Sweet, DK tanking nerf.

Nowhere in my statement did I say that you were saying it was the end of DK tanks, in retrospect I can see where you might have drawn that conclusion from my statement, but I was not including you. I was saying that I've heard others say it, and I think there's a little too much "the sky is falling" over these changes. Let's just agree to disagree on the severity of this nerf (we can both atleast agree that there is some nerf bat swinging going on). In the end, I don't think these changes are going to affect me much, and yes if anything, I think as an Unholy DK some of these changes will actually help me. I admit however, that it IS a bit odd that Blizzard says they want to encourage more people to be Blood and Frost, then ... nerfs tanks that aren't Unholy.

My question is, with the changes we've seen thus far. What specs are people looking at?
Most likely I'll be going with something like this:
http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EMoZ0xZfg0Ihckgh0Rcout

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Originally Posted by 'genocyde',index.php?page=Thread&postID=184263#pos t184263

I don't think this shows wrath was rushed at all. They are just trying to do 4 years worth of balancing on a DK in 4 months. I think with this class really having nothing to compare to balance wise... They are just having trouble balancing a plate tanking dps caster class with silences and 4k dps in blues. I think the DK is just a terrible class to attempt to balance PvE and PvP with the same "all specs, all jobs" idea that is not working for them.

Also, they said they are just bringing all the tanks back to even with eachother. You can cry all you want about dk nerfs, I'm right there with you. My bear tank is losing 5k health and 9k armor currently on the PTR with my nerfs.

They are just trying to bring warrior and pally tanks back into competition with bears and DK's.

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I disagree DK's are simply a Hybrid of existing class designs,with 4 years of data,experience, and game design its not such a radical new class.
Druids can tank and cast.
Paladins have stun,bubble and consecration.
We have warlocks
Warriors have Rage and direct melee DPS.
Pets are nothing new.
Death grip is a new feature,but doesn't need balancing it seems.
Warlocks have DOT's
Mage frost CC's
It isn't anything that original,my critisism is that the changes they are making really could clearly have been sorted before launch.
How long have DK's been in Blizzards design pipeline?
Take all these changes in the context with other serious shortsightedness,eg Arena AoE/Burst,Resislience and PvP gear from instances and all the problems of PvE gear in PvP,I say again it smacks of a rushed job to me,and I feel like atm i'm paying to play a polished Beta.

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Originally Posted by 'Hor',index.php?page=Thread&postID=184293#post1842 93

Nowhere in my statement did I say that you were saying it was the end of DK tanks, in retrospect I can see where you might have drawn that conclusion from my statement, but I was not including you. I was saying that I've heard others say it, and I think there's a little too much "the sky is falling" over these changes. Let's just agree to disagree on the severity of this nerf (we can both atleast agree that there is some nerf bat swinging going on). In the end, I don't think these changes are going to affect me much, and yes if anything, I think as an Unholy DK some of these changes will actually help me. I admit however, that it IS a bit odd that Blizzard says they want to encourage more people to be Blood and Frost, then ... nerfs tanks that aren't Unholy.

My question is, with the changes we've seen thus far. What specs are people looking at?
Most likely I'll be going with something like this:
http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EMoZ0xZfg0Ihckgh0Rcout

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I dont think my group, even with a druid healer, can effectively operate without blood aura. So no matter what I take, it will have blood aura and possibly worms in it. (Might as well if I go that deep.)

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Originally Posted by Zerocool2024',index.php?page=Thread&postID=184266# post184266]You know, I am starting to see [url='http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=User&userID=11771

Multibocks[/url] as Satan, every time he posts something about DK's it's a nerf.... Lol.

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haha, sorry Zero, I post what I think is worthy of posting. Most of the time lately it seems its nerfs =(

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Originally Posted by 'Multibocks',index.php?page=Thread&postID=184317#p ost184317

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Originally Posted by 'Hor',index.php?page=Thread&postID=184293#post1842 93

Nowhere in my statement did I say that you were saying it was the end of DK tanks, in retrospect I can see where you might have drawn that conclusion from my statement, but I was not including you. I was saying that I've heard others say it, and I think there's a little too much "the sky is falling" over these changes. Let's just agree to disagree on the severity of this nerf (we can both atleast agree that there is some nerf bat swinging going on). In the end, I don't think these changes are going to affect me much, and yes if anything, I think as an Unholy DK some of these changes will actually help me. I admit however, that it IS a bit odd that Blizzard says they want to encourage more people to be Blood and Frost, then ... nerfs tanks that aren't Unholy.

