Talking to Bornakk about Raid Rewards in Cata

I like the rewards but hate Blizzard's philosphy as to why they're doing it. People will be forced to stay in guilds they dislike because they're invested.

Blizz said they want to penalize for changing guild. Why?? What's the damned point. Just seems like some half-baked idea that a developer with a wild hair up his ass came up with. Creating a problem where no problem even existed.

Guilds come and go all the time just keep up with you server forums. Where there's people there will be drama. What if the guild leader just turns into a total douche...

It's taking away our freedom to choose without suffering a penalty.

You guys are full of tinfoil hats and the sky is falling. I really doubt its going to be so hard to get these perks back when you switch guilds. I'm not in a guild on beta or I would give you more info; but really, nothing is ever that hard. Your qqing for really nothing.

As far as joining a "bigger guild" , if your boxing you are probably pugging with friends. What is so wrong with joining their guild, if its just your toons anyways. If they all qq and cry, turn off guild chat, unless you talk to yourself -- it will be like being in your own guild.

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Originally Posted by Iceorbz

You guys are full of tinfoil hats and the sky is falling. I really doubt its going to be so hard to get these perks back when you switch guilds. I'm not in a guild on beta or I would give you more info; but really, nothing is ever that hard. Your qqing for really nothing.

As far as joining a "bigger guild" , if your boxing you are probably pugging with friends. What is so wrong with joining their guild, if its just your toons anyways. If they all qq and cry, turn off guild chat, unless you talk to yourself -- it will be like being in your own guild.

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Actually Iceorbz, I don't see anyone here whipping out the tinfoil hats or claiming that the sky is falling and I'm disappointed that you would say that - it's the sort of hyperbolic argument that I'd hope we could keep out of these forums (especially as since the Blizzard forums have become almost useless due to the community there).

For myself, and I pretend to speak for no-one other than myself, I am merely disappointed at Blizzards anti-small guild attitude - and merely stating opposition is not QQ.

Finally, you still haven't stated (and nor has Blizzard I'll give you that) what's actually wrong with allowing small guilds a full scope of participation in these guild leveling benefits.

What is wrong with small guilds sticking to all the OTHER means of leveling? Why should Blizzard feel obligated to change what is already essentially a pretty fair system {I mean, they could very well make it that if it's not 100% your guild, then it's not a guild run} just so people who can't make 1 or two more allies can eek out a few more guild points a little faster?

I mean the way I see people talk about this guild leveling thing, you'd think you won't get anywhere at all unless you're in the top guild on the server. Make friends with another boxer on your server if it's that big of a deal. Drop some alts in his guild, have him drop some in yours and take turns raiding together. Personally, I'm not gonna worry about it, I'll level through quests, kills, achievements, leveling alts, whatever. It's a bonus, it's not a requirement.

WOW is my first MMO. I kinda thought that I was going to be playing with thousands of people. To me being in a guild and only running with the guild seems like I am only playing with 100 people (if that). I like the idea of a LFD being cross-battlegroups. I would like to have more people to choose from instead of less. If the tank in your guild run sucks, you really can't kick him and get another one. If you want to leave and go to a new run since the DPS won't play nice and the healer is getting upset, you will probably get in trouble if you leave. Even if you ask them nicely.

And again, if you get booted you lose rep. Imagine if you lost rep with Sons of Hodir after you worked hard for it. Some rep grinds kinda suck. Imagine if the guild rep grind asks you go go back and do previous raids? Not so bad, right, but now you have to do it with your guild in order to get credit. That is going to suck. I don't mind doing the work once or twice, but do you really want to have to do it 3-6 times? "Oh, that will never happen." Yeah, guilds will merge and you now play with a crappy guild that got merged together since small guilds are gone. It isn't a group of friends you like playing with, it is being as big as you can stand so you get more rewards.

I will probably just ignore guilds and do my own thing. I don't do arenas now. Not once. Not once. I don't want to do facebook linked to my account. I can just ignore another new "feature".

A guild charter requires 10 signatures, not 5. 5 people make up a party. There are no 5 man raids. If you find yourself wanting to be left alone in your own 5 man multiboxing guild, then you will suffer the consequences. If you have found another 5 boxer to do content with... how difficult is it for one of you to join the other person's guild?

I'm really not seeing the problem here.

Me either. Some people box because they like their solidarity and like to do things solo. You won't get full advantage of the new leveling perks and guild bonuses, because blizzard is trying to implement a bonus for social players, a bonus for commerradery.

I have been lucky to be In a guild that has a long standing on my server, they've been around since wow release and I feel so much at home among our members. People come and go but the relationships have been formed and we are great friends.

All this Bs about how blizz is hurting the little guild or "why can't we guild hop if they suck" is retarded. If you kill goblins in booty bay, to get your pirate suit you're GONNA lose rep with the goblins, same as leaving a guild to look for greener pastures. :p they don't want you to guild hop!

Ok, well, to reinfoce some points here, because I feel like I'm getting tarred with the same brush as some of the QQ'ers on the WoW forums.

1. I fully realise that small guilds will still be able to progress their leveling in other ways.

2. I'm expressing - AT BEST - mild disappointment in this decision, not raging from the rooftoops about another Blizzard "slap in the face(tm)".

3. To answer the specific questions raised:

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Khatovar: "What is wrong with small guilds sticking to all the OTHER means of leveling?"

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Nothing. But then, why is this avenue being closed off? The burden of proof I think should be on an argument to deny some players participation, rather than having to proof they should have that opportunity.

