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05-03-2008, 01:57 PM
Vyndree

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Zaelar',index.php?page=Thread&postID=59658#post59 658

And before you post that being 18 is a rough idea, so is every other generalization. 18 isn't the age used everywhere in the world, so someone has to be wrong.

I think most of the people touting the "18+" are talking about US-WoW, which you can argue the generalization would be "US adult = 18 therefore be a legal adult in your country of origin".

The day you become a legal adult in your country is the day you become accountable for your own choices. Which means if people start talking about controversial things in ventrilo/gchat/whatever they're not going to get some kid's mom aggro because the kid didn't ask mommy's permission before joining an adult-language guild.

And I'm personally not saying it has anything to do with maturity from my standpoint. My new guild has plenty of under-18 folks who are excellent players and we have no problems with. But we have to realize that they're less in control of what their schedule looks like, and if their parents decide they're going to summer school or whatever we've lost them almost the entire summer.
05-03-2008, 05:50 PM
Boylston

The guild I run has a "must have career" rule. We make an odd exception for a graduate student or two at times...

Then again, some of us have been playing MMOs together since about 1999. Call us old!
05-03-2008, 06:01 PM
keyclone

when you can claim to have multi-boxed net hack or rogue... then they can call you old .. i'd still call you a young whipper snapper :D
05-03-2008, 06:12 PM
Boylston

I think a Two-Terminal-ed a dikuMUD once.... Does that count?
05-03-2008, 07:16 PM
�eceased

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Zaelar',index.php?page=Thread&postID=59658#post59 658

How can you say something isn't suitable for anyone under 18? What about one day under? If yes, two days? Keep going until you stop saying yes, and then what is so magical about that particular age? It should be 18 and one week. It takes a week of maturity to actually be mature, but that means that you aren't mature during that week so it would have to be another week to get used to it...

And before you post that being 18 is a rough idea, so is every other generalization. 18 isn't the age used everywhere in the world, so someone has to be wrong.

As Vyn said, the 18 rule is all about being officially classed as an adult. That means rights to just about everything (except what is illegal ofc), but also subject to all laws without leniency (which you are entitled to as a minor).
Whilst for many things it may be seen as unfair and unjust (I myself felt that when I was a teenager - oh god I sound old now), It is that official classification, that defines the 18+ rule. It wouldn't matter officially if you were 1 day shy of 18, you would still be treated as a minor (or should at least, altho it is often partially down to the judge in question).

When looking at the vast mix of players on the EU servers, where this ages changes vastly from country to country, it is often generally accepted that 18 is the standard entry age into adulthood.

There is something we need to distinguish here btw. the 18+ rule does not apply to mental maturity, simply maturity.
There are many under 18s way, way more mature mentally, then some adults. You know, the whole scenario where kids are nearly forced to grow up fast in order to cope and face the situations they are in. and then the opposite Big Kid scenario where you have immature adults all the way to 80/90 years of age. And yet the age restriction should apply in all cases (except in cases where this restriction detrimentally impacts that person�s life and where it would not simply be a denial of a luxury).

It is unfortunate (as I felt when I was 17) that for instance, that last year I still was excluded from so many things, even tho I felt "Adults" around me were so childish in comparison. It is only now, ironically, that I am an "adult" that I realise it has nothing to do with mental maturity.

When it comes to guilds adopting this rule, as stated before it is for the protection of those under 18 and their guild members.
It is however regrettable that mental maturity is quite strongly tied to actual age (not entirely I might add), and is therefore used as a simultaneous filter do avoid it.
05-04-2008, 01:57 PM
Poolboy

So weird that this thread, 170 comments ago, started 'here', but is now............................................... .................................................. .... 'here'

lulz @ bouncing topic.
05-05-2008, 03:58 AM
Zaelar

Quote:

Originally Posted by '�eceased',index.php?page=Thread&postID=59778#post 59778

It is however regrettable that mental maturity is quite strongly tied to actual age (not entirely I might add), and is therefore used as a simultaneous filter do avoid it.

This is my point. Because it isn't entirely tied to age using age as a filter is prejudice. Just semantics, but mental maturity is only tied to age on a personal level. On a global level, just as you said, there are 10 year olds that ore more mature than 40 year olds and vice versa.

