Contemplating a change to WoW over this, but if I'm reading correctly wow you have to buy the game and each expansion seperately? There's no all in one pack?
That's pretty prohibitive for a multiboxer.
Contemplating a change to WoW over this, but if I'm reading correctly wow you have to buy the game and each expansion seperately? There's no all in one pack?
That's pretty prohibitive for a multiboxer.
I agree; this whole thing has a 'don't ask don't tell' vibe to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captive2
However, it's difficult for me to rationalize playing a game that takes an at best ambiguous stance on multiboxing. Compare that to Blizzard's embracing of the multibox community, and SOE does not come off well.
Battle Chest for $36.99Quote:
Originally Posted by Milque
WotLK for $36.99
So for $78 you have all three, this is pretty standard even in the world of EQ, where they would bundle all but the current expac.
Agreed. Since they’ve taken this stance at least in writing, I can’t justify buying the expansion six times. For me, however, that’s fine; I enjoy playing the game an expansion behind the current wave anyway. That way, I have relatively empty zones, don’t bother other people over semi-contested spawns, don’t have to deal with idiots or plat farmers, and don’t have to deal with as the bugs that are endemic with new content. It also lets me save money, as you can generally buy the “new” expansion much more inexpensively if you can wait 6-12 months for it.
So hopefully they’ll just let me keep playing quietly – not PvPing, not going after highly-contested current content, and not plat farming. Just playing the game with my own happy little group of six characters enjoying the game - paying them $90 a month for the privilege.
Looking it up, at least in Massachusetts, it looks like a clear case of "unfair and deceptive practices." I could send them a demand letter threatening court (small claims....MA makes it very very easy.) and I would very likely win a judgement from what I read....However, the fact that SOE (very likely) does not physically do buisness in MA takes it out of MA courts jurisdiction. Lawsuit threats would be like pissing into the wind. I wouldn't be surprised if SOE is already aware of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenga
Legal systems have yet to catch up to the internet.
Although, I have threatened to dispute the charges with BoA as fraudulent charges....they claim it would be fraud if I did so. My guess, if I go back and quote the section of M.G.L. dealing w/ "unfair and deceptive practices" I may get further (I've had BoA side againt me on disputes before.).
Either way, SOE drops $400/hour on an attorney for a $90 claim.
...and when the judge throws it out, and then Sony turns around and sues you for "whatever they want" you go bankrupt tryying to defend yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velassra
Good plan! :rolleyes:
That is not correct, MA courts do have jurisdiction as SOE put their products into the distrubution chain with the intent that they enter markets in MA, that is all that is requiredQuote:
Originally Posted by Velassra
I would assume that a company as big as Sony has its own legal department, and probably other attorneys on retainer. Dealing with a lawsuit brought by an angry gamer is unlikely to cost them anything, as they have to keep legal staff employed anyway. And if you file a civil lawsuit you will need to prove damages, and I'm guessing that the extent of damages that you could recover would be the cost of a month's subscription. How many lawyers would agree to represent you for a cut of a $15 settlement? And how many judges would allow a $15 lawsuit to get past a summary dismissal?
(And no, don't mention class action, because the same considerations apply.)
DISCLAIMER: I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
A few reactions to afore mentioned posts:
1. If an american based company has a website that is available in belgium then they are subject to Belgian / EU law, regardless if they have a plant here or not. If they violate the law then it's their responsibility to either comply with the law or to not 'distribute' in Belgium (by means of filtering IP's for example). That is the theory at least. It's a gigantic network vs understaffed commissions.
2. Many of those big companies have flat fee per year agreements with their lawyers. So do many governmental departments here. Meaning that it doesn't really matter how small or how big the case is. Same goes for sony: if someone files a lawsuit against them, they need to set an example. It's not about the 100 contested dollars. They need to make a stand as a business.
3. There are many examples where a small individual wins vs a giga corp. There are lawyers who jump on that, who are specialized in this, ... Microsoft pops up on several occasions, as well as the Bosman ruling (where an anonymous football player changed the sports world). Myself i've been involved into a case against a major insurance company for 7 years after a car accident (they sued me), and in the end they had to change their (dont know the name in english, the small letters in the contract).
