The post has been up for some time. The last time there was a real GM conversation posted it was down pretty quick. It's not like this is an off hour for ISDs and such.
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The post has been up for some time. The last time there was a real GM conversation posted it was down pretty quick. It's not like this is an off hour for ISDs and such.
Well that is very interesting, and disconcerting. Basically, if you want to multibox past simple stuff like carrier + cyno alt, you need to take a huge quality of life hit. That is a real shame. I was okay with the broadcasting changes, as I recognized them as being broken and easily abused. I viewed rollover/round-robin as toeing the line. At this point I use VideoFX due to my pair of panels not being large enough to view the important pieces of information for as many characters as I control. Guess in the end, CCP doesn't know what CCP wants. They encourage multiboxing with power of two and such, but then bomb the experience back to the stone age.
Guys, don't put words into CCP's mouth. People see big fancy words and pastes from EULA and think that Peligro just said that this or that is banned, when in fact he did not.
He very clearly avoided saying anything was banned or prohibited. All he did was reiterate what was said in CCP's dev blog from April 2014 on client modification. In case you need help finding that, here it is for you: http://community.eveonline.com/news/...-eula-and-you/
Don't miss this part:
Which is reiterated in Peligro's paste:Quote:
This extends to multiboxing software. Some of the multiboxing software out there is powerful enough to count as “client modification” if used for that purpose. Our stance on third-party software is that we do not endorse such software as we have no control over what it does. As such, we can’t say that multiboxing software isn’t against our EULA. But the same goes in this case, that unless we determine that people are doing things beyond “multiboxing”, we will not be taking any action. We only care about the instances where people are messing with our process for the purposes of cheating, and running multiple clients at the same time is not in violation of our EULA in and of itself unless it involves trial accounts.
Or, in Peligro's words...Quote:
We do not endorse or condone the use of player-made software or any other third party applications or software that confers an unfair benefit to players. We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications or other software that simply enhance player enjoyment in a way that maintains fair gameplay. However, if any third party application or other software is used to gain any unfair advantage, or is used for purposes beyond its intended use, or if the application or other software violates other parts of the EULA, we may fully enforce our rights to prohibit such use, including player bans. Please use player-made or other third party software at your own risk.
1. "With regards to "round robin" or other features of specific third party programs; We will not authorize or otherwise sanction the use of any third party software. The End User License Agreement and Terms of Service are clear on this subject"
2. "Whether input broadcasting is used, video "overlays" or other features are used does not really matter. These are third party programs which change the way the game is played. This also includes round robin."
That's almost the entirety of his actual post, the rest is a pasted excerpt. But it is very clear that he DID NOT say that round-robin OR Video FX ("overlays") fall under what they consider cheating. All he said is that they will not authorize or sanction the use of any third party software, and that whether broadcasting is used, overlays or round-robin are used, "does not really matter".
So Peligro said literally nothing.
The important takeaway I got from this person is that they were reported by another player, and there was minimal followup observation from a GM. (This was backed up by direct conversation, they confirmed to me that they got banned after a player report.) Players and GMs cannot be expected to tell the difference between input broadcasting, round-robin, video fx with rollover, etc. If you're being observed and look too efficient, they're going to temp ban you. And when your excuse is to show them your uber-clever workaround of the rules "hey I'm not broadcasting, I'm using round-robin" blah blah, they can't verify it and really don't care. All they have to do is agree with the reporting player that an unfair advantage is gained, regardless of your methodology, and temp ban you.
I would still put money down saying there is no automatic detection that people are describing, because a lot more people around here would be banned. Remember, other players have motivation to report you, to get you out of their way. And everyone using multiple accounts, regardless of using ISBoxer or not, is at risk of being banned this way.
More or less cross-posted from ISBoxer forums -- http://isboxer.com/forum/viewtopic.p...&t=6569#p30845
Lax, did you sell out to CCP or something? We have at least two players who were banned for following CCP's new EULA, at least one of which helped another group in-game to come up with ways of multiboxing that fell within the defined EULA, including using petitions and asking CCP directly. CCP told us that there would be no way in hell that their detection software would have false positives, and yet, here we are.
We have a CCP employee flat out lie to us (not even talking about Seagull's Vegas and Fanfest blunders for a moment) when he agreed to a meeting with the multiboxers, and then come out on a podcast saying there will be no meeting.
We have an undefensible change to the EULA that reeks of coming out of the EVE Onion, and people using straw man, ad hominem, and other fallacies to attack ISBoxer, not to mention outright lying in their posts, and CCP doesn't do anything when we show them that we're following the new EULA.
And you expect me to lick their boots and thank them? Hell no.
I'm just telling you what you need to know. Excuse me for trying to clear a few things up in this thread.
My post has nothing to do with whether it is bullshit or not.
Im glad i stopped playing the game i love.. CCP made an easy 14.400 dollars a year on my accounts (80x 15 dollars)...
