Addons free from now on, per Blizzard: KeyClone okay?

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03-25-2009, 04:34 PM
zanthor

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Caspian',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189376#post 189376

Not taken as being insulting, no worries :D. Now I have to dig more.

Quote:

t={} s,u,x=strbyte,strchar,bit.bxor for n=1,(#z-1)/8 do local a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i=s(z,n*8-7,n*8+1)t[n]=u(x(a,b),x(b,c),x(c,d),x(d,e),x(e,f),x(f,g)
,x(g,h),x(h,i))end loadstring(table.concat(t))()z='

was just about the only things I pulled out with a unix strings

let me take a peek now, thanks

If you take a look the whole thing starts with z='{garbage for miles}' then one of these xor functions to decode and a loadstring to make the new code.

If you crank down into that another level you'll find the highly obfuscated code with the forforifthen type functions and even more xor encoded crap later on... after finding the 3rd layer to the onion I quit hacking at it.

Oh, and they did something that really fucks with my editor unless I put word wrap on, then it behaves ok... If I recall correctly there are also some non-printable characters encoded (like backspaces and such) to make it even more fun to unwrap by hand.
03-25-2009, 04:45 PM
Caspian

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'zanthor',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189380#post 189380

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Caspian',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189376#post 189376

Not taken as being insulting, no worries :D. Now I have to dig more.

Quote:

t={} s,u,x=strbyte,strchar,bit.bxor for n=1,(#z-1)/8 do local a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i=s(z,n*8-7,n*8+1)t[n]=u(x(a,b),x(b,c),x(c,d),x(d,e),x(e,f),x(f,g)
,x(g,h),x(h,i))end loadstring(table.concat(t))()z='

was just about the only things I pulled out with a unix strings

let me take a peek now, thanks

If you take a look the whole thing starts with z='{garbage for miles}' then one of these xor functions to decode and a loadstring to make the new code.

If you crank down into that another level you'll find the highly obfuscated code with the forforifthen type functions and even more xor encoded crap later on... after finding the 3rd layer to the onion I quit hacking at it.

Oh, and they did something that really fucks with my editor unless I put word wrap on, then it behaves ok... If I recall correctly there are also some non-printable characters encoded (like backspaces and such) to make it even more fun to unwrap by hand.

that is control characters so if you cat or more or less (unix of course) it wacks your terminal. echo ^v^o saves me.
03-25-2009, 07:57 PM
Souca

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'zanthor',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189193#post 189193

Quoted
Please provide a source for your claim that the Blizzard UI and it's APIs are free.

Lua is free under the MIT license. It can be used for any purpose, including commercial purposes, at absolutely no cost.

The Blizzard API's are documented and published for the end users to utilize. I don't need to source this as if it were not true, no UI mods would work and this discussion would be completely moot. The Blizzard UI as it natively exists is copyrighted.

I never disputed the status of Lua. It's not relevant to my point. If you want to argue my points, you need to stop dragging unrelated things into your argument in an attempt to prove me wrong.

Documentation and publication do not grant any license to the API within the game. The reason there are addons in the game is that Blizzard currently allows them but you don't have any right beyond what they allow you to do. Unless you have a contract or a license stating you have anything more than that, you are confusing lack of prevention with permission. Not locking a door may let someone into your house, but it doesn't give them a right to enter.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/eula.html

Here is the first two lines of the of the EULA (emphasis mine)

Quote:

THIS SOFTWARE IS LICENSED, NOT SOLD. BY INSTALLING, COPYING OR OTHERWISE USING THE GAME (DEFINED BELOW), YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED TO INSTALL, COPY OR USE THE GAME.

Section 2.c (emphasis mine)

Quote:

You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:

C. exploit the Game or any of its parts, including without limitation the Game Client, for any commercial purpose, including without limitation (a) use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location-based site without the express written consent of Blizzard; (b) for gathering in-game currency, items or resources for sale outside the Game; or (c) performing in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling;

You've never been allowed to charge for addons, they're just making their stance clear now.

Section 4.a (emphasis mine)

Quote:

All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Game and all copies thereof (including without limitation any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, character inventories, structural or landscape designs, animations, sounds, musical compositions and recordings, audio-visual effects, storylines, character likenesses, methods of operation, moral rights, and any related documentation) are owned or licensed by Blizzard.

