Origins of the Shammy+Pally Fad/Phase/Craze/Insanity(?)

In my opinion, before BC and arenas, 5 cloths were the way to go. Post BC, Shammys have the staying power to consider giving up AoE in favor of Heroics (didn't exist pre BC) and Arenas (didn't exist pre BC).

You do have a point that the videos make a diffence. Just don't overlook the impact of broad and sweeping changes.

Also, no other class can DPS, heal, wear mail, instant cast 100% crit, 4x grounding totem, AoE (some), rez, ANKH, etc like Shammys. Which is why they are widely chosen to box with. They all have INSANE utility.

Shammys are nowhere near as good as 4 mages 1 priest in AV though.

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Originally Posted by Xzin

Also, no other class can DPS, heal, wear mail, instant cast 100% crit, 4x grounding totem, AoE (some), rez, ANKH, etc like Shammys. Which is why they are widely chosen to box with. They all have INSANE utility.

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They did have this pre-BC. BC brought Lightning Overload, an improved (and constantly tweaked) clearcast, Heroism, ToW (which is rarely taken by the PvPing shaman), and 2 elementals that can't be used in arenas.

It's all been here pre-BC.

The only things I'd consider that are significant to arenas are Lightning Overload and Heroism, considering that clearcasting and ToW (not to mention the elementals) aren't used for PvP. EDIT: Clearcast is of course USED in arenas, but when PvPing you typically don't worry too much about mana efficiency as much as raw dps powah.

I was a 70 shaman prior to multiboxing, and I spent way to much time depressing myself in the shaman forums about poor 70 scaling, the very few BC upgrades when it came to fancy new skills, their lack of anti-CC or CC, and their use in pvp essentially summed up as a "heroism-bot".

Perhaps the one change that brought Shaman to the forefront was the addition of arenas (primarily due to heroism and heroism alone), but I struggle to think that 4 multiboxed dps classes couldn't perform at the same ability as 4 shaman in the same situation given the same amount of skill.

The reason why Ellay does so well may very well be because of the amount of group coordination he has in order to efficiently focus fire. Especially considering mages are getting a free iceblock, why wouldn't they be able to perform just as effectively? Or warlocks? Or even hunters now that they've got the utility of traps + arcane shot dispells and the deadzone update?

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

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Originally Posted by Xzin

In my opinion, before BC and arenas, 5 cloths were the way to go. Post BC, Shammys have the staying power to consider giving up AoE in favor of Heroics (didn't exist pre BC) and Arenas (didn't exist pre BC).

You do have a point that the videos make a diffence. Just don't overlook the impact of broad and sweeping changes.

Also, no other class can DPS, heal, wear mail, instant cast 100% crit, 4x grounding totem, AoE (some), rez, ANKH, etc like Shammys. Which is why they are widely chosen to box with. They all have INSANE utility.

Shammys are nowhere near as good as 4 mages 1 priest in AV though.

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As I was reading the posts I had the same thoughts. Shamans were a waste for boxing pre-BC. High end gear from boxing was non existant for soft-core (no arena rewards, or badge gear). And only for hard-core in BGs (warlord/high warlord gear) unless you had a guild that would rather take your 5 over other players (which has been the case for a few, but unless you are awsome-sauce at it, it won't happen). This meant that you would be apt to chose just regular PvP fun in the BGs, with a class makeup that could perform well enough with regular dungeon gear. As I mentioned in my other post in another thread, it really depends on what you want to do.

I have been as much as 10boxing in WoW since Jan 2006, about 3 months after I started playing WoW. It was either a mage or warlock crew. It was really the only two that made sense to make. I made the decision based on what BG I wanted to do, which was AV. So that narrowed it down to one choice, mage.

Now everything is different since the expansion. Hindsight is 20/20. Shamans had their balls drop; warlocks got Seed of Corruption; all the access to gear, etc etc. Based off of all of that, and yes, seeing videos on here, I'm starting up a 5shm crew to play with. But my love is still having fun in AVs, and therefore my "main" group will stay mages for now. I have plans to try out the first viable "Hero class" for multiboxing when it becomes available, and I don't think the Death Knight is going to be it.

