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I feel the need to quest! (This thread doesn't count! XD Buddy! )
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:o
I feel the need to quest! (This thread doesn't count! XD Buddy! )
My $.02 ....
When some one comes in with "Haiz guyz! I wants to multpwn but puters are too hard, now givs me leetz skills!"
Harsh away :D
But to be fair on the other side, the stickes are a mess (and the moves to a wikki just jumbled it more). The new mult-boxers forum has 4 or 5 stickies that basically say START HERE! ALL you need to know! Then each have separate bits and pieces. The 4 other's that are 6 layers down the technical chain and bound to scare off the timid. Jump to the macro fourm and there's another 4 or 5 that seem to be the same things done different ways. It certainly not the clear and concise starting point one might expect.
But to flip back to the other side, if they're going to be the type of person who enjoys multi-boxing and all it's tinkering, they'll be the type to plow the the spaghetti pile of stickies to get what they need. It is there, just not always obvious where to start.
So, what we need is this.
The sticky of all stickies!
One sticky, crying, pointing, screaming to people to read first. With in it a categorised overview to... Other stickies!
Hey hey hey... That might work!
Here's my opinion on things:
I think some of our more dedicated members go a little "over the top" at times. Fursphere is a great example!! If you ask a question that hasn't been asked (and answered) 10,000 times in a very easy to find place (e.g. wiki or search), provide good details, he's likely to really unload and give you some super interesting advice or feedback. (Same is true of me-- I got so worked up trying to help someone understand how arena points work that I ended up writing a 2 page tutorial on the topic.) However, Fursphere goes equally over the top with posts like the one majoho started ("Tell me what is best", but no other qualifiers) in his capacity to not actually be helpful.
Getting the same poorly-researched question with not enough background information over and over is frustrating. In the case of multiboxing, it may be better for us to scare off a few people who want to be spoon-fed, because it's not like there's a really hard part at the beginning and then it's easy. The "what class should I roll" and the "how can I get a cracked copy of Keyclone" and the "please set all my macros up" requests can be followed on by an endless seas of questions like "how do I get 2000 rating in 5v5 now that I dinged 70" and "plz tell me how to 10-box Karazhan".
On the whole, I think the forums are pretty helpful. If you can't deal with an occasionally over-the-top Fursphere, you're ill-equipped to handle the people on your server who are going to report you or accuse you of having no life.
What a lot of folks fail to account for is exactly how rude it is for someone to waltz into a community forum space, skip the process of understanding the social norms that may exist, and selfishly ask for help with a problem that may be well-documented or discussed. Imagine meeting your new neighbor by having him break down the front door, walk into your living room, plop down on your couch, and ask for your spouse to get him a drink. That's a far cry different from, "<Ding dong> Hi, I wanted to introduce myself. I'm Chip, your new neighbor. I just moved in and the water company seems to have forgotten to turn on my service. Could I trouble you for a glass of water?"
I've been in this community for about a year now, and about every 2 months this exact topic comes up. Here is a summary of what happens, and what always will happen:
- Someone asks if we're too harsh to people
- Someone points out that hardly anyone reads stickies before posting
- Someone points out that we should be nice
- Everyone loses interest in thread
:)
Ok, well, I'm pretty new to these forums and not much less newer to multiboxing as my signature shows, but I've tried as hard as I could to avoid asking the sort of "what does [insert sticky-answered topic] do?" questions.
That said, much of the stickied information - and the wiki's for that matter - isn't terribly well laid out. It's been an exercise in determined trolling to find some of the information I needed, and despite the titles to the contrary, I've yet to find any single authoratative "New 5 Boxer Go Here" thread/sticky/wiki. There's some that go close, but not one that you could say, start from scratch, print this out, and having a 5-box team up and running, levelling etc.
So, guess I'll take a shot at writing one, from go to woah, for a 5-box Shammy team (which seems to be the predominant starters choice). Will post it when I'm done.
As a result of this discussion(and earlier consideration), I decided it was time to create a better "getting started" guide on the wiki. The previous one was very specific about hardware and software considerations, where the current one is more of a generic guide with simple practical samples and most of all: links to all the relevant pages with specific/detailed information.
http://www.dual-boxing.com/wiki/inde...etting_started
(the old article is still mentioned in the introduction)
I'm new to the multi-boxing realm. (Team is levels 19/20 atm)
This site has been invaluable in getting me rolling. Keyclone was an easy purchase for me (I can afford it). The stickies/wiki are all very helpful.
