Jamba Follow Strobing vs. WoW TOS

I don't think the delay thing really applies in the first place if there's no input from the user involved. One keypress, one action right? No keypresses...well, if I finish that, nearly every addon there is would be illegal. Policy towards actions which must be user-initiated and towards actions which can be taken using the API is necessarily different to some extent since they make that distinction in the first place.

While you could stretch "malicious" that far, and we've seen companies try to do similar...it's really far-fetched. At this point I feel more than confident enough to keep using it, especially since I know of no one being banned for programmatic delays in addons - which appear to be common - not even by hearsay. The intent is also only to workaround a bug in the game - random follow dropping. And if they're going to stretch "malicious" that far, nothing I do is going to be safe anyway, so I might as well not worry.

Barring any potential combination of API functions that allows for actual automation (which they seem to have thoroughly purged for the time being), or using it for things like spamming or harassment which would get you a vacation anyway...I don't see a risk. I don't think that the delays possible within the API framework are themselves automation of the negative sort, any more than running the script is in the first place. It necessarily automates the execution of that script...but that's not at all the same as the thing that gets you banned. The kind that gets you banned is the actual automation of your character such that it can play without human intervention - aka botting.

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Originally Posted by 'Vyndree',index.php?page=Thread&postID=186850#post 186850

I've posted an in-game /script that allows an ability to be looped using a timer -- I won't repost it yet again, but it exists and is very clearly a violation of the rules.

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It's no secret that you can build timed scripts in the LUA interface, If you would like to post a list of addon's you currently run I'll give you examples from them that show this timing and looping being used. I really appreciate all you do for the community Vyndree but in this case you are speaking as an authority (or at least a percieved authority) on a topic you clearly do not understand well. Your responses are simply FUD about a perfectly legal function that exists in many different UI mods around the game.

I'd post to the UI and macro forums if I could get the bloody things to authenticate me, gotta love maintainance day.

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No keypresses...well, if I finish that, nearly every addon there is would be illegal.

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Not true -- take Decursive for example. It started out as a "spam this button and I'll target the decurse targets for you" to the current grid of funny looking boxes that you MUST manually click.

The only addons I use are merely organizers of information. For example, SCT which organizes important combat text information into an overlay over my character's head. TourGuide, which tells me where to pickup/turning quests but requires that I actually perform those actions myself. DamageMeters, which sorts through combat text to find and reorganize damage information. None of these perform any actions.

Which is why, I reiterate, the key here is whether /follow, a non-GCD inducing macro action, is still an action. According to the precedent set by Decursive/Healbot et al, there are abilities which are non-GCD inducing which are still considered actions (and are, rightly, protected within the API) -- that's targeting. So then there's the twist -- IF /follow is considered an "action" in the same way, then it COULD (but is not certain to be) bannable and might (and probably should) be removed from access within the API. If not, then it is not considered an action capable of automating, and should be fine to use. In fact, I can't think of a single addon that doesn't fall into the category of "information sorters" except for.. you guessed it... jamba. Bar mods organize your buttons into layouts, but still require clicks. Bag mods sort your bags, auction mods sort the auction prices, boss mods organize combat text/timers but take no actions themselves. They all require clicks to do actions -- the question remains: is /follow considered an action?

No matter what is said by us here, NONE of us -- not me, not any of the mods or users -- can guarantee that the addon, with 100% certainty, is not considered automation. Whether a user wants to use it is up to them, and whether a user wants to verify with a GM before they use is also up to them (and I don't want to see anyone discourage a user from being able to exercise their right to ask questions, particularly to a GM/Blizzard representative).


I know I seem like a dinosaur hardware boxer who is completely opposed to change, but keep in mind it's only been about a year since we've had any sort of confirmation on out-of-game software being kosher, and through persistence we got that confirmation. If we don't ask questions and keep making assumptions, it's only a matter of time before someone oversteps the line and gets banned based on improper advice. I feel like a broken record -- but I never claimed Jamba was bannable, or that Jamba strobing was wrong -- merely that, while it couldn't be said it's not wrong -- it similarly cannot be said that it's not right. I want to make that very clear -- the OP has the right to ask questions, same as anyone, and has the right to clear and complete information and, if opinion is given, clarity that it IS just opinion.

