Clickboxer - new key broadcasting software

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10-18-2008, 02:57 PM
Suvega

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Lax',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135940#post1359 40

3. They can ban you for whatever they want, but they typically restrict banning to violations of the Terms of Service. They don't want to randomly ban people for things they didn't warn against, because that would be bad business and their banned customer would have a legitimate complaint against their service.

You can keep your opinion and go on thinking it's bannable, but stop spreading FUD.

See above on the Customer Service Post. Do that, until then I find it "Asking for it", when you create software on a platform which was known to be the base of several botting programs.

Lax, I'm sure your a talented developer, I would just highly advise staying far away from something this controversial when making software for a practice (multiboxing), which already gets accused of botting by the uninformed. Just build something standalone imo.
10-18-2008, 03:14 PM
zanthor

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Suvega',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135942#post1 35942

Sorry, not trying to vilanify Lax, I just don't want people hawking very shady things on this forum.

We get enough "ZOMG BOTS" as it is, before we start using software which was the, ehem, "platform" for which several bots built themselves on...

Then why aren't you in every thread about AutoHotKey screaming the same way? This certainly seems to be a very hot spot for you, but it really makes you seem unreasonable.
10-18-2008, 03:15 PM
Vyndree

Because my server is failboating right now, I figured I'd add some additional logic to this post.

1) Blizzard can ban you for sneezing the wrong way. It's true. I'd like to think that they're a benevolent diety, though. So, since they define the "spirit of the game" they can ban anything they want.
2) Blizzard has made it clear that bots are not inline with the spirit of the game. I think we all agree on that.
3) Innerspace is associated with a botting program that is currently in a legal mess with Blizzard. Innerspace is also associated with other scripts that only run and were written FOR the Innerspace platform and whose sole purpose is to bot.
POINT A: Innerspace has the capability of being a platform for bots.
4) You do not need to be involved in a legal mess in order to get banned from WoW. Glider users were banned LONG before the lawsuit. Other bots were never involved in legal software and were also banned.
POINT B: A program does not have to have a legal struggle with Blizzard in order to be bannable from WoW
5) From Lax's description, Innerspace either reads or resides within WoW's memory.
6) From the precedent currently being made by the legal squabble between MDY (Glider) and Blizzard, programs that futz with WoW as it resides in memory are making illegal copies/alterations of WoW that are not covered in the licence/terms. This is gray area as the legal battle is not complete.
POINT C: Fussing with WoW as it resides in memory is gray area
7) Innerspace, as a name, is highly associated with botting programs.
8) Multiboxers, as a community, are often misassociated with botters. Multiboxers, in general, would prefer that this no longer happens.

... you see where I'm going here?
10-18-2008, 03:16 PM
Suvega

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'zanthor',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135948#post 135948

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Suvega',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135942#post1 35942

Sorry, not trying to vilanify Lax, I just don't want people hawking very shady things on this forum.

We get enough "ZOMG BOTS" as it is, before we start using software which was the, ehem, "platform" for which several bots built themselves on...

Then why aren't you in every thread about AutoHotKey screaming the same way? This certainly seems to be a very hot spot for you, but it really makes you seem unreasonable.

Because it doesn't live in the process space, and doesn't allow the read or change of memory, nor has it been associated with botting software for the past few years....
10-18-2008, 03:25 PM
Lax

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Suvega',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135944#post1 35944

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Lax',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135940#post1359 40

3. They can ban you for whatever they want, but they typically restrict banning to violations of the Terms of Service. They don't want to randomly ban people for things they didn't warn against, because that would be bad business and their banned customer would have a legitimate complaint against their service.

You can keep your opinion and go on thinking it's bannable, but stop spreading FUD.

See above on the Customer Service Post. Do that, until then I find it "Asking for it", when you create software on a platform which was known to be the base of several botting programs.

Lax, I'm sure your a talented developer, I would just highly advise staying far away from something this controversial when making software for a practice (multiboxing), which already gets accused of botting by the uninformed. Just build something standalone imo.

If you hadn't skipped most of this thread, you would have read that I am creating a separate standalone application for people like you, in addition to providing the more advanced and open capabilities of Inner Space. I also responded on a previous thread with regards to asking customer service. It's not up to them what is bannable or not, and most of them have no more idea about the function of a particular piece of software than you do. The canned response is using ANY third party software may risk your account, and Blizzard does not endorse any third party products for use with World of Warcraft.

People wrote bots using Inner Space, sure, but that does not mean that Inner Space is botting software. People also write bots using Windows. Inner Space is just a platform.

I am also not, as I explained in a previous thread and mentioned in this one in passing, trying to convince you that it is safe to use. You would never take the word of the program's author for whether it is safe or not, and I am well aware of that. Whether Inner Space is safe or not will become more apparent as time passes and more and more people reinforce it. You don't need to take my word for it. Safe is a relative term, all it means is that people have been using it, and not been getting banned for it. The same would be true for Octopus and KeyClone. That could change tomorrow, for any software.

What I am trying to do is stop the spread of misinformation about my software that has come up on these forums from time to time, and is exacerbated by posts like yours randomly claiming that Inner Space is illegal, which it is certainly not. Whether it is bannable is up to Blizzard and Blizzard alone, and they have not been banning for Inner Space. They could if they wanted to, they have the capabilities, they are well aware of Inner Space and what it does, but they are FAR more concerned about ISXWarden and ISXWoW than Inner Space, and as I mentioned in this thread at least once, you will get banned within 20 minutes for using ISXWoW from what I am told by people who tried. People have been using Inner Space without those, for months.

Also, people build bots with autohotkey. Lots of them. Google it.
10-18-2008, 03:35 PM
zanthor

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Vyndree',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135949#post 135949

POINT A: Innerspace has the capability of being a platform for bots.

