Thanks Blizzard...

Well, the nice thing about the armor changes (if they work the way we think they will) is that it won't really matter what team you get to 85 first. If you pick the druids fist and they're gimpy, leveling shamans up won't put you at an enormous disadvantage, gear wise.

I still have big concerns that the Boomkin team doesn't have much burst and relies on a mechanic that I both don't use now and probably wouldn't use later. (Eclipse) Yes, it is easier to MB now, but it's not something I would want to do in BGs much.

Solar beam might be a problem for us, but we'll just have to see. I think I'll just know that it's dangerous and have a 4xFulmination ready to go for boomkins... :)

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Originally Posted by Mosg2

@Alemi:

I didn't realize there was a glyph that reduced the cast time of Root by 100%... That's beyond insane.

Um Boylston, maybe uh I might uh be doing Druids now hmm? Grumble maybe grumble grumble.

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Yeah, boomkins are not seeing the "nerfbat" the way people are anticipating. I said this to someone yesterday, when you look at one change and fail to think how the pieces fall together, it can give a false impression.

Starfall currently does damage to each individual in range + additional aoe damage to those around a target being hit. It was adjusted to remove that additional aoe component but range was greatly increased. Current talents in balance allow for repeated moonfire spam doing 135% damage + 90% mana reduction as long as you keep moving. Add in the fact that you get an additional 40% damage if you're in an eclipse (lunar or solar since moonfire will morph into sunfire). Instant cast roots (without a cd - but still subject to DR)...

If anything I see more of a nerf to resto with the lifebloom nerf, ToL change, and focus going to less mobility.

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Originally Posted by Mosg2

@Alemi:

I didn't realize there was a glyph that reduced the cast time of Root by 100%... That's beyond insane.

Um Boylston, maybe uh I might uh be doing Druids now hmm? Grumble maybe grumble grumble.

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seems you're going to end up with 2 druids/ 3 shamies :-)

5 yards yeah.. thats not gonna hit anything. that's less than melee range.

people manage to avoid 36-40 yard range spells by running away as you're casting
think about it

I don't know Heyaz. You could have your "CC" key be one Druid Entangling Roots, one Druid Solar Beams, and the other three nuke. Then it rotates. A caster will be completely unable to do anything against this--You're going to be rooted, incapacitated, and silenced--And silenced in such a way that you can't trinket it.

There's just not a big Kapow!! skill like lava burst or fulminate. Meleers are a problem, and you'll really have to work at trying to take advantage of eclipse. Shifting out to heal stinks, and lack of totem protection and buff overlap also hurts.

Druids will be a mix of effectively utilizing stealth, appling IS+MF spam, and staying mobile to avoid being feared or meleed down. Other than what Mosg2 suggests with an instant cast root/solar beam round robin sequence, there's not a huge gameplay difference than how Boomkins play today.

I really like my druid team, but I made the mistake in WotLK of leveling a sub-optimal team first (Hunters) because I thought they were unique and cute. This time, I'm sticking to shaman first!

Burst will ALWAYS be good, even if the pacing of the game slows down. Plus, I have a feeling that a charged up fulmination dump is going to devastate people in BGs. There's a psychological impact that can't be ignored there. When you get ROFLstomped by a multiboxer once or twice, you're loathe to jump right in there and do it again. (DK+Rets had this fear factor in spades).

It would be different if Starsurge had a big punch like Lava Burst, but it's just not quite there, IMO.

I don't know Boylston, I'm starting to come around a weeeeeeee bit on the Druids as a second team. BG's are a totally different animal than arenas and I can see them dominating in BG's. They just have different tools than the Shaman do.

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Originally Posted by heyaz

5 yards yeah.. thats not gonna hit anything. that's less than melee range.

people manage to avoid 36-40 yard range spells by running away as you're casting
think about it

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It sounds like you're misunderstanding the mechanics because it's not center on the caster, which is what you're implying. If you read the other responses here, I think it would be clear. Think about it.

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There's just not a big Kapow!! skill like lava burst or fulminate. Meleers are a problem, and you'll really have to work at trying to take advantage of eclipse. Shifting out to heal stinks, and lack of totem protection and buff overlap also hurts.

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I agree at the lack of a huge dump on boomkins now. With the new changes to eclipse, there's no proc management so I think it'll be far easier for boxers to manage eclipses since it works on a fixed (for the most part) slider scale. Instant rooting while moving will give plenty of protection from melee, and don't forget that even a wild mushroom x5 can utterly devestate multiple melee (same time to drop a set of totems), if you take the time to drop a full set mushroom x15. Last I checked on beta they're detonating for 7k non crit, 15k crit - each. It's overkill, non-crit, on plate tanks at this point in time.

There's one main difference between boomkins and ele shamans. Boomkins Are insanely strong for AoE. Which will be devastating for pugs, but the damage is probably healable if you got some good dedicated healers. Where ele's focus is single target burst.

I think that is what makes the classes what they are. If you get the burst 4 x you can instagib people very casually, where i wonder how a boomkin will deal with 2-3 good healers.

There's no doubt boomkins can be extremely fun to play, especially vs pugs.

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Originally Posted by Alemi

With the new changes to eclipse, there's no proc management so I think it'll be far easier for boxers to manage eclipses since it works on a fixed (for the most part) slider scale.

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It's easier to manage eclipses across multiple characters. However... Multibox Boomkin PvP style is NOT to stand in one place and spurt out Wraths or Starfires over and over again. In my experience, it is a lot of loading up Moonfires and Insect Swarms on people and using Typhoon/Starfall to do great AoE burst. I rarely find myself just standing in one spot casting non-instants.

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Originally Posted by Alemi

Instant rooting while moving will give plenty of protection from melee...

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I don't buy this. They will close on you before DoTs kill them. Too many tools to close and too many tools to get out of roots. It buys you time, and probably precious little. Any melee reinforced with some heals is going to be a big problem.

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Originally Posted by Alemi

...and don't forget that even a wild mushroom x5 can utterly devestate multiple melee (same time to drop a set of totems), if you take the time to drop a full set mushroom x15. Last I checked on beta they're detonating for 7k non crit, 15k crit - each. It's overkill, non-crit, on plate tanks at this point in time.

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I have always been excited by this. Just to confirm, you're saying that at L85 in beta, you can do around 7,000 x 3 x 5 (for a 5xboomkin team) on a full pop of mushrooms? Or 105,000 without factoring any crits into the picture? That's pretty good, better than I expected.

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Originally Posted by Littleburst

There's one main difference between boomkins and ele shamans. Boomkins Are insanely strong for AoE. Which will be devastating for pugs, but the damage is probably healable if you got some good dedicated healers. Where ele's focus is single target burst.

I think that is what makes the classes what they are. If you get the burst 4 x you can instagib people very casually, where i wonder how a boomkin will deal with 2-3 good healers.

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I think Elementals can do decent AoE as well. Chain lightning puts pressure on people, and the shamans best AoE tools are good where you need them, which is at point blank range while you're getting swarmed.

I think any decent amount of enemy healing is going to cause problems for an all-boomkin team.

Fear vulnerability is also VERY high with this team.

Everything shamans were good at just gets better in Cataclysm, as near as I can tell. I love, love, love the playstyle of my druids right now, but I just think shaman will be more competitive in rated BGs.

And... if I'm wrong. I've already got the boomers sitting there at L80. :)