By "simply maturity", are you referring to physical maturity, ie puberty? Aside from that and mental maturity(what most people are talking about/the only kind that matters for this) I can't think of anything else. Being able to handle talking about controversial or explicit topics is purely mental maturity. It has nothing to do with how old you are. What do we have here? A somewhat controversial topic and we are discussing it without resorting to petty name calling. Our age and maturity outside of mental maturity has nothing to do with it. For all we know someone here could be 11.

As for legality, the law itself is prejudice so I'm not going to argue against an 18+ rule if the only reason for the rule is legality. I'm not trying to argue about what is legal and what isn't. I also don't want to add a debate on laws to this.

A raiding guild only allowing people who can play during certain times is not prejudice and I'm not arguing against anything like that. Vyndree['s guild] said a generalization that younger people are less in control of their schedule than older people, which I'm also not going to argue with, but I will argue against using that information to make a rule. If someone is unable to raid during the summer their age is irrelevant.

Deceased, the scenarios you gave you game don't have anything to do with maturity, just responsibility. Having a lot of responsibility at an early age just means that your mental maturity(among other things) is tested at an earlier age than most people are. Being forced to go through tough times at an earlier age means you need to be mature, while people who don't go through tough times until later in their life don't need to be, but they still can be. I'm saying that having a requirement of going through tough times at an early age because they will be mature is bad. Any other reason is either irrelevant or just plain wrong, so having the requirement at all is bad.
05-05-2008, 01:43 PM
Vyndree

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Zaelar',index.php?page=Thread&postID=60056#post60 056

Because it isn't entirely tied to age using age as a filter is prejudice. Just semantics, but mental maturity is only tied to age on a personal level. On a global level, just as you said, there are 10 year olds that ore more mature than 40 year olds and vice versa.

...

As for legality, the law itself is prejudice so I'm not going to argue against an 18+ rule if the only reason for the rule is legality. I'm not trying to argue about what is legal and what isn't. I also don't want to add a debate on laws to this.

In that case, we can agree that the argument over limiting guild membership using the legal adult age for whatever country of origin is the cause of the upset. And since we don't really have control over the legal system's choices on who is adult and why, I find guilds who choose to use this rule acceptable.

In that case, we're not seeing a case of age discrimination from the guilds if they really mean to say "legal adult". Because of this, it can't really be compared to gender discrimination which (at least in the US) is not part of any law.
05-05-2008, 05:14 PM
Ramesses

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Mak',index.php?page=Thread&postID=58496#post58496

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Wilbur',index.php?page=Thread&postID=58480#post58 480

I'm sure this post will be met with some degree of criticism.

Personally, I avoid guilds with girls in.

Reasoning behind it, is that I hate unnessecary drama and I feel that in the guilds I have belonged to where girls have been involved, that is where it stems from.

I'd say the number of girls playing at the Highest levels of WoW are probably 1/50? 1/100? Smurfette in Smurf village ratios, along with that you have the hordes of salivating hormone ridden teenagers, drama is usually inevitable.

Then theres the jealousy, etc etc.

I think most of the issue stems from game design. Most games are designed for an adolescant male audience, there aren't a huge amount of *extremely* popular games that are targetted at girls.

Its out of MMOs that you see even less girls, the FPS genre for instance, arguably *THE* most competitive around, I've never seen a girl on the podium recieving an award at Quakecon who hasn't been competing in the girl events. Girls aren't competitive in the high-end yet, but when they are, god help us all ;)

I should criticize but I will restrain myself =P

In all honestly, I can hear your point. The best guild in the world Nilithum (sp?) doesn't recruit women b/c of the drama. That's maybe another reason why I avoid guilds. I have had WoW drama before because of jealousy and it escalated into RL (I knew them) and it wasn't pleasant. It has caused me to no longer play my first two 70s because I refuse to deal with the crap that comes with it (or with them). Another reason why I re-rolled (a 70 mage) and am now five-boxing it. It was basically an issue where they couldn't separate the game from reality.

For me, the drama found me. I didn't start it or do anything (that I know of) but it comes with the territory I guess of being a female in an overly male virtual world. Does it bother me? Heck yea it does but the truth is the truth. Cheers to the guilds out there who accept women and the ones that are relatively drama-free (one day I will join you). Everyone causes drama and since there's more males that play this game then females, there's likely more drama causing males in this game. But hey, everyone sees it as they see it.

