I think I'd have more belief in Blizzards high ideals if more was done to stop bots and gold selling which go hand in hand. While periodically people are banned in large numbers it doesn't happen often enough.
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I think I'd have more belief in Blizzards high ideals if more was done to stop bots and gold selling which go hand in hand. While periodically people are banned in large numbers it doesn't happen often enough.
No, actually, they didn't. It had to be discovered and decoded. You know what they say about the best intentions....... it's a lot easier to fall over the edge when you are right next to it than a mile away.Quote:
Blizzard told everyone about Warden when it was first released.
If you don't like my opinions or being kept abreast of the direct AND indirect changes to the boxing community (better OR worse) then go elsewhere. I have spent a tremendous amount of time and effort distilling information for the community and not EVERYTHING is going to be embraced by everybody. That's life. I try to keep away from botting or other explicit topics that Bliz frowns upon. I don't and have never botted but I like to understand how things work. This community, at times, fosters frank discussions and open and honest exchanges of opinion. I believe people should be kept informed of what is going on and if that winds up being controversial then so be it.Quote:
Not to mention this isn't the first time Xzin has posted something unrelated to multi-boxing in the general forums that has turned into an opinionated flame fest. Please move this shit out of here.
The world we live in is not all rainbows and candy canes. If you want that, I suggest you post to the official WoW forums. If you have something meaningful to contribute then I (and others) welcome the discussion. But please don't troll the forums accusing people who have greatly contributed to this community of making inappropriate posts.
Technically this has absolutely nothing to do with boxing aside from it being about the game that most of us box in. The discussions within also don't touch boxing, and the only relevant way it would touch boxing is if blizzard decides to use warden to target boxers. It fits more in MMORPG general discussion, but it doesn't seem like posts get moved around here much, not that they need to considering there aren't many off topic threads here, and the few that do come up(like this one) are of interest to the people in said forum.
These forums are loosely moderated, and it seems to work well as is. As long as there isn't a bias that this gets to stay in this forum section just because xzin posted it I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be here.
Now to get back on topic...
Before you can log in after each patch you have to accept the tos and elua, which pretty much says you have to trust blizzard with running unknown(to you) code on your computer. The only change here is that now it is harder to figure out what it does for those who break the rules.
Was there anything stopping blizzard from running 'bad code' before 2.3, other than it being easier to detect?
There was nothing that was stopping them. The diffrence between now and then, was that prior to 2.3 this was being "policed" by the Botting communities. It is now more difficult as Blizzard can pretty much introduce a new scan/malicious code more "unnoticably" this is due to everyones hashed scans looking diffrent. Where-as before everyone's looked the same, despite their being many diffrent scans. We knew before that Warden worked in-process, although now it makes it a lot more difficult to know what its actually doing.
Having the botting communities 'police' the game they are trying to cheat in is like asking burglars to make sure everyone locks their doors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilbur
As someone has said before this is more about the increased difficulty botters now have to make a) their software work and b)sure they don't get caught. Than it is about Blizzard (a well known big business, who can't just dissappear if their system is used for illegal activities) using encryption to send data back to their servers.
In fact if you for a moment ignore the reason Warden exists you could say that they are being good to their customers by encrypting their details before sending them over an in effect open data stream.
If any other group of WoW fans with a few exceptions (tin foil hat brigade) had found this out there wouldn't have been this outcry, Warden is a piece of software that is intended to make the game a leveller playing field for those of us who don't run 'illegal' third party apps.
Perhaps it sets a precedent, perhaps not. I don't think people are going to leave the game in droves and that would be the only way that Blizzard could be encouraged to remove this version of Warden.
Yes, the fact that you could detect it. Now, for the time being, you cannot.Quote:
Was there anything stopping blizzard from running 'bad code' before 2.3, other than it being easier to detect?
I'm still confused about the actual issue.
From what I've read, the only change to Warden is it now encrypts the data it sends to Blizzard. Nothing about running new malicious code, about opening holes in your system to allow malicious programs in, just encrypting outbound data.
1. We already run Blizzard software. We trust their executables. Every time a patch comes out, we run a new file that we know is going to modify files on our system. In fact, we have to run it as an administrator to do so. I see no threads saying "OMG, we should be able to patch as a guest user to safeguard our privacy!"
2. As someone else stated, Blizzard already has our credit card information, address, email, full name, etc. What exactly are you worried they're going to "steal?"
3. Rootkit? WTF? A rootkit is fundamentally different than Warden. A rootkit prevents you from uninstalling it. Warden only runs when you have WoW open. Rootkits try to take over your computer. Warden doesn't.
I have no doubt that the encryption will be broken quickly, and people will see what data was being sent. Blizzard will then just change their encryption to try to keep a couple steps ahead. If people actually find objectionable data being sent then I can see a cause for concern.
We can still see what warden is doing if we want to.
A program doesn’t run in a vacuum, it can still be observed even if it's perfectly encrypted....
It gets its information from somewhere... Even if warden had some magical, perfect, unbreakable encryption, we can still see what it is doing because the programs/hardware it's requesting the information from are not encrypted.
For example, it’s asking windows what programs are running, we can see that.
If it requests the contents of a directory, we can see that.
If it requests the contents of a file, we can see that.
The difference is that we can no longer check and see what it's looking for by checking warden. (aka, we can see if it's scanning what programs are running, but cant tell what pattern it is scanning for)
They will not be scanning all files.
They might scan all exe files, and/or dll files, but they will not be checking out the contents of our word files.
They can scan my exe/dll/etc all they want...
If they start touching my doc and xls files it's time for a lawsuit.
The basis of this thread is FUD.
(Fear Uncertainty and Doubt)
Blizzard has a goal to eliminate cheating in their game. Something which you can choose to play or not. If you aren't satisfied with Blizzard scanning your filesystem (where they can ZOMG see your personalz stuffs!). Don't play. You agree to it in the EULA. If you think the risks are greater then the benefit, DON'T PLAY. They aren't forcing you to play, it isn't the only game available. It's a choice you made. Deal with it.
If you don't trust Norton anti-virus to scan your system, don't buy it. Sense a similarity?
The 2 changes everyone is in concerned about, are only changes that affect bot makers. The ability to see what warden is doing, is still available. As stated above, every system call it makes is STILL VISIBLE.
