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Well thats settles that. Sorry if I misunderstood, I thought it was possible to make some kind of crazy argument that Blizzard could prohibit its users from using Keyclone (unless Keyclone was free) but as you say they can't then clearly they can't.Quote:
Blizzard has no right to NOT ALLOW Keyclone to charge for his service.
Yeah, I think you were arguing about KeyClone and Souca is arguing about addons.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189739#p ost189739
Charging for KeyClone = OK
Charging for Addons = NOT OK
Well Fur, I happen to be on your side of this argument, but others have stated in this thread that Blizzard can do whatever they want as you entered into a binding contract as to their EULA when you log into the game.
Well its Souca's move.
WoW also makes money off of Keyclone. Every time a new user gets Keyclone, they are getting more accounts as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Duese',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189736#post18 9736
Blizzard is already getting money from a person paying for carbonite, thus getting nothing more in return.
It moves people to the high end game faster and hooks them on the game better (they are less likely to quit if they have a higher level character).Quote:
Blizzard is already getting money from a person paying for carbonite, thus getting nothing more in return.
True. Blizzard was also making money off MDY's program too.Quote:
WoW also makes money off of Keyclone. Every time a new user gets Keyclone, they are getting more accounts as well.
Blizzard is already getting money from a person paying for carbonite, thus getting nothing more in return.
omg Fur don't smite me! I was just making a little point!
And KeyClone != <Botting Program>
Or makes them get bored because they've already done everything, so they quit.Quote:
It moves people to the high end game faster and hooks them on the game better (they are less likely to quit if they have a higher level character).
I know I've had to quote this once before when people claimed that "they didn't agree to the in-box EULA/ToU so they're absolved of following it". Probably not the same thing you're arguing, but the quotes are appropriate:Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189726#p ost189726
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html
Just because you purchase the EULA encased within the shrinkwrapped product does not mean you automagically sign yourself into the contract. You can still reject the contract and receive a full, 100% refund. So it's still your choice to accept or reject the terms.Quote:
YOU SHOULD CAREFULLY READ THE FOLLOWING WORLD OF WARCRAFT TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT (THE "TERMS OF USE" OR "AGREEMENT"). IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH ALL OF THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU MUST CLICK "REJECT." IF YOU REJECT THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER FIRST PURCHASING A LICENSE TO THE WORLD OF WARCRAFT SOFTWARE, YOU MAY CALL (800)757-7707 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE. ONCE YOU AGREE TO THE TERMS OF USE AND THE END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT, YOU WILL NO LONGER BE ELIGIBLE FOR A REFUND.
Eh that's a fairly subjective, and shallow, statement. Carbonite doesn't make everyone lvl faster. And it certainly doesn't do much for them once they are at end game.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189751#p ost189751
Well umm maybe 5 percent faster or less ... Sure helped me level faster as I am new to the game.
I dont see how you run out of things to do; there is PvP once you have beaten all the PvE ...
Ya thats a clickwrap what Blizzard is using. As you say you have to accept or reject the terms, you cannot modify them or bargain at all. Thats why its a contract of adhesion.Quote:
So it's still your choice to accept or reject the terms
Thank you for agreeing with me. Despite all your arguments on topics of everything but the point, in the end you state my point all along. Blizzard is the one that grants use of the API. They own it, therefore they can dictate it's use. If they had no legal hold over it, then they couldn't allow end users to use it anymore than I could allow someone to live in your house.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189706#p ost189706
- Souca -
LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189743#p ost189743
I'm sorry, but I just can't take you seriously anymore Sam. If you honestly think I was arguing Blizzard can do anything they want because of an EULA then it won't matter what I say since you seem come up with your own version of the posts to reply to. I cited my points, you chose to ignore them and claim victory in the end by redefining the argument so you were on the other side.
- Souca -
This is what makes Sam the ULTIMATE Troll... He can't be beaten. No matter how much evidence you throw at him, he chooses to respond with something that typically makes no sense and thinks he wins. The longer we continue to respond to him the longer he will continue to troll here. Its time to start the campaign of "DON'T FEED THE TROLLS."Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Souca',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189800#post18 9800
I think it's totally conceivable that Blizz would extend the "must be free" to any software addition; not just in game; and while we may not like it; software like keyclone does interact with the game by sending 1 key to multiple windows; etc... which isn't "normal" behavior of any PC - so Blizzard could well prohibit it whenever they want or put constraints that it should be free - I think the argument "anyone who based their business on charging for addon is a fool" next to "but keyclone is totally not the same" is not very consistant - my bet is 99.9% of keyclone licenses are used for multi boxing wow so it would a bit hard to make the case keyclone has nothing to do with wow...