I would say this: the best message boards I've seen for "technical" gaming topics like this one adopt an /ignore feature for posts containing questions that can easily be answered by reading stickies/wiki. Flaming them or bumping them, or maybe worse (answering them) only fans the fire. My two coppers.
I'd also say that our wiki and stickies could use some work. (Not a criticism as building those resources takes EFFORT and TIME from the most experienced end of this community's membership.) There seems to be a ton of really great content buried in posts. Everyone loves to flame the official class forums, but some of those stickies server to really filter the basic to intermediate queries. As the stickies/wiki mature here, the posts by well-intentioned, researching newbies (like myself) will decrease. That will generally leave just the "hold my hand" posts that can be ignored.
There are a couple of stickied posts labeled "How to 2,3,4 or 5 Box" and 2 Wiki Posts about leveling/PVEing with 5x Shaman groups. So I guess it's not "New Boxer go here", but it's damn near a synonym.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'OzPhoenix',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66649#pos t66649
Now that's a good starting place. Nice work. :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by 'ken_vh',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66656#post66 656
Glad to see it - I would be happy to help in whatever way I can. Feel free to PM if you like and I could perhaps contribute something to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'ken_vh',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66656#post66 656
I just started here less than a week ago and I have found you guys to be very helpful. Not harsh in any way, shape or form. I know, for me, the 1st few days were pretty rough, I felt like my head was going to explode while trying to learn. Maybe the same thing is happening to some people and they give up, I dunno.
You're always welcome to add stuff. Just go out there and edit/create pages! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by 'OzPhoenix',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66665#pos t66665
When you're not sure if you can add/change certain things, please drop me(or Djarid) a message or open a topic about it on the wiki forum category.
Will do. The missus is heading off this weekend for some time with her friends, so I'll have some time to do something. I think a collabrative effort will work much better than one person (or a few) trying to do it all, and by all, I was thinking of a Wiki that takes someone right from the beginning through to their 10th level or so (explaining for example, that yes, you do really really wanna skip collection quests etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by 'ken_vh',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66667#post66 667
For starters, I'd be happy to write up something first of all in the "Getting Started" section. I know for myself, I botched my account creations (one of them didn't use my refer-a-friend, costing me a months free time on my main), and a few other mistakes.
It might be worth making a specific "So, you've decided to 5-box WoW" section and get specific on Shamans given how much people tend to use them, and it could launch people into more diversified grouping. For a get-go, I'll write up a "Making 5 WoW Accounts" section out and see what you all think of it.
I think that's an ongoing process. I know for me, the biggest single reason why my team is levelling so slowly is every few levels I have to stop and re-write macros as I get to understand them better and make more efficient use of the limited space given to us by Blizz for them. If I took out my macro time, I'd be closer to 40 now instead of 30 given my /played time on the Shammies.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Flash',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66666#post666 66
You have to be careful about these things, because - for example - collection quests shouldn't be skipped if you're 2-boxing :)Quote:
Originally Posted by 'OzPhoenix',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66670#pos t66670
Good idea @ account creation section.Quote:
It might be worth making a specific "So, you've decided to 5-box WoW" section and get specific on Shamans given how much people tend to use them, and it could launch people into more diversified grouping. For a get-go, I'll write up a "Making 5 WoW Accounts" section out and see what you all think of it.
Will write it up this weekend then as a starter, and go from there.
As to levelling one, I was again thinking of a 5-shaman specific "walkthrough" as once that was in place, it would be much easier for people to diversify from there.