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Khatovar: "Why should Blizzard feel obligated to change a pretty fair system?" (paraphrased)

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Yes, the system IS pretty fair, and in my humble opinion, extending it to include very small guilds would make it even fairer - hence the question I pose then is "Why shouldn't Blizzard change it?" Again, I think the burden of proof should be on citing some reason to actively exclude some portion of the playerbase, that is, the initial assumption of any system should be to try and include as much of the playerbase as possible.

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Khatovar: "I mean the way I see people talk about this guild leveling thing, you'd think you won't get anywhere at all unless you're in the top guild on the server".

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You're getting too used to the Wow Forums. I would hope these would be an area where members could discuss things as adults, given that most multiboxers tend to be more mature types. Post a link where anyone on these forums has claimed that the system being proposed prevents small guilds for partaking in all forms of advancement.

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Khatovar: "Make friends with another boxer on your server if it's that big of a deal."

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Again, it's not that big of a deal, and yes, I do happen to be lucky enough to be on a server where there are three other 5-boxers and a number of 2-4 boxers. However, merging guilds sacrifices the benefits of the guild banks we all now have access to, so again, why should we be forced to lose that functionality?

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Fenril: "A guild charter requires 10 signatures, not 5. 5 people make up a party. There are no 5 man raids."

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If the number of persons required to start a guild formed any part of the basis of a raid, then from Vanilla we'd have all required 40 signatures for a guild to be formed. That the number of signatures required to form a guild is now the same as the number of players the smallest raid will maximally hold is pure coincidence.

Note to that as little as two toons can form a raid.

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Fenril: "how difficult is it for one of you to join the other person's guild?"

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Why should we have to first of all? Secondly, it means that where each of us once had our own personal guild banks accessable without the necessity of logging over characters, now that guild bank would have to be shared. I already make quite good use of all 6 of my own guilds bank tabs.

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Ghonosyph: " You won't get full advantage of the new leveling perks and guild bonuses, because blizzard is trying to implement a bonus for social players, a bonus for commerradery. "

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I completely understand, and even accept, I won't get the full bonuses, as I intend on keeping my own guild to myself. But the question remains, and I've yet to see a single valid answer to is why should small guilds be discouraged? What harm have they done? How have they failed to meet up to the expectations of what a guild is or should be?

Even more so, for those small guilds that genuinely are 5 or so people, by what measure have you discounted their comradery over a guild of 100 people. In fact, I'd go so far as to argue that the community spirit inside a 5 person guild is likely to far exceed the almost stranger-like association of a guild of 500 people.

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Ghonosyph: "All this Bs about how blizz is hurting the little guild or "why can't we guild hop if they suck" is retarded."

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You know, this, thank God, isn't the Blizzard forums. So perhaps you can leave the attitude that opposite points of view are "retarded" behind. I'm taking your arguments and viewpoints with respect, why not do the same for mine, eh?

Then you could explain why you feel people should be penalised for leaving a guild.

Even though I am in a rather large guild and these perks look cool and all, I see something sinister in the future coming from the beginning process of integrating guilds into larger "social" guilds. Something with RealID keeps popping into my head for some reason. Also guild micro transactions, I know right, grab the toil foil hat.

By adding perks for joining and taking away anything you have contributed when leaving they are slowly forcing the players hand. I am sure they will add more powerful perks down the road as people become more accustomed/tolerate to the changes.

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Originally Posted by OzPhoenix

Nothing. But then, why is this avenue being closed off? The burden of proof I think should be on an argument to deny some players participation, rather than having to proof they should have that opportunity.

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Who is being denied? You keep talking like Blizzard is only allowing guild advancement via this one tiny aspect. They aren't, and I find it kind of laughable that you talk about Blizzard denying players something, when these small guilds are built entirely around preventing other players from joining.

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Originally Posted by OzPhoenix

Yes, the system IS pretty fair, and in my humble opinion, extending it to include very small guilds would make it even fairer - hence the question I pose then is "Why shouldn't Blizzard change it?" Again, I think the burden of proof should be on citing some reason to actively exclude some portion of the playerbase, that is, the initial assumption of any system should be to try and include as much of the playerbase as possible.

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You explain to me why they should? You say 5, but why stop there? I can still be the highest represented guild just playing 2 toons in a 25 man raid, especially in a world full of vanity guilds. So why 5?

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Originally Posted by OzPhoenix

You're getting too used to the Wow Forums. I would hope these would be an area where members could discuss things as adults, given that most multiboxers tend to be more mature types. Post a link where anyone on these forums has claimed that the system being proposed prevents small guilds for partaking in all forms of advancement.

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I don't read the WoW forums, thanks. And I never said anything about this preventing anyone from doing whatever they want, what I am pointing out is people seem to think they should be entitled to every single thing no matter how they play, and if BLizzard doesn't agree, then they have something against you and they're actively out to get you. Like this

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Originally Posted by OzPhoenix

I just don't understand the negativity behind small guilds. There's no harm in small guilds. No-one's hurt by them, yet Blizzard seems to have a negative view of them.

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Originally Posted by OzPhoenix

For myself, and I pretend to speak for no-one other than myself, I am merely disappointed at Blizzards anti-small guild attitude - and merely stating opposition is not QQ.

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Originally Posted by OzPhoenix

Again, it's not that big of a deal, and yes, I do happen to be lucky enough to be on a server where there are three other 5-boxers and a number of 2-4 boxers. However, merging guilds sacrifices the benefits of the guild banks we all now have access to, so again, why should we be forced to lose that functionality?

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And how exactly does that prevent alts from other guilds from JOINING your guild and YOUR alts joining THEIR guild? No one loses banks, no one loses their guild name and now you've got 2 separate raid forces so both guilds win.

But you seem to be far more interested in proving this is some sort of persecution than being happy with the fact that we've all, yes ALL, got a new collection of toys to play with in guild perks.