5 shamans in WoTLK heroics?

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Originally Posted by 'TheBigBB',index.php?page=Thread&postID=170205#pos t170205

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Originally Posted by 'emesis',index.php?page=Thread&postID=170169#post1 70169

So why do two shamans stack then? This makes no sense.

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With two shaman you could stack totems up to great benefit. Like if you need a resistance or poison cleansing totem for a particular fight, you won't be sacrificing your spell haste or spell damage totem for it anymore. Plus you'd have a heroism up every 5 minutes, so you'd be able to burn it every time it's up.

With more than that, only the replenishment totems stack in a meaningful way. Everything else is just something another class can do better.

With three or more, your main benefit would be getting some extra mana or health regen, a function which can be served by other classes while adding more buffs. For example, you can have a frost mage with a water elemental to regenerate more mana and add a spell crit chance that only a mage can add through winter's chill (or scorch). And a mage's AOE is more than enough to counter a magma totem. Add a mage and a moonkin and you now have 12% spell damage taken on top of that, not to mention the buffs like mark and int and fort that you could gain with more classes in the mix.

Shaman teams work, but they don't stack like they used to. No classes do. For anything major you claim that stacks with more and more shaman, I can name you a class that does that function better while adding more of something else. This isn't a knock against anyone who's using them, as there's no such thing as a multiboxer who's getting full benefit of everything. I'm just trying to help the OP and I don't think telling him that a big shaman team is as good or better than any other team is going to answer his question properly.

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Two shamans dropping two different totems is not totem stacking. Adding a poison resistance or fire resistance totem is just taking advantage of an ability the class has, and which certainly other classes have as well. The OP asked if it was true if more than 2 shamans were "bad" because more than 2 totems won't stack. I don't believe this makes any sense.

Can you get more synergisms with multiple classes in the mix? Certainly. Multiple shamans still offer a simple configuration setup and a lot of functional flexibility. If you're all about min-maxing, you probably want a multiple class group. You're still not going to get every buff in the game, nor do you need to, in a 5 man group.

My point is not that shamans are the greatest. Simply that a tank + 4 shammies is still a very viable (and comparatively easy to manage) group setup. While buff totems do not stack, most functional ones (mana, healing, fire damage, ground) do.

Hmm...

I personally still feel that 4 shamans offer the best for PvE over any mixed class group. Case in point look at all the people boxing in PvE on this forum right now - everyone who has progressed the furthest/fastest is running tank + 4 shaman, and that setup generally has the least issues with each encounter. (Another case in point - tons of threads with people saying things like "Ok but how do you beat this guy without 4 shamans!??")

Anyway just my view, if you want to min max I still think 4 shamans is the best even before 3.0.8 (but after 3.0.8 our damage went so much ahead we obliterate things now) - even if you factor in other things you'll get with other classes that you can't get with 4 shamans, you also have to factor in that having more complex cast sequences and control will drop your effectiveness.

Now for those people who want mixed class setups because they enjoy it, or they just want more flavor, etc, then truly thats a great reason. For those that are min maxing...I don't really think you're gaining anything by having tank + 4 other classes over tank + 4 shamans. I can use myself as an example - I am in mediocre PvE gear at this point, a few epics from badges/heroics, and a couple crafted epics on each char, and then the rest is still blue quest gear, and I can blow through gundrak, DTK, UK and CoS heroics in 30 minutes each. I haven't seen someone with a mixed class setup that can do that yet (not saying there isn't one, just haven't seen it).

Now, back on topic (mostly) - as far as deciding between 1 or 2 shamans, I don't think it matters much, just going from 1-2 is probably not going to help you any more than just adding any other class instead of the second shaman.

Edit: Just wanted to add something. Someone said Shaman teams don't add anything you can't do better with mixed classes but I disagree. The way I see it, shaman teams add things you absolutely can't do with other classes but other classes don't really add anything important that you can't do with shamans. Quick fact check:

------------------------------------Shamans-only--------------Mixed classes
DD Spell Immunity---------------Yes (groundings)-----------No
Fear Immunity-------------------Yes (4x Tremor)------------Partial/No
Res/Ankh-------------------------Yes/Yes---------------------Yes/Maybe
Healing----------------------------Yes (4x)---------------------Yes (< 4x)
Maintenance Free AoE healing--Yes (Healing Stream x4)--No
Extra Free Mana Regen----------Yes (Mana Spring x4)------No/Partial
Bloodlust---------------------------Yes---------------------------Maybe
High resist bonuses--------------Yes (nature, fire, frost)----Maybe (paladin)
Poison/Disease/Curse cleanse--Yes---------------------------Maybe

These are the important things (for PvE at least, and a lot for PvP too) and as you can see the shaman have all of them, whereas mixed classes will only get you some, depending on how you mix them up. I didn't list the one big advantage of mixed classes such as HP/Mana buffs because they're actually fairly trivial in the grand scheme of things. Sure having a bit less threat or some extra hp or mana is good, but it hardly will make the difference between blasting through an instance and wiping, whereas Bloodlust, 400hp/s free aoe healing, Fear immunity, DD spell immunity, etc, can make or break an instance run, especially at lower gear levels. I would encourage anyone who has examples of things mixed groups can do that are absolutely essential that a 4 shaman team cannot do as I couldn't think of any when writing this list.