My question is, with the changes we've seen thus far. What specs are people looking at?
Most likely I'll be going with something like this:
http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EMoZ0xZfg0Ihckgh0Rcout

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I dont think my group, even with a druid healer, can effectively operate without blood aura. So no matter what I take, it will have blood aura and possibly worms in it. (Might as well if I go that deep.)

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Heh, I just roll with the punches.
They took away my HB, I dealt with it and was still able to clear my dungeons.
They take away some of my Defense, (I can manage).
They take away my Aura, I'M FUCKED :cursing: ...Proper that is :P ... But I will find a way to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by '5fingersofdoom',index.php?page=Thread&postID=1842 96#post184296

I disagree DK's are simply a Hybrid of existing class designs,with 4 years of data,experience, and game design its not such a radical new class.
Druids can tank and cast.
Paladins have stun,bubble and consecration.
We have warlocks
Warriors have Rage and direct melee DPS.
Pets are nothing new.
Death grip is a new feature,but doesn't need balancing it seems.
Warlocks have DOT's
Mage frost CC's
It isn't anything that original,my critisism is that the changes they are making really could clearly have been sorted before launch.
How long have DK's been in Blizzards design pipeline?
Take all these changes in the context with other serious shortsightedness,eg Arena AoE/Burst,Resislience and PvP gear from instances and all the problems of PvE gear in PvP,I say again it smacks of a rushed job to me,and I feel like atm i'm paying to play a polished Beta.

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First off... Druids cannot tank and cast, they can tank OR cast (there is a huge difference especially for PvP or bosses). Paladins bubble has been under huge review because of arena and the whole 5xRet pally killing an entire team during 1 bubble+wings moment.

None of that is all that relevant to what I meant though. All those things you named do not happen on the same classes. Yes, the abilities are for the most part not that original and a lot of them we're redesigned back into other classes (eg. knockbacks on pre-existing aoe) so that everyone was a little more balanced and had the shiny things the new DK had.

The problem comes when you combine them all. It's when you can take a DPS class that is doing near top level DPS if not top level, and make them a capable PvP class and tank without changing anything. Frost presence gives them all the tank power of any other tank without the key downfalls that even the other hybrid tank/dps (bear/cat) can't come anywhere near. Yes druids CAN go bear form but they lose all DPS capability period and without key talents some would argue are not capable of tanking but I assume Dk's suffer that to some extent as well. You can not cast cat skills in bear form. You cannot cast all warrior skills in defensive stance. You cannot tank much with a ret pally.

DK's have the only class CC that is a 100% AoE lockdown that does not break on all damage; except maybe divine hymn, that shares CD's with all other priest cc's and has a terribly long timer. They can go immune to almost all CC + Magic + tank mitigation against physical. That is all fine, except they can still pump out good damage while doing this. It merely needs tuned, they are not that far ahead of other classes. There just needs to be some damage consequences for being the best survival class in the game.

The tanking issue is obviously known and being tuned. PvP balance is probably close enough and I'm sure we all wish they'd stop tuning PvE with arena based changes.

What I meant was, the skills themselves can be tune by precedent but the class cannot. Eg. There aren't any shadow priests running around that can break 25k health, throw a 5 second silence, go completely immune to CC and Magic with 70% physical mitigation while healing themselves for ridiculous amounts while dealing out massive instant damage while their 12 summons are beating the snot out of everything else.

There has to be limits.

I hate nerfs. As a feral druid, I *really* hate nerfs lately.