The change is that they don't know what warden is GOING TO DO, BEFORE IT HAPPENS. Hence they all of a sudden become very vulnerable.
Warden is NOT A ROOT KIT. Therefore it is still detectable by the OS, and can have its actions monitored by other processes. It can still be detected IN WoW, a root-kit is created to prevent the above from happening. The only change here is that people can't reverse engineer Warden, and predict what it is going to do before it happens. Now you can only monitor what it does WHEN it happens.
So zomg, whats happening, its encrypted! ZOMG!.
Encryption is used on so many levels on your system, the fact that WoW traffic isn't encrypted should be more concerning then it being encrypted now. How do you like your password being sent plain-text over teh interwebs. You don't do that for ANY OTHER REPUTABLE SITE YOU VISIT. (check for Https)
Furthermore, the encryption is being used to hide traffic from warden to the servers. Therefore no one can see what warden is saying to the wow servers. Oh god no? They could be sending personal information?
Well to get the personal information, they have to get it off your system. This can be monitored by programs, as it is not root-kitted. Hence your fears are unbased.
Polymorphic wuzathingy? Polymorphic code is code that performs basically the same actions, with changes in its byte structure. The whole intent of polymorphic code is to prevent detection from scanning software. The version of polymorphic code that blizzard is using, is almost a falcity, as it (from what I read), isn't changing it self (as polymophic code would), but is mearly 318 versions of warden being used.
These 318 version present problems to BOT writers, because they don't have time to react to changes in warden to circumvent detection. Even moreso, blizzard was smart enough to ensure that encryption algorithyms are changed for each of these versions (yay!), so that they aren't using the same key over and over again (makig it easy to crack).
So end result of these changes are this:
*You can't veiw wardens traffic to the server, therefore its harder to detect what it is doing/sending. Only really a concern to bot developers, as the quicker they can find out what warden is scannign for, the quicker they can avoid said scans.
*You can't predict what warden is going to be used. Therefore you don't know what scans its going to do, and how to avoid them. (GG Bots)
*Warden is not a root-kit. Its actions are still visible to the OS. It's not hidden. You can still have a high level process monitor your filesystem access requests, to see if warden is accessing your tax returns.
So take off your tinhat. And if you want a tinhat, stop playing.
As someone else already pointed out they are certainly going about it in the most complicated and self defeating way possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Suvega
Who even reads the EULA? Just because they put something in the EULA does not make it legally binding.Quote:
Something which you can choose to play or not. If you aren't satisfied with Blizzard scanning your filesystem (where they can ZOMG see your personalz stuffs!). Don't play. You agree to it in the EULA. If you think the risks are greater then the benefit, DON'T PLAY. They aren't forcing you to play, it isn't the only game available. It's a choice you made. Deal with it.
And who monitors their system all the time?Quote:
If you don't trust Norton anti-virus to scan your system, don't buy it. Sense a similarity?
The 2 changes everyone is in concerned about, are only changes that affect bot makers. The ability to see what warden is doing, is still available. As stated above, every system call it makes is STILL VISIBLE.
The change is that they don't know what warden is GOING TO DO, BEFORE IT HAPPENS. Hence they all of a sudden become very vulnerable.
I would be very surprised if your WoW password was ever sent in plain text. I'd like to see proof of that.Quote:
Warden is NOT A ROOT KIT. Therefore it is still detectable by the OS, and can have its actions monitored by other processes. It can still be detected IN WoW, a root-kit is created to prevent the above from happening. The only change here is that people can't reverse engineer Warden, and predict what it is going to do before it happens. Now you can only monitor what it does WHEN it happens.
So zomg, whats happening, its encrypted! ZOMG!.
Encryption is used on so many levels on your system, the fact that WoW traffic isn't encrypted should be more concerning then it being encrypted now. How do you like your password being sent plain-text over teh interwebs. You don't do that for ANY OTHER REPUTABLE SITE YOU VISIT. (check for Https)
Again, who monitors their systems all the time?Quote:
Furthermore, the encryption is being used to hide traffic from warden to the servers. Therefore no one can see what warden is saying to the wow servers. Oh god no? They could be sending personal information?
Well to get the personal information, they have to get it off your system. This can be monitored by programs, as it is not root-kitted. Hence your fears are unbased.
I read it differently. There are 318 different versions detected so far. With the current functionality they can "inject" a new version anytime they want to.Quote:
Polymorphic wuzathingy? Polymorphic code is code that performs basically the same actions, with changes in its byte structure. The whole intent of polymorphic code is to prevent detection from scanning software. The version of polymorphic code that blizzard is using, is almost a falcity, as it (from what I read), isn't changing it self (as polymophic code would), but is mearly 318 versions of warden being used.
The argument is that it does not just present problems to bot writers but to anyone who actually wants to verify that each of these versions are "safe".Quote:
These 318 version present problems to BOT writers, because they don't have time to react to changes in warden to circumvent detection. Even moreso, blizzard was smart enough to ensure that encryption algorithyms are changed for each of these versions (yay!), so that they aren't using the same key over and over again (makig it easy to crack).
I would like entertainment providers to provide entertainment without me having to worry about potential security issues. Would you like to go to the cinema if they made you walk through metal detectors and pawed through anything you carried with you to check for hidden cameras etc?Quote:
So end result of these changes are this:
*You can't veiw wardens traffic to the server, therefore its harder to detect what it is doing/sending. Only really a concern to bot developers, as the quicker they can find out what warden is scannign for, the quicker they can avoid said scans.
*You can't predict what warden is going to be used. Therefore you don't know what scans its going to do, and how to avoid them. (GG Bots)
*Warden is not a root-kit. Its actions are still visible to the OS. It's not hidden. You can still have a high level process monitor your filesystem access requests, to see if warden is accessing your tax returns.
So take off your tinhat. And if you want a tinhat, stop playing.
Currently the "layman" implicitly trusts Warden and probably does not even know what it is or what it does. Personally I really hate the fact that a process running on my machine can look at other processes without my permission. I believe that kind of process rights should be easily manageable at O/S level.
If I want to do internet banking I should be able to open my browser and do my banking without having to worry about which other processes are running on my machine. But MS seems more interested in giving us transparent buttons with rounded edges.