As does C#, C++, AutoIT, AutoHotKey, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Vyndree',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135949#post 135949

POINT B: A program does not have to have a legal struggle with Blizzard in order to be bannable from WoW

This applies to ANY 3rd party software including KeyClone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Suvega',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135950#post1 35950

Because it doesn't live in the process space, and doesn't allow the read or change of memory, nor has it been associated with botting software for the past few years....

Doesn't live in the process space I'll give you, but for memory space it was requested in this thread (http://www.autohotkey.com/forum/topic2960.html) in 2004, and the guy says he had it working in there, I haven't checked for current support... and as far as associated with botting, the FIRST thing I thought when I saw AutoHotKey was "gee, isn't that used for fishing bots too?"
10-18-2008, 03:35 PM
Suvega

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Lax',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135951#post1359 51

If you hadn't skipped most of this thread, you would have read that I am creating a separate standalone application for people like you, in addition to providing the more advanced and open capabilities of Inner Space. I also responded on a previous thread with regards to asking customer service. It's not up to them what is bannable or not, and most of them have no more idea about the function of a particular piece of software than you do. The canned response is using ANY third party software may risk your account, and Blizzard does not endorse any third party products for use with World of Warcraft.

What I am trying to do is stop the spread of misinformation about my software that has come up on these forums from time to time, and is exacerbated by posts like yours randomly claiming that Inner Space is illegal, which it is certainly not.

Whether it is bannable is up to Blizzard and Blizzard alone, and they have not been banning for Inner Space. *snip* People have been using Inner Space without those, for months.

I didn't skip it, I was referencing it, and complimenting you while doing it (or did you skip that ;) ) I would love you to create a standalone click version of your software. Using innerspace is just asking for retaliation.

Using a platform that was the backbone for botting software, seems kinda risky.

Keyclone has successfully been answered by BLUE posters who did not respond with a canned response that you say.

Do that, until then you can "defend" your "legal" software, but until you have Blizzard acknowledging that innerspace is legal, keep it off our forums.

Btw, for people getting banned for innerspace (Who claim they wern't using botting software): Check this thread: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...sid=1&pageNo=1
10-18-2008, 03:39 PM
Vyndree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lax',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135951#post13595 1]Whether it is bannable is up to Blizzard and Blizzard alone, and they have not been banning for Inner Space. [/quote]

This is the bit that I'm not so sure about. I could've sworn I saw posts of people who claimed they were banned for IS without the use of botting scripts when playing WoW.

Of course, since I have no proof to back this up (my memory is decent, but not perfect -- most of these people on the forums know my reference-linking skillz ;) ) -- I say take that as you will. Personally, I wouldn't trust the developer of a bannable software to admit that it was bannable either -- but I have no proof of it so I will let people make their own investigations and decisions with fair warning.

[quote='Lax',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135951#po st135951]Blizzard does not endorse any third party products for use with World of Warcraft. [/quote]

Untrue.

[url]http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8765637958&pageNo=1&sid=1#8[/url]
[quote='GM Malkorix

Yup, keyclone is fine.
10-18-2008, 03:40 PM
Vyndree

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'zanthor',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135952#post 135952

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Vyndree',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135949#post 135949

POINT A: Innerspace has the capability of being a platform for bots.

As does C#, C++, AutoIT, AutoHotKey, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Vyndree',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135949#post 135949

POINT B: A program does not have to have a legal struggle with Blizzard in order to be bannable from WoW

This applies to ANY 3rd party software including KeyClone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Suvega',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135950#post1 35950

Because it doesn't live in the process space, and doesn't allow the read or change of memory, nor has it been associated with botting software for the past few years....

Doesn't live in the process space I'll give you, but for memory space it was requested in this thread (http://www.autohotkey.com/forum/topic2960.html) in 2004, and the guy says he had it working in there, I haven't checked for current support... and as far as associated with botting, the FIRST thing I thought when I saw AutoHotKey was "gee, isn't that used for fishing bots too?"

As I said, those are just points. No more, no less. The reader can make their own conclusions based off those points (as they are only meant to be true/false). My thoughts on AHK are very clear above.

I'm just outlining the major points of the argument that lead to a conclusion of "gray area". If something is "gray area", I don't use it.
10-18-2008, 03:41 PM
Ellay

Just took a look at this thread, I need to lock it until I get more details. Check your PM's Lax :)
10-18-2008, 04:39 PM
Ellay

Alright I spoke with Lax, unlocking the thread. Please be civil hereafter, he's open to answer any questions/issues regarding the software.
Less meany sauce! :love:
10-18-2008, 05:47 PM
Suribusi

What an epic thread, I can't believe that I didn't see it sooner!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suvega',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135953#post13 5953][quote='Lax',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135951#po st135951]If you hadn't skipped most of this thread, you would have read that I am creating a separate standalone application for people like you, in addition to providing the more advanced and open capabilities of Inner Space. I also responded on a previous thread with regards to asking customer service. It's not up to them what is bannable or not, and most of them have no more idea about the function of a particular piece of software than you do. The canned response is using ANY third party software may risk your account, and Blizzard does not endorse any third party products for use with World of Warcraft.

What I [b]am[/b] trying to do is stop the spread of misinformation about my software that has come up on these forums from time to time, and is exacerbated by posts like yours randomly claiming that Inner Space is [i]illegal[/i], which it is certainly [i]not[/i].

Whether it is [i]bannable [/i]is up to Blizzard and Blizzard alone, and they have not been banning for Inner Space. *snip* People have been using Inner Space without those, for months.
[/quote]I didn't skip it, I was referencing it, and complimenting you while doing it (or did you skip that ;) ) I would love you to create a standalone click version of your software. Using innerspace is just asking for retaliation.

Using a platform that was the backbone for botting software, seems kinda risky.

Keyclone has successfully been answered by BLUE posters who did not respond with a canned response that you say.

