Multiboxing and Raiding DKP

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Originally Posted by 'Toned',index.php?page=Thread&postID=115419#post11 5419

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Originally Posted by 'Tonuss',index.php?page=Thread&postID=115418#post1 15418

If you had a 4 or 5 boxer that regularly ran with your raid group, and they were getting only one character's worth of DKP... how fast do you expect to progress when one-fifth of your raid is gearing that slowly?

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Exactly.... you get it !

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You get the same amount of items no matter what order people get loot. The worst case scenario for the theoretical raiding multiboxer is that he gets his loot last. So the other people gear up first - big deal. That's probably how it should be. Raiding is about a team, not an individual. If you are in a serious raiding guild, all the staple raiders get gear in due time. You don't get more gear by distributing it better.

I've never taken a multi-boxer on a raid and never attempted to raid on more than one character. If for some reason my guild did take a multi-boxer then I would probably say that all toons earned dkp, but they are deprioritised on drafts compared to solo players. This is in order to give every person an equal chance of seeing the content. One person taking up 1/5 of the raid is not fair on the 4 people now sitting out, who could have gone with that same person taking only one character. So for me, in a raid environment a multi-boxer would basically fill in any spaces left in the raid (assuming they covered the role we needed). They can earn dkp on any characters that go and also spend it on any characters that go. For me, the resriction would come with actually getting toons into the raid in the first place.

As to how far they can go, I'd imagine that multi-boxers would only be useful as far as your guild can brute force their way through. If your guild can complete a fight with 1-4 people not doing what they are meant to do (from a strategic point of view) then you could probably taske a multi-boxer along without too much issue.

Maybe I'm underestimating the ability of multi-boxers to micro manage, but I can imagine a few encounters where a multi-boxer would be a hindrance. Getting back on the platform after Lurker's spout, keeping your alts attacking the correct target when one or more toons gets watery graved on Morogrim. For Vashj you might be vaguely useful for nuking down striders, but for handling the cores you'd be fairly useless (and maybe even detrimental if someone throws a core to an alt by mistake). Rage has the lovely icebolts, Kaz'rogal you're at risk of blowing your whole group up, Naj'entus you either ignore the spines (not useful depending on how many you are) or your alts lapse in dps whilst you focus your main on getting it out. Supremus also I could imagine being a lot of fun with the aoe and gazes.

Also I'm pretty sure that due to latency and delays for things like alts acquiring a new target, your dps wouldn't match an individual player of that class (assuming equal gear and capability - you could probably test this out by soloing on one toon and comparing it to your boxed performance on that toon). On fights that your guild has surpassed this won't be an issue, but on fights where you need everyone performing at a high level AND reacting to the strategic elements of a fight then multi-boxers really don't have much appeal.

I realise this is a very multi-box negative post, on the whole I think it's a cool, fun hobby. I just don't see how it would fit well into progress raids for a guild pushing past T4.

With all the new WotLK raids having a 10 man mode and me being in a small family guild I plan on boxing half the group with the family filling out the rest. Then DKP is not an issue.

I ran (as part of a group of leaders) a large raiding coalition in Classic WoW, we had like 7 different guilds that raided and DKP was always an issue. We also had a lot of people, we probably geared 100 people in MC, and a lot of alts. We ended up setteling on DKP per toon, it was the most fair way to do it. 1 main raiding toon what ever alts you wanted as long as it supported the group. Mains had invite and loot priority over alts.

We had two MC's running a week at one point. Had to get those damn bindings. 26 man, with 22 alts, took down of Garr for my last binding!

I think the same type of solution would be most fair to multiboxers and the rest of their group. They pick one main raiding toon and their alts are "secondary citizens" so to speak. They come to help the group but not at the expense of anyone in the group.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POy9Z...eature=related
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Now Suvega can shut up :)

I would imagine most raiding guilds would credit one toon as a main and the others as alts. I would think that is how my guild would do it. Alts can't gear up over mains but all would earn DKP (probably some things that promote attendance, like the on-time bonus, would not stack though).

Whether or not a raiding guild would take multi-boxers on progression content... Different discussion. ;)

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Originally Posted by 'Rudi89',index.php?page=Thread&postID=115870#post1 15870

I would imagine most raiding guilds would credit one toon as a main and the others as alts. I would think that is how my guild would do it. Alts can't gear up over mains but all would earn DKP (probably some things that promote attendance, like the on-time bonus, would not stack though).