The API is not free. It never has been. It is owned and licensed by Blizzard. End of story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Suvega',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189305#post1 89305

Blizzard owns a game, and has licensing rights for people to supply 3rd party additions to the game. It is their right, no matter what you asshats say, to dictate the licensing rights.

They made a stand that they want people to only have to pay for the game, and if anyone wants to go out of their way in their spare time to make an addon go ahead. People should NOT try to make a business off of addons.

Amen! There are a good deal of people that think the Addon APIs are "free as in beer", but don't realize that there are licensing terms. Yes, you own your addon code, but that doesn't mean you have any rights to run it inside WoW beyond the ones Blizzard grants you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Suvega',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189305#post1 89305

Just because the method for creating the 3rd party additions is using a public language (LUA), doesn't mean that it isn't a licensed 3rd party addition to a proprietary game.
Guess what, C / C++ / Java / Etc are all public domain languages, but that doesn't mean anything against the legal implications of licensing.

Requoting you since you have it right and people need to read this.

Now if you want to discuss whether Blizzard should have the legal rights they do, then you want to discuss IP law, but it doesn't change the current situation.

- Souca -
03-25-2009, 08:19 PM
Ualaa

Take an addon such as Quest Helper.

Let's assume the author decides to quit his day job and solely develop this addon as his source of livelihood.
Assume he values his time to be worth "xx/hr" and his living expenses to be "Y".
He adds the "xx/hr" value to the "Y" value and comes up with his cost per month to live and develop the addon "Z".

Now he creates a link on his website for download of the addon.
The link opens a window, where you can choose to donate to paypal, but are not obligated to do so at all.
It also has a window for email notification.

Once optional donations total "Z" or more, everyone who chose to receive notification is given the download link.
At which point you can download the addon.
Until the amount agreed to be donated reaches "Z" no one is actually charged.

I'm not arguing this would work, but asking if this was the model used, what would Blizzard's response be?
Basically, its free and not charged for, but if completely optional donations are not sufficient, it is not offered.
Still not charged for.
03-25-2009, 09:33 PM
Souca

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Ualaa',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189438#post18 9438

Let's assume the author decides to quit his day job and solely develop this addon as his source of livelihood.

Then he has made a huge mistake. I know you are trying to provide a method to allow people to get past the whole "no charging for addons", but the belief that you can legally make money by developing addons for WoW is a fallacy. The EULA prohibits profiting from WoW , so unless you negotiate something with Blizzard beyond the standard terms of the EULA, you have no right to sell your addon for use in the game.

You have never been able to profit from addons. While everyone is bemoaning how developers like Carbonite have lost a revenue stream, you should really be thinking how lucky they are that they haven't faced legal action from Blizzard for any sales. Blizzard could have sued them and been well within their rights, but instead they stopped it before things grew. Feel free to think I'm apologizing for Blizzard, but Carbonite never had any legal right to charge for their addon.

- Souca -
03-26-2009, 03:28 AM
Sam DeathWalker

Quote:

Blizzard could have sued them and been well within their rights

Thats far from settled, we have to see how the Courts deal with the situation.

Blizzard has the right to profit from their work.

Don't you also have the right to profit from YOUR work?

I notice WoW has Orcs. There were no Orcs before JRRT....

Quote:

Which book was cited "greatest of the century" in several British polls? Which first two films of a trilogy grossed more than $1.8 billion worldwide? What author sold at least 100 million books -- 11 million in the United States alone last year -- and also wrote what has been called "the world's most popular work of fiction"?

If you're thinking Ulysses, Star Wars, or J. K. Rowling, think again. The answer to all three is John Ronald Reuel Tolkien and his much beloved, misunderstood, and now massively marketed The Lord of the Rings.

Blizzard themselves are profiting from the work of others, legal or not, by tapping a 100 million person potential market.
03-26-2009, 05:03 AM
Souca

[quote='Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189505#p ost189505]
[quote]Blizzard could have sued them and been well within their rights[/quote]

Thats far from settled, we have to see how the Courts deal with the situation.
[/quote]

The court case you are likely referring to is not relevant to this. Read the EULA I referenced. That's enough to prevent this. Next.