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I really appreciate all you do for the community Vyndree but in this case you are speaking as an authority (or at least a percieved authority) on a topic you clearly do not understand well. Your responses are simply FUD about a perfectly legal function that exists in many different UI mods around the game.

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I am merely listing facts. I repeat again: I never said Jamba was bannable, nor that Jamba strobing was even WRONG.

If you'd like to refute the facts, feel free. If you want to criticize my character, now that's a different story. I am not trying to wave "the sky is falling" flag -- in fact, I'm making it very carefully clear that is exactly what I am NOT doing. I am merely saying that any confirmation of Jamba's legality is OPINION based on the notion that ALL addons are acceptable merely because the API says so. I never said that any non-acceptable addon WILL result in a ban, simply that it MAY. And, once again, I never said Jamba was one of those non-acceptable addons.

I'm the little text at the end of your vitamin bottle that says "not approved by the FDA to treat or prevent any disease". That's ALL.

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Originally Posted by 'Vyndree',index.php?page=Thread&postID=187084#post 187084

No matter what is said by us here, NONE of us -- not me, not any of the mods or users -- can guarantee that the addon, with 100% certainty, is not considered automation. Whether a user wants to use it is up to them, and whether a user wants to verify with a GM before they use is also up to them (and I don't want to see anyone discourage a user from being able to exercise their right to ask questions, particularly to a GM/Blizzard representative).

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On the other hand - that goes for any addon, since Blizzard doesn't endorse addons. I believe they explained this as the reason for the "you won't get banned for addons" blanket...it might help further if someone could find that in blue text (I can't :( ).

Keyclone's status is a HUGE anomaly...and still subject to prevarication.

As far as other uses of delays - do you recall the timer function for /say people were using to do skits? It wasn't just for /say...and **any addon** with multiple actions in sequence will have an expected execution time which could be computed - the last action being delayed by a relatively consistent amount of time. Delays, implicit or explicit, are present in any use of scripts.

The alternative to Jamba's method is to just spam /follow as fast as possible. Somehow I think they'd prefer the delay.

10 /follow
20 GOTO 10

O_o

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Originally Posted by algol',index.php?page=Thread&postID=187087#post187 087][quote='Vyndree',index.php?page=Thread&postID=18708 4#post187084]
No matter what is said by us here, [b]NONE of us -- not me, not any of the mods or users -- can guarantee that the addon, with 100% certainty, is not considered automation[/b]. Whether a user wants to use it is up to them, and whether a user wants to verify with a GM before they use is also up to them (and I[i] don't want to see anyone discourage a user from being able to exercise their right to ask questions[/i], particularly to a GM/Blizzard representative).[/quote]

On the other hand - that goes for any addon, since Blizzard doesn't endorse addons. I believe they explained this as the reason for the "you won't get banned for addons" blanket...it might help further if someone could find that in blue text (I can't :( ).[/quote]

EXACTLY. Which is why, I've always said (even in my first few posts) that it's the purview of the user to judge whether or not they feel comfortable using that addon.
[quote='Vyndree

I think the OP's concern is legitimate, and that he/she should investigate before using something that concerns them.

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Originally Posted by algol

Keyclone's status is a HUGE anomaly...and still subject to prevarication.

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http://dual-boxing.com/wiki/index.ph...tions#Keyclone

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Originally Posted by GM Malkorix

Yup, keyclone is fine.
Just make absolutely certain that you're not making more than one keypress (for the purposes of the word 'keypress' this includes a single key press AND release with no delays), or including delays between key-presses with each action.
Essentially, if you could legally create the command as a functional macro within the default user interface, then it should be okay.

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I don't see much prevarication or deviance from the truth in there. It's much more solid than the Jamba strobing issue, at least -- and it's a quotable resource rather than opinion.

AFAIK, Keyclone is the only program to receive a specific mention as "fine" by a GM, so it should be considered the exception to the rule. It's my personal opinion that the only reason it was done was because of Keyclone's history of making rule-abiding features its first priority, but... who knows. They could do it for another piece of software, I suppose. I just don't think it's likely.

EDIT: After re-reading I think you might've meant the exact same thing that I just said... in which case... I agree. ;) Keyclone's GM confirmation is unique at the moment. Sorry, I think I got snagged on "Keyclone's status" as meaning "Keyclone's legality status" rather than "Keyclone's legality statement from GM Malkorix"

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Originally Posted by algol

As far as other uses of delays - do you recall the timer function for /say people were using to do skits? It wasn't just for /say...