I also agree that seeing is believing. Everything is theory at start, and once it is proved with a video on effectiveness of class combo XXXX, people will want to do that as well. Since they know it "can" work, vs trying out a combo that you find out is worthless for 8 months while you soft core grind them up 70 levels. :wink:

But also, I feel some other data in your analysis is missing (not that you said it was 100% complete and accurate or anything :wink: ):
There are a lot of things that has happened in the game in the last year, that have affected how stuff works, especially for multiboxing. There will also more than likely be some class down the road that puts current configs to shame for certain aspects of both PvP and PvE.

I made this post over 4 hours inbetween things, and now I have to rush to bed, so sorry if it is not concise. :shock:

-S

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Originally Posted by Vyndree

I struggle to think that 4 multiboxed dps classes couldn't perform at the same ability as 4 shaman in the same situation given the same amount of skill.

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I don't. I tested it, on the PTRs. Mages were AWFUL. They just... die. So do priests. When (or why) they became the worst healers is beyond me. Shamans were far better with only an hour or two of practice than the mages. With practice, they are amazing. I did OK with 4 cloth DPS classes but all in all.... don't expect any 2000+ from a 5 boxer with 5 cloth including a priest healer. 5 cloth and ONE healer = dead.

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Originally Posted by Vyndree

The reason why Ellay does so well may very well be because of the amount of group coordination he has in order to efficiently focus fire. Especially considering mages are getting a free iceblock, why wouldn't they be able to perform just as effectively? Or warlocks? Or even hunters now that they've got the utility of traps + arcane shot dispells and the deadzone update?

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Ellay does so well bc he has 5 healers, stun, ANOTHER PERSON, TOTEMS (grounding, mana tide I am looking at you), MAIL and instant cast, ranged DPS.

He is a siege tank. DPS classes are glass cannons. Period. Arenas are not just loldpsspike = win.

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Originally Posted by Vyndree

They did have this pre-BC. BC brought Lightning Overload, an improved (and constantly tweaked) clearcast, Heroism, ToW (which is rarely taken by the PvPing shaman), and 2 elementals that can't be used in arenas.

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I'm no expert on shaman, nor on WoW. I'm not even sure if I understood you correctly here, but Lightning Overload and Wrath totems is what gives the multi-shaman crew its power, yes?. The amount of focus fire a shaman can do with these abilities can trump 4 mages.

Anyway, the rewards from PvE content just wasn't there for a box crew pre-expansion, compared to PvP. This means (at least in my case) that it makes more sense to make a mage group. Someone else here said it that you get more of an "all around" group with shaman.

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Originally Posted by Vyndree

Perhaps the one change that brought Shaman to the forefront was the addition of arenas (primarily due to heroism and heroism alone), but I struggle to think that 4 multiboxed dps classes couldn't perform at the same ability as 4 shaman in the same situation given the same amount of skill.

The reason why Ellay does so well may very well be because of the amount of group coordination he has in order to efficiently focus fire. Especially considering mages are getting a free iceblock, why wouldn't they be able to perform just as effectively? Or warlocks? Or even hunters now that they've got the utility of traps + arcane shot dispells and the deadzone update?

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Well, I think a big tipping point is that a shaman group has 5 healers, mages have 1. Therefore people quickly realize that they have to take down 1 character to cripple that group. In a shaman group you can easily obfuscate that, or at least have extra healing (albiet not as great as a holy priest individually).

-S

-S

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Originally Posted by Vyndree

They did have this pre-BC. BC brought Lightning Overload, an improved (and constantly tweaked) clearcast, Heroism, ToW (which is rarely taken by the PvPing shaman), and 2 elementals that can't be used in arenas.

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I'm no expert on shaman, nor on WoW. I'm not even sure if I understood you correctly here, but Lightning Overload and Wrath totems is what gives the multi-shaman crew its power, yes?. The amount of focus fire a shaman can do with these abilities can trump 4 mages.