4. A normal human being shouldn't do this, but there are examples of people who can afford it who did do it. Sometimes there are even special companies/funds created to limit the consequences if it goes wrong.
5. Every country has different rules. It shouldn't be necessarily a US law suit.
So yeah in theory there is some ground. But it won't happen in reality i'm afraid. I'll never go through the trouble nor do i want stress in my life :)
I think the biggest problem most gamers have is the arrogance of such companies: you buy their products and they have the right to change it anytime. That's what most players pisses off imo.
Good lord, I was just about to start multiboxing EQ2 on the side again and then I find this thread... Bleah, guess I wont activate my five accounts.
I can't reach the official forums here at work, but it sounds like another post was started about this issue. I gather from the comments on EQ2 Flames that they're basically saying "Don't do anything stupid, or be a plat-famer. If you do either of those things, we'll find you and ban you." Reading between the lines, as several have done both here and in that thread, you could make the case that they're not going to do anything to people simply playing the game.
Here's the thread on EQ2 Flames. It's full of the profanity and obnoxiousness we've all grown to know and love about that board, so be warned.
http://www.eq2flames.com/general-gam...al-fact-3.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fursphere
Yeah, Ill just delete. Not worth the aggravation. I guess I really don't care anymore. Been playing WoW again for months. Lol.
Seems my last PM to Kiara (which, as I'm sure those who are familiar with my writing style can imagine, was as professional and to the point as was appropriate) caused the account I sent it from to be banned from sending/receiving Private Messages.
I might just have to relate my distaste from another account! (but not likely).
I don't play EQ2. And I don't PvP. But I found this thread interesting. So sorry if I write nonsense..
It sounds like they don't like the ability of multiboxers to do co-ordinated burst damage.
This is possible in a non-MB group, especially with voice comms (and without the split-attention & input disadvantages).
Personally, I think maybe the ability to co-ordinate/synchronise is the plus to a multiboxer, versus the minuses of split-attention and multiple-input. I guess players are jealous of the former (just as multiboxers enjoy it). Perhaps EQ2's business strategy is to attract these players by differentiating themselves in this way.
Personally, I am surprised a company would decide to exclude anything which adds depth and variety to their game.
WoW players would be bored if they were still fighting Ragnaros for their loot. "Variety is the spice of life." Surely WoW players enjoy their encounters with multibox PvP groups for similar reasons? (Attend for a moment to the 'silent majority' before pointing to raging forum posts.)
Further, isn't it player-generated 'content' which is the main draw for any MMO? For example: guild interaction, sharing as a group the learning/experience of encounters, PvP, or role-play. A shame, IMO, to squash this particular form of player-driven inventiveness.
:( Damn, and I just spent the holidays perfecting ISBoxer with a 3man team. TBH I have not had any hassle from anyone, but as someone has pointed out most of the <80 zones are sparsely populated so I might get some flack if I spend time levelling my trio and end up 80.
Even if this spread to WoW, I would be ok with it. The new LFG system is so fantastic that I could really care less if I cant do a whole group anymore. It would make my life in WoW easier, thats for certain.
Some EQ2 dev or GM is butt hurt? lol
Just in case anyone is still interested, I’m still 6-boxing EQ2 with ISBoxer and have had zero problems with GMs, warnings, complaints from other players, etc. I plan to continue playing this way until they tell me I can’t and ban me.
I don't box eq2, but if I did, I'd be gone. If they are trying to surreptitiously tell us it's OK, then sorry, that doesn't work. I don't want to spend a big chunk of my time to have it all lost to a GM in a bad mood.
Heck, Blizzard has made their stance on this subject crystal clear, and we still have GMs banning boxers because they don't know the company's position. Yeah, it gets resolved, but I doubt it would in EQ2. They'd just trot out the party line and call it good.
So yeah, no eq2 boxing for me.