As to "botting", their whole game design is suited to it. Repetition, repetition, repetition, ad nauseum. I quit 2 end game raiding characters because that is all end game raiding is about. Same instances, same bosses, again and again and again to gear a raid. Rinse, repeat.
Instead of looking at things they can do server side they prefer to outsource detection technology that runs on the client and can be a potential security risk.
Instead of addressing the in-game mechanics that make botting possible or the reason that a gold buying market exists we will instead install very complicated software that communicates with our servers and gathers information from other running processes or installed applications on your machine and encrypt whatever information we are sending.
We will pour a lot of money into developing this tool that will sit on your machine checking if you are cheating or not while we will continue employing a skeleton staff of GMs with an average response time measured in hours, sometimes days, that never responds in time to catch botters in the act.
Why do I still play? I have some friends that play and multi-boxing is my current toy. I am sick of WoW though and the endless repetition.
Am I concerned about Warden being a security risk? Not really, but it is the paranoid that ensures we enjoy the freedom that we do and I don't dismiss them out of hand.
tldr version:
Suvega: If you want to know what warden is looking at do so and so.
Thinus: But noone does so and so.
Zaelar: Then start doing so and so.
long version
The only complicated part is making it harder to detect and get around. I don't see how it is self defeating.Quote:
As someone else already pointed out they are certainly going about it in the most complicated and self defeating way possible.
Considering you have to agree to the EULA to play... If you move into an apartment and sign something that you don't know, and it turns out that it says your landlord can take pictures of you in the shower, you won't be winning any legal battles there.Quote:
Who even reads the EULA? Just because they put something in the EULA does not make it legally binding.
People who want to know what warden is doing.Quote:
And who monitors their system all the time?
Monitor your internet traffic? I don't know either way, but that should give you the proof you want. Outside of that you won't get anything other than someone saying it does.Quote:
I would be very surprised if your WoW password was ever sent in plain text. I'd like to see proof of that.
Again, people who want to know what warden is doing.Quote:
Again, who monitors their systems all the time?
IIRC they could always do that.Quote:
I read it differently. There are 318 different versions detected so far. With the current functionality they can "inject" a new version anytime they want to.
I'd say monitor your system all the time, but who does that?Quote:
The argument is that it does not just present problems to bot writers but to anyone who actually wants to verify that each of these versions are "safe".
I take it you're getting at if movie theaters did something that you don't like as a security measure you wouldn't go to movie theaters. So if wow is doing something that you don't like as a security measure, don't play wow.Quote:
Would you like to go to the cinema if they made you walk through metal detectors and pawed through anything you carried with you to check for hidden cameras etc?
It has your permission. Remember that EULA you didn't read but agreed to? Want to start guessing what you agreed to?Quote:
Personally I really hate the fact that a process running on my machine can look at other processes without my permission.
Chicken Little(aka, botter wanting to get a panic started): No one can check the content of warden updates anymore!!! They could patch a virus or steal CC information!!!
Me: I'd be happy to sign an agreement saying they could install a virus once a year if it stopped you. (As much as I hate doing it, reinstalling would be a small price to pay)
Chicken Little: Well, They could steal your CC information!!
Me: I GAVE them my CC information more than a year ago. They already have that.
Chicken Little: But you don't know what they are scanning!
Me: I know they are not scanning protected files on my computer, and other than that I don't CARE what they are scanning.
Chicken Little: Well, I meant that an employee could install a new version that takes your CC information and resorts it to them!
Me: An encrypted packet still needs an IP address to go to. If WoW suddenly started sending information to some "bellsouth.net" IP, tons of people would know right away.
Chicken Little: ...
Me: I'm in far more danger surfing the web, downloading a driver update, or even reading my mail. I'm 100 times more worried that the next waiter I give my card to at Red Lobster will write down my CC information than that some Blizzard employee will manage to get undetected access to my computer.
Me: No computer connected to the internet is secure. The internet itself isn't secure by it's very nature. Any OS (Windows, Mac, or Linux) has security problems. The best we can do is keep our patches current. Then we hope that when some new way of getting in is discovered, we are not one of the first ones hit.
This depends A LOT on which country you live in. The American laws aren't global, ya know :P For starters, such an agreement would be seen invalid in Norway, as it has a unreasonable condition which has nothing to do with the innitial contract and it's purpose, which is letting you live in the appartment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaelar
To draw some lines from that to WoW, if the TOA, for instance, said "you have to give all the gear to a GM when you've played for sixty days", then the validability of that clause would deffinetly be questioned, in a norwegian courtroom, anyways.
So, from *my* point of view, wether or not the EULA and/or ToA is valid at all, can be questioned, also because it's something you have to agree with AFTER you've purchused the game.
It's like selling a car and then come dragging with a bigass contract the buyer have to sign if he( or she) wants to drive it.
All else aside, they can take ur gear etc any time they like, their terms state very clearly that ALL of the game content is theirs, including characters, gold, gear etc, there's no way around that regardless. This is why selling accounts, gold, toons etc on Ebay isn't allowed, you don't own anything apart from the game CD's and the right to play within their rules and conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippieman
Ok, so that was a bad example, but still, you see the retardedness of selling something to a person and THEN, when they plan on USING it, you throw another set of regulations and terms at them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shogun
the EULA and the TOS & TOU for the US, EU, KR, CN and TW version of the game are different to obied by the laws for each countries and areas the game covers.
Odd, seeing as a UK friend of mine helped me to check this out and ours were the same(, as far as we could be bothered to check, that is :P)Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic_Clown
But anyways, the EULA, TOS and TOU cannot be called "illegal" or "invalid" before it has been tried in a court of law. If only someone would sue blizzard and see what the court would say, it would be rather interesting in my opinnion.
Trust me there are differences ;)
EULA - End User License Agreement, is an agreement between your self and the company and thus being a contract between you and blizzard.
In a court of law even a verbal agreement can be binding when two parties make a consensual agreement.
By creating an account you basicly sign the agreement and for the continuation of the service when patchs and updates come out that you have to accept to the agreement, you have the option at every patch to either accept the renewal of the agreement or the cancel and decline the agreement.
Its the fundamental law backing contacts agreements, blizzard give you the option to terminate the agreement and not carry on.