Anyway, the rewards from PvE content just wasn't there for a box crew pre-expansion, compared to PvP. This means (at least in my case) that it makes more sense to make a mage group. Someone else here said it that you get more of an "all around" group with shaman. Post expansion you have a reason to do PvE content, and now there is also the arenas. Where as before, in my opinion, it was BGs only.

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Originally Posted by Vyndree

Perhaps the one change that brought Shaman to the forefront was the addition of arenas (primarily due to heroism and heroism alone), but I struggle to think that 4 multiboxed dps classes couldn't perform at the same ability as 4 shaman in the same situation given the same amount of skill.

The reason why Ellay does so well may very well be because of the amount of group coordination he has in order to efficiently focus fire. Especially considering mages are getting a free iceblock, why wouldn't they be able to perform just as effectively? Or warlocks? Or even hunters now that they've got the utility of traps + arcane shot dispells and the deadzone update?

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Well, I think a big tipping point as far as survivability and effectiveness is that a shaman group has 5 healers, mages have 1. Therefore people quickly realize that they have to take down 1 character to cripple that group, which is very easy to kill a priest before cheap shot wears off. In a shaman group you can easily obfuscate that, or at least have extra healing (albiet not as great as a holy priest individually) and wear mail.

-S

In terms of PvP, when I considered making a 3man team I considered several classes. The biggest reason to choose Shaman, in my mind, is that much of their defense lies in passive abilities. Higher armor, grounding totem, spell interupt is built into a damage spell, passive damage taken reduction talents etc...

When considering other classes; mage, warlock, priest, hunter: I either eliminated them because they could not heal or because their defenses were too active. For example, my main 1box character is a mage and the biggest objective in PvP is to stay away from people, which means kiting. Kiting with multiple characters sounds like it would be somewhat difficult.

All shaman setups work because of quick casting, high burst, ranged damage. Every character is a healer. With properly setup macros, any character recieving focus fire can get a large amount of healing. Plus having the uniform team setup, not having a priest/mage, means there is no obvious target. Again, with properly setup macros, I can switch my "main" shaman to another with the press of a button.

When talking about PvE, I would say that any balance group if controlled well should work out. There are several videos out of high end 5 man PvE being done by some pretty diverse groups.

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Originally Posted by Xzin

don't expect any 2000+ from a 5 boxer with 5 cloth including a priest healer. 5 cloth and ONE healer = dead.

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Agreed, but from this portion of the conversation I was assuming a 4 dps multiboxer with 1 healer being played by another person. (after all, I've seen no 5-boxing arena videos/posts yet)

At the same time, squishies have added utilities with CC. Shaman have none. This is the reason why shaman have mail. Granted, you'll lose CC/anti-CC on a person thanks to their PvP trink or other means, but that's the trade-off you make for rolling a "pure" dps class.

Warlocks: Seduce, fear, howl of terror, CoEx kiting (after all, shaman can FS/EB kite but have few spammable instant casts, so I consider this appropriate for instant-cast dot locks), felpuppies for defensive/offensive purging (i.e. some anti-cc)
Mage: Blink (anti-cc), sheep, counterspell, frost nova, FB kiting, and just recently trainable iceblock (essentially like a pally bubble), Defensive/Offensive purging via Spellsteal, Curse removal
Shaman: Grounding totem, Tremor Totem, Earth Shock, FS kiting, Offensive purging, Poison removal

(I've highlighted the mage/warlock portions that match)

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Originally Posted by Xzin

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Originally Posted by Vyndree

The reason why Ellay does so well may very well be because of the amount of group coordination he has in order to efficiently focus fire. Especially considering mages are getting a free iceblock, why wouldn't they be able to perform just as effectively? Or warlocks? Or even hunters now that they've got the utility of traps + arcane shot dispells and the deadzone update?

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Ellay does so well bc he has 5 healers, stun, ANOTHER PERSON, TOTEMS (grounding, mana tide I am looking at you), MAIL and instant cast, ranged DPS.

He is a siege tank. DPS classes are glass cannons. Period. Arenas are not just loldpsspike = win.