Do that, until then you can "defend" your "legal" software, but until you have Blizzard acknowledging that innerspace is legal, keep it off our forums.

Btw, for people getting banned for innerspace (Who claim they wern't using botting software): Check this thread: [url]http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=442898670&sid=1&pageNo=1[/url][/quote]

I don't want to jump on anyones intelligence here, so don't take this that way. But the fact that you believe some random poster on the wow forums...is...interesting. In the CS forums, there is always more than meets the eye to what people "claim" they were doing, or "not" doing. I think you know this already, and might just be choosing things that support your thoughts and ignoring others. Maybe I'm wrong. :)

[quote='Vyndree',index.php?page=Thread&postID=13595 4#post135954][quote='Lax',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135951#po st135951]Whether it is bannable is up to Blizzard and Blizzard alone, and they have not been banning for Inner Space. [/quote]

This is the bit that I'm not so sure about. I could've sworn I saw posts of people who claimed they were banned for IS without the use of botting scripts when playing WoW.

Of course, since I have no proof to back this up (my memory is decent, but not perfect -- most of these people on the forums know my reference-linking skillz ;) ) -- I say take that as you will. Personally, I wouldn't trust the developer of a bannable software to admit that it was bannable either -- but I have no proof of it so I will let people make their own investigations and decisions with fair warning.

[quote='Lax',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135951#po st135951]Blizzard does not endorse any third party products for use with World of Warcraft. [/quote]

Untrue.

[url]http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8765637958&pageNo=1&sid=1#8[/url]
[quote='GM Malkorix

Yup, keyclone is fine.

[/quote]

Interesting link. However the last line sticks out more in my eyes, than the top, where he/she summarizes by saying

Quote:

Originally Posted by GM Malkorix

"Essentially, if you could legally create the command as a functional macro within the default user interface, then it should be okay."

Keyclone, Innerspace, AHK, Octopus, etc allow you to stay within this area. I thought I had more to add, but it is late and I can't think. Not really making or proving any type of point, just a matter of interrpretation I guess. :)

It "should" be okay. I have been using IS for a long time with no problems, as I have stated in another thread.

Side note: I don't know really what all the flaming in these threads is all about. All I can tell from my perspective is that some people here just don't understand all the facts. They overwrite it with their own fiction.

-S
10-18-2008, 06:08 PM
eqjoe

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Suvega',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135924#post1 35924

INNERSPACE IS NOT LEGAL. YOUR PLATFORM IS NOT LEGAL. WOWGLIDER USED THIS PLATFORM AS WELL.

WoW... just wow. You are wrong. What information do you have that I don't?

I can tell you what information I have that you don't..... I have THE FACTS. You should read every post in this thread and learn something before making such insane statements.

-j
10-18-2008, 06:26 PM
Wilbur

I'm lost for words with this thread. Several esteemed members of this community have pretty much reduced themselves to salvating morons. You guys really need to do some proper research before you even *THINK* about posting in this thread again, after all, that is what we are all about.
10-18-2008, 06:41 PM
oMek

Well I�m going to say this over my time playing wow (3years) I�ve tried just about everything, Glider, innerspace (with ISXwow / warden), keyclone, and innerspace (alone).

Glider and ISXwow / warden are umm "bad" they will get you banned at some point .. you play with fire you get burnt.

For the past few months I have ran a combo of inner space and keyclone (solo) .. (depends on what I was doing at the time) and I�ve got no bans or warnings.

You say that using a platform that was also used for botting brings bad press to the world of multiboxing .... Are you kidding me? I�m sorry but if anything gets multiboxing ToSed .. It�s the people who run 36 accounts at once (front page) and do so in public places like Shatt and then post screens here and other forums. Those are the people who draw attention and negative press.

I don�t care what the forum blue posts say, multiboxing is a "gray" area and is not endorsed, ATM just because they say its "ok" does not mean they approve of it .. that just means they dont feel it�s a major issue at the present time. multiboxing will change soon enough in the eyes of blizzard I�m sure of it.

What really makes me laugh... Most of the people in here saying inner space / lax are the devil... prob have tried inner space before or will try it in the near future if his program provides multiboxer to something to your advantage.
10-18-2008, 07:48 PM
RobinGBrown

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Lax',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135951#post1359 51

Inner Space is just a platform.

It doesn't matter how much you keep repeating this or bleating on about the fine distinction between a platform and the bot that uses the platform because it's not relevant to the issue.

You are not trustworthy.

I would not trust you to write a program that would be safe to use with WoW.

Edit: Thought of a couple of pertinent questions for Lax

1. Does the InnerSpace 'platform' attempt to conceal itself from WoW in any way?

2. Is the Innerspace 'platform' capable of reading or scanning memory/data of WoW in any way?

3. Do people have to pay for Innerspace or Clickboxer?

The first two questions should answer the legality issue of InnerSpace quite firmly - because if IS attempts to conceal itself or read memory then it is definitely not safe to use.

The last question is a bit more entertaining. I'm assuming that the bot that runs on the InnerSpace 'platform' has been stopped and thus Lax is rather out of pocket recently becasue AFAIK IS requires a subscription to use. So I imagine that Lax has cast his greedy eye over multiboxers and said to himself something like 'ooh, there's a grey area where I can wrangle some subscriptions with a little addon, and those multiboxers have plenty of money or they wouldn't be able to afford all those accounts'.

Obviously I may be doing Lax a disservice here and perhaps he is planning on releasing his tool for free as part of a commitment to the community, but I doubt it, he just doesn't seem that lavish in his gifts.
10-18-2008, 08:22 PM
Lax

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'RobinGBrown',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136007# post136007

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Lax',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135951#post1359 51

Inner Space is just a platform.

It doesn't matter how much you keep repeating this or bleating on about the fine distinction between a platform and the bot that uses the platform because it's not relevant to the issue.

You are not trustworthy.

I would not trust you to write a program that would be safe to use with WoW.