Except Keyclone is not specifically an ingame WoW addon. It works outside of WoW for other games just as well. Things like questhelper and carbonite work strictly for WoW. In the case of Carbonite, they were trying to make money off of WoW.
This is similiar to the argument of where are they gonna stop next, Vent? I don't agree with this particular argument. Vent works outside of wow for many platforms and games. There is no reason for them to forbid the use of said software. They were targeting addons that fit within their "addons" folders.
Did you read any of my post ?Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Jubber',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189867#post1 89867
And that is no faster than the free addons like TomTom, Lightheaded, nQuestLog, Cartographer, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189755#p ost189755
Other than that *laughs*
I read them both. Keyclone does not make use of any Blizzard intellectual property and as such is not subject to their EULA.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Moorea',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189875#post1 89875
Keyclone and addons are two separate animals, even if they both have fur and bark. Blizzard owns the APIs addons use; Rob owns Keyclone.
Before someone comes and states the theory that Blizzard would change the EULA to prohibit use of Keyclone on a persons computer system, consider that they take a much larger risk as they have no legal basis for doing so. If they want to stop multiboxing they have a much simpler method: change the EULA/TOS to prohibit more than one account per person. They could do that, it's their game and they can change access to it. Why risk diluting their position by attempting to extend the terms of the EULA beyond their intelectual property; they'd risk more than they'd gain.
TLDR: If Bobby wants to take their toys and go home, they can; they can't take your pet dog with them though. Interpret the metaphor however you want.
- Souca -
Yes they could more directly prohibit mboxing - but if their intent is to "level the playing field" as it is claimed for add ons; that could apply to mboxing software - they could well say that mboxing is fine but you can't charge for the tools to do it - now it may be harder to defend, but I'm sure their lawyers budget is a bit bigger than keyclone's. Again I'm not saying it will happen or it's even remotely blizz's intention or in their interest - just that all the dismissive reactions are more like stuffing one's head in the sand than an actual argument - again Keyclone's usage is lot more comparable to Carbonite's than people want to admit.
They are not even close. NOT EVEN CLOSE.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Moorea',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189903#post1 89903
Keylone can use for:
WoW
LotR
Connan
EQ
notepad
Carbonite can use for:
WoW
removing free space from your HDD
Keyclose uses:
Rob magic
Carbonite uses:
Carbonite magic
WoW API
Blizzard saying that MB "tools" or software must be free is like them saying keyboard multiplexers must be free. Sounds pretty stupid doesn't it?
I have no idea how much money rob has made. I would be willing to wager that most of it has been from people playing WoW. His software still has pretty much ZERO to do with wow as far as blizzard is concerned. It is an unrealted topic.
Souca, I wish I knew you when I lived in Seattle - I would have loved to share a beer with you. Spot on dude, spot on.
yes it is past midnight local time, yes I had too much to drink. yes I have to go to work tomorrow err technically later today after I sleep some.
Keep you head in the sand; it's warm in there :-)
Wow, how is this thread even still in discussion....
Keyclone: Clearly not illegal. If you think it is, don't use it / stop boxing
/thread
I lol'dQuote:
Originally Posted by 'Caspian',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189917#post 189917
Go to work gur! :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Gurblash',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189804#pos t189804
Best ad for carbonite ever:21 days /played to level 45Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189755#p ost189755
p.s. Can we just assume that I've flamed Sam intolerably and get this thread locked please, it's gone the way of all deathwalker threads...
It's how I stay grounded. It also has the nice benefit of protecting me from falling pieces of sky ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Moorea',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189939#post1 89939
- Souca -
I did read your post. I just didn't agree. Which is why I wrote my post. Ingame, they have every right to do this. Out of game they have merits. If WoW turned off their game today, things like questhelper and carbonite would do nothing. Those addons would gain nothing. Keyclone would still be around. It still has a market. Keyclone works very well for WoW, but WoW isn't it's only use. This is why Keyclone will be ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Moorea',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189875#post1 89875
"Would" is a strong term in this situation. "Could" is a more likely term but again at that point they would be stepping outside the boundaries of their intellectual property. Their game. Which is why I used the Vent argument. Sure at any given time they could say Vent is no longer allowed for use with WoW and program warden to search for it, but they can't stop Vent from charging for their services.Quote:
I think it's totally conceivable that Blizz would extend the "must be free" to any software addition; not just in game;
I agree with the other posters, this isn't even close to the same thing as an addon. By your same logic, hardware makers of KVM switches would have to give their stuff away for free or it couldn't be used for multi-boxing. That is just not realistic. It's not even on the radar. Blizzard would ban multi-boxing outright if it were to do anything like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Moorea',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189903#post1 89903
I think it all boils down to the wording of the policy.
Lets look at Blizzards official policy...
So lets assume Blizzard decides that Linux really is the future and they don't want to support Windows or MacOS...Quote:
1) Add-ons must be free of charge.