Same fundamentals on any agreement, there maybe sections which could be unlawful but if they were someone would of Sued and won by now, and AFAIK the EULA doesnt break any rules because at the end of the day the EULA words it as you RENT/LEASE your account and have the power to terminate the account at any point with no reason.
The power lies with them.
sorry I'm deviating from the actual thread topic, sorry.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Hippieman
Quote:
YOU SHOULD CAREFULLY READ THE FOLLOWING WORLD OF WARCRAFT TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT (THE "TERMS OF USE" OR "AGREEMENT"). IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH ALL OF THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU MUST CLICK "REJECT." IF YOU REJECT THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER FIRST PURCHASING THE WORLD OF WARCRAFT SOFTWARE, YOU MAY CALL (800)757-7707 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE. ONCE YOU AGREE TO THE TERMS OF USE AND THE END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT (EULA), YOU WILL NO LONGER BE ELIGIBLE FOR A REFUND.
Now that's just proving *I* didn't read it :P Curse blizzard and them covering all of their bases! (and pardon the slight wander off-topic)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyndree
How many of the 9 million WoW subscribers read the ToS/EULA every time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaelar
How many of the 9 million WoW subscribers understands what Warden is doing or are able to monitor what Warden is doing?
This is why you have consumer protection laws. This is why you should be thankful for paranoid people as they provide a layer of protection you don't even seem to be aware of.
---
Why is their approach self defeating? We introduce highly tedious and repetitive mechanisms to achieve goals, we just can't understand why people macro!
We introduce a currency of gold and the way to earn gold is to do tedious and repetitive tasks, we just can't understand why people buy gold!
For a lot of people we have gotten to the point where they have a skeleton gaming machine where they don't care what is accessed because there is nothing sensitive on it. You think this is acceptable? Why don't all games just get developed for consoles and we scrap PC games completely.
And people keep saying "if you don't like it don't play". The same with my cinema example. Your immediate response is then don't go. I like the cinema and I would like to keep going to the cinema and I would REALLY like it if there are consumer laws that protect my rights and prevent big corporations from doing anything they like to protect their own interests.
MMORPGs I played all had the same repetitive model, the "grind". All of them had farmers / gold sellers / leveling services. The model hasn't changed much since the first MUD Lars Pensk wrote. So now we are in a situation where gaming companies feel the need to install scanning software on their clients' machines to combat automation of highly repetive tasks to meet a market created because people with real money don't want to spend endless hours doing those repetitive tasks.
Some guy in the US that is running a 100 account bot farm will now have to move his operation to a 3rd world country and cut his profits to employ 100 people for pitiful wages. Yes, we are really making inroads into eliminating botting, aren't we?
I have a product/service I would like to sell. It's a subscription based service, and it took alot of hard work to create it. Sure, it has problems -- every product isn't perfect for everyone - but my main goal is to gain income from the subscription fees.Quote:
Originally Posted by thinus
A portion of my consumers are ruining my income by devaluing my product by automating human behavior. This will make my human consumers not want to continue subscribing, and the people automating are gaining income from the misuse of my product.
I would REALLY like it if there were agreements that protect my rights and prevent botters from doing anything they like to protect their own interests.
Too bad nobody ever reads my EULA before they click "accept".
I mean, if there are consumer laws to protect their rights, and I'm overstepping my bounds, the consumers could sue me. But they haven't... I wonder why...
Not to pain a pain in the arse ;) but oh the art of Fisking let me try thee aswell.
Self defeating? How? By upsetting security 'enthusiasts' and bot creaters? Who else cares?Quote:
As someone else already pointed out they are certainly going about it in the most complicated and self defeating way possible.
Actually, it does.Quote:
Who even reads the EULA? Just because they put something in the EULA does not make it legally binding.
Reference - http://www.us-cert.gov/reading_room/EULA.pdf
Hint: Read "Why EULA's are important"
As stated by others, they could always change warden on the fly. The only difference is that they have different versions running concurently, something which wasn't done before.Quote:
I read it differently. There are 318 different versions detected so far. With the current functionality they can "inject" a new version anytime they want to.
If you're concerned, monitor the warden process for which system calls it makes. If it does something shady, report it online and watch the backlash to Blizzard become huge. Not to mention court cases. Blizzard has ALWAYS had the ability to f' with your system, however it is VERY disadvantageous for them to do so.Quote:
The argument is that it does not just present problems to bot writers but to anyone who actually wants to verify that each of these versions are "safe".
The ONLY thing this change does it make it take longer to PREDICT what it is going to do. You can still SEE what it does.
It is their right to do so. They already spy on you with infared cameras to try to detect you stealing their work.Quote:
I would like entertainment providers to provide entertainment without me having to worry about potential security issues. Would you like to go to the cinema if they made you walk through metal detectors and pawed through anything you carried with you to check for hidden cameras etc?
Think: If everyone hated the searches enough that they wouldn't go, cinemas would have to change to keep customers.
You're applying a "I don't like it, but I don't have the self-restraint to do something about it" mentality that plagues the players/people.
Any process can veiw another... in XP I believe.Quote:
Currently the "layman" implicitly trusts Warden and probably does not even know what it is or what it does. Personally I really hate the fact that a process running on my machine can look at other processes without my permission. I believe that kind of process rights should be easily manageable at O/S level.
Furthermore, find an OS that doesn't allow process scanning.
This is not a Blizz problem, it’s an OS feature request.
Buy vista, it fixes this concern with trusted vs untrusted applcations. When an untrusted application tries to perform something that only a trusted can do, the user is prompted to verify.Quote:
If I want to do internet banking I should be able to open my browser and do my banking without having to worry about which other processes are running on my machine. But MS seems more interested in giving us transparent buttons with rounded edges.
However the 'layman' doesn't care as you point out. Which is why most people hate the pop-up boxes, and usually disable them manually. However for paranoid people like yourself, it would be a welcome addition I suppose.
IE7 even mentions “hey, you’re visiting an untrusted zone”, but usually people click the “Don’t prompt me again” box and click OK, eliminating this saftey guard.
If you don't like the game don't play it. Many many things are good for a comptuer to do, but are considered cheating none-the-less.Quote:
As to "botting", their whole game design is suited to it. Repetition, repetition, repetition, ad nauseum. I quit 2 end game raiding characters because that is all end game raiding is about. Same instances, same bosses, again and again and again to gear a raid. Rinse, repeat.