In the words of The Dude, "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

Thank you for your opinion. We have read it 3 times now. You can stop repeating it any time. If you don't want to use it, then don't use it. People will make their own decisions, I am helping them make an informed one.
10-18-2008, 08:30 PM
RobinGBrown

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Lax',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136013#post1360 13

In the words of The Dude, "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

Thank you for your opinion. We have read it 3 times now. You can stop repeating it any time.

Ditto, we've all seen your opinion too, and a lot more than 3 times too, it would be nice if you stopped repeating the same thing as well.

I edited my post while you were writing yours - try answering the questions above.
10-18-2008, 09:07 PM
Lax

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'RobinGBrown',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136007# post136007

Edit: Thought of a couple of pertinent questions for Lax

1. Does the InnerSpace 'platform' attempt to conceal itself from WoW in any way?

2. Is the Innerspace 'platform' capable of reading or scanning memory/data of WoW in any way?

3. Do people have to pay for Innerspace or Clickboxer?

The first two questions should answer the legality issue of InnerSpace quite firmly - because if IS attempts to conceal itself or read memory then it is definitely not safe to use.

The last question is a bit more entertaining. I'm assuming that the bot that runs on the InnerSpace 'platform' has been stopped and thus Lax is rather out of pocket recently becasue AFAIK IS requires a subscription to use. So I imagine that Lax has cast his greedy eye over multiboxers and said to himself something like 'ooh, there's a grey area where I can wrangle some subscriptions with a little addon, and those multiboxers have plenty of money or they wouldn't be able to afford all those accounts'.

Obviously I may be doing Lax a disservice here and perhaps he is planning on releasing his tool for free as part of a commitment to the community, but I doubt it, he just doesn't seem that lavish in his gifts.

1. In order to work properly with many games, Inner Space needs to be as indistinguishable as possible from Windows itself as possible. Inner Space as a platform does not attempt to conceal itself from Warden, which has the capability to detect Inner Space.

2. Inner Space does not change the capability of reading or scanning memory. That functionality is built into your processor and additionally in Windows. Being in-process means that you do not need any functionality beyond what World of Warcraft itself is doing, using your CPU. There is no additional functionality in Inner Space for this.

3. Inner Space is subscription-based. ClickBoxer is an XML file, you can view the entire source file (it is short), and in fact it would be essentially useless without that. ClickBoxer is free, you can grab it right now, but it would only be useful to you via Inner Space.

4. As I mentioned previously, my company started in 2004 as a company providing services to multi-boxers, including Sam, the original poster of the thread. I don't know where you get off calling me greedy. Anyone who runs a business wants to make money. KeyClone requires you to pay for it, does it not? I dont understand your hostility.

Edit: Oh, and if you wanted something for nothing, you can feel free to apply for a free 7 day trial of Inner Space, which would then allow you to try ClickBoxer, for free.
10-18-2008, 09:12 PM
Suribusi

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'RobinGBrown',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136015# post136015

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Lax',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136013#post1360 13

In the words of The Dude, "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

Thank you for your opinion. We have read it 3 times now. You can stop repeating it any time.

Ditto, we've all seen your opinion too, and a lot more than 3 times too, it would be nice if you stopped repeating the same thing as well.

I edited my post while you were writing yours - try answering the questions above.

Apparently not everyone, because all of your questions were answered already in this section of the forums. Maybe of 4th time will help. 8|

-S
10-19-2008, 01:49 AM
Aethon

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Vyndree',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135896#post 135896

That's why (at least in my post) I made it clear that it's my PERSONAL OPINION. I, PERSONALLY, would never use any product that would allow me to unwittingly stumble my way into the area of botting.

As a hardware boxer, I've pretty much taken it to the extreme. ;) There is no way I can program a delay into my setup. There is no way that I could automatically make actions with my setup.

If there's a way to accidentally trip over myself and end up with a bannable action using AHK, InnerSpace, whatever... I, personally, want no part in it. Many people use AHK, G15s, and the like without issue -- I just don't prefer not to.

Right, and we all see how well the personal opinions of normally highly respected people in the community can cause things to shift one way or another. i.e. random famous person says they're voting for canidate X in the election. And you seriously don't think that that influnces other people? If you didn't intend for others to be swayed by your opinions, why did you bother to post them?

As for Lax's software, I DO support it. I also support Keyclone. I encourage people to try different products and see what they like best. If anyone here is in doubt as to the validity of a particular product, ask on the Blizzard forums, I'm sure sooner or later a Blue will respond. If that Blue's answer isn't good enough for you, email their support, tell them you think product X is ok to use and want them to look if it violates anything. As stated many times on the forums, 1 press, 1 action = ok.

And a GM on the forums is not what I would call Blizzard endorsing a product. True, they may work for Blizzard, but it's not the same as a press release stating 'company Q fully backs and supports product Y' they simply say it's 'OK to use at the moment.'
10-19-2008, 05:24 AM
Sam DeathWalker

WinEQ2 is a Lax Product (which you PAY for) and is 100percent LEGAL in EQ.

From what I see in this thread IS, by itself, appears to be also legal.

1. It is not hidden from Warden

2. No one who has used it has been banned.

Again I just repeat that it sounds to me the argument made against it would be the exact same argument that because you CAN use the G15 programing software as a platform to violate the TOS then you should not buy any product from Logitech, an argument which I find sophistical to say the least.
10-19-2008, 05:40 AM
Sam DeathWalker

Also another point about all this banning business. Its not up to us to take a wild guess at what blizzard considers legal or not. In any state of the United States you can't provide a product to the general population and refuse to provide that product to spicific individuals. Of course those who violate the TOS can be banned, but in court the burden of proof would be on Blizzard to establish that they in fact banned the person for ligit reason and not because of ILLEGAL discrimination.