With Vent, it's hard to hide the fact that we're female but if you didn't know the player behind the screen was a female, I don't think it would make a difference. Are you telling me that if you met a phenomenal healer/MT/DPS who rocked everyone's socks off, you'd just leave that guild when you found out it was a female? What if there were a couple high end female raiders? We've already proven that we can run with the boys so why not just give us a chance?

Revealing ourselves by telling someone or through voice ruins it all but we shouldn't have to hide. A lot of us do though ( I did until I came here). I read an article where a girl is MT for a high raiding guild on a male Tauren warrior so people wouldn't hit on her. It isn�t fair but we don't have a choice yet.

I think it all comes down to how the guild leader handles it. But please, don't blame us females for all the drama. Blame those, such as Vyn's GL, who think we're not as good as them. They are the reason there is drama. Their little world is made whole by breaking something and getting to 'fix' it when in reality; all they do is make it worse.

Hopefully, the more girls that break into gaming, the more accepted it will become. Look at what Vyn has does for this community. Proof right there that we're making progress. This is the 21st century after all. I do hope though that if anyone comes across a great guild, you'll give it a chance instead of not joining because there are females. I bet you'll meet some pretty kick ass girls, who can melt your face off =P

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Maz',index.php?page=Thread&postID=58486#post58486

Before I switched realms, I was in a guild with a female GL for two years. She exhibited none of the traits you describe. Any drama in that guild came strictly from the males.

We were a pretty mature guild; almost zero younger members with most players being between 20 and 40 (strangely bunched at either end of that range with little in between).

Prior to that I was in a guild that was co-lead by a man and wife team. My closest friend in that guild was also female.

The women I've met in WoW have very much enriched the experience for me.

I definitely prefer running with older people who have a bit more understanding. And the WoW couples are adorable and it's cool when they run a guild together. I have definitely heard tons of positive responses to female gamers. Cheers to your guild! Hope your new one is just as awesome!

Interesting points. For me its less about who caused what drama in what guild, are they male, female, hermaphrodite, etc.

The point is: Guilds = drama

Not all, i suppose, good ones are less drama-ridden, but its just part of the territory. Thats why I avoid guilds. The guild I plan to create will be 5 toons, all ME! :) I suppose there could be drama, but more of the unhealthy "multiple personality" variety. Being anti-social in an anti-social game FTW!

In response to people claiming women in guilds cause drama. I am thinking there may be women out there who intentionally seek to inspire drama and dissent in a guild, but I would think they are rare and there is just as high, proportionally, a population of male versions of these trouble-makers.

I think a more accurate statement would be: most men(boys) who play WoW are not mature enough, or cannot handle their emotions/desires enough to have the presence of an intelligent, clever/witty, female guildmate. They get jealous, irrational, and THEY create the drama and issues and then say "its her fault, no women in our guild anymore!"

I'm sorry ladies, and I hate to say it but, what did you expect? Proper rational thought and respect for females in an online MMORPG dominated by adolescent teen boys? They are immature and going through puberty :) OHMIGOSH A GIRL! What do i do...ok ACT COOL! "Yo babe, <insert random immature perverted, and entirely innapropriate comment here>".

Keep in mind most of these youngsters, due to their obvious devotion to the game, have missed out on a key part of growing up. They may never have learned how to even talk to a girl, let alone how to treat one with respect. Now this could be extreme, and please keep in mind im speaking about "THEM" not "US" here at dual-boxing :) Most here seem to be adults/mature, or otherwise respectful. But boy would it be an interesting hypothesis for some sort of psychological development study. Does WoW hinder the development of social skills for those who play it extensively from ages 12-18? ;)

/end tangent - sorry, i do that
05-05-2008, 05:59 PM
Zaelar

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Vyndree',index.php?page=Thread&postID=60212#post6 0212

In that case, we can agree that the argument over limiting guild membership using the legal adult age for whatever country of origin is the cause of the upset.

I don't agree to using the legal adult age for anything other than legal reasons. It is irrelevant otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Kel',index.php?page=Thread&postID=59240#post59240

b) we have an 18+ age limit (I'm not saying that younger people can't be more mature or vice versa, but I think it helps us get less annoying wanks in the guild). I think our marketing as a 'mature' guild helps encourage more applications from 'mature' people.

Nowhere in the explanation for the rule has anything about legality come up.

How many guilds with 18+ rules do you think have that because they are afraid of getting sued?

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