All add-ons must be distributed free of charge. Developers may not create "premium" versions of add-ons with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on.
Now compare it to this made up crap...
Or lets take this to a hardware level...Quote:
1) Operating Systems must be free of charge.
All operating systems must be distributed free of charge. Developers may not create "premium" versions of operating systems with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an operating system, charge for services related to the operating system, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an operating system.
I'm certain every member of this community will say that the 2nd and 3rd are completely off base and Blizzard has no rights to dictate either of those.Quote:
1) Keyboards must be free of charge.
All keyboards must be distributed free of charge. Manufacturers may not create "extended" versions of keyboards with additional for-pay features, charge money to purchase a keyboard, charge for services related to the keyboard, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to aquire or access a keyboard.
Now on the other hand...And compare it to this made up crap (point of view changed for ease of demonstration)...Quote:
1) Add-ons must be free of charge.
All add-ons must be distributed free of charge. Players may not utilize "premium" versions of add-ons with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on.
Or lets take this to a hardware level...Quote:
1) Operating Systems must be Windows XP, Vista or Mac OS X.
All operating systems must be legally licensed copies of Windows XP, Vista or Mac OS X. Players may not utilize any other operating system to access the World of Warcraft Servers.
...Quote:
1) Keyboards Policy.
All keyboards must be standard 101 key Keyboards with no extended functionality. Any extended features utilized with World of Warcraft will result in the account using the Keyboard being banned.
Blizzard has no rights to tell me as a developer I cannot write a bit of LUA code and sell it after I obfuscate it. I can drycode to my hearts content using API calls that are clearly documented on the web in any fashion I want. The moment I connect to blizzards server with my obfuscated code - I am in violation of their TOS and EULA and then they can ban me if they want - or more likely simply block the addon.
That version actually accomidates what they wish to achieve quite well without squashing the Addon Authors rights.
I know many of you will say it's the same thing - but it's not. If a serial killer is lynched by a mob, it's a felony crime, if the same serial killer is brought to trial, found guilty and executed by the state, it's capitol punishment. Both end the same way, but they are drastically different paths to the same conclusion.
They can try if they like, but I think you're missing the point of why they are enforcing this. They don't want people directly profitting from software that is specifically designed to exist because of WoW. It's part of their argument of why goldselling is not allowed (real money is being exchanged for their intellectual property).Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Moorea',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189864#post1 89864
Keyclone falls into the realm of OS and hardware multiplexing, not just a WoW plugin. Blizzard would now have to explain why Keyclone must be free, even though it has uses far beyond just playing their game. I agree with the earlier comment by Talamarr that it would be akin to Blizzard saying that KVMs (with keystroke broadcasting) must now be free or banned altogether. Also, why wouldn't keyboard extensions not be banned then too, since they are also specifically designed to earn money by improving gameplay?
The comparison between in-game quest addons and Keyclone is pretty remote. Unless Keyclone included features specifically designed to work only with WoW, they really can't claim that its a WoW-specific tool.
No they don't. This isn't relevant so please stop bringing it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'zanthor',index.php?page=Thread&postID=190196#post 190196
This is dubious at best. You have no right to those APIs beyond what you are granted. How you get them is irrelevant. The only reason I'll give you dubious is that the APIs themselves may be hard to protect in the same way phrases and titles are. The fact that they are published doesn't change anything. In the end though this is irrelevant since this isn't what the statement or EULA are discussing.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'zanthor',index.php?page=Thread&postID=190196#post 190196
Yes. Also, the moment and user that has received your addon logons they may face the same actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'zanthor',index.php?page=Thread&postID=190196#post 190196
You keep refering to "Addon Author's rights" as if they are something other than a standard person's rights. The fact that they write an addon doesn't give them any special treatment. All that matters is that they have used the APIs (owned and licensed by Blizzard) in a manner in violation with the terms of the license. End of story. They have no rights as a "wow addon writer" beyond those Blizzard grants them. They still have the same rights as a person that doesn't write addons, but then again people don't have a right to violate license terms or contract law because they feel like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'zanthor',index.php?page=Thread&postID=190196#post 190196
What, no Nazis or Hitler references? If you're gonna try and make this into an inaccurate emotional argument at least go big with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'zanthor',index.php?page=Thread&postID=190196#post 190196
The EULA is, and has been, clear on the profit issue for a long time. Anyone who wrote an addon and didn't read the EULA has no one to blame but themselves for "their wasted tiem and effort" and no right "to be compensated for all their hard work". It's cut and dry.
As for Blizzard learning to goosestep and taking up the banner of National Socialism, everyone is free to their theories, but don't use it as justification as to why the issue at hand is wrong or invalid.
- Souca -
So I see we agree, but you just don't realize it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Souca',index.php?page=Thread&postID=190233#post19 0233
lol, gj.