Blizzard has legal counsel and obviously the best way for Blizzard to protect themselves from litigation would be to simply announce what programs are bannable and what are not.

Instead of all this wild guess talk in this thread just simply post on WoW forum and ask if IS is legal or not. They have stated that Keyclone is legal, I see no reason they would not also take a position on IS.

Blizzard obviously dosnt prevent others from makeing money from WoW as many addon sites charge money as do informational sites like allka. This is all to their advantage to have others working to make things for their game.
10-19-2008, 05:53 AM
Suvega

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136153#p ost136153

Also another point about all this banning business. Its not up to us to take a wild guess at what blizzard considers legal or not. In any state of the United States you can't provide a product to the general population and refuse to provide that product to spicific individuals. Of course those who violate the TOS can be banned, but in court the burden of proof would be on Blizzard to establish that they in fact banned the person for ligit reason and not because of ILLEGAL discrimination. .

This is completly untrue.

Learn to read your legal agreements:

Section 7:

Blizzard�s Absolute Right to Suspend, Terminate and/or Delete the Account.

BLIZZARD MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, OR DELETE THE ACCOUNT AT ANY TIME WITH ANY REASON OR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE. For purposes of explanation and not limitation, most account suspensions, terminations and/or deletions are the result of violations of this Terms of Use or the EULA
10-19-2008, 05:57 AM
Suvega

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136153#p ost136153

Instead of all this wild guess talk in this thread just simply post on WoW forum and ask if IS is legal or not. They have stated that Keyclone is legal, I see no reason they would not also take a position on IS.

Still waiting on this, however IMO this will never happen.
10-19-2008, 06:02 AM
Sam DeathWalker

Thats called a "contract of adhesion" in legal terms.

Its not infoceable in a court of law.

http://dictionary.law.com/definition2.asp?selected=2325

Notice that Blizzard is sueing Glider for COPYRIGHT violations not violations of the TOS or EULA lol ....
10-19-2008, 06:03 AM
Suvega

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136165#p ost136165

Thats called a "contract of adhesion" in legal terms.

Its not infoceable in a court of law.

http://dictionary.law.com/definition2.asp?selected=2325

LOL, says YOU? This contract has been enforced with this clause for how long?
Hahah. Great legal advice Sam, You just told us that the ToS are void... LOL...
10-19-2008, 06:05 AM
Sam DeathWalker

This "contract" has NEVER been enforced ONE TIME in a Court of Law. Cite me a copy to the decision if it has. The EULA will not be enforced by a Court in my opinion, the fact is no one is going to pay $30,000 to an attorney to fight for a $77 ban.

Correct me if I am wrong but the Glider case is NOT about TOS becuase Blizzard knows its complete garbage. Although their case from a copyright standpoint is a lot stronger.

You don't think taht because a resturant posts a sign "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" that the Court will enforce that "contract" if they refuse to serve blacks?
10-19-2008, 06:10 AM
eqjoe

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Suvega',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136163#post1 36163

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136153#p ost136153

Instead of all this wild guess talk in this thread just simply post on WoW forum and ask if IS is legal or not. They have stated that Keyclone is legal, I see no reason they would not also take a position on IS.

Still waiting on this, however IMO this will never happen.

I started a thread on the US WoW boards and asked this very question several months ago in the UI and Macros forum. I never got a blue answer. I did get a green answer who suggested that Blizzard will never declare any software safe or unsafe and that they ban based on in game conduct.

Ok, we know that is bullshit. Blizzard banned several of us a few years ago for vanilla InnerSpace, just to reverse the bans and give us free time. Some of us have never trusted Blizzard since.

-j
10-19-2008, 06:16 AM
Suvega

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136168#p ost136168

This "contract" has NEVER been enforced ONE TIME in a Court of Law. Cite me a copy to the decision if it has. The EULA will not be enforced by a Court in my opinion, the fact is no one is going to pay $30,000 to an attorney to fight for a $77 ban.

Correct me if I am wrong but the Glider case is NOT about TOS becuase Blizzard knows its complete garbage. Although their case from a copyright standpoint is a lot stronger.

You don't think taht because a resturant posts a sign "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" that the Court will enforce that "contract" if they refuse to serve blacks?

LOL I love the analogy, because Blizzard is discriminating against whom? People who use a certain peice of software that they find to be shady?
Stop talking out of your ass Sam, you just make yourself look worse then you already do (which is a pretty hard feat imo)
10-19-2008, 06:26 AM
Suvega

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'eqjoe',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136171#post13 6171

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Suvega',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136163#post1 36163

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136153#p ost136153

Instead of all this wild guess talk in this thread just simply post on WoW forum and ask if IS is legal or not. They have stated that Keyclone is legal, I see no reason they would not also take a position on IS.

Still waiting on this, however IMO this will never happen.

I started a thread on the US WoW boards and asked this very question several months ago in the UI and Macros forum. I never got a blue answer. I did get a green answer who suggested that Blizzard will never declare any software safe or unsafe and that they ban based on in game conduct.

Ok, we know that is bullshit. Blizzard banned several of us a few years ago for vanilla InnerSpace, just to reverse the bans and give us free time. Some of us have never trusted Blizzard since.

-j

This is what I'm afraid of :(. We know that innerspace is on a "watch" list if you will, and that they will be checking for anything shady going on.

My Main concerns:
Innerspace already being very closely tied to botting software in the past (yes, platform, just saying closely associated).
People drawing anymore analogies with Botting and Boxing.
Sweeping bans on kids who have innerspace (which might get reversed later), and then them swarming our boards like "BANNED FOR MULTIBOXIGN!!!"

Lax-
To clarify, I have no problems whatsoever with you creating a competiting product in the multicasting niche. In fact I would LOVE more competition, as right now (at least on this board), keyclone is the monopoly. If you could provide a good alternative to keyclone, by all means I would ENCOURAGE you to do so.