This thought has been in the back of my mind the last few days. All the reasons I started multiboxing are quickly becoming a non-issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Multibocks
Have to totally agree with Bobgnarly - all it will take is a slight slip up on on boxers part (i.e., all jump at once, etc.) or some peeved off n00b/GM and all your work will be down the drain - be constantly looking over your shoulder wondering when the big ban hammer would fall
Not worth the effort at all - and even if you did spend the time mboxing EQ2, you'd know 100% that what you were doing is against the TOS - sure, some people can live with that - personally, I can't
Only problem is - finding it hard to get a replacement - went back to my old original playgrounds and 6 boxed DAoC for a bit (omgawd - hell no! Better left as a fond memory that one) - tossed around the idea of going way way back and 6 boxing EQ1 but won't simply because it's SOE and will having the same TOS issues as with EQ2
Sure there's WoW but still totally burnt out from my time in a raiding guild as MH - never again...can't even re-install it!
IMHO - that's the real problem with WoW - it's gotton so big it has either wiped out the majority of the existing niche mmporgs or new developers won't even try to float their mmporgs as they know they won't grab enough of a market share to last a year
Constantly scanning the upcoming beta lists looking for the next 'big thing' - few things of interest, just have to fill in the time till they go public
What are you risking by continuing to play? You said “all your work will be down the drain”. If you quit, you GUARANTEE that will happen. If you continue to play, it might happen or it might not. If you enjoy the game, I’d keep playing and hope they leave you alone.Quote:
Have to totally agree with Bobgnarly - all it will take is a slight slip up on on boxers part (i.e., all jump at once, etc.) or some peeved off n00b/GM and all your work will be down the drain - be constantly looking over your shoulder wondering when the big ban hammer would fall
Its against the law to have sex in the state I reside in out of wedlock (fornication). Till its enforced, it doesnt mean a thing.
Sure, and one day when you piss off your DA for some reason or another, he'll drag you over the legal coals because you are technically violating the law (speaking hypothetically, don't know if you personally are or not ;] ). This would almost certainly get thrown out pretty early, but the TOS violation from EQ2 probably wouldn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starbuck_Jones
There is another side I didn't mention before, which is that I don't want to support a company with stupid policies that can't differentiate between a person playing 5 characters at once and a "bot" or "gold farmer". I don't even understand how these two are the same, do gold farmers multibox their farming now? How does "one click, one action over all clients" apply to gold farmers? /confused
It all just strikes me as a group of people who are too chicken-shit to make a stance on a subject, so they keep the policy in place to satisfy the moronic masses while they wink at the multiboxers and tell us to "lay low." No thanks. I was actually very impressed when Blizzard stood their guns on this subject since it was such a powder-keg for a while. I guess SOE isn't willing to do the same.
i canceled all my accounts last month. I don't want to waste time playing when i can get banned for no good reason. Sony has a strange business model when it comes to games. On one hand they have station cash and those virtual playing cards/loot cards to bring in extra money but at the same time they allow workers to make decisions which effectively discourage, via banning and threats, existing boxing players and potential boxing players down the line. I seriously doubt any lore loving obsessed player has ever quit due to witnessing a boxed group. Anyway, regardless i don't want to play a game where i have to sneak around thinking that i might get reported and banned at any given moment.
The south has some crazy laws lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starbuck_Jones
Just by the sound of it, I am guessing that is a southern law.
Just in case anyone is interested, I’m still 6-boxing with InnerSpace and have had zero issues. No harassment from other players or GMs, no warnings, no bannings.
if blizzard decides to whine about boxers and pulls some crap I would hope hope every boxer would do what I would do, sell all my gold and chars call blizz and tell em to bite me. As much as i enjoy my downtime playing wow in the winter where i live i could give a rat's ass about giving a company my money for a product I can't use the way way I want. The only reason people cry about multiboxers is because they are either too stupid or too poor to multibox themselves. I would be rich if I had a dollar for all the ignorant kids who whisper me out of the blue and call me a fag botter and or cheater. Hell, I can do myself what 5 or 10 stupid ass kids can't do half the time. Boxing was my solution to enjoy a multi-player game wthout having to deal with the multi-dumbass aspect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ualaa
Those are pretty much my sentiments exactly.Quote:
Boxing was my solution to enjoy a multi-player game wthout having to deal with the multi-dumbass aspect.
well, this saved me the trouble of even trying EQ2
I've been informed that SOE does NOT want to ban multiboxing, even with keystrokes being broadcast. What they don't want is for multiboxers to grief other players.
