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If you ask me, the only different here is exposure. Both programs do some things that are perfectly legitimate, but has the capacity to do things that are not. One happens to have gained more exposure, and also made a bit of money, whereas the other hasn't.
If the other followed the same route, gained the same amount of exposure and made the same amount of money, it probably stands to reason that Blizzard would turn their all seeing eye towards it as well.
The Nameless Program is getting sued because it allows automation. The technical ground for the lawsuit is copyright violation, because the program reads WoW's memory and makes a copy of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurblash
HotkeyNet doesn't do anything like that. It can't do automation because it doesn't have loops or any method of detecting what's happening inside WoW. It can't be sued for copyright violation because it doesn't copy WoW's memory or even look at WoW's memory.
Honestly, really, it's crystal clear to programmers that there is a gigantic difference between the types of programs we're discussing. One type of program (the nameless kind) reads WoW's adress space, writes WoW's address space, reads WoW's packets, hooks WoW's DLL's, etc. This is blatantly against the rules. The other type doesn't do that sort of thing. None of the programs discussed in this forum are in the first category, so far as I know.
By the way, I'd really like your opinion of those pages I linked. Do you think they are okay? Do you think they should be changed?
Then it is their opinion I shall seek.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=76099#pos t76099
I wasn't arguing. I was using an analogy to explain the significance of "violating a program's address space" since it's hard for non-programmers to understand. Of course you're right that laws and game rules are different.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=76099#pos t76099
Well, I'm fascinated with etymology, so I love studying patterns and common spellings and phrases that people who speak other languages are trying to type in English.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Vyndree',index.php?page=Thread&postID=76028#post7 6028
It also helps that on other forums I frequent, that I've had German and Spanish speaking forum members pointing out how people who speak those languages make some very common mistakes, in their phrasing, and spelling (kind of easy to spot really, since English is pretty much the only language that will put the Adjective BEFORE the Noun, whereas all other languages (AFAIK) put the noun BEFORE the adjective.
Example: In English we would say "Put on that Green Sweater", now if you LITERALLY translated most other languages on a word-for-word basis, they would translate "Put on that Sweater Green"
This is how it's works for me anyway. :P
It's just in my nature to watch out for the 'underdog' or 'newbie' I guess.
THE FOLLOWING IS NOT A FLAME, it is just what I thought, and my interpretations
What was going through my mind when I started reading the flames and intolerance in this thread at the beginning was, "How can a community that gets so falsely accused of cheating and botting
on an almost DAILY basis and hating the fact that these allegations get thrown at them CONSTANTLY", can so quickly jump on the accusation bandwagon and start accusing this newbie of:
1. Wanting a pirated version of Keyclone. (If everyone had exercised a bit more reading comprehension and less jumping to conclusions it would've helped here)
2. Being a 'loser' for wanting a FREE software solution to multiboxing, because each account costs $15, how DARE anyone try to cut a little bit of expense off! ^^ (that's like saying "Hey you bought a HumVee, you HAVE to buy the expensive gas!)
3. And getting the argument that if you have the money to have multiple accounts, then everything else you do that requires Mulitboxing ALSO has to be expensive (sounds a little elitist actually) ;)
4. Being lazy (there are no 'lazy' multiboxers, multiple key presses/combinations FTW!) :D
Anyway, your points are well taken Vyndree, I just wanted to give my honest side and view of this entire thing as well
You have my respect for what you do on the official forums, and I guess you can say, in a way, I was emulating you, by sticking up for that guy here, that everyone jumped on, just like how you defend
(almost daily) multiboxers who are blindly jumped on in the Blizzard forums
Peace
/Hugs
I just want to say how glad I am to have Occam's Razor in this thread and in our community. What he so eloquently says saves me a whole load of typing :)
Fully agree /clapQuote:
Originally Posted by 'Otlecs',index.php?page=Thread&postID=76301#post76 301
Absolutely, and I respect yours and everyone else's honest opinions on this board :)Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Occam\'s Razor',index.php?page=Thread&postID=76294#post7629 4
Sometimes people can be too quick to jump to conclusions -- that was my primary concern in this case. It's very easy to take offense from the typed word because it's hard to convey emotions without billions of these guys: :) :( ;) :P :D
So I would say my only comment here is (to everyone) -- be careful with what you say. You may be right, but people might not interpret your words with the same emotion as you intended. When you're reading someone else's post, it's usually good to assume that they mean the best -- they're usually not attacking you. And if you have a problem with the "tone" in someone's post or you feel personally attacked feel free to talk to a mod and we'd be happy to mediate. If you're writing a post, re-read it before you hit "submit" to make sure that you've written something clearly and hopefully won't get taken the wrong way.