Online poker for example? Perfect for computer AI players, however online poker uses the same type of measures blizzard does to stop said botting. However I don't think you would complain about poker...
Server side can only go so far, as has been said before. Honestly the only people who care about the security precautions are paranoid security 'enthusiasts', and bot creaters.Quote:
Instead of looking at things they can do server side they prefer to outsource detection technology that runs on the client and can be a potential security risk.
Daily quests are directly targeted for removing gold farming companies.Quote:
Instead of addressing the in-game mechanics that make botting possible or the reason that a gold buying market exists we will instead install very complicated software that communicates with our servers and gathers information from other running processes or installed applications on your machine and encrypt whatever information we are sending.
1hr delays in mail are directly tagetted for removing gold farming.
/reportspam is directly targetted at helping users help patrol gold spam.
You have no data to support that GM's don't catch botters in action. Quite the opposite is true if you look at several botting program forums. They use tactics such as:Quote:
We will pour a lot of money into developing this tool that will sit on your machine checking if you are cheating or not while we will continue employing a skeleton staff of GMs with an average response time measured in hours, sometimes days, that never responds in time to catch botters in the act.
- Moving character far distances to see if it recovers
- Making mobes evade
- Moving mobs underground to see if they are still targetted
- Etc
Even moreso botters have suspicion that bans are actually delayed on purpose to make a big noise in botting community – hence the “Ban Hammer” or “Ban Waves” where individual bans are postponed so they can monitor your other botting activities and catch you in the act of botting 10 accounts rather than insta-banning just one
Furthermore Blizz has made mistakes banning Linux users thinking they were bots. It may be advantageous to the EULA-abiding consumer that they DO delay so that they can make sure they’re not making a mistake.
How many dual-boxers have been whispered with “Botter!” or “Hacker!”? Would you like a GM to have the ability to insta-ban you based on opinion from circumstancial server data; without having hard data to back it up simply because they don’t understand what dual-boxing is? Has anyone had to deal with the no-phone-number, 1-week email response time account administration to get their account back?
I love the analogy that someone used above, something like "Having hackers and botters 'ensuring' security in a system is the same as theifs ensuring security at a retail establishment"Quote:
Am I concerned about Warden being a security risk? Not really, but it is the paranoid that ensures we enjoy the freedom that we do and I don't dismiss them out of hand.
You can say that Blizzard just put a retina scan on all of its doors, and the theifs are spreading rumors that these iris scans could burn your eyeballs! zomg.
You're derailing the topic. Not to mention consumer protections laws were created to stop scams, injury, and unavoidable unknown consequences. You know what you're accepting, as you have accepted the TOS. A Legally binding agreement.Quote:
I would REALLY like it if there are consumer laws that protect my rights and prevent big corporations from doing anything they like to protect their own interests.
Unlike you, I enjoy the game enough to play. If you honestly dislike the games so much, then don't play them. Again you present the mindless "I don't like it, but I lack self-restraint to stop myself" model.Quote:
MMORPGs I played all had the same repetitive model, the "grind". All of them had farmers / gold sellers / leveling services. The model hasn't changed much since the first MUD Lars Pensk wrote. So now we are in a situation where gaming companies feel the need to install scanning software on their clients' machines to combat automation of highly repetive tasks to meet a market created because people with real money don't want to spend endless hours doing those repetitive tasks.
Lastly:Before we even get into the (very offtopic) subject of globalization, outsourcing, and its either positive or negative consequences...Quote:
Some guy in the US that is running a 100 account bot farm will now have to move his operation to a 3rd world country and cut his profits to employ 100 people for pitiful wages. Yes, we are really making inroads into eliminating botting, aren't we?
(Recommend reading "The world if flat", great read on the subject)
Blizzard, HAS and will continue to change its gaming model to better suite the concerns players have. Instead of mindlessly grinding primals, you can select from a multitude of fun, interesting, and even lore driven daily quests.
On a total off-note... Is this blizzard's problem? Or the lazy consumer's?Quote:
Originally Posted by thinus
I mean, it's not like you have to scroll down to the bottom and click "I accept" both the ToU and the EULA EVERY SINGLE TIME there's a patch. *rolleyes*
It's just so inconvenient to actually read documents before you sign a legally binding agreement.
Do these same 9 million customers actually READ their taxes before signing the form?
Do these same 9 million customers actually READ their rental agreements?
What about their work contracts?
Divorce agreements?
Blizzard has clearly been hiding its rules and regulations from the mass player base. The sneaky bastages.
Oh right, how many people have quit because of botting opposed to the amount of people that buy gold / characters or to the amount of bot accounts that actually pay a subscribtion. Those subscribtion numbers really plumetted recently because of all the botting, didn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyndree
And show me the effectivity figures of Warden. How many botters / gold sellers has it put out of business? How many accounts have been banned directly due to Warden? Show me the percentage of botters that are directly impacted by Warden.
A lot of botting is also not for commercial gain but really people just automating repetitive tasks.
The *REAL* problem is not botting, the problem is gold selling and farming. Botting is a side effect and easily circumvented by gold sellers and farmers and it is immensely difficult to detect as farming is essentially a core design pattern for them.
Funny how you don't even mention the normal legitimate consumer. They have no rights apparently. Woohoo!Quote:
I would REALLY like it if there were agreements that protect my rights and prevent botters from doing anything they like to protect their own interests.
They don't care if you read it or not. The only reason for its existence is to protect themselves.Quote:
Too bad nobody ever reads my EULA before they click "accept".
You don't get it at all, do you? There is nothing to sue over as no real loss has occured yet. People are concerned about the *potential* for loss. I would prefer not to have software on my machine that scans my machine and then sends encrypted information out. In addition, that software can be remotely replaced without my knowledge. The *potential* for privacy violations should be very evident.Quote:
I mean, if there are consumer laws to protect their rights, and I'm overstepping my bounds, the consumers could sue me. But they haven't... I wonder why...
So you read the ToS/EULA every single patch?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyndree
Have any kids that play WoW? Do you read the ToS / EULA after a patch before you let them play?
I would like to see a case where someone suffers some real loss to see if it would stand up in a court and I am willing to bet money that it won't.