If you're playing 36 (or even 6) toons in PVP and just standing there demolishing someone over and over, it ruins that person's day and that person is going to have a newfound hatred for multiboxers.
I'm told that as long as you are not using your multiboxing for nefarious purposes, and are otherwise following the rules (not botting, not selling plat/gold/whatever, etc), that you should not be banned.
SOE, like other game companies, wants to a) make money and b) have as many people as possible play, and enjoy, their game. They don't want to run a gestapo -- it's just bad business (unless you ask the RIAA). If your net effect on the previous statement is positive (i.e. you are making them more money than you are losing them), and you are not violating their eula/tos/tou/whatever, then you are a customer they want to keep. There is no other way to look at it, it is a very simple business decision.
What this all comes down to is "being a good citizen". If you put on a good show for the people you come across, they are going to look at you with curiosity and wonderment instead of disdain. Likewise, if you're just being a dick the whole time, people aren't going to like you -- that's when you start having a negative effect on the equation, and you should expect trouble (hint: instead of destroying someone over and over just because you can, destroy them once and then let them walk away the next time. maybe even wave.). Putting on a show can be done with some very simple choreography. Sorta like live machinima. In WoW sometimes when people follow me around and watch, I spread my guys out into a Flying V formation (a 2-step Key Map where 4 people move the first step, 2 people move the second step) and break into dance. The only negative thing anyone really has to say is "why do you waste so much money on this game", but it's relatively rare (my response is usually "I know people with much more expensive hobbies" -- some people spend thousands of dollars building things for fun, like vehicles. this is VERY cheap in comparison!). Most of the time they will just sit and talk for a minute or two and ask how it works, what program I use, etc.
That's not to say don't do any PVP. I do plenty of PVP myself (albeit not in EQ2). Sometimes people will actually come attack me thinking they can kill one or more of my guys before I am able to kill them. Usually they're dead wrong, with extra dead (unless they outlevel me by far, for example). Sometimes they even try it a second or third time! Sure I could chase them down for a while if I wanted to ruin their day. But what's the point of harassing some random person? It wouldn't improve the perception of multiboxers and it certainly wouldn't make the game publisher more apt to see things my way if that person complained.
I know you're not going to take me at my word when there's a post at the beginning of this thread with quotes from GMs that suggest otherwise, but SOE knows it was a mistake to suggest that they would ban every multiboxer who is using key broadcasting. Hell, I might not believe me either if I was in your position. But it's true.
So has anyone continued to multibox EQ2, using the keystroke broadcasting? Any issues with dealing with GMs or being reported?
I had always planned on coming back to EQ2 and trying to multibox, but obviously this issue would cause me to not want to.
Basically I'm just wondering how much they are enforcing this, if at all.
Kalros,
I had cancelled my accounts and took a swipe at LOTRO but have now come back to EQ2, mostly based on what people have posted in this thread.
I have yet to even get a /tell let alone be reported. I am on the Mistmoore server, FYI.
I took a short break but have resumed multiboxing. I haven't had any problems nor have I been contacted by folks in game. I only 6-box early in the mornings on weekdays, so the likelihood that I'll actually run into another player is fairly slim.
I seriously doubt SOE would do anything to a multiboxer minding their own business, especially with an expansion right around the corner.
hahaha that game must be dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Twiz
I'm still 6-boxing with InnerSpace. No warnings, no petitions (that I know of), no harassing tells. A few players ask me if I'm boxing, and I politely tell them I am. Most say "Cool - that must be fun" and go on their way. I honestly don't think they're going to do anything to people who aren't griefing or farming/selling gold. I haven't heard of a single case of a boxer being banned. Not here, not on EQ Flames - anywhere.
So if you're thinking of giving it a shot, I would go ahead and do it. I wouldn't play on a PvP server, as I think boxing may be considered more of a no-no in PvP. But I haven't even heard of any PvPer boxers being banned, so you might not have any trouble there either.
Still boxing with IS here too and no warning, no ban, nothing...