In any case, it's all common sense but I thought I'd throw that out there. :)
Can we all just have a group hug now?..... X 5? :P
Yes, you alliance folks do a group hug.
/cast blast wave
/aoe spam
ROTFLMAO!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Ughmahedhurtz',index.php?page=Thread&postID=76498 #post76498
Love your Avatar BTW :D
Bah!Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Ughmahedhurtz',index.php?page=Thread&postID=76498 #post76498
Shaman:
/cast little totems made of WIN
Paladin:
/cast magical I WIN spell
/flex :thumbup:
So.....could somebody summarise this long undulating thread?
After skimming, it appears that a newcomer should assume that Keyclone is legal (I wonder if Blizzard would agree with this) and HKN/AHK are illegal (By Legal and Illegal I mean in the eyes of Blizzard)
There is also some suggestion that this forum should not support the programs so described as illegal.
I am SURE I have this wrong, but perhaps a mod or Vyndreee could clarify
I am fighting to not be mean.. You are asking us to go back and do the work for you because you don't want to read.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Draku',index.php?page=Thread&postID=76900#post769 00
HKN and AHK are not illegal, but you can use them in a way that could be in the eyes of Blizzard. Just be careful with what you are doing, and read the Wiki and other threads to make sure you aren't doing something that is "known" to be illegal. This part you will have to do, all the information is there that you could need.
Good luck! :D
Thanks for not being mean. I appreciate it. (Although you slightly misunderstood my post)
I also appreciate your concise and fair summary...
'HKN and AHK are not illegal, but you can use them in a way that could be in the eyes of Blizzard.'
Just like the Logitech G15 keyboard I guess,......
The only thing I would add is....
I DO NOT BELIEVE Blizzard have confirmed that any of the Software tools by name are legal or not. (Interestingly, they did for the G15)
I'm still waking up with coffee, so, sorry if I misunderstood. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Draku',index.php?page=Thread&postID=76917#post769 17
I don't have any info on the G15 or the confirmed software tools. All I do know is automation = bad. 1 key press should = 1 key press (but 1 key press can = 1 key press to 5 accounts).
[quote='Draku',index.php?page=Thread&postID=76917#p ost76917]confirmed that any of the Software tools by name are legal or not. [/quote]
They can't confirm because software can be updated. If the software gets updated in the future and become against policy, they would have to spend time/effort to rescind their statements.
The logitech g15, on the other hand, is (for the most part) hardware. They've made statements regarding the macro capabilities of the G15 in general.
We have many quotes of relevance both on the g15 keyboard and multiboxing (including software) at [url='http://dual-boxing.com/wiki/index.php/GM_Conversations']the GM conversations wiki[/url].
But yeah, the summary of the thread is -- Keyclone is not free. There are free resources, but to the uninformed user they are not recommended as they have the ABILITY to break the rules if used incorrectly. However, the use of these tools does not make you a cheater -- it just requires more work on the user's part to both fully understand the rules and to implement a multiboxing solution using these tools that is inline with the rules. Just like the G15.
I'm sure you're right that this explains Blizzard's reasoning. This is a common view, and Blizzard probably shares it. However I don't think this reasoning is correct. When you buy a piece of hardware today, you usually get a package that contains an enormous amount of software. People call these packages "drivers" but they aren't only drivers in the technical sense of the word "driver," they are actually suites with multiple drivers, services, service control programs, installers, automatic updaters, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the G15 includes ten times as much software as HotkeyNet and AutoHotKey put together.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Vyndree',index.php?page=Thread&postID=77032#post7 7032
Included with the software that comes with the G15, there must be some that does the same sorts of things as AutoHotkey and HotkeyNet. The difference is, the G15's software acts on signals generated by a specialized keyboard, whereas AutoHotkey and HotkeyNet act on signals generated by ordinary keyboards. Therefore a product like the G15 must supply its own device driver, whereas AutoHotKey and HotkeyNet rely on the Windows keyboard driver. This means a product like the G15 must necessarily include software which is similar to AutoHotKey or HotkeyNet, and then supply even more.
I agree....I reckon anything 'illegal' you can do with HKN you can also do with a G15.....Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Freddie',index.php?page=Thread&postID=77056#post7 7056
Regarding Vyndree's comment 'but to the uninformed user they are not recommended' Rather than this, I would suggest that the user take a little time to become informed and thereby make a decision based on facts
.......
I agree with you for the most part.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Draku',index.php?page=Thread&postID=77060#post770 60
This is where the problem is though... "Some" of the uninformed can't be bothered to read-up and become informed. Or as we all like to refer to it "RTFM". :P
And I think as a whole, the community would rather see them not get in trouble either way as it reflects poorly on those who do take the time to read and become informed.
If one person is caught "cheating" then it might lead Blizzard to crack down on some of the freedoms we enjoy as multi-boxers.
