WoW 3.1 Multibox love :) Looting on all clients

The thing with the ruling on botting is that it stops people in an official capacity, so they can't publicly distribute the stuff, charge for it, etc. All it really means though is that bot programs move from download and paid licencsing to torrents, which cuts down on the little Johny Botters who can't figure the stuff out on their own, but doesn't stop the people who know where to lookor how to fiddle with it. Bottom line, I don't think Blizz wants to throw money at individuals to try and put a total end to botting.

Arguably, the case isn't so much about botting, but protecting the distributed program from interference and profitable exploitation by 3rd party programs. Not that I see it being that major a problem for anyone currently. It really just gives them a leg to stand on the next time someone tries to release Diablo 3 Trainer and sell it for loads of cash.

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Originally Posted by 'Duese',index.php?page=Thread&postID=183138#post18 3138

In light of Blizzard's recent legal victory over an incredibly robust botting program (WoWGlider/MMOGlider), I think they are probably more inclined to release some of the lock downs they had previously on the game.

Sure, the botting programs had to jump through this hoop in order to be effective, but the bar wasn't set very high. The thing about a program is that it can be methodical. It basically puts the mouse over a standard looting area checks if the mouse changes, if it doesn't, it moves it to a different space, and so on until the mouse changes. None of that information is transmitted to blizzard, so it wasn't "detectable."

If anyone played FFXI and knew the botting programs (specifically fish-botting) and all the crap they did in that game to deter botting. Stuff like, the longer you are in the same zone fishing, the worse your catch rate becomes. The fishing guage that you had to move back and forth to "real the fish in". Most of this was just a hindrance to the real players. The botters had a new program updated and released within 24 hours that automatically zoned you out every hour and was better at catching the fish with the guage than a player could be.

Just because they can find a way doesn't mean that I think blizzard should just hand over everything they could ever want, but it does mean that no matter how hard they try, they will find a way.

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You have no idea of the crapstorm of repercussions that will follow their ruling if the 9th circuit courts do not overturn it. Bots hardly hurt wow in much of any aspect. Clearly one thing that most people dont remember, is what happened when napster was ordered to shutdown? HEllow limewire, morpheous, kazaa ect ect. It spawned more, people will not quit, they will pursue other venues, and there *wilL* be other venues. Why ? Because theres a market for it.

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Originally Posted by 'Iceorbz',index.php?page=Thread&postID=184468#post 184468

You have no idea of the crapstorm of repercussions that will follow their ruling if the 9th circuit courts do not overturn it. Bots hardly hurt wow in much of any aspect. Clearly one thing that most people dont remember, is what happened when napster was ordered to shutdown? HEllow limewire, morpheous, kazaa ect ect. It spawned more, people will not quit, they will pursue other venues, and there *wilL* be other venues. Why ? Because theres a market for it.

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The existance of a market does not justify inaction in the face of illegality. There's a market for everything, right down to the most debased and inhuman things you can think of. It doesn't mean we shouldn't stop people from engaging in said activity because people have done it before and will do it again.

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Originally Posted by 'Bigfish',index.php?page=Thread&postID=184483#post 184483

The existance of a market does not justify inaction in the face of illegality. There's a market for everything, right down to the most debased and inhuman things you can think of. It doesn't mean we shouldn't stop people from engaging in said activity because people have done it before and will do it again.

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So how about fair use laws? And other cases that have ruled that disassembling a program and leaving a copy in ram to ensure compatabilitys ect (anti virus is a big one) is a LEGAL practice. How about Apple trying to sue for people jailbreaking a iphone? Lets say you bought a program and no longer need it, but you cant do anything with it ! Because it was a "leased" copy. I think your focus is just on wow, and not the overall legal issues that are already arising due to the mdy vs. blizzard case. It will be a scary day when a Terms of Use, is now plain law. What if microsoft said no more use of fire fox or its a violation of their operating systems terms of use ? Now by downloading and browsing your breaking your terms of use, violating DMC laws, and lost your windows copy! What is really illegal about botting (and this is NOT, a discussion about terms of use botting wow is wrong by their tems of use and will get you banned. ) im talking Crimnal law. How many people do you think have ever been put in jail for hacking their xbox, or using a game genie with their Nintendo... i mean come on seriously ?? is this what we are going to let our legal systems get to?