Over the years i have adapted through all the gamechanges. But risking being banned for "random reports" while not even using isboxer means the end for me.
I'm not banned, i just stopped playing after newyear since i was expecting this CCP bullshit - I'm not going to sit around waiting for some twatface to feel like I'm having an advantage. And advantage gained through learning how to play the game as efficienct as i can. This used to be a pvp game where brains, skills and dedication gave you the advantage over those who didn't put time into the game... now it means the you'll get banned since you're using more then one client...and well have an advantage....
There is without a doubt something automated going on. In december I started experiencing hotkey issues that I NEVER experienced before. If I used hotkeys too quickly I would start losing the ability to use them and I would be forced into clicking in the client manually. Unless there was suddenly an isboxer bug I'm not aware of that hit all the clients and all my computers (win 7 xp and win 8.1).
i hope they will losing so many subscription that they will take a step back in the right direction:rolleyes:
I sincerely doubt they have lost too many subs over this. The game's lifeblood is pvp, and that remains relatively unaltered.Quote:
Originally Posted by multiboxingforever
If the ratio of EVE YouTube videos of solo players to multiboxers is a fair sample of the live game, they've got nothing to worry about. And this won't affect people using two accounts, /afk spy accounts, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by EaTCarbS
It looks like the post has been edited by ISD now ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default...43#post5463343 ). Should this be reason to worry?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tool of Society
https://forums.eveonline.com/default...posts&t=389086
CCP FoxFour helping in the development of a window management 3rd party program created for multi boxing.
It's by no means isboxer but I do find it interesting that there is CCP involvement after all of the misconceptions going around.
Nothing more than a window management tool, which ISBoxer also has.Quote:
Originally Posted by K'man
Personally i've stopped trying to get an answer from the support tickets, way too much messing around with things that should be simpler
No more EVE for me
Good luck to you all -15Acc, guess it is time to go spend time IRL
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedevilyouknow
the same here, opened a ticket on 30 jan as today no answer!!!!
no more eve for me too
-8Acc
time to play somethin other
I understand that its just a simple and still broken window management tool. I would prefer isboxer of that even if that is all I ever used it for. I didn't get a chance to finish what I was gonna say about the topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by bugme143
This is what I find interesting the most about the involvement of CCP on this 3rd party tool.
This tool started development right around the time that they introduced to us back in November that there will be regulated policies being put into place.Quote:
CCP said is that they will not authorize or sanction the use of any third party software
It is probably nothing important but I just happen to find this by accident and putting the pieces together nothing makes sense anymore.
I have not logged in more than one account since December and will be selling 11 alts next month and will be selling off the other 4 come September. I will try to go back to solo play or until we get some type of clarity.
Maybe we can get some answers come fanfest this year. If that what it takes to bring it up in person.
That they would have devs assisting with 3rd-party tool development and explicitly refusing to authorize or sanction that same tool doesn't make sense? Think about it from the position of having to run everything past a legal team; should make more sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by K'man
Someone should interview CCP regarding this and their statement regarding 3rd party programs.
yea we've triedQuote:
Originally Posted by bugme143
we have a few CCP people for an upcoming podcast (one of which you will be quite interested in asking questions)
but the stipulation was no ISBoxer questions or they wouldnt come lol.... oh well... hopefully CSM 10 will listen to our pleas.
From what I've talked with him about it, it's looking increasingly unlikely, which really sucks. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by bugme143
I'm currently super busy atm with trying to recover 2 of my accounts, one of which was stolen/"hacked" and the other which was tempbanned pending investigation of the aforementioned theft (standard practice with stuff of this magnitude.) Hilariously, these happen to be my two main accounts(with all my assets), so I'm sorta stuck with absolutely nothing while I wait on that, which sorta takes up most of my time/effort. :P
Wonderful. Seriously tempted to chargeback CCP for all my gametime right now.
e: and that's why Oatmeal is dead all of a sudden...
lolyep.Quote:
Originally Posted by bugme143
Also just found out that the guy who stole my account has been trying to smear my name to people who have/do know me. As part of this, he's also doxxing my RL info. Heh.
Its funny how mad some people get. Not sure how you'd manage to get your account stolen though. :rolleyes:
http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/5...vE-Multiboxing
We'll see how long it takes CCP to ban me :)
If they don't, I'll take that as tacit approval of everything I'm doing here.
Changed link from direct YouTube link to your video thread so that people can discuss what's happening in your video thread rather than potentially derail these other threads.
-MiRai
1.5-2b per hour for 20 accounts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosg2
:(
I guess it's super safe cause :hisec:, but eh. That's pretty horrible isk/char(and in general considering TWENTY accounts). How much were you making running c5s post blue loot change with your setup? I downsized 2 of my gilas due to computer issues (I need a new gfx card I think, maybe a better cpu, tho dunno, I don't like being unable to record my stuff) recently, but with my original 11 char setup I was pulling about 1.2-1.5/hour - that was with low sp chars and in an entirely nonoptimized setup (I could run pve fits, but I'm lazy and would rather be able to take a fight if I get jumped than make more isk/h).