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Which could, where abused, still end up with a spam banstick. Again, up to the users to make sure they use, and don't abuse, the available API functionality.

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Originally Posted by 'Vyndree',index.php?page=Thread&postID=187089#post 187089

I don't see much prevarication or deviance from the truth in there.

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You don't see the part where they say it's fine and then restate the general policy on acceptable third-party programs & hardware?

Keyclone is fine only in so far as it doesn't break any rules. All Malkorix really endorses is the general idea of a software multiplexer - Keyclone has no special dispensation if someone uses it to break the rules. For that matter, even Keyclone has its delay concerns. Nothing is safe, nothing gets you away from the same anti-automation rules. But I think that if you're working within the API framework you're as safe as you can come, certainly much, much more so than if you needed third-party tools. API-based tools have the implicit endorsement of being part of the game itself - and nothing else, not even Keyclone, has that.

The only rules that remain to govern API-based addons are the same rules that govern all in-game behavior. Therefore my reasoning is as follows:

Jamba /follow doesn't do something I would get banned for if I did it manually.
Jamba /follow can be implemented using only Blizzard-released functions.
Therefore Jamba is 99.9999% likely to be legal, and would 99.9999% likely result in an official statement AGAINST it before they actually banned anyone.

Seeing as that puts me well past the probability of getting randomly permabanned for "botting" by a noob GM, I think I'm okay with it.

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Originally Posted by 'Vyndree',index.php?page=Thread&postID=186850#post 186850

There was an addon that allowed cross-faction speech. I'm not sure that anyone got banned before they "suggested" that the author remove the addon (and he/she did), but it certainly was against the ToS. I've posted an in-game /script that allows an ability to be looped using a timer -- I won't repost it yet again, but it exists and is very clearly a violation of the rules.

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Well, that got my attention. Did you post that somewhere else? I'm moderately curious how that can be scripted. Does it involve utilizing an add-on, or can it be done with the base UI? Or if you don't want to post it, could you at least explain how it worked? I mean, that's kind of an odd thing to be able to run a looped script.

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Originally Posted by algol',index.php?page=Thread&postID=187094#post187 094][quote='Vyndree',index.php?page=Thread&postID=18708 9#post187089]
I don't see much prevarication or deviance from the truth in there.[/quote]

You don't see the part where they say it's fine and then restate the general policy on acceptable third-party programs & hardware?

Keyclone is fine only in so far as it doesn't break any rules. All Malkorix really endorses is the general idea of a software multiplexer - Keyclone has no special dispensation if someone uses it to break the rules. For that matter, even Keyclone has its delay concerns. Nothing is safe, nothing gets you away from the same anti-automation rules. But I think that if you're working within the API framework you're as safe as you can come, certainly much, much more so than if you needed third-party tools. API-based tools have the implicit endorsement of being part of the game itself - and nothing else, not even Keyclone, has that.[/quote]

Malkorix said, and I quote "[color=#0000ff]Keyclone is fine[/color]". He then reiterated the idea of the software multiplexer's acceptable use, [b]which Keyclone clearly follows[/b]. Perhaps, since delays/scripts can be done with external programs (and perhaps, if it falls into this category, Jamba), he was warning that while use of Keyclone is OK, addition of a Logitech G15, Nostromo N52, or even AHK on top of Keyclone, would counteract the statement if those uses included delays.

From my (albeit external) understanding of Keyclone, Malkorix's followup second statements...
[quote][color=#0000ff]Just make absolutely certain that you're not making more than one keypress (for the purposes of the word 'keypress' this includes a single key press AND release with no delays), or including delays between key-presses with each action.
Essentially, if you could legally create the command as a functional macro within the default user interface, then it should be okay. [/color][/quote]
...do not apply to Keyclone -- there is no possible way to have Keyclone send more than one keypress with or without delays. So... where's this "obvious contention" that I've missed? Keyclone also does not store any macros, so that absolves the second statement. I still see no deviance from the truth -- I'd imagine the caveat was for future revisions of Keyclone that may, in the future or in combination with other 3rd party mods/addons/devices, include the capability for delays.