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Originally Posted by 'emesis',index.php?page=Thread&postID=170249#post1 70249

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Originally Posted by 'TheBigBB',index.php?page=Thread&postID=170205#pos t170205

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Originally Posted by 'emesis',index.php?page=Thread&postID=170169#post1 70169

So why do two shamans stack then? This makes no sense.

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With two shaman you could stack totems up to great benefit. Like if you need a resistance or poison cleansing totem for a particular fight, you won't be sacrificing your spell haste or spell damage totem for it anymore. Plus you'd have a heroism up every 5 minutes, so you'd be able to burn it every time it's up.

With more than that, only the replenishment totems stack in a meaningful way. Everything else is just something another class can do better.

With three or more, your main benefit would be getting some extra mana or health regen, a function which can be served by other classes while adding more buffs. For example, you can have a frost mage with a water elemental to regenerate more mana and add a spell crit chance that only a mage can add through winter's chill (or scorch). And a mage's AOE is more than enough to counter a magma totem. Add a mage and a moonkin and you now have 12% spell damage taken on top of that, not to mention the buffs like mark and int and fort that you could gain with more classes in the mix.

Shaman teams work, but they don't stack like they used to. No classes do. For anything major you claim that stacks with more and more shaman, I can name you a class that does that function better while adding more of something else. This isn't a knock against anyone who's using them, as there's no such thing as a multiboxer who's getting full benefit of everything. I'm just trying to help the OP and I don't think telling him that a big shaman team is as good or better than any other team is going to answer his question properly.

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Two shamans dropping two different totems is not totem stacking. Adding a poison resistance or fire resistance totem is just taking advantage of an ability the class has, and which certainly other classes have as well. The OP asked if it was true if more than 2 shamans were "bad" because more than 2 totems won't stack. I don't believe this makes any sense.

Can you get more synergisms with multiple classes in the mix? Certainly. Multiple shamans still offer a simple configuration setup and a lot of functional flexibility. If you're all about min-maxing, you probably want a multiple class group. You're still not going to get every buff in the game, nor do you need to, in a 5 man group.

My point is not that shamans are the greatest. Simply that a tank + 4 shammies is still a very viable (and comparatively easy to manage) group setup. While buff totems do not stack, most functional ones (mana, healing, fire damage, ground) do.

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First of all, I think there must be a misunderstanding because I actually 100% agree that tank + 4 shaman is a viable team and 5 shaman in PVP is still decent. They just don't stack up like they used to, but I would not say that it's a bad team.

Anyway, to clarify, when I talk about totem stacking I am talking about unique effects you can get using each type of totem. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Frost Resist Totem and Totem of Wrath are both fire totems which grant a passive and significant benefit to the group. I am calling that stacking because you have the same fire totem slot giving out a passive effect which cannot be easily replaced. (Only a paladin can replace the fire resist, but you gain a lot from concentration aura.) Anyway, magma totem is just adding some damage which is not a passive group benefit and can easily be surpassed by some other class simply casting another spell. Once you get past two shaman, it's hard for me to see how the extra totems are giving anything that you can't get some other better way, though don't get me wrong, you do get SOME bang for your buck.

Apologies if you think I don't respect shaman teams. If you look at my guild you'll see that I got 5 shamans on the roster myself... 8)

Hachoo, my main 5 man team is running with fort, mark, int, divine spirit, concentration aura, wisdom, 12% dmg debuff and 5% crit debuff, a combat rez, a water machine, instant cast spammable AOE heals, thorns, mage crit buff, and innervate. This is stuff I got not even counting the shaman which you wouldn't have on a non-mixed team. I don't see how things like grounding totems are going to make a shaman team surpass any other. It's a viable team for those worried about class management, but it's not a min/max team. Come on.

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Originally Posted by 'TheBigBB',index.php?page=Thread&postID=170402#pos t170402

Hachoo, my main 5 man team is running with fort, mark, int, divine spirit, concentration aura, wisdom, 12% dmg debuff and 5% crit debuff, a combat rez, a water machine, instant cast spammable AOE heals, thorns, mage crit buff, and innervate. This is stuff I got not even counting the shaman which you wouldn't have on a non-mixed team. I don't see how things like grounding totems are going to make a shaman team surpass any other. It's a viable team for those worried about class management, but it's not a min/max team. Come on.