Whether or not a raiding guild would take multi-boxers on progression content... Different discussion. ;)

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Guilds that would look at 4-5 DPSers in a raid that helped them down content w/o wiping and then treat them as one person for DKP/loot purposes are the kind of guilds that make people hate raiders and PuGs, IMO. /shrug

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Originally Posted by 'cheeseprophet',index.php?page=Thread&postID=11583 7#post115837

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POy9Z...eature=related
........
Now Suvega can shut up :)

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No one's going to argue that it can't be done on some or many encounters, especially T5 and lower, and especially with Aelli. I'm going to assume that this is not a progression run, though. I think my guild could take Aelli to T5 content and do fine, though I wouldn't consider it in BT.

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Originally Posted by 'cheeseprophet',index.php?page=Thread&postID=11583 7#post115837

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POy9Z...eature=related
........
Now Suvega can shut up :)

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Have you even DONE the Vashj fight?

Ellay was given the simplest role in that fight (Strider DPS), and -- you can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe his guild already had Vashj on farm status, if not terribly overgearing SSC.



In any PROGRESSION encounter, it's logical to assume that a multiboxer is a added disadvantage due to their lack of ability to move/think independantly.

Multiboxer advantages: Burst DPS against a single target.
Multiboxer disadvantages: Independant movement/CC/interrupts

Now how many PvE encounters require single target burst DPS, and how many require independant movement/CC/interrupts? How many guilds stack elemental shamans in their raids (which would likely take the place of CC dps classes)?

I'm not saying that it CAN'T be done, but any guild that isn't already farming the boss is going to have a hard time rationalizing WHY they're bringing you. Multiboxers don't have many advantages in PvE -- PvP, sure... Focused fire is great. In a guild that's min-maxing in order to progress, it's going to be a hard sell.

Given that you're a disadvantage to a progression raid, if your guild is up to the challenge of toting you around and potentially tailoring their raid to your weaknesses, you should negotiate with them how much DKP that's worth. Personally, I wouldn't settle for anything less than independant DKP per-character, non-transferrable between characters. However, if your guild is willing to bend over backwards to let you progress with them, and you're willing to take a cut in DKP -- that's your own decision.

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Originally Posted by 'Ughmahedhurtz',index.php?page=Thread&postID=11587 4#post115874

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Originally Posted by 'Rudi89',index.php?page=Thread&postID=115870#post1 15870

I would imagine most raiding guilds would credit one toon as a main and the others as alts. I would think that is how my guild would do it. Alts can't gear up over mains but all would earn DKP (probably some things that promote attendance, like the on-time bonus, would not stack though).

Whether or not a raiding guild would take multi-boxers on progression content... Different discussion. ;)

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Guilds that would look at 4-5 DPSers in a raid that helped them down content w/o wiping and then treat them as one person for DKP/loot purposes are the kind of guilds that make people hate raiders and PuGs, IMO. /shrug

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I don't think you read my post, or something. The alts would be able to gear, just not over other mains, and the 'main' for the multi-boxer would be gaining much more DKP than other folks in raid, ensuring he/she would get first pick on DPS loot. Seeing how you'd have, say, 4 shammies, odds are you'd be gearing them about equally fast with everyone else (and your main would be able to outbid pretty much everyone else). It's the same way that the guild treats folks with multiple alts who raid (though not all at the same time). With a DKP system you want to reward folks who down bosses but you want to avoid gearing up alts instead of new raiders who you need to replace folks who leave the game for whatever reason. Plus you avoid the administrative nightmare that is tracking DKP per toon, as opposed to raider, and you don't punish people who are nice enough to bring their healer alt, say, instead of their DPS main so that you have enough folks to zone.

It would be tough to always seed all the toons of a multi-box player though. If the player was flexible and could bring anything from 1-to-all of his/her toons, depending on need, I don't see how folks could object. But when you're sitting (geared/non-retarded) folks over multi-box toons I think that would end up hurting the guild recruting-wise and morale-wise. It's hard enough maintaining the numbers needed to raid with your typical guild drama and I think simply by it's nature multi-boxing would hurt your retention of folks who are the best raiders; folks who raid for content, not loot.

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Originally Posted by 'cheeseprophet',index.php?page=Thread&postID=11583 7#post115837

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POy9Z...eature=related
........
Now Suvega can shut up :)

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No offense, but this has absolutely nothign to do with my comment, you should research something before trying to rebuttell :P

The video you posted is aelli doing the most simplistic job on a fight that his guild has been farming for -months-. If you've been in a guild who's been farming content for months, you'd understand that it's like pulling teeth to get enough people to show up, (especially for fights like vash and kael).

And Toned, no offense but you're completly unrealistic, and trying to warp my words. First off I said good luck finding an understanding guild. If you happen to find one, grats to you. Secondly, in my PERSONAL view, it would be selfish to think that you can get in 4 characters at the detriment of your fellow guildmates (lol I get to take 4 characters, and you none).
That isn't a -soapbox-, it's a personal view.