And you get to mindlessly grind them every day, yay!Quote:
Originally Posted by Suvega
I do, actually. Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by thinus
You know, I like to know what's in the documents I'm legally signing.
I don't find it mindless.Quote:
Originally Posted by thinus
I mean, it's a subject of opinion. I like to listen to audiobooks while I "mindlessly" grind. Or maybe talk to Suvega. Or maybe other friends on Vent. Or maybe watch a little TV.
I'm sure some people consider hopscotch to be mindless.
Or boxing.
Or playing catch.
Or mathematics.
Or watching TV.
Or knitting.
Or reading a book.
Or quantum physics.
Or daydreaming.
Or drawing.
Or breathing.
I mean, it's a matter of opinion. Some people like certain things, some people don't. I don't like playing first person shooters. Maybe it's because it's mindlessly boring to shoot anything that moves. Maybe because I have bad hand eye coordination. My solution? I don't play FPS games. I don't buy them, I don't click the "I accept" on the EULA/TOU for FPS games, I don't install them on my computer.
The fact is, you clicked "I agree". You knew you SHOULD read the TOU/EULA. In fact, you were AGREEING that you understood, read, and agreed to it. You didn't. You lied. In a contract. Now you want protection? Because a bot developer found out that he can't PREDICT what warden is doing anymore?
I mean, Warden was just as transparent when you signed the agreement as it is now. In the terms of use, Blizz noted that they can change Warden at any time. You clicked "I agree" to that EULA/TOU. Now, Blizzard decided that they're going to change Warden dynamically. You can still see what it pokes around in after it pokes around, same as before. Only this time, botters can't predict where they're going to poke around based on a distinct pattern.
Just because 9 million people decide that jumping off a bridge is a good idea doesn't mean you should too. You don't even have facts to support that 9 million people don't read the EULA/TOU. You're just assuming, because YOU are lazy, that 9 million people are also lazy.
Now, I'm not suggesting you stop BREATHING or doing other necessary "mindless" things, but I mean... You have CHOICES here. There are plenty of MMO's and other hobbies that don't use warden -- maybe one of them will be mentally engaging to you. In fact, dual-boxing.com isn't wow-dual-boxing.com. Try a new game. Get out a little.
I mean, if you do consider WoW to be "mindless", I suggest you find another hobby. This one seems a bit too negatively addictive for your personality. Unless, of course, you enjoy masochism.
You certainly ask for a bunch of figures but don't really give any in return, don't you? Give me hard data that botters/gold farmers/RMT does NOT impact game economies.Quote:
Originally Posted by thinus
In the end, it's in the rules, botting is not allowed.
My OPINION? It ruins the game economy, which in turn causes legitimate players to leave because the game becomes too hard to play "normally". Why do we have to wait for the game to be ruined before we try and prevent this from happening?
The truth is, nobody needs data. Blizzard supports neither gold selling, transfer of accounts, real money trade, botting, automating, hacking, etc. It's their game, they can run it how they want. Personally, I like this stance, and I support their efforts to keep the game economy stable and bot-free.
They are very clear, in their terms and eula, that this includes scanning my computer. I, having read the agreement, find this acceptable. If they start putting viruses on my computer, I will sue their butt off. But until then, it is acceptable. If it's not acceptable for you, you should not have clicked "I agree".
Farming is in their design, but trading gold for real world money is expressly forbidden. Botting is also expressly forbidden.Quote:
The *REAL* problem is not botting, the problem is gold selling and farming. Botting is a side effect and easily circumvented by gold sellers and farmers and it is immensely difficult to detect as farming is essentially a core design pattern for them.
If you don't like playing soccer, don't buy the jersey, don't sign the waiver, don't join the team, don't play the game.
I can't help it that your interests and likes/dislikes are different then mine. It's human nature, honey. I like pie, you like cake. I'll go get my pie and you go get your cake.
All I have to say is:Quote:
Funny how you don't even mention the normal legitimate consumer. They have no rights apparently. Woohoo!Quote:
I would REALLY like it if there were agreements that protect my rights and prevent botters from doing anything they like to protect their own interests.
You clearly didn't understand the point of my post. We have rights, yes. They're lined out in the EULA/TOU. For example, we have the right to terminate our subscription at any time if we don't agree with the Terms of Use or EULA.Quote:
em·pa·thy /??mp??i/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[em-puh-thee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.
Blizzard, as owner of their intellectual property, also has rights. These are also lined out in the EULA/TOU. You really need to read your legal and binding documents before you sign them. They have the right to put Warden on our computer, and change Warden's behavior at any time without notice, in order to protect THEIR rights and their intellectual property.
You are so concerned about Blizzard MAYBE POSSIBLY SOMEDAY stepping on your rights, when in fact botters/gold sellers/account sellers are breaking Blizzard's rights RIGHT NOW. Did you ever stop to think about that?
People are just too self-centered sometimes.
I care if I'm signing a document that forms a legal contract.Quote:
They don't care if you read it or not. The only reason for its existence is to protect themselves.Quote:
Too bad nobody ever reads my EULA before they click "accept".
You know, there are consumer rights in that document too.
...Oh, right... you didn't read it.
AWESOME! Blizzard has followed their legal agreement and no wrongdoing has been done.Quote:
You don't get it at all, do you? There is nothing to sue over as no real loss has occured yet. People are concerned about the *potential* for loss.Quote:
I mean, if there are consumer laws to protect their rights, and I'm overstepping my bounds, the consumers could sue me. But they haven't... I wonder why...
Oh, wait... what were you saying? You don't like the POTENTIAL for wrongdoing?
Awesome, sounds good. Just take a look at those terms you so hastily accepted to see how you can terminate your contract with Blizzard, cancel payment on your accounts, and stop playing the game.
I mean, if it bothers you so much why do you keep clicking "I agree"? It looks like, to me, that you clearly don't agree with Warden, so you don't agree with the TOU/EULA.
I don't really see why you have such a problem with this. Nobody is pointing a gun at your head and telling you that you have to play WoW. There are plenty of addiction therapy resources available to help you deal with this.
The first step to fixing your addiction is admitting you have one.
If you're not addicted, and you're still playing WoW even though you think your legal rights are being taken away, then there is something seriously wrong. Or, as I said previously, you're just masochistic.