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I've underlined the portions that are actually relatively unique to shamans. I'm assuming that we're talking about a 4-boxed dps group with another person healing.

Shamans have instant cast DPS in the form of NS+LB on a long cooldown (much like pom+pyro), and shocks which are limited range, shared cooldown. Mages, Locks, and Shadowpriests all have instant cast abilities (I'm including dots) that are not limited by cooldowns or reduced casting range.

As for 5 healers, a 4x shadowpriest group would be similar. Granted, shadowpriests aren't exactly represented in PvP, so I'll let that one slide. But honestly, having played a shaman in both elemental and resto specs, there is are few situations that you'd waste your time healing as an elemental shaman:
1) it opens up your entire nature school (which includes totems, earth shock, LB, heals) for spell lock. (But then again, so does lightning bolt... *sigh*)
2) The amount of healing done in elemental gear/spec is miniscule.
3) Spell pushback. Nuff said.

As for totems:
There's a reason why there is little shaman representation in 2's and 3's. Totems were balanced with a full 5-man group in mind. So since we're considering a 4 dps group with a healer, let's just ignore this little tidbit.
Yes, grounding totem is OP. Grounding totem already got a small nerf (4 rank1 instant cast spells/dots/purges can kill it), so it's been on Blizzard's radar for balancing. I don't believe it was ever intended for use in a 5-shaman situation, but I don't think there's anything Blizzard can do to it right now that wouldn't cause a shaman riot.
Yes, tremor totem is OP when you consider a multiboxing scenario (and less OP if you consider 5 different players who won't be sitting on top of each other).
They are the easiest dispellable buff in the game by anyone who knows how to /macro. Lucky for us, most people are incredibly stupid.
Shaman were designed as a buffing hybrid. In in a full group, they do their job well. This I cannot argue with, but at the same time I would consider this the cornerstone of the shaman class, and also its weakness in groups that have less than 5 members, or classes that prefer kiting techniques that take them out of range of the totems.
Furthermore, being the least played class at 70 (and under), shaman are likely the least understood class in the entire playerbase. The totem mechanics are totally unique to us, so that puts other players at a mental disadvantage. If you asked the average arena player, how many of them could tell you that grounding totem doesn't affect aoe? How many could tell you that they have a totem targeting macro? How many of them can tell you what totems do which things? How many of you have seen someone attack a stoneclaw or sentry totem? (Mwahahahaha)

And very finally, mail. I'm getting long-winded, so let's keep this short.
1) Only works vs physical damage, and mortal strike is mortal strike.
2) Resilience is not limited to mail gear

Compare the defensive abilities of mail gear + totems to iceblock+sheep+frost nova, soul link / starting out with a VW sac / seduce / fear / howl of terror / and the rediculous amount of stam a warlock tends to run with.

Anyway, this whole big blob of text has a point:
Shaman have positive points, and negative points. So does any other class. My argument still stands - an equally skilled player with equally geared 4x dps team (plus a healer) could perform at the same level as 4x shaman (plus a healer) in a multiboxing scenario.



I'm aware that certain class balances work better in BG, PvE, PvP, etc. But that doesn't mean they're not even comparable. I'm not advocating that shaman are gimp, or that 4-5boxing shaman is bad just because it's the flavor of the month -- I'm just observing trends, advocating unique spec/class ideas, and generally trying to get people to look outside the box.

If I had known shaman would be dual-boxing's next biggest trend, I probably wouldn't have rolled them to begin with. I like challenges and new ideas. Furthermore, I like PROVING that new ideas can work. Sadly, I'm already most of the way through my 60's and I'm loathe to start from scratch so now you're stuck with me ;)

Half of us wouldn't be multiboxing shaman if someone didn't step up and say "It CAN be done and I'm going to TRY it." -- heck, half of us wouldn't be multiboxing if you, Xzin, didn't try it to begin with -- and succeeded with HWL ranks.

Anyway, I'll step off my soapbox. ;)

You really sound like you have the passion to bring us the next inspirational multiboxer video of a non-shaman setup!

Have the time to level another 5 characters? :)

I propose a 5 Rogue team :)