Just my thoughts. ;)
Ahh what the hell I'll bite. Gonna use the knife analogy :D. I prefer to not give children knives, yes they can be safe but if used wrong can cut ya deep. I prefer that they start out with nerf darts and plastic swords.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Draku',index.php?page=Thread&postID=77060#post770 60
"I can't recommend using AHK or HKN simply for the fact that its not something I would use myself. I also can't suggest them for the fact that even if used correctly there is that chance of abuse and I don't want to lead someone down a path that is open for abuse." :thumbsup:
People like that can't use HotkeyNet and AutoHotKey, so this isn't a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Frosty',index.php?page=Thread&postID=77074#post77 074
These programs have their own built-in screening tests. If you are able to use them, you're certainly capable of sticking to the rules.
Some parts of this thread make it sound like you need an Einsteinian IQ to avoid breaking the rules. In fact it's very simple to avoid breaking the rules.
Edit: Gurblash's post crossed this one, but I would have said the same thing to him too.
*QQ EDIT* I'm quite capable of using either AHK and HKN AND I'm quite capable of breaking the rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Freddie',index.php?page=Thread&postID=77078#post7 7078
I agree, you don't have to be Einstein to avoid breaking the rules, but even I have been guilty at one point or another of not reading/learning before using software or even every day items.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Freddie',index.php?page=Thread&postID=77078#post7 7078
Sometimes the "neat" factor outweighs the desire to read a manual first. That was more my point, sorry if it came off as arrogant. ;)
It didn't sound arrogant. I'm sorry if I sounded like I thought it was! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Frosty',index.php?page=Thread&postID=77086#post77 086
I want to stick to that main point too. That's why I keep saying, you can't use these programs without reading the manual. And every page of HotkeyNet's manual that could possibly break a WoW rule, has a warning to WoW players on it. For example:
Wait in HotkeyNet
Getting back to the knife analogy, these programs are like knifes that are so heavy, a child can't lift them. The task of writing a script file is like a tamper-proof cap on a medicine bottle -- it keeps the kiddies out.
You are using "capable" in a different way than I did. You're talking about doing something knowingly. I was talking about the ability to avoid doing something by accident.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Gurblash',index.php?page=Thread&postID=77082#post 77082
My responsibility is to protect people from breaking the rules without their realizing it.
And by the way, I don't like your use of the words "crock of shit." I've been talking to you honestly, politely, and in good faith.
If you think a program might seduce you into doing something you wouldn't otherwise want to do, then by all means, you should stay away from it.Quote:
Temptation is a dangerous thing. Even if its illegal, if theres a small chance of not being caught, it can sometimes look good.
But I don't think this is a risk for most people.
I didn't say it wasn't possible, it just wasn't recommended.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Draku',index.php?page=Thread&postID=77060#post770 60
A person who needs to be handfed (i.e. recommended) information about multiboxing is probably someone who needs to also be handfed the rules. I can't stomach taking responsibility for that. It would essentially become "my fault" morally (keep in mind my morals are my own) that they accidentally stumbled across something that broke the rules and got themselves banned.
A person who is motivated enough to figure out how to set up AHK on their own is a person motivated enough to figure out the rules on their own. And I have no responsibility for their actions if they do decide to use it in a way that breaks the rules.
Alternatives to keyclone are clearly available and as you can see in the 2nd post in this thread -- they were pointed out. But I'm not going to handhold someone to teach them how to use it -- for one, I don't even know how (I'm a hardware boxer) and two, even if I did know how to do it, I wouldn't want to also hand feed them the entirety of the EULA/Terms so that they don't accidentally get themselves banned. We're talking about showing a person HOW to use AHK, etc. While the warnings are in the manual (where the motivated multiboxer WILL find them), the moment we start copy/pasting chunks of it into the forum we might start to lose those warnings as they get quoted and passed along.
I think linking the wiki is good enough to point them in the right direction if they are motivated enough to follow through. If they go to the wiki, they will find the guides that show them how to set things up. Furthermore, the wiki has links to the GM conversations about automation and 3rd party software, and as I understand the setup guides have plenty of warnings when they show an example of things that might be against the rules. I just can't feel comfortable being responsible -- even only partially -- to someone getting banned from innocent misuse.
If they're not motivated enough to follow through with learning things themselves (including the rules/EULA), then they can buy keyclone or just not multibox. Just my opinion.
That's a good point. When HotkeyNet's beta test began, I was careless about providing examples because I don't play WoW and didn't know anything about its rules. If somebody asked me a question, my tendency was to give them a factual answer. Lately I've become more sensitive to this issue and more careful about what I post.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Vyndree',index.php?page=Thread&postID=77187#post7 7187