Yes, but no where in the above do you mention using the Blizzard API. You are welcome to write "Hello World" and sell it and Blizzard has no say. You keep trying to make generic statements that are true and then expect it to justify very specific statements, like those having to do with the Blizzard API. LUA has nothing to do with the discussion; writing code has nothing to do with the discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'zanthor',index.php?page=Thread&postID=190234#post 190234
I only responded to what you wrote.
Edit:
Further on I responded to the rest of your comments, but you decided to quote a small portion to look like you'd proven some point. I broke the end of your post up and responded to it line by line.
- Souca -
It is pretty hard to take some of you seriously when you speak in such absolutes. For many of these issues there is an argument on either side. Repeatedly posting some conclusory statements does not make them the only possible interpretation, no matter how many times you do it.
-K
^THISQuote:
Originally Posted by 'dubiox',index.php?page=Thread&postID=190251#post1 90251
(as this seems to be the new "qft")
ps: I think I used enough could / would /might / not necessarily what they would/should/... in my arguments to not qualify as "absolutes" - anyway - it hasn't happened yet - so so far there is indeed no change or no impact to Keyclone - yet if I was for instance an investor in Keyclone inc, I would sure want to see the stream of revenue diversify outside of Wow players... but that'd be my money.
I can see this. For me it's the opposite. I see so many broad statements based on nothing but speculation and it becomes hard for me to think there might be any truth in there. I repeat things when people continue to ignore them and claim things that are in direct opposition. I don't think the act of repeat something makes it truth, but I would hope that people with differing opinions would at least address my points with facts or substance. I love being proven wrong, it means I got to learn something. The caveat is that I need proof or at least a convincing argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'dubiox',index.php?page=Thread&postID=190251#post1 90251
If this wasn't aimed at me, I apologize. Kind of hard to tell since it doesn't reference anyone.
Oh, and I think there have been some very good point made in this thread. For the most part I respect everyone on DB.com.
- Souca -
Repeatedly posting some conclusory allegation does not make it true. - SDW '09
Stole yur quote, fixed it up a bit, and made it mine heheh.
Just to much speculation to really argue against any position in this thread at this point.
They have banned for sale add ons, will they go further, Ill wait and see and argue at that point.
Is the EULA legal? I'll see how the Courts handle the situation and argue then.
Very true words indeed but throughout my 55 years of experience I have found that the side I take more often then not has the highest probability of being correct over time.Quote:
For many of these issues there is an argument on either side.
Especially since you take a new side with every post. Sam truly is the greatest boxer ever. He actually boxes the forums. Each post operates independently of all his others. This way he can optimize his trolling and ignore any chance for reality to intrude upon his fantasy world.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=190311#p ost190311
Sam, you the exception to my previous post. I have no respect for you. It's a shame that you get coddled on the forums; you're the worst thing to happen to them.
* braces for ban hammer *
- Souca -
How did I take a new side?
My postion has been that the EULA is of questionable legality, thus limiting Blizzards ability to enforce policies based upon the EULA (and ToS), thus Blizzard can't ban people for using keyclone simply because he charges for it.
I belive, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong, that your postion is that the EULA is legal based upon the MDY case and thus Blizzard can ban any user that violates the EULA and thus ban any user that uses any program that is used with WoW, including keyclone, IF the EULA is changed to prohibit it because it charges a fee, IF they decide to do so in the future.
Using conclusory allegation, instead of citation to facts in support of yur statements, and claiming it is debate or argument is the worst thing to happen to forums.
And everyone who posts should understand that statements such as "I have no respect for you" etc. do little to advance any argument or position put forth by the poster. That fact that you have no respect for me means that Blizzard can or cannot ban Keyclone because he charges? I really don't see a connection.
last i checked, my G15 software interacts with wow... and it wasn't free. should Blizzard be able to demand those keyboards to be free?
whether or not keyclone can be classified as an add-on is simple. run wow. click 'add-ons'. is keyclone in the list? no? then not an add-on.
wow add-ons are held within a certain folder in the wow folder hierarchy. they are written in LUA, an interpreted scripting language (wow uses a slightly tailored version of LUA). wow loads them from the drive... parses the code... then performs the actions specified within the add-on. this is not how keyclone works at all. wow.exe has no knowledge of keyclone and vice versa (the only knowledge of wow keyclone has is of the config file)
there is no wiggle room here. whether or not something is an add-on is black and white and not up for discussion. no matter how much you 'feel' it should be an add-on, it is not.
(just amazed this thread is still kicking... amazing)
--specifically noting that i am not wearing a mod hat--
as for people getting on Sam, that's just lame. he equates himself properly and does not attack anyone. please do the same.
--end of specific personal feelings--