DeathKnights needed nerfs. All through beta and all through the pre-Wrath discussions DKs were going to be an OFF-TANK. That was their purpose. After Wrath released I was running Resto with a DK tank clearing heroics (we were both 2/3 of the first 3 to 80 in our guild) and he tanked everything. He was tanking things (imho) he shouldn't have been able to. And I had a very easy time healing him. (I'm a 2 year feral druid with only prior resto experience was 8/11/42 S2-S3) So I was new to the PvE healing game, but still had no problem steam rolling him through heroics. DeathKnights went from OT to MT, very fast, and no one really said anything. It took a bit to start scaling back how well of a tank they were. Hell, I know how that is, I was feral during BC pre 2.4 when it was next to impossible fora feral druid to be taken seriously as a MT, we were always relagated back to OT / DPS.

Blizzard said that the DK talents stacked too well, with 5 DKs clearing instances / heroics I'd have to agree. You couldn't do this with mages, rogues, etc. (Sure as I say this, watch someone prove me wrong :_D) So of course nerfs are incoming. They said preWrath Dks would be the offtanks raiding guilds would need to survive huge amounts of magic damage on the tanks. Sure, thats great. Especially with the reluctance a lot of raiding guilds had towards DKs. So now you have this class that is so powerful they can MT anything, DPS with a gear swap. (Good thing they can't raid heal or bye bye to the druid class). IMO DKs were the BEST Wrath launch tanks out there. I think even with the nerf they're still going to be a great tank. But they're simply being brought in line with Prot Paladins and Prot Warriors. I don't mention feral druids here, because imo they're seriously screwing up feral bears.

Nerfs are never fun, but my problem with Blizzard's "Bring the player, not the class", is how come they made DKs SO great at MTing Sarth for 3 Drakes? Most guilds that downed 3D used a DK MT on Sarth. It seems like one big contradiction. But who knows. I've dropped 3d as the MT on Sarth with no problems. 2 of the 5 guilds on Madoran that have downed 3D used a feral MT. I don't think there is anything wrong with fights like 3d being hard on 1 certain tanking class, everyone needs a challenge, but don't be all "Bring the player, not the class" and make fights where you almost HAVE to bring a certain class.

I dont remember these discussions of DKs being OTs. All I remember was them saying they would be the magic heavy boss tank. Also your post reeks of class envy and elitism. Seriously who would choose a class that could only be an OT, aka bitchtank? (Which you are so obviously pissed at being relegated to.)

Dk100000345: Hey guys it cool if I join your guild to tank?
DruidMT: I guess, but your bitch ass can only OT.
DK100000345: Even if I get good gear?
DruidMT: Yep, sorry it's Blizzard's vision.
DK100000345: Oh, that sucks.

So you are saying because you walked uphill both ways to school in the snow that everyone behind you has to as well. Blizzard has been balancing this game forever, it didnt take a brain surgeon to see that there are a lot of things about DKs that should never have gone live. Also, let's get something straight. I am not going to quit over these changes, so stop making it out like I'm going postal. I pointed out that it is a nerf and that I didnt like it.

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Originally Posted by 'Multibocks',index.php?page=Thread&postID=184471#p ost184471

I dont remember these discussions of DKs being OTs.

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me either

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Also your post reeks of class envy and elitism.

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I didn't see any elitism, but there is some class envy coming from every class towards DK's at some point (hence the QQ and nerfs)

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Seriously who would choose a class that could only be an OT, aka bitchtank? (Which you are so obviously pissed at being relegated to.).

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Hybrid is Hybrid. That was the whole point, hybrid DPS is balanced to be ~5% under pure DPS. Since there are no heal/tank only classes this balance does not exist there and they get full capabilities albeit some in the form of utility over output.

I'm sure a large chunk of DK QQ is generated through PvP but that doesn't make the re-balancing any less necessary. That or give warriors (DK's closest comparison as far as tank/melee only) the ability to do 5kDPS on a gear swap in Prot spec.

Back in the day, raids were built for 40 people. My theory is they did this so you could bring sub par people like feral DPS or shadow priests or whatever. Now as they slowly balance all the fail out of certain classes they are able to tune content more precise and still have all classes capable of getting in a raid. Having 9/10 guilds with a DK or Feral tank is not acceptable in this model. They can either make warriors / Pally's better or DK/Feral worse... They chose DK/Feral nerfs all around.