer, no matter how good will ever get glad in 5s. 5v5 is such a small pool of teams that it just wont ever happen, even on BL which is not even the highest/best/most populated BG anymore. Most all the cool kids went horde/illidan/rampage when cata came out.

If you could even get into glad range every counter would snipe you. You would have lvl 1 watchers on your server to see when you were playing the second you were in glad range towards the end of the season. They would queue and you would lose points. If you tried to sit on your rating, they would wintrade/dump mmr to their friends team and farm you when you tried to play.

I could see it in 3s just for the fact that there is a larger pool, but I think even that is almost impossible playing all by yourself.

You could pull a krush and get glad solo on each of your characters and then log them all on at the same time. huzza

With all that said, I give mad props to all the 5s boxers who play arena. Arena =/= BGs. I say if you are able to get to 2200 for the weapons, that in itself, no matter how accomplished is something to be proud of in this stupid game.

@Dark Simulacrum:
It uses your coefficients, so it's basically worthless to steal a heal or a damage spell. You want cool stuff like Ring of Frost (I got that once in IoC), Frost Nova, Death Coil, Fear, Psychic Scream etc.

@Possible Gladiator:
I have all blue PvP gear with the Conquest weapons and legs right now. I can burn through most classes in under 5 seconds. With single-target DPS going up for us post-patch I think that you're realistically going to be able to make it a 5v4 right off the bat--With immunity to CC for 7 seconds plus 4x Death Grip you'll be able to stay on the target for the entire duration.

The only bad targets for me are Hunters, Priests, Mages and Paladins. my Priest is 77 and he'll fix the Mages and Paladins. Anything else is just plain dead.

@Separate healer:
Having a separate healer would certainly let you focus more on Dark Simulacrum and Hungering Cold.

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Originally Posted by Mosg2

@Dark Simulacrum:
It uses your coefficients, so it's basically worthless to steal a heal or a damage spell. You want cool stuff like Ring of Frost (I got that once in IoC), Frost Nova, Death Coil, Fear, Psychic Scream etc.

@Possible Gladiator:
I have all blue PvP gear with the Conquest weapons and legs right now. I can burn through most classes in under 5 seconds. With single-target DPS going up for us post-patch I think that you're realistically going to be able to make it a 5v4 right off the bat--With immunity to CC for 7 seconds plus 4x Death Grip you'll be able to stay on the target for the entire duration.

The only bad targets for me are Hunters, Priests, Mages and Paladins. my Priest is 77 and he'll fix the Mages and Paladins. Anything else is just plain dead.

@Separate healer:
Having a separate healer would certainly let you focus more on Dark Simulacrum and Hungering Cold.

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Looks like someone is drinking the kool aid




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@Fat Tire:
I honestly don't understand why you're even posting in this thread. Could you possibly be constructive or helpful in some way, shape or form? Otherwise go find something else to do?

On topic:
Immunity to CC + 5 second Strangulates x4 + Leap/Gnaw x4 + Awesome pressure works. It's obviously early in the season and with the 2200 weapons not available for another two weeks or whatever 5's activity is low. I don't understand why everyone is being so negative-Nancy about it. Get your team to 85 and get them geared with at least the Conquest weapon and THEN post your thoughts. Of COURSE if you're sitting on a target with the Tol Barad weapon or the OOOO from Crucible of Carnage you're going to have a skewed perception of what this team can do.

If you were to stop using HB, other than as a ranged snare, with the 12%+ to 2h DPS it seems to me like playing 4 DK's + a pocket healer will be pretty effective with you having the ability to use hungering cold on a more proper rotation.