This is exactly how I felt starting my current job dealing with credit card chargebacks and the like...my head literally felt like it would explode from all the information I had to learn just to READ the info let alone PROCESS it. Now, it's quite literally 2nd nature and I just skim through and find the relevant info and know exactly where to look and click.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Flash',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66666#post666 66
I personally strongly believe in learning and doing things yourself. The only person you can always depend on is yourself. If you can't do that noone else can help you. Not just in multi-boxing but as a life skill in general; learn to fish, don't take a fish. :P That said, most of you HAVE done so; you newer guys are just a testament that it's not that big of a problem to start, especially with how much info is available now compared to when I started when the forums consisted of a dozen simple posts, 99% of which were Keyclone, with a single post for AHK and maybe one other option that wasn't hardware.(And yes, it was in the blinding snow, uphill, both ways, you whippersnappers.) Between Keyclone and the info here it's quite literally easier than ever to box, hence why our numbers are growing so much :p
I vote our new response to "What do I do first?" be "Grow a thick skin and prepare for flaming."; if you can't deal with what little "flaming" is seen here, then you're in for a world of hurt and banning when the REAL dickheads start in on you for being a, quote, "lifeless loser who wastes his parent's money on a game from their basement cuz he can't kill with a solo char and NEEDS 5 chars to win, who is also cheating, going to sell ALL their hard work on ebay, and is using bots to play them to boot."; tl;dr: You think this is bad? The WoW "Community" will be an absolute nightmare then. :P
However, I will agree the stickies need cleaning up; I've posted no less than THREE FUCKING TIMES how to clean them up and merge similar threads into one to save space and searching but even after the wiki was done not one damn sticky was un-stickied or merged. At this point during my next "boring friday at work" I may just write up a far more comprehensive Getting Started FAQ(Apologies to the above getting started wiki; I haven't read it yet and do not include you in this rant lol) and then send it with demands to fix sticky to our fearless leaders and get this shit cleaned up once and for all :p
No I do not think we are Harsh, To be a boxer you have to have thick skin :) Some understand that and want to learn, and some do not want to learn.
No, I don't think we're too harsh with people. I did all my reading before I asked any questions and everyone else should do the same.
The posts that I'm annoyed with are the vague, general questions.
Like:
1. "Wow, cool, how do I multibox?" - (very vague, person didn't even bother reading the stickies or doing a search. Just came to the forums, registered, posted this question and waiting for someone to do it for them).
2. "What classes should I pick?" - (again... vague. person doesn't even have an idea of which classes they want to play, just waiting for someone to give them a L33T setup)
3. "I don't have money, for accounts or for computers... help!" - I understand wanting to save money and all that... but you need money to do this. At least enough for your computers and multiple accounts.
4. "I'm using my brother/friends/cousins/whatever account...." - Against the TOS... expect a ban... but they want to fight the reason why they would get noticed more by GMs and that it's "ok" to do it.
5. "How do you spread out" - OMFG-- RTFS !!!!
The ones I don't mind would be:
1. "Wow, cool, I downloaded keyclone, have my computers setup, but for some reason one of my toons isn't working correctly." - Specific question.
2. "I'm thinking of a Paly, Mage, Shaman, Druid, Hunter setup.. what do you think" - Again, specific.
3. "My room is getting too hot with all 5 computers running, do you think this computer model, do you think it'll work?" - Specific question
Helping is good... that's what the forums are for, to help and share ideas and information.
Forums are not for holding your hand and hand-feeding you information.
Forums made up of mostly technically oriented people tend to be harsh in general since most people who are technical by nature are not usually the best with people. This forum is no different than any other technical forum I've visited in the past in this regard.
Forums also trend towards cliques or mob think in regards to certain topics and those who stray against the norm (or question the clique leaders) are typically beaten up pretty quickly by the mob or the self-designated defenders. This forum is no different than any other forum I've visited in the past in this regard as well.
Ultimately it doesn't matter since the forum is what it is and the people and personalities in the forum are not going to change.
I'm a people person... I'm good with people! WHY CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?!Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Buzzatronic',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66811#p ost66811
If a community exists out of mostly technically-skilled people, it usually means that the topic requires some technical skills. Or in other words: people that don't have these technical skills or don't want to learn those skills(not directly related to multiboxing) probably don't belong here. People expect at least a minimum of self-teaching abilities here. That's not really an elitist requirement.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Buzzatronic',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66811#p ost66811
Most people that leave quickly seem to think that multiboxing is cheap and easy because it looks easy when they seem videos or see multiboxing characters in the game.
Do you really know the 'leaders'(admins and moderators) here? Because they are actually very open-minded people.Quote:
Forums also trend towards cliques or mob think in regards to certain topics and those who stray against the norm (or question the clique leaders) are typically beaten up pretty quickly by the mob or the self-designated defenders. This forum is no different than any other forum I've visited in the past in this regard as well.