Nice rant trying to psycho analyze me and gg at attacking me personally /golfclap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyndree
I brought up the whole progress through repitition issue as the source of *why* gold farming, gold selling and botting exists in the first place and that it would be more beneficial to treat the disease and not the symptoms. Especially when treating those symptoms involve spyware.
I have also stated that I am not overly concerned with Warden "stealing" anything from my machine. I am however concerned with the principle and the precedent that it is ok to use spyware as part of a game. Where are the lines drawn?
And I profusely apologize for not studiously reading the EULA every patch because I want to be entertained and not swamped in a morass of legaleze.
I'm not sure where you think I'm personally attacking you, I'm honestly concerned about your well being. This sort of thing does not look healthy in your case.Quote:
Nice rant trying to psycho analyze me and gg at attacking me personally /golfclap.
If you're honestly not addicted, excuse me for caring.
So the fault of breaking a legal contract is due to the product and not the person? I personally don't agree with this sentiment, but that's your opinion.Quote:
I brought up the whole progress through repitition issue as the source of *why* gold farming, gold selling and botting exists in the first place and that it would be more beneficial to treat the disease and not the symptoms. Especially when treating those symptoms involve spyware.
Clearly, people are continuing to play this repetitive game. Either they find it fun, or they're addicted. Blizzard's subscription strategy seems to be working.
In the ToU/EULA. But you keep forgetting to read it. If enough people shared your sentiment and felt uncomfortable with spyware in their game, then they wouldn't have agreed to let Blizzard do it, and Blizzard would quickly go out of business running a game without any players.Quote:
I have also stated that I am not overly concerned with Warden "stealing" anything from my machine. I am however concerned with the principle and the precedent that it is ok to use spyware as part of a game. Where are the lines drawn?
You have a right to privacy, I agree.
Have you ever read those signs in banks and other storefronts that say "This building is monitored by video surveillance?" Well, Blizzard said "This service is monitored by Warden surveillance" and you clicked "I agree" and logged into the game. It's not like they've hidden anything from you.
As it is, Warden has been around since WoW's inception. Nobody had a problem with it until the bot-programmers started spreading the rumor that Warden suddenly changed to the point that it was dangerous.
The only change made is that warden is not predictable until after it has done its scan. It has always been dynamically updateable, but now it's just less predictable as to which version is going to run. It's unpredictable because cheaters were able to detect changes and make changes to their technology to keep it out of Blizzard's sight while they stole Blizzard's intellectual property.
It seems like the only victim here is Blizzard. What changed so much in this latest Warden change that has everyone up in arms?
Absolutely nothing.
Paranoia just spreads faster than wildfire.
If you were as concerned about protecting your legal rights as you are seem to be in these posts, I'd highly advise you read these.Quote:
And I profusely apologize for not studiously reading the EULA every patch because I want to be entertained and not swamped in a morass of legaleze.
However, it's also your choice if you decide to lie about reading these documents when you click "I agree" just because you're "too busy"...
I mean, you don't seem "too busy" to read through and reply to all these posts and form a opinion on your legal rights being stepped on without ever having read the legal documents you signed.
Anyway, I'm off for now to go do the "mindless grinding" that I find fun. I think I've made my point, and I won't spam you guys further. ;)
Ta, ta.
There's a very famous poem by Martin Niemöller that goes:
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
Now I'm not suggesting that Blizzard is coming to take you away, rather that we need to keep a close eye on Blizzard when they start making undocumented changes about what is being installed on our PC's.
You may be ok with what Warden is doing now, but you cannot deny Blizzard could potentially gather other information from your PC than just what processes you are running. It's also reasonable to say that Blizzard will only ever act in Blizzard's (Vivendi's) best interests and no-one elses - it is naive to think otherwise.
Personally I would be happy if they just came out and issued a statement saying that this new version of warden is doing nothing other than searching for botting programs (and I'm not talking about the one from 2005).
Blizzard's ToS/EULA's are legally binding however (at least in Australia) certain implied rights always exist and cannot be excluded, restricted or modified. Think of it like signing a lease on an apartment you're renting. Just becuase you don't own the apartment doesnt give the landlord the right to come over any time and start rifling through your possessions. They are however allowed to come and inspect the apartment and make sure it's being used in the manner it's supposed to be...
Cheers,
Stealthy
No, I am not addicted. I have stated before that I have played characters to end game twice and I've quit twice because of the excessive treadmilling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyndree
I only signed up again recently to play with friends and to multi-box. The play with friends part I do more from a companionship point of view. Honestly, it could have been any game. The multi-boxing I am doing to entertain myself and for the challenge because without it I really don't get enough entertainment out of WoW to keep playing it.
How do you get from what I said to what you said?Quote:
So the fault of breaking a legal contract is due to the product and not the person? I personally don't agree with this sentiment, but that's your opinion.Quote:
I brought up the whole progress through repitition issue as the source of *why* gold farming, gold selling and botting exists in the first place and that it would be more beneficial to treat the disease and not the symptoms. Especially when treating those symptoms involve spyware.
I clearly struck a nerve.Quote:
Clearly, people are continuing to play this repetitive game. Either they find it fun, or they're addicted. Blizzard's subscription strategy seems to be working.
If I recall correctly Warden did not form part of WoW until much much later and when it did become part of WoW there was a lot of discussion around it and I have always had a problem with any kind of spyware on my system.Quote:
In the ToU/EULA. But you keep forgetting to read it. If enough people shared your sentiment and felt uncomfortable with spyware in their game, then they wouldn't have agreed to let Blizzard do it, and Blizzard would quickly go out of business running a game without any players.Quote:
I have also stated that I am not overly concerned with Warden "stealing" anything from my machine. I am however concerned with the principle and the precedent that it is ok to use spyware as part of a game. Where are the lines drawn?
You have a right to privacy, I agree.
Have you ever read those signs in banks and other storefronts that say "This building is monitored by video surveillance?" Well, Blizzard said "This service is monitored by Warden surveillance" and you clicked "I agree" and logged into the game. It's not like they've hidden anything from you.
As it is, Warden has been around since WoW's inception. Nobody had a problem with it until the bot-programmers started spreading the rumor that Warden suddenly changed to the point that it was dangerous.