Also, I gotta chat with you sometimeish. :)
Dammit Lords you're making me wanna join your alliance, or at the very least hang out and bullshit on TS.
I hadn't run any C5 sites after the blue loot change. If I can get each site down to 12 minutes, which I think is more than doable, it'd be more like 1.7-2b an hour. That's pretty good for being in hisec, though not mind-blowing.
Cash in WH space isn't a problem. The issue is constantly needing other people to scout, scan, tackle, bubble etc. The biggest draw to multiboxing, for me, is being pretty much self-sufficient. There's not so much of that in WH space :/
Well, all 20 of my accounts were banned yesterday for 'Macro Use' while I still had a ticket in about multiboxing. I have not received an email explaining the situation, just a message when I tried to log in. When I do get it, I intend on posting it for everyone's edification.
In other news, a little birdy sent me a copy of a response they got from CCP about multiboxing. I'm presently negotiating its release to the public; in short, though, I'll say that in CCP's view, anything that you do with ISBoxer or a similar program that makes controlling multiple characters faster than alt tabbing is considered a bannable offense.
what a joke....Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosg2
you were doing incursions right? Using Round-Robins / VFX?
Ninja Edit: I am easily of the opinion you were petitioned, a GM probably watched you for 30 seconds and assumed your way too good of a player to not be "cheating" and just decided to ban 20 accounts without asking you what you were doing.
CCP Falcon / Leelo claim that the GM team and the developers are in constant communication and "on the same page".
Why do I find that hard to believe.
The multiplex/input-broadcasting change was made in order to eliminate certain patterns of play that gave those involved unfair advantages over other players. If using any other set up results in same or similar unfair advantages then those patterns of play are clearly not safe to employ and players risk getting banned for it. The end result is an unfair advantage over other users playing the game with the EVE Online client as it is shipped and action will be taken in such cases. The video you linked is in violation of our policies at this point.
Questions regarding specific features or technical aspects of 3rd party tools, over-lays, key-bindings etc. are addressed in the EULA, section 6. A:
2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.
3. You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.
Any unfair advantages over other players by means of macros, key-bindings, overlays, 3rd party tools, etc., are subject to this rule and violations will result in action against users involved.
Whether you are using round robin, input broadcasting, rollovers or some other feature of some other third party software - the end result is much the same. I apologize for repeating myself, but this EULA clause is key:
"2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played."
Please refer to our policies, found here:
http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/
The third party policies page offers clarification on some topics covered in the EULA:
http://community.eveonline.com/suppo...arty-policies/
Best regards,
CCP xxxx
Team Security
~~~
That's the response. I have screenshots, but I'd prefer to try and retain anonymity for the guy brave enough to share.
The basic takeaway is that they don't give a good fuck about how you're doing it--They only care if it makes you faster than alt-tabbing. If the answer is yes, your time is coming. Le sigh.
I also created a reddit post. I would personally like to see the multiboxing post on the CCP forums flamed with the link and/or the email and see if we can get CCP to respond.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments...n_multiboxing/
if they are going to come out with the opinion that you cannot be faster than someone who is alt-tabbing then they need to tell us specifically how fast you're allowed to be.
if I send a command every. 5 seconds am I in violation of the rule which they won't describe this is completely ridiculous
Sorry to hear that mosg2 or though i love watching your videos i don't get eve a nulf to play it. why did they just not say at the start eve = mutiboxing = ban.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosg2
it seems more and more games are banning it now. or not even letting you do it from the start maybe isboxer got to good.
Hi Mosg2,
Sorry to hear about your loss. I'm going to cancel my eve subs.
As far as what ebony said about more games banning it now. I think we have more options than ever actually, as far as games go - at least with isboxer.
Eve is just such a serious game, and there are tons of HUGE groups of thugs out there. They way it's structured, they can really make a stink about anything in large numbers.
Before everyone unsubs their accounts please vote for CSM 10 Candidates that you agree with on multiboxing.
1-2 CSM 9 members caused this and with proper campaigning we can get it reversed.
Did nobody post it over on the multiboxing post on the Eve forums, or was it trimmed?
I posted in the eve thread the voting list.
Sorry to hear about the ban Mosg2. You are the best Isboxer I know. It's a shame they have a witch hunt out for Isboxer. I am letting my accounts expire. It's just no fun anymore. I tried to cope with the change but I have to restrict my game play so much that it's no longer fun.
Thanks for the support guys. I knew when I resubbed in late January that there was a 50-60% chance of getting banned; I wasn't walking into it blind. I figured if I did get banned it'd make it easier to go back to WoW, and if I didn't then I could have fun getting ships blown up :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosg2
Mosg2 wow isboxer setup :) can not wait!