My only concern is using Innerspace as the platform. I understand that it is just a "platform", however the platform is very extensibile, and provides alot of hooks into an application which many of us do not want to be anywhere near.

I understand that you're workign on a standalone, which I think would be GREAT for the community, and by all means charge for it as well (Open markets ftw).
I would -strongly- prefer that you leave innerspace out of this community, as unfortunetly what YOU do, will affect ALL of us. Even if the majority of people decide they would rather the standalone application, this doesn't negate the fact that people ARE using innerspace. Nothing good can come from associating boxing with innerspace, and I don't want to have the repercussions of this affecting me or others in this community who had nothing to do with this.
10-19-2008, 06:35 AM
Rigz

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Suvega',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136163#post1 36163

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136153#p ost136153

Instead of all this wild guess talk in this thread just simply post on WoW forum and ask if IS is legal or not. They have stated that Keyclone is legal, I see no reason they would not also take a position on IS.

Still waiting on this, however IMO this will never happen.

You should consider that lax may not care to waste his time doing this, and most people who are rational won't blame him. For one thing IS is a more complex issue of software (one of keyclone's selling points is that it does one thing and is careful to do nothing at all dangerous), and I doubt anyone in CS would want to touch IS with even a semi official response.

For another he may not see any value in getting a CS endorsement as unlikely as it may be, because most people understand that a CS response does not dictate nor assure blizzard policy. I know every time I fire up Keyclone I take some risk of being banned, I just consider it small enough (so tiny really) to not deter me from doing so.

Should he get an endorsement to satisfy you, even if such an endorsement would be meaningless to most others? Thats his call I guess, just PLEASE stop demanding it over and over like it is some masterstroke to your otherwise baseless arguments (if any one who is rational is still reading them).

Also several of you are coming off sad and for once it's not Sam. That should probably tell you something about this thread...
10-19-2008, 06:41 AM
Suvega

Quote:

For another he may not see any value in getting a CS endorsement as unlikely as it may be, because most people understand that a CS response does not dictate nor assure blizzard policy. I know every time I fire up Keyclone I take some risk of being banned, I just consider it small enough (so tiny really) to not deter me from doing so.

Should he get an endorsement to satisfy you, even if such an endorsement would be meaningless to most others? Thats his call I guess, just PLEASE stop demanding it over and over like it is some masterstroke to your otherwise baseless arguments (if any one who is rational is still reading them).

Also several of you are coming off sad and for once it's not Sam. That should probably tell you something about this thread...

a) I don't care what I come off as to you, nor anyone who thinks like you. I'm here to ensure that my ability and people like me continue to have the ability to Multibox and enjoy the hobbies that I Do.
b) An endorsement by a Blizzard GM is a good way to both increase sales, and to mitigate fears by the unknowledgable. If he was SMART he would, because if YOU haven't noticed by now, a VAST MAJORITY of this site tries to keep as legal as possible.
c) Claiming that arguments are coming off as "sad and for once its not sam", and that they are "irrational" but have no counterpoints to the arguements is quite ironic imo ;)
10-19-2008, 06:41 AM
Vyndree

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Aethon',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136085#post1 36085

And you seriously don't think that that influnces other people?

I'm not saying my personal opinion doesn't influence others -- I would've kept my mouth shut if my opinion didn't have any value. I was merely clarifying (because I am a mod) between MY personal opinion, and that of the site (because others have oft accused me of speaking for the site when I was disussing MY opinion on a FORUM.)

I speak my opinion because that's what every person on this forum has the right to do -- they say what they feel about a product/strat/composition/encounter and others DISCUSS whether they feel the same, whether they don't, or whether their perception has changed because they read someone else's perspective. If people agree with my perspective -- good for them -- that doesn't make them mindless sheep. Knowledge is power -- nothing I have said in any of my posts is false. I am not misleading any one. I am not posting false information, or information that is purposely lacking -- I have made my stance clear on Innerspace -- and in this very thread I have compared it to my same personal impressions of AHK, G15s, etc. I don't like any of them.

"Why didn't you put up such a big fuss about G15's and AHK?"

I did. G15s and AHK were out before I even started multiboxing -- but even so -- whenever the topics came up, I was on those threads with my warnings of "be careful when using it -- I wouldn't use it, but they CAN do things that can get you banned".

I'm doing the same in this thread -- and if I'm not mistaken that's my right to.

Are we not a DISCUSSION forum?
Are we not allowed to share our OPINIONS on products?
Is my opinion not based on FACTS (as I laid out in a previous post of mine VERY clearly)?

Please don't patronize me -- I have never once made my stance the official stance of dual-boxing.com. I have been VERY, VERY, VERY, EXCEEDINGLY clear with my NUMEROUS uses of "personally", "imo", "seriously guys this is my opinion", "FFS OPINION". If people value my PERSONAL opinion over others -- why do you think that is? Perhaps because I have always ALWAYS been a member of the community who is GREATLY INVESTED in keeping people on the right track in terms of the ToU/EULA, and have ALWAYS had people's account interests in mind?
10-19-2008, 06:45 AM
Vyndree

[quote='Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136165#p ost136165]Thats called a "contract of adhesion" in legal terms.

Its not infoceable in a court of law. [/quote]

Regardless, OUR FORUM RULES on this forum clearly state:
[quote]Game Specific Forum Rules
[list][*][color=#ff0000]If it is against the ToS of the game you are discussing it is against dual-boxing.com�s community guidelines to discuss ways of breaking said ToS. We are COMMITTED to keeping our hobby 100% compliant with the ToS of any game we play.[/color][*]Discussions regarding software that automates gameplay or alters parts of the gaming environment are strictly prohibited. We neither use nor condone the use of such software. Do not name, provide links or provide a �how-to� for such software.[*]If a game has a tool for detecting prohibited programs, such as �Warden�, discussions of bypassing or disabling those tools are prohibited. Do not name, provide links or provide a �how-to� for such procedures.[/list][/quote]
[url='http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&postID=14540#post14540']Community Guidelines - Read Before Posting[/url]

If it's not compliant with the ToU/EULA, we don't discuss it here. End of story.
10-19-2008, 06:52 AM
jrichard

So let's see....