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The only things in that list that might make a difference that actually matters is the damage debuff, the crit debuff, and the innervate, honestly. This is what I'm talking about. As for myself, I'd take the 4x groundings, 4x tremor, and 4x healing streams over any of those. The instant cast aoe heal is great but it isn't spammable, its on a 6 second cooldown now, unless you're talking about something else than I am. Even spammable, I still like the 4x healing stream + chain heal (1 or 4) for aoe healing.

Obviously some of this is personal preference, but its hard to argue that having everything the shamans can give along with the fact that there are no complex cast sequences involved and no god-like coordination of abilities needed possibly makes them better for min-maxing. In a perfect world where you could hit every key perfectly to use every ability you needed to use at the exact right time with multiple classes then yes of course multiple classes would be far better, but no multiboxer is ever going to reach that point - its hard for a single boxer to reach that point just playing 1 character!

Of course to each his own, I just wanted to throw my opinion out there - this is why I chose 4/5 shamans to begin with and its why I always stay with them no matter what other classes I like or hear about being awesome.

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Originally Posted by 'Hachoo',index.php?page=Thread&postID=170423#post1 70423

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Originally Posted by 'TheBigBB',index.php?page=Thread&postID=170402#pos t170402

Hachoo, my main 5 man team is running with fort, mark, int, divine spirit, concentration aura, wisdom, 12% dmg debuff and 5% crit debuff, a combat rez, a water machine, instant cast spammable AOE heals, thorns, mage crit buff, and innervate. This is stuff I got not even counting the shaman which you wouldn't have on a non-mixed team. I don't see how things like grounding totems are going to make a shaman team surpass any other. It's a viable team for those worried about class management, but it's not a min/max team. Come on.

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The only things in that list that might make a difference that actually matters is the damage debuff, the crit debuff, and the innervate, honestly. This is what I'm talking about. As for myself, I'd take the 4x groundings, 4x tremor, and 4x healing streams over any of those. The instant cast aoe heal is great but it isn't spammable, its on a 6 second cooldown now, unless you're talking about something else than I am. Even spammable, I still like the 4x healing stream + chain heal (1 or 4) for aoe healing.

Obviously some of this is personal preference, but its hard to argue that having everything the shamans can give along with the fact that there are no complex cast sequences involved and no god-like coordination of abilities needed possibly makes them better for min-maxing. In a perfect world where you could hit every key perfectly to use every ability you needed to use at the exact right time with multiple classes then yes of course multiple classes would be far better, but no multiboxer is ever going to reach that point - its hard for a single boxer to reach that point just playing 1 character!

Of course to each his own, I just wanted to throw my opinion out there - this is why I chose 4/5 shamans to begin with and its why I always stay with them no matter what other classes I like or hear about being awesome.

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Thanks for saying I have godlike coordination :thumbup: . In any case, I hope to make a video at some point of how my teams work. I think it makes a difference for me that I want to do 10 man raids, also. 8 shaman would be really overboard, so might as well learn multiple classes. Glad you like your team, and I am sure that whether you realize it or not, those extra grounding and tremors would serve you better in a PVP situation. I don't use them a whole lot in PVE or when I do one tremor has been enough to do the job. I realize that my mixed PVE teams would be SUPER fail in arenas or battlegrounds.

Oh, yeah the grounding and tremor are great in PvP - pre wotlk i actually only PvPed with my team (was running 5 shamans then) didn't run a single heroic or any instances really. PvP sucks now so I'm doing only PvE, except the occasional slaughter of alliance I run into in the world :)

By the way, Hachoo, I just noticed that you're running with a death knight tank so you get ebon plaguebringer. I fully encourage all shaman boxers to get a death knight because that 13% spell damage increase from it really would outshine any other possible tank, even a paladin... I still stand by mixed teams as the best overall potential for PVE DPS, but I think you made a wise move and probably have a better all-around team if you wanted to do PVP. I will only be PVPing with one character at a time, though.

5x shamans in heroics?

Doable for some heroics, especially if you have ilvl 200+ gear, but not easy.

mixing in a tank would really, really, make things easier.

5x shaman is still viable, but not -as- viable as in TBC.

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Originally Posted by 'TheBigBB',index.php?page=Thread&postID=172999#pos t172999

By the way, Hachoo, I just noticed that you're running with a death knight tank so you get ebon plaguebringer. I fully encourage all shaman boxers to get a death knight because that 13% spell damage increase from it really would outshine any other possible tank, even a paladin... I still stand by mixed teams as the best overall potential for PVE DPS, but I think you made a wise move and probably have a better all-around team if you wanted to do PVP. I will only be PVPing with one character at a time, though.

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This is why my pally tank is on the back burner and I am currently attempting to level my DK as quickly as possible (72).