Aah I have this urge of coming back to EQ2..just not sure if I should do a full multibox or try and enjoy the people who actually play. Any idea how the population is leveling wise? I figure I have to play on the american servers to get a decent populated server?
After reading this thread I was curious as to how exactly they word their stance on multiboxing. While they never directly refer to it, they do allude to it. Here's what I found:
EVERQUEST® II USER AGREEMENT AND SOFTWARE LICENSE:
Quote:
"You may not decrypt or modify any data transmitted between client and server and you may not use, post, host or distribute macros, "bots" or other programs which would allow unattended game play or which otherwise impact game play."
This sounds intentionally vague to me. They use the words "other programs" and "impact game play" to differentiate from botting. This leaves it wide open for interpretation.
If you were to read it paraphrased, it would say:
Quote:
You may not use other programs which impact gameplay.
Presumably "other programs" refers to 3rd party programs. That's clearly their meaning in the full quote.
"Impact gameplay" is about a vague as it could possibly be. From the sound of it, they simply want to reserve the right to say that any mod/addon/3rd party program is against the rules at the discretion of their GM/CS staff. It appears to me that their "stance" on multiboxing is that they don't condone it or condemn it, but will leave it up to the individual GM; and likely give the player no recourse once the decision to ban/suspend is made. (But that's pure speculation.)
EVERQUEST® II RULES OF CONDUCT:
Quote:
"You will follow the instructions of authorized personnel while in EverQuest II or on the Official EverQuest II Forums."
That is the entire rule. They don't mention what sort of instructions they are referring to.
This leads me to further conclude that they give GMs carte blanche in gameplay-related matters; and that multiboxing, being unprotected by the language of their user agreements, may be considered an infraction of the rules by one GM and perfectly acceptable by another - and that both are considered correct as far as SOE is concerned.
They have another curiously worded rule:
To paraphrase:Quote:
"You will not create, use or provide any server emulator or other site where EverQuest II may be played, and you will not post or distribute any utilities, emulators or other software tools related to EverQuest II without the express written permission of Sony Online Entertainment."
Quote:
You will not post or distribute any utilities or other software tools related to EverQuest II.
Clearly this is referring to botting, hacking, and other cheating and/or malicious programs; but words like "utilities" and "software tools" are vague enough to include literally any 3rd party program - no matter how benign.
Under these guidelines a simple thing like a UI mod or a dps counter would be illegal. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that SOE purposely leaves these matters in the hands of their GMs. If that's the case, we're basically at the mercy of everyone - including other players. All it takes is one report in the wrong GM's queue and we're done. Of course this doesn't necessarily mean we'll be banned outright; but it certainly seems that the lack of a written rule expressly outlining what is, and is not, acceptable by multiboxers is intentional.
Further evidence of this is in the varying responses by GMs and CSR. This suggests to me that while they may know the EULA backwards and forwards, they were not given a conclusive explanation of the rules as they apply to multiboxing. I'd be curious to hear from a GM whether there is an official rule regarding non-bot multiboxing; or if it is indeed simply up to each individual GM's interpretation of the rule.
Of course this is all speculation but until SOE either makes up its mind about multiboxing or gives us a definitive answer, speculate is all we can do.
It's already as clear as it needs to be, IMO. There are more than a few places where they say you can not send 1 keystroke to all accounts and have all accounts respond to that same keystroke.
Their idea of multiboxing now is the old-school alt-tab method. 1 keystroke = 1 action on ONE account. You want to round robin actions to each instance {1st press > acct 1, second press > acct 2} that should be fine. But sending all presses to all accounts is no longer acceptable to SOE.Quote:
Multiboxing is allowed so long as each character performing an action requires a unique and separate keystroke.
People coming back saying "Well I haven't been banned" is not confirmation, it is the same as people coming back to the WoW boards saying "Well, I share accounts and I haven't been banned, so go ahead and do it" IMO. We have 4 responses from 4 different CMs all stating the same thing and dozens of responses from players trying to to say that SOE is talking out of 2 both sides of their mouth. I don't see a single CM response that includes "quote quote, wink wink, nudge nudge".