I really don't see anyone up in arms except maybe the bot writer who wrote the original heavily biased article. Biased as the article was it still touched on very real privacy issues which I happen to partly agree with.Quote:
The only change made is that warden is not predictable until after it has done its scan. It has always been dynamically updateable, but now it's just less predictable as to which version is going to run. It's unpredictable because cheaters were able to detect changes and make changes to their technology to keep it out of Blizzard's sight while they stole Blizzard's intellectual property.
It seems like the only victim here is Blizzard. What changed so much in this latest Warden change that has everyone up in arms?
Absolutely nothing.
Paranoia just spreads faster than wildfire.
I would prefer to continue being able to play games without having to worry about spyware on my system. From a moral stand point I have a problem with my television going through my underwear drawer looking for hidden cameras.Quote:
If you were as concerned about protecting your legal rights as you are seem to be in these posts, I'd highly advise you read these.Quote:
And I profusely apologize for not studiously reading the EULA every patch because I want to be entertained and not swamped in a morass of legaleze.
However, it's also your choice if you decide to lie about reading these documents when you click "I agree" just because you're "too busy"...
"Too busy" is your interpretation, I never said that.Quote:
I mean, you don't seem "too busy" to read through and reply to all these posts and form a opinion on your legal rights being stepped on without ever having read the legal documents you signed.
You do your daily quests semi-afk while watching tv or whatever else you mentioned earlier. Sounds like buckets of fun. I would be more concerned with my own addiction than with that of other people if I were you.Quote:
Anyway, I'm off for now to go do the "mindless grinding" that I find fun. I think I've made my point, and I won't spam you guys further. ;)
Ta, ta.
Fun fact:
I don't remember the exact setting or which program this regarded, however a certain developer though it'd be interesting to see how many people actually read the ToS which was related to their program. Somewhere in the ToS they put a small notice, saying something similar to "Call this number and recieve 1 000 dollars".
Out of 50 000, or so, sold copies, one consumer called and recieved the money.
As for the EULA, ToS and ToA, which I still say should be questioned wether they're legally binding or not, seeing as they're changed multiple times after you've paid for x ammount of gametime (wether or not it's stated in the EULA and/or ToS and/or ToA that they can be). Again, I'd love to see it tried in a courtroom.
Sure, you can terminate your subscription, however they still changed a legally binding (or is it? :P) contract which you signed wihtout your approval/you had no say in the change. It's not about wether or not the changes are acceptable or not, it's just the fact that there was made changes that you weren't aware of and/or changes that you had no say in.
As for Warden, I don't mind it at all, I like it when Blizzard are trying to boot the cheaters, the botters and the botting farmers. I don't want to wait another 20 mintues for the elementals to spawn, just because some twat has 10 accounts running server wide farming each and every mote he comes across, using bots.
So what's the point of my posts? I just like debates :wink:
But its ok for a non botter twat to come across with 10 accounts and farm motes?
Yes, seeing as he's actually doing the work and not eating food watching Scrubs /rofl-ing at the whispers he sees when he turns his head every 30 min just to make sure his bot hasn't buggered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xzin
Every time they change the EULA (and often when there's a client patch with no EULA changes!!) you have to re-click on that "I AGREE" button. That IS your approval of the agreement in its entirety.Quote:
they still changed a legally binding (or is it? ) contract which you signed wihtout your approval/you had no say in the change. It's not about wether or not the changes are acceptable or not, it's just the fact that there was made changes that you weren't aware of and/or changes that you had no say in.
In reality, I doubt many people bother reading it.
I certainly don't because I work on the basis of common sense rather than what I consider to be minutiae, but that doesn't change the fact that I have quite clearly agreed -albeit tacitly - to whatever's written there.
I dread to think how long I'd stand at the Hertz counter next time I pick up an airport rental if I was to read the entire A4, small print, agreement before I drove off :shock:
The issue of whether a software EULA agreement is enforceable or not is a long subject of debate with quite a few documented test cases and mixed results.
Perhaps the most relevant such case was between Black Snow (one of the first professional gold farming outfits, based in California / Mexico) and Mythic, where the EULA for their online game Dark Age of Camelot was held to be entirely enforceable.
That was in 2003, so the EULA enforceability discussion is far from new and although perhaps Warden does something different, the discussion as to whether what it does is acceptable or not is quite distinct from the discussion of whether the EULA we all agreed to (and continue to agree to) is enforceable.
I am ill-equipped to have a legal discussion on such matters, but my personal opnion is that people simply should not agree to something they don't actually agree with.
Agreeing to something in the hope that you'll get away with breaking the agreement if push comes to shove just strikes me as bizarre and in the broader context perhaps says more about the person than the Agreement.
I've enjoyed reading the debate here, and my views are unchanged. I want the game as cheat-free as possible. I suspect Blizzard do too. I choose to believe that Warden exists entirely to achieve this (because that's what common sense tells me) and I'm more than happy to have them sending encrypted information from my machine to their servers.
If I wasn't, or if I found the game so dull that I felt the need to entirely automate something, then I simply wouldn't keep playing :)
Kudos to everyone who's put so much effort into expressing their opinions here - especially Vyndree, who's views are so closely aligned with my own, but was clearly willing to put more time into expressing them than I - but let's not make this a divisive issue for this particular community.
This is exactly what I was trying to explain, so let me simplify it a bit, just to make my point clearer:Quote:
Originally Posted by Otlecs
You buy something which you pay a fixed ammount of money for.
Buy buying the product, you automaticly get a certain set of rights. If the product is not up to the standards you belived it to be in/it's incomplete/you cannot use it due to conditions presented to you at a later given time, you have the right to return it
You pay a certain ammount of money a month to use the product.
Now, the question I'm raising is, if these conditions change after you've paid for the use of the product for x ammount of months, then what sort of compasation are you entitled to? Money back for the product? For all of the subscribtion-time?
So IF Blizzard were to change the EULA into some sort of horror script, what would you be entitled to?
And seeing as it's not always changed and you still have to accept it, if you then accepting beliveing no changes were made (to the full extent of your knowledge), then are you entitleded to any form of compasation?
And quite frankly, the gold-farming case and a case such as I'm describing above are different in quite a few ways and would most likely not be treated the same way.