Dragon Soul, nerf 2 inc

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Originally Posted by Pazgaz

@ Apatheis:
Does your sense of achievement is in some way lessened because others take advantage of the debuff?

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Of course it does. Not the debuff specifically, since progression was mostly done by the time this was implemented, but game changes that allow easier access to top tier content effects progression. When you're recruiting and managing a progression guild on your server, your position relevant to other raiding guilds has a big impact on the quality of players you attract. Nerfing content, access easymode 10man "hardmodes" and free gear all dumb down the game to the point where high end content feels like a grind rather than a challenge.

People seem to forget that hardmodes are supposed to be hard. If you're in a guild that isn't up to the harder heroic fights, that's what normal modes and LFR are for.

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Originally Posted by zenga

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Those are matters of game balance. If there's a fight that's too class dependent, I have no issue with minor adjustments and class balance. My issue is with sweeping changes that allow guilds that would otherwise not be able to complete certain content to steamroll through it the day after the patch (exactly what happened to my guild). We were improving, getting further and further in the fight we've been working on for a month or so. We had some of our best attempts the week before the patch. After the patch, we strolled through it and it was really disappointing to have something we put so much effort into dumbed down so much.

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Originally Posted by luxlunae

I agree, we're 4 months into the patch, NOTHING you might do is impressive, let lesser mortals get their jollies.

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I'm one of those "lesser mortals". I just like to feel like if we kill a boss, it's because we've put in the time and effort to beat it. Not because Blizzard has spoon fed us.

This discussion reminds me of a George Carlin's bits, "Child worship".

I agree with Luxlunae. Especially at this point in the patch/expansion - very few people care about what anyone else is doing in this game unless you are bleeding edge, so you are the only one responsible for your sense of accomplishment.

If you don't want to be "spoon fed" then stop opening your mouth everytime the spoon comes by. Turn off the debuff, don't recruit people who want slackass through raids, do hardmodes and ignore "the Joneses".

It's not your sense of achievement that is not fulfilled (although you call it that), it's your epeen :)
Sense of achievement is what you feel when YOU manage something that was hard for YOU. Even if 1000000 other players managed it before you, it gives YOU a sense of achievement when you finally succeed. It has nothing to do with any other people. It's semantics, but they matter in this case. I would be a lot more sympathetic towards what you say if it was really that, and not lessened epeen :)
It's like dunking. I can dunk on a normal height hoop, does the fact that it can be lowered so less athletic people can also dunk take away anything from my dunk? I can lower it myself, but I choose to leave it at regulations height. :)

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Originally Posted by Apatheist

We were improving, getting further and further in the fight we've been working on for a month or so. We had some of our best attempts the week before the patch. After the patch, we strolled through it and it was really disappointing to have something we put so much effort into dumbed down so much.
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I'm one of those "lesser mortals". I just like to feel like if we kill a boss, it's because we've put in the time and effort to beat it. Not because Blizzard has spoon fed us.

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Really, just ...

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Originally Posted by Khatovar

Turn off the debuff

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You are contradicting yourself: either you want to satisfy your own progress road and you don't give a shit about ranks, or you follow the blizzard road and then everyone will know that you killed boss x after a nerf. If the latter you'll have to admit at one point that you weren't good enough to keep up with it. We had a 5% wipe on the last tendon on spine heroic prior to the nerf (that's like nothing, a pally bubble and the dots would 've finished it off), roughly 200 guilds in the world had killed him at that point. We were unable to reproduce such a good attempt that lockout, and in the next one it got nerfed. While we cursed a lot about that wipe, we have to admit in the end that we weren't good enough to kill it prior to the nerf. It would've been a major accomplishment for our guild, but we follow the blizzard road so we failed and killed it later with the nerfs (and extra gear). It's that simple: blizzard designs the encounters and you have x amount of time to kill them, if you fail to do so a nerf kicks in. And the only ones to be blamed for that is yourself.

And if you don't follow the blizzard road you have the option to turn off the nerf, but then you cheat a bit as well as you have more gear to kill it than you should have had (remember paragon killing LK hc in ICC without the buff, but they were in BiS gear at that point, so - while still very hard - it didn't really tell anything).

The fact of the matter is that Blizzard has clearly stated that it is not their intent to create content that less than 5% of the player base can access. Their goal is for people to be able to access that content as much as is "reasonable". Obviously, their definition of "reasonable" may be different from yours.

This is what has made WoW so successful - Blizzard has proven that the recipe works and will continue to do it over and over again.

The nerfs will piss off, what, 10 % of the population at most? Meanwhile, casual or mediocre players will be gobbling up content that the Blizzard designers have spent months creating and implementing.

If I were an artist, I wouldn't spend a year creating an artistic masterpiece and then only let 5 people a year look at it. But I am not trying to imply that 4.3 is "art" or a "masterpiece".

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Originally Posted by Pazgaz

It's not your sense of achievement that is not fulfilled (although you call it that), it's your epeen :)
Sense of achievement is what you feel when YOU manage something that was hard for YOU. Even if 1000000 other players managed it before you, it gives YOU a sense of achievement when you finally succeed. It has nothing to do with any other people. It's semantics, but they matter in this case. I would be a lot more sympathetic towards what you say if it was really that, and not lessened epeen :)
It's like dunking. I can dunk on a normal height hoop, does the fact that it can be lowered so less athletic people can also dunk take away anything from my dunk? I can lower it myself, but I choose to leave it at regulations height. :)

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Finally someone who sees the truth.

If you want a sense of achievement, disable the debuff.
The fact that these nerfs will allow more people to kill heroic bosses doesn't affect you.
I fail to see how making it easier for people to get PvE gear has any affect on those people who are unhappy with the gradual nerfing.
The nerf is OPTIONAL. If you don't want it, don't use it.

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