Ultimately it doesn't matter since the forum is what it is and the people and personalities in the forum are not going to change.
I have to say that I have gone against a quite few things here(wikifrontpage, wiki logo, wiki category structure) and even as a newbie I actually got results. (changed the frontpage, almost got the new logo through, wiki category system is open for discussion again, etc.)
So I don 't really think that we have mobs and cliques of mobs. People are generally very nice and open about all the content that is available here. That's also why I like to hang around here.
Your response illustrates my point perfectly. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by 'ken_vh',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66816#post66 816
So... I give a whole constructive reasoning why your post doesn't make sense to me and then you counter that - without any arguments whatsoever - by saying that I just proved you right. Come on!Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Buzzatronic',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66846#p ost66846
If you find me harsh or if you find my post related to clique-mob behavior, please explain how. It's not because I have a defensive stance towards the crew that I'm showing clique-mob behavior. I think that by going against quite a few things here that I have proven not to be part of such behavior.
I'm definantly not part of a clique or baaing with any sheep...if I've got an opinion, I don't give 2 fucks who's on which side of it, I'll voice it ;) But you know you all still <3 me anyways, why, noone knows. lolz
I believe the term I'm thinking of is that I'm an "Equal-Opportunity Asshole" ;D
QFT. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Eteocles',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66864#post 66864
<3
I do agree that some certain folks are quite defensive of Rob/Keyclone being that so many have had good experiences with him and his software. That would be the ONLY place where I can see any sort of "cliquish" behavior going on -- but it's usually in response to a generally nasty accusational thread. In that way, I think it's a justified reaction from a passionate fanbase.
Hah, <3 Vyn :P
So I basically say that it's my opinion that internet forums in general tend to breed a need for some users to become self appointed defenders of other users against attacks (both actual and created) and that this forum is no different than any other forum I've visited in this regard. You respond with a defense of people (who I never once mentioned or even eluded to) and how open-minded and nice they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'ken_vh',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66862#post66 862
Do you seriously not see how that illustrates my point perfectly?
I'm not saying what you say or feel is wrong, all I'm saying is that the behavior is normal and that this forum is no better or worse than most others I've seen. That is not an attack on anyone, but if you still feel a need to defend the good name of others who such a statement does attack, go for it.
"Forums made up of mostly technically oriented people tend to be harsh", that might not have meant as an attack, still it was a negative comment that I wanted to reply on.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Buzzatronic',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66906#p ost66906
I agree that some behavior might be identical to other forums. Especially when it comes to guidelines about posting: non-technical forums usually don't have proper guidelines and expectations and are usually piling up loads of senseless posts about virtually nothing(I can generalize too :P). When I see technical forums (like this one) the bar is set higher than on non-technical forums and people have expectations when other people start posting. There is a minimum amount of quality demanded.
When people are too lazy to follow the rules (that everyone else is following) or read the obvious stickies, I think it's normal that they get the reactions we get here in the forums (as long as those reactions are written in a normal manner).
This kind of behavior is not harsh to me. People just need a thicker skin if they can't cope with reality (that they don't get everything served on a plate in front of them). I know this might sound harsh, but to me it's just common sense.
Within corporations you find the same mentality: if you don't research something first, don't ask questions. If you do ask questions(with answers already available), people will tell you in your face that you should have looked it up first and they would be absolutely right. And yes, that happens also to me.
But to answer your question:
I don't consider myself as a mob going against you and I'm not trying to beat you up for your point of view. I'm just not agreeing with you. So, no: I don't see how I illustrated your answer perfectly.
When you post something like "people shouldn't be so defensive concerning 'their leaders'!" and I can't tell you that you're wrong, then your comments are not discussable, because *any * reaction against you would be a reaction that you could use as evidence that you're right (whether you're right or not). That was why I made the previous reply. I found it unfair that you just claimed a 'you see! I was right!' as I find that I proved nothing with that post.
It's ok for you to express your own impressions of a community, but just like in many tech-forums, you'll be expected to justify these claims.
If a whole forum has a specific personality, why should the forum change and not that one person?Quote:
Ultimately it doesn't matter since the forum is what it is and the people and personalities in the forum are not going to change.