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Originally Posted by 'Iceorbz',index.php?page=Thread&postID=184632#post 184632

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 'Bigfish',index.php?page=Thread&postID=184483#post 184483

The existance of a market does not justify inaction in the face of illegality. There's a market for everything, right down to the most debased and inhuman things you can think of. It doesn't mean we shouldn't stop people from engaging in said activity because people have done it before and will do it again.

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So how about fair use laws? And other cases that have ruled that disassembling a program and leaving a copy in ram to ensure compatabilitys ect (anti virus is a big one) is a LEGAL practice. How about Apple trying to sue for people jailbreaking a iphone? Lets say you bought a program and no longer need it, but you cant do anything with it ! Because it was a "leased" copy. I think your focus is just on wow, and not the overall legal issues that are already arising due to the mdy vs. blizzard case. It will be a scary day when a Terms of Use, is now plain law. What if microsoft said no more use of fire fox or its a violation of their operating systems terms of use ? Now by downloading and browsing your breaking your terms of use, violating DMC laws, and lost your windows copy! What is really illegal about botting (and this is NOT, a discussion about terms of use botting wow is wrong by their tems of use and will get you banned. ) im talking Crimnal law. How many people do you think have ever been put in jail for hacking their xbox, or using a game genie with their Nintendo... i mean come on seriously ?? is this what we are going to let our legal systems get to?

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Fair use deals with copyright, this is about terms of use, i.e. a service.

This is hardly the first case that has implications in the software world, the concept of intellectual property and leased software. I don't think this is the beginning of the end. It may be a landmark on the slippery slope, but it isn't the beginning or the end.

This is not a matter for criminal law, so I'm not even sure why you mention it. This is civil liability.

Have you ever stopped to read a lease? For your apartment, or perhaps a home owners agreement? Blizzard is protecting the service they provide, not the game they sell/lease to you. They are establishing control over what you can do when you "rent" time on their systems. There plenty of things I can legally do that I am prohibited from doing by the lease I signed for my apartment, but I'm not calling the ALCU about it. The building owner has a right to protect their property. Blizzard has a right to protect it's service, including the marketability of said service.

If you want to discuss this and its legal ramifications, please refrain from using scare tactics and spreading false information.

- Souca -

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Originally Posted by 'Souca',index.php?page=Thread&postID=184643#post18 4643

Fair use deals with copyright, this is about terms of use, i.e. a service.

This is hardly the first case that has implications in the software world, the concept of intellectual property and leased software. I don't think this is the beginning of the end. It may be a landmark on the slippery slope, but it isn't the beginning or the end.

This is not a matter for criminal law, so I'm not even sure why you mention it. This is civil liability.

Have you ever stopped to read a lease? For your apartment, or perhaps a home owners agreement? Blizzard is protecting the service they provide, not the game they sell/lease to you. They are establishing control over what you can do when you "rent" time on their systems. There plenty of things I can legally do that I am prohibited from doing by the lease I signed for my apartment, but I'm not calling the ALCU about it. The building owner has a right to protect their property. Blizzard has a right to protect it's service, including the marketability of said service.

If you want to discuss this and its legal ramifications, please refrain from using scare tactics and spreading false information.

- Souca -

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2 of the 3 Counts of the docket on this case are Copyright and DMCA circumvention, as well as the tort. interference
Not sure why you bring up only civil action, DMCA Violations can bear criminal penalties. Scare tactics, hardly! Apple has already filed documents to push jailbreaking of iphones to constitute a violation of DMCA. Were talking about hundreds of thousands of people that have done this does it mean we should send them all to jail for putting apps apple doesn't want on a phone *you* purchased? How about video recordings of the game, is youtube filled with illegal copies of a game just because its ok'ed with a companies owner? What if a user didn't agree to the terms of use and kept the software? Now where do we fall, is it the type of sale? Was it really a lease? What if the party purchasing was under the contractual age?