And they call [i]me[/i] nitpicky.

[quote='algol

The only rules that remain to govern API-based addons are the same rules that govern all in-game behavior. Therefore my reasoning is as follows:

Jamba /follow doesn't do something I would get banned for if I did it manually.

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But the difference here is that you're NOT doing it manually. Each follow strobe happens without the precedent of a user's keypress.

The difference here is, with the built-in /macro functionality (granted, not the API) you MUST initiate a keypress every time you want to /follow someone, same as you would with targeting or trinketing -- they don't eat GCDs, but they still require user interaction. I honestly don't see it as much of a problem, as (if you were using Jamba strobing, I'd imagine) you could just put a /follow line along with your assist macro and /follow at every keypress -- or even /stopmacro [combat] /follow CharName to emulate Jamba's follow-out-of-combat functionality.

The contention is, Jamba does automatically and on a delay what normally must be done manually. That sounds like automation if it applied to anything with similar functionality (targeting, movement, action buttons).

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Originally Posted by algol

Jamba /follow can be implemented using only Blizzard-released functions.
Therefore Jamba is 99.9999% likely to be legal, and would 99.9999% likely result in an official statement AGAINST it before they actually banned anyone.

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And 99.99999% of all statistics are made up..... Making up numbers does not make an argument strong. I'd have been more inclined to allow you your opinion if you didn't spout numbers that don't have any solid basis. You can't take the two statements you just spouted and magically apply subjective numbers on its legality pulled from nowhere. Granted, you can say "From these two statements, I feel, or it is my opinion that it is safe to use Jamba", but that's opinion.

It's like me trying to make an argument that since the game was designed for solo boxers, and that world PvP against 5 multiboxed characters is no fun, that Multiboxing is 99.9999% wrong. I can say "I feel, or it is my opinion that multiboxing is wrong", but my "percent wrongness" thesis is not supported by the statements in my argument.

Or even, more appropriately, I could argue that /follow must normally be initiated with a user action, and that no user action occurs when utilizing Jamba strobe, therefore Jamba strobing is 99.9999% wrong. I'm sure you wouldn't be happy having to argue the logical inconsistencies of that sort of deduction.

I'm not making any claims that aren't backed up with facts -- in fact, I'm making no actual claims on Jamba's legality at all, merely that the level of confidence in Jamba is misleading opinion from fact.

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Originally Posted by Bigfish

Did you post that somewhere else? I'm moderately curious how that can be scripted.

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It's hidden in a spoiler earlier in this thread.
http://dual-boxing.com/forums/index....797#post181797

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Originally Posted by 'Vyndree',index.php?page=Thread&postID=187157#post 187157

Malkorix's followup second statements...do not apply to Keyclone

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Of course they do. The reason using Keyclone doesn't get us banned is that it STILL respects those boundaries. Blizzard's approval is and always has been dependent on that - and is given to the extent it is only because it respects those boundaries.

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Originally Posted by 'Vyndree',index.php?page=Thread&postID=187157#post 187157

And 99.99999% of all statistics are made up.....

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I expect it's a great deal less than all that.

But your objection seems irrelevant since I was expressing a confidence estimate, not statistical results taken from data analysis. See the part about "my reasoning is as follows"? Yeah. At that, there are people that 100% believe God exists too. That's not made up statistics either, just an expression of their confidence in their beliefs.

I think the chance of this being a problem is very, very close to zero, that the chance of other things being a problem is much higher, and that if they start handing out bans right and left for this in spite of prior statements of policy then I have less unreliable places to spend my entertainment budget. Thanks for raising the question as it could have been valid - but in light of the content of the thread at this point, I'm very confident that it just amounts to FUD.

[quote='Vyndree',index.php?page=Thread&postID=18192 7#post181927]
Basically... P --> !O does not mean !P --> O.

[/quote]


Rational wiki explains it fairly well:

[url]http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Correlation_does_not_equal_causation[/url]

Two events can consistently correlate with each other but not have any causal relationship. An example is the relationship between reading ability and shoe size across the whole population of the [url='http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/United_States']United States[/url]. If someone performed such a survey they would find that the larger shoe sizes correlate with better reading ability, but this does not mean large feet cause good reading skills. Instead it is caused by the fact that young children have small feet and have not yet (or only recently) been taught to read