[edit] I'm not saying that a whole forum can't be wrong, I'm just pointing out that it's *likely* that it's a user problem, not a forum problem.
Well this provided more discussion than I expected, but was also good discussion so I'm happy :)
It's cool too that most people picked up on what I was actually wondering and the responses headed in that direction without it having to be spelt out. My main concern is if our responses to the people that want ezi-mode or for us to do everything for them without them having to do any research or learning were scaring off other new members that had done the research but still had questions.
From some of the responses here by newer members (and listen to me, talking like an old hand..too weird) that put in the effort it seems that hasn't been the case so it's good to know and means that the filtering process is working for the most part. I also agree that having a thick skin is most needed for multiboxing since you'll be copping it a lot harder in game and on the boards from anti-multiboxers than anything that would be felt here, since I think we even go too easy on people that deserve to be laid into...of as has been said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66908#pos t66908
Can we have something like access levels to the forums? So a new poster can post noob questions to a public general forum and the community can go check the noob posts if they want to. There would be a sticky in the public forum with a good explanation of multiboxing approaches and a link to the wiki. After the noob has stopped asking trivial questions and have demonstrated an understanding of macros etc they are then invited to join the community and then have access to all forums.
If somebody has already suggested this earlier in this thread then my apologies, I had to skip the last 2 pages because I'm at work.
ITT: people don't talk about WoW.
If you can't poke around or use the search feature to find out basic info, let's be honest, multi-boxing is NOT for you. It takes a lot of trial and error, experimentation, research, patience, and more trial and error. If you are a typical person who just bellows questions in general without even trying, or hits Thottbot before even trying a quest, you won't get 2 or more characters out of the starting position in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66475#pos t66475
Multi-boxing *should* weed out the lazy, it's not really something they'll enjoy, they just want the pew pew pew factor, not the fun of putting it all together and trying things.
'Help me help you by helping yourself'
I hate to point this out since you did this to me instead of giving a couple pointers or even a helpful search term that might get me what I was after :evil: . All you do here is clutter up the search results. So now someone searching for exactly what someone else posts will just get a thread in their search results that has no answer in it. Just a smartass response. Pretty soon people come and try to do exactly what you say and do searches and get 2-3 pages of "use the search" prompting said user to then just create a new thread asking the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66481#pos t66481
You... are... my... hero... :thumbup:
Antishadow, are you under the impression this is a public forum provided as part of a larger service, or a forum you pay to access, thus have rights?Quote:
Originally Posted by 'antishadow',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66961#po st66961
This is a private clubhouse. Them are the house rules. This is not Blizzard. This is run by the people who do it for fun, and owe you no obligations, you are a guest, and should act like one.
Where did I say anything needed to change? I simply stated things are the way they are and that's the way they'll stay. I didn't assign blame one way or another yet it appears you are assuming I did. Again, you're reading way more than I'm writing my friend. Relax.Quote:
Originally Posted by ken_vh',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66918#post669 18]"Forums made up of mostly technically oriented people tend to be harsh", that might not have meant as an attack, still it was a negative comment that I wanted to reply on.[/quote]
If saying the forum is harsh in some way is negative, why aren't you replying to all the other posts by much more established members that say the forums are just the right amount of harsh or not harsh enough because noobs need to l2search or l2sticky?
You're reading WAY MORE into what I'm saying than I'm actually saying and as a result, you're spamming your wall of text key in defense of something you think I'm attacking. Take a step back, take a breath and realize that I'm agreeing with most of the people in this thread with what I'm saying, rather than assuming I'm trying to be negative or attacking someone or something you feel doesn't deserve it.
[quote='ken_vh
I never stated that or implied that did I? I will only treat people the way I've been treated. I only stated that if people just post use the search without anything else it will clutter up the search results causing more postings that everyone dislikes so much because its harder to find what you're after. Wow. Just... Wow.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Gadzooks',index.php?page=Thread&postID=66963#post 66963
I will note that its not the "rude" person that will clutter up the results, its the person who wrote the original thread however if a link or more specific reply was given it would clean up the search results for anyone else who happened to search and got that thread.
But hey - its just a suggestion. Should I not have any interest in helping out a popular forum or site that discusses something that I enjoy?
*edit: my apologies for replying to a comment made on the first page. i didn't realize this topic was 5 pages long. doh!