We have the author of the base platform many bots run on, who also maintains and provides the extension to that platform meant to hide it from warden. (and no, you didn't quit providing that in 2007. looks like it was posted that with the bans that came with 2.4.3 you told users to stop using it until the "problems" could be fixed.)

We have eqjoe, longtime botter and the author of botting scripts. A simple search shows him giving advice to others on writing their scripts as well as providing his own. This line from this thread is really funny: "Blizzard banned several of us a few years ago for vanilla InnerSpace, just to reverse the bans and give us free time. Some of us have never trusted Blizzard since." as it implies that he doesn't bot.

Those searches also turned up Wilbur, who's also speaking up in defense of innerspace.

Botters and the guy providing their base sofware and the anti-detection extension. Go ahead and take their word for it on this stuff if you want. I seem to see a complete lack of honesty or openess from any of them on who they are and what they do. From lax you see a ton of double talk, which is quite pretty to read, and very little actual answering. Eqjoe seems to be running interference. Then we have the forum moderator who drops into these threads every now and again to insult anyone who speaks up against lax. That's a pretty little setup.
10-19-2008, 07:52 AM
Souca

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Lax',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136026#post1360 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'RobinGBrown',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136007# post136007

2. Is the Innerspace 'platform' capable of reading or scanning memory/data of WoW in any way?

2. Inner Space does not change the capability of reading or scanning memory. That functionality is built into your processor and additionally in Windows. Being in-process means that you do not need any functionality beyond what World of Warcraft itself is doing, using your CPU. There is no additional functionality in Inner Space for this.

I'm going to keep on this point, since I have yet to see a straightforward answer to the question. You have continually answered this question in a manner intended to avoid the actual intent of the question by stating that anything could read from memory. I hope this is unintentional on your part, so I will try and phrase this question again.

As a platform, does IS allow access to WoW memory space, or read or write to any WoW memory space? I'm not asking if Windows can do it, or if the CPU can do it, I'm asking if IS does it or exposes calls/hooks/fucntions to allow scripts to do it.

As for all the bashing going on both sides, all I can say is that very few people can claim their hands are clean in here, mine included. There have been some very good points in this thread and those were ones that were backed up with cited facts. These posts have come from both sides and I hope that we can continue those kinda of posts *without* the personal attacks or the "shame on yous".

- Souca -

Edit: Changed with to without.
10-19-2008, 08:00 AM
Vyndree

I just reread this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Lax',index.php?page=Thread&postID=135812#post1358 12

Firstly, I was never heavily involved in Glider. In 2006 I made a deal with MDY to provide him with protection from Warden. That is not Lavish Software, that is me individually, there is a difference and Lavish Software does not produce nor market Warden protection.

So, in essence you're saying that
a) You own and are involved with a software company thus named Lavish Software.
b) You (but not Lavish Software) made a deal with MDY (which produces SOLELY Glider) to provide him with protection from Warden.
Note: "Protection" from warden, or otherwise tampering with warden, is against the ToU/Eula.
c) Lavish Software does not produce nor market Warden protection.

Question:
Are you the sole owner of Lavish Software?

If so, doesn't that mean that "You" and "Lavish Software" are therefore equivalent in terms of everything but responsibility?

i.e. Is the only REAL differentiation between "you" and "lavish software" useful in order to protect the right hand from what the left hand is doing?
10-19-2008, 09:43 AM
Lax

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'jrichard',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136187#pos t136187

So let's see....

We have the author of the base platform many bots run on, who also maintains and provides the extension to that platform meant to hide it from warden. (and no, you didn't quit providing that in 2007. looks like it was posted that with the bans that came with 2.4.3 you told users to stop using it until the "problems" could be fixed.)

We have eqjoe, longtime botter and the author of botting scripts. A simple search shows him giving advice to others on writing their scripts as well as providing his own. This line from this thread is really funny: "Blizzard banned several of us a few years ago for vanilla InnerSpace, just to reverse the bans and give us free time. Some of us have never trusted Blizzard since." as it implies that he doesn't bot.

Those searches also turned up Wilbur, who's also speaking up in defense of innerspace.

Botters and the guy providing their base sofware and the anti-detection extension. Go ahead and take their word for it on this stuff if you want. I seem to see a complete lack of honesty or openess from any of them on who they are and what they do. From lax you see a ton of double talk, which is quite pretty to read, and very little actual answering. Eqjoe seems to be running interference. Then we have the forum moderator who drops into these threads every now and again to insult anyone who speaks up against lax. That's a pretty little setup.

When did I say I stopped providing something in 2007? I said I was deposed in 2007. ISXWarden has not been in distribution since August, and that is unrelated to "the problems" you are describing.

I have no idea what double talk you are referring to. I have been open and honest and answered as many questions as I can, so I don't know what "little actual answering" you're referring to either. Sorry, please be more clear as far as what I'm not answering. For the most part what I see is people like you who simply don't read or understand my posts and then spout off nonsense, such as claiming that I somewhere said that ISXWarden has not been provided since 2007.

Souca:

Quote:

I'm going to keep on this point, since I have yet to see a straightforward answer to the question. You have continually answered this question in a manner intended to avoid the actual intent of the question by stating that anything could read from memory. I hope this is unintentional on your part, so I will try and phrase this question again.

As a platform, does IS allow access to WoW memory space, or read or write to any WoW memory space? I'm not asking if Windows can do it, or if the CPU can do it, I'm asking if IS does it or exposes calls/hooks/fucntions to allow scripts to do it.

