I love how people say that some people say DK+Rets have no chance against healer+DKs and others say the opposite when it hasn't been tested and no one knows.
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I love how people say that some people say DK+Rets have no chance against healer+DKs and others say the opposite when it hasn't been tested and no one knows.
theory craft is just that, can only speculate. Otherwise there wouldn't be any discussions.
I see HB is too much damage for just one frost rune. and getting free HB also from procs. Zappy brought up a good point on dropping ppl while bubble. So When it comes down to it, it becomes can rets kill the DKs before bubble + wings done.
These theorycrafting scenarios really don't hold a lot of salt, especially as we don't create boxed teams to fight other boxed teams.
The fact that 4 rets can bubble and pop wings at the same time and basically do 8 seconds of decent damage with full immunity + another 12 seconds of even better damage, makes them an extremely strong team right now when paired up against another 5 players.
Who knows how either of these teams will scale @ 80. I've been playing my ally DKs a little bit more (~73) since this thread started, and can confirm that this new combo looks very promising, but can also say that I don't think it'll work well without a dedicated healer. I've only had a chance to do a few bgs with them, and the worst was WSG, where I was lucky to get 3 kills in that bg. After looking at the scoreboard, horde had 7 healers - we had none. LOL
When boxing arenas, I play all of my teams with a seperate healer with the exception of my DK/Ret team, and to me, that's one of the biggest strengths of the DK/Rets is that you are 100% self sufficient and not dependent on anyone else. The 4DK/Healer looks like that may be possible, but also looks to be a lot more challenging, but we'll see.
At first, I had severe mana issues when healing with the rets since 4.0.1, but after switching to use WoG procs to heal and having Eternal Glory (30% chance to not consume HP), it's quite easy to keep them healed up while still putting up a ton of pressure on the offense. Where this team tends to get hurt is by AOE damage -- it's easy to heal and top of 1-2 of them at almost anytime, but keeping up all 5 under heavy aoe damage is a different story.
FYI-- I don't think "burst is dead" for multiboxers. I also tend to think that 4xShaman are going to continue to remain the kings of burst, and it's going to be very effective still.
If you see my latest modeling data (backed up with some L85 PTR results from Kruschpak) you'll see that a quadbox shaman team pressing the "FS, UE+Goblin Rockets+LvB combo" will deal a ton of damage to a 25% damage resistant target.
143,000 damage to be exact in the first 2.25-2.5 seconds. No crits (other than LvB) or overloads factored in. If a traditional Chain Lightning follows that brutal assault, it piles on at least another 20,000 damage (no crits/overloads) at t=3.7sec.
For "normal" BG situations when we're hitting stuff, we have UE available every 15sec. That combo of FS, UE+LvB, Chain Lightning combo will do about 105,000 damage. Again, no crits or overloads. This is very conservative.
Plain jane FS, LvB volleys with maybe a couple shammies in Clearcasting state still pack a whallop of 65-75k in under 2.5sec. (Again, no overloads/crits in there). Pile on chain lightning or lightning bolt to kill.
Fulmination will not be usable all the time, but if you get on a roll, the charges will add up and you will be able to thoroughly demoralize people with it. When someone dies in under a second or two, they're gonna get on Vent and bitch. They get defocused and start playing badly-- or even better, they play the "gang up on the MBer" and leave BG stuff undefended (I almost prefer this).
All this burst on top of good sustained DPS capability and lots of tools to deal with multiboxing problems. When we pop our IWIN buttons, people will need a sizeable heal to land within the first 2.5 seconds or they're dead. They will need bigger heals to survive beyond the next second and a half. Even just cruising around, we will punish people who aren't attended to immediately.
Later on through Cataclysm, resilience and HP pools may outpace spellpower gains. I expect it. Even so, burst will cause healers to overreact or will be necessary for kill shots. It will be just like WotLK... soften up a couple targets and then blow the big stuff when you catch a healer off-guard. For BGs, where even good healers may not be as constantly on-their-toes as they are in arenas, I think the 4xShaman team will still continue to be the dominant team.
* * * *
So, I've showed you mine, now you show me yours. What kind of damage on 25% resilience targets are you going to put out at 85...?
Huh, the debate on burst death was on the other thread. Never doubted shaman's focus burst abilities. We were just here to cheer for the stacking frost DKs.
Shaman has been proven many times already, battle tested. Not much to discuss.
I think a lot of us have 2 teams now. Having a shaman team and a melee team.
Yeah, but I am trying to convince us (well, especially me) that running that new melee team will not be more effective than 4xShaman. The vast amount of enthusiasm about the new comp is probably a little over-hyped by my good buddy mosg2.Quote:
Originally Posted by remanz
Or, maybe I'm wrong. I guess I haven't seen what the HB and Frost Strike numbers in blue PvP gear against 25% resistant targets look like. Maybe it's much, much better than the shaman, and I need to jump on the bandwagon too!
I have some L58 DKs that I would really like to leave un-leveled... =P
I do think alot of the downplay is by people who see the potential but don't want to level haha. We really do need to see a proper test of them in PvP. Maybe some FRAPS by someone in a battleground would be encouragement? :D
Well frost DKs are definitely not gonna outburst shamans on single target, that's for sure. And it should be more on the AOE side of things.
I ,personally , still choose to go with dk + rets as this is the combo to use as I play alone. As Zappy mentioned, this is the main strength of this combo. Shamans/Dks, both need support from the healer. And whether one can play healer + 4Dks effectively in arena, that's something remain to be seen.
To continue on the Dk side of things,
Can we reallllly ignore obliterate ? At least on my single target DPS test on dummy, I need to use obliterate to get on-par DPS. Otherwise DPS is low.
taking from a comment on wowhead.com
with DK alone can bring the damage up to 320+% weapon damage. that hits more than TV. Why not use it in the rotation. It is worth to trade that 7.5k healing absorb for bigger melee hits.Quote:
Cata Obliterate (Frost):
160%--base
232%--45% Annihilation
264%--20% Glyph of Obliterate
284%--12.5% One Disease
304%--12.5% Two Diseases
328%--15% Frost Presence (counting Improved)
334.4%--4% Blood Frenzy/Savage Combat
339.2%--3% Ferocious Inspiration/Arcane Empowerment
Quote:
Originally Posted by remanz
nice to remind us on that one :)
imagine 320% weapon damage + killing machine :) would give us some nice numbers ^^
we shouldnt forget obli :)
I am not sure if shaman or dks will be better... i'm honestly leaning towards 4 shaman actually doing more damage than 4x dks. Dks get attacks once every second though, are melee, and have huge AOE pressure at all times... shaman get huge burst... it's a really hard decision.
In regular t10 gear btw, i crit for 17k with obliterate... almost twice what i crit with howling blast. BUT with the way rune regen works now i think for how WE want to play the dks it is superior to go with the howling blast and then the necrotic strike... i'd rather the extra healing pressure and take an extra second to kill someone than to risk not getting another application of it. That being said though we can assume that the damage is going to go WAY up in cata though, at level 80 my shit adds 2k to the damage as is... so you are looking at... a lot of damage(obliterate).
I think it will get much better with the first PVP set you can get for honor, which ends up giving us a lot more than 1.5x the str because of the 10ish gem slots..