To answer your question, yes I have read a lease, in fact I'm a homeowner as well as a land-lord. If my tenant breaks contract, I can't send him to jail instantly. I have the option of evicting and taking him to court to sue, but other then that he did nothing criminal. Picking and choosing what tenants I interact with or lease to is however not up to me, legally. I'd have to have a heck of a good reason to deny someones application. Apply this to software usage, you have to have a really good reason why a program can't be taken apart to ensure compatibility.

Copyright law was not enacted so that companies can construct well written documents, and then legally enforce their business models and management through U.S. Courts based of copyright infringement.

The scary thing about the ruling is that it sets a precident for SO much more than WoW. You kind of alluded to it with the iPhone, but its so much more.

The MMOGlider guy never accepted the EULA. Even if he had, EULAs are not a legally binding contract. He went and created a piece of software without ever playing the game.
Blizzard should only legally be able to ban those that break their EULA.

If I go and create a skin for windows or an mp3 player or something. Then they release a EULA and some means of detecting if I am trying to skin their program. If I figure out a hack to get it working, I am now held legally liable according to this precident.

They are two seperate pieces of software, he should be able to code to his hearts content. How they are actually put to use, is not the fault of the coder. If you don't agree with me, think of this: Should he legally be allowed to sell his software to someone that doesn't have a WoW installation and doesn't play WoW? Yes, it will be completely worthless, but that is for the consumer to decide upon.

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Originally Posted by 'Iceorbz',index.php?page=Thread&postID=184664#post 184664

Were talking about hundreds of thousands of people that have done this does it mean we should send them all to jail for putting apps apple doesn't want on a phone *you* purchased?

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Dear god! We need to act right now! Hundreds of thousand of god fearing citizens are going to go to jail! The sky is falling, the sky is falling!

- Souca -

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Originally Posted by 'Souca',index.php?page=Thread&postID=184684#post18 4684

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 'Iceorbz',index.php?page=Thread&postID=184664#post 184664

Were talking about hundreds of thousands of people that have done this does it mean we should send them all to jail for putting apps apple doesn't want on a phone *you* purchased?

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Dear god! We need to act right now! Hundreds of thousand of god fearing citizens are going to go to jail! The sky is falling, the sky is falling!

- Souca -

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*sigh* Not going to waste my time point out things to someone with tunnel vision, our conversation here is over and is starting to derail this thread.

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Originally Posted by 'Iceorbz',index.php?page=Thread&postID=184632#post 184632

So how about fair use laws? And other cases that have ruled that disassembling a program and leaving a copy in ram to ensure compatabilitys ect (anti virus is a big one) is a LEGAL practice. How about Apple trying to sue for people jailbreaking a iphone? Lets say you bought a program and no longer need it, but you cant do anything with it ! Because it was a "leased" copy. I think your focus is just on wow, and not the overall legal issues that are already arising due to the mdy vs. blizzard case. It will be a scary day when a Terms of Use, is now plain law. What if microsoft said no more use of fire fox or its a violation of their operating systems terms of use ? Now by downloading and browsing your breaking your terms of use, violating DMC laws, and lost your windows copy! What is really illegal about botting (and this is NOT, a discussion about terms of use botting wow is wrong by their tems of use and will get you banned. ) im talking Crimnal law. How many people do you think have ever been put in jail for hacking their xbox, or using a game genie with their Nintendo... i mean come on seriously ?? is this what we are going to let our legal systems get to?

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I wasn't saying what should or should not be, I was pointing out the argument that "If Program X gets banned/subject to regulation/whatever (WoWglider, Napster), copy cats with just crop up to replace it, therefore we shouldn't have banned the original in the first place" is invalid by reductio ad absurdum. There's a market for human trafficing, and shutting down one ring means another will just pop up to replace it. By applying that same reasoning, we shouldn't bother shutting down human trafficing.

There's a plethora of reasons why you can call the decision made in this case wrong. "People will still do it anyway" isn't one of them.