As for all the bashing going on both sides, all I can say is that very few people can claim their hands are clean in here, mine included. There have been some very good points in this thread and those were ones that were backed up with cited facts. These posts have come from both sides and I hope that we can continue those kinda of posts *without* the personal attacks or the "shame on yous".

- Souca -

Edit: Changed with to without.

Inner Space cannot PREVENT access to WoW memory space, because it is IN WoW memory space, and reading from memory is a basic function of your computer. I thought I answered it as clearly as I could the first time around. Let me explain that there are a variety of mods that can be loaded via Inner Space. "Extensions" can be written in C++. Extensions can do literally anything, as they are essentially compiled Windows programs. Inner Space provides API to extensions for general memory writes, however this has nothing to do with World of Warcraft, and without specifically using an anti-Warden solution, provides no benefit over writing memory directly. Reading memory requires NO special API, because that is what all programs do -- they manipulate the memory in the process's "memory space" as you say. "Scripts" can be written in LavishScript, and LavishScript, like many programming languages, has type-casting. It is possible to read bits of memory through clever typecasting, very much like what could be done in C++, but again, there is nothing WoW-specific here. ".NET Applications" can be written in any .NET language, commonly C#. The same API provided to extensions or scripts is available to .NET applications, but much like extensions, these are Windows-native programs that will run in the WoW process, and can read or write to the memory space by design. In order to have the WoW-specific functionality that I believe you're trying to ask about, you would need to use a custom extension (e.g. ISXWoW). If this does not thoroughly answer your question I'm not sure what else to tell you on the subject.

Quote:

So, in essence you're saying that
a) You own and are involved with a software company thus named Lavish Software.
b) You (but not Lavish Software) made a deal with MDY (which produces SOLELY Glider) to provide him with protection from Warden.
Note: "Protection" from warden, or otherwise tampering with warden, is against the ToU/Eula.
c) Lavish Software does not produce nor market Warden protection.

Question:
Are you the sole owner of Lavish Software?

If so, doesn't that mean that "You" and "Lavish Software" are therefore equivalent in terms of everything but responsibility?

i.e. Is the only REAL differentiation between "you" and "lavish software" useful in order to protect the right hand from what the left hand is doing?

I am indeed the sole owner of Lavish Software at present time. I don't believe your synopsis is correct, and I do believe MDY has other products (though I am not an expert on MDY). Lavish Software (and indeed Inner Space) was created long before Warden existed, so I'm not sure why you're saying this is "the only REAL differentiation", but it is indeed convenient to keep it separate and not market any Warden-related tools on the Lavish Software company site. There are some pretty good arguments against your statements, but I will ask you if you feel that an act of Lavish Software is an act of me, Joe Thaler, as an individual (note that I have employees who also act for Lavish Software). If not, then why is an act of me, Joe Thaler, automatically an act of Lavish Software? I have also held other jobs while owning Lavish, do my other jobs count as being Lavish? If I release a free, open source program to make toast for you, and I don't market it or provide it on my company site, but I do somewhere else, does that mean the toaster program is a Lavish product?

In the end the distinction is largely legalese, and I don't think it's fit for discussion on these forums. Just take it as read that Lavish Software as a company has never produced nor marketed Warden protection, and you will not find any evidence to the contrary on the web site. You are certainly free to feel however you like about my distribution of ISXWarden but on my end it's handled, and you may or may not come to find that out in the near future.

If the argument is that I've made software people use for botting, so you don't want to trust my software, then don't, I'm not going to change your mind, because indeed I have written software people use for botting. Even before Inner Space, I made MacroQuest 2 in EQ1, rewritten from MacroQuest 1 which was originally made by Plazmic, who I'm told landed a job at Microsoft after impressing someone with it (he died last year of an aneurysm). People used that for botting and warping and whatever else you can think of. Our MQ2 community rules explicitly state that afk bots are not allowed, hacks like warping are not allowed, and so on, but in the minds of the many, MQ2 is synonymous with botting and warping. From my experience with MQ2 I went on to create EQPlayNice, which was and is a HUGE benefit to multi-boxers in EQ1, and WinEQ, neither of which were "cheating" applications by any measure, and EQIM clients such as TEQIM (for Trillian). And as anyone who was around back then will tell you, I had these same kinds of conversations with people at that time, even though I ALSO made EQWatcher, long before I got into MacroQuest, and it had a decent following in its time, including from multi-boxers such as Scott Adams of Adventure fame (not Dilbert). Note that SOE never banned any of my accounts, some of which are active to this day. I believe I present even them with an interesting dilemma.

Edit: Added "Even before Inner Space" in the previous paragraph, because there would have been a reply asking me if I was implying that Inner Space was never used for botting, and I'm obviously not arguing against that, because people have.
10-19-2008, 09:58 AM
Vyndree

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Lax',index.php?page=Thread&postID=136238#post1362 38

There are some pretty good arguments against your statements, but I will ask you if you feel that an act of Lavish Software is an act of me, Joe Thaler, as an individual (note that I have employees who also act for Lavish Software). If not, then why is an act of me, Joe Thaler, automatically an act of Lavish Software? I have also held other jobs while owning Lavish, do my other jobs count as being Lavish?

For the same reason that people will critize Microsoft for a action made by Bill Gates. For the same reason that people will critize Microsoft for an action made by me (as an employee of Microsoft). For this reason, I am required to sign a quite comprehensive contract on what I can, and cannot say (and do) inside and outside of Microsoft.

If Bill Gates were to be involved in some scandalous activity involving the computer industry, would people not also critize Microsoft (particularly because of his vast influence on the company)?

Like it or not you are a representative of your company. And like it or not, you have been responsible for your own soiled reputation, which in turn is soiling your company's (howevermuch you're trying to seperate the two for reasons of legalese). It's not a hard concept why you are receiving such a large amount of mistrust and criticism regardless of your product's merits (or lack thereof). You've earned it.

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