[quote='Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189505#p ost189505]
Blizzard has the right to profit from their work.

Don't you also have the right to profit from YOUR work?
[/quote]

I don't have the right to violate Blizzards rights. I was never given the right to profit from addons, in fact the licensing terms expressly prohibit it. Being ignorant of the license doesn't let me ignore the terms of the license. By creating my work in violation of the terms of the license I've left myself at the mercy of Blizzard. So no, in this case I have no right to profit from my work.

[quote='Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189505#p ost189505]
I notice WoW has Orcs. There were no Orcs before JRRT....
[/quote]

Check your sources. You are wrong. By Tolkien's admission Orc's derived from Beowulf.

From [url='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)#Tolkien.27s_influences']http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)#Tolkien.27s_influences[/url]:

Quote:

Orc is from Old English orcneas, which appears in the epic poem Beowulf and refers to one of the races who are called the offspring of Cain during the initial description of Grendel ("�anon untydras ealle onwocon,/eotenas ond ylfe, ond orcneas," ll. 111-112). In a letter of 1954 Tolkien gave orc as "demon" and claimed he used the word because of its "phonetic suitability" - its similarity to various equivalent terms in his Middle-earth languages.[1] In an essay on Elven languages, written in 1954, Tolkien gives meaning of 'orc' as "evil spirit or bogey" and goes on to state that the origin of the Old English word is the Latin name Orcus � god of the underworld.[2]

Next.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189505#p ost189505

Quote:

Which book was cited "greatest of the century" in several British polls? Which first two films of a trilogy grossed more than $1.8 billion worldwide? What author sold at least 100 million books -- 11 million in the United States alone last year -- and also wrote what has been called "the world's most popular work of fiction"?

If you're thinking Ulysses, Star Wars, or J. K. Rowling, think again. The answer to all three is John Ronald Reuel Tolkien and his much beloved, misunderstood, and now massively marketed The Lord of the Rings.

Blizzard themselves are profiting from the work of others, legal or not, by tapping a 100 million person potential market.

The fact that Tolkien derived fiction makes lots of money isn't relevant; it has no bearing on license terms. Furthermore your attempt to imply that Blizzard is in violation of copyright laws from "profiting from the works of others" shows your lack of understanding how copyright laws work. Should I provide you with the legal tests used to determine if a work is considered derived, or merely inspired?

The "100 million person potential market", what's that about? People like fantasy so the rules are different? Would it matter if it was a market 100 billion or just 10? It's irrelevant either way; stop attempting to sway people with emotion and "big numbers". Please use facts.

- Souca -
03-26-2009, 01:50 PM
Sam DeathWalker

As your above quote verifies the word "orc" did not exist before tolkien. WoW uses the word "orc" not "orcneas". I understand that Blizzard is not in legal violation of copyright laws, yet they are stealing from Tolkiens work (legally). Blizzard added work to Tolkiens work, as well as 1000's of others, purposly taking advantage of a large built in audience. They really have little moral standing as to claiming others are ripping off their "original" work. You are not going to suggest that WoW does not use ideas first seen in EQ or fantasy characters used extensivly in other works for years before Blizzard was even a company.

There has been no real test of the EULA. Ya some have been upheld by Courts in the past, but not to a stright up challenge to their legality. There is no signature nor even a digital signature involved. Plus there are other avenues of attack as well.

Quote:

licensing terms expressly prohibit it

As a Landlord I could make a contract stating that you cannot complain about poor conditions. Such contract would be tossed out by the Courts as unenforceable. Merely putting words on a peice of paper dosn't make it law. As I say the whole issue is far far from settled.

So your point is that people don't actually own their characters, regardless of the work they put into creating them?
03-26-2009, 02:12 PM
Bigfish

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc, the usage of "orc" was observed before Token popularized it.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that orcs in warcraft were apparently derived from the ones in warhammmer, (noting the green skin and oversized, fanged mandible) which were derived from Gary Gigax's use of them in Chainmail/DnD, which were inspired from Lord of the Rings, which was taken from various old fairy tales and legends, etc.

Of course, my only concern is why Orcs in game are always hunched over when they are previously depicted as standing straight. Did the whole population suddenly get Scoliosis?
03-26-2009, 02:21 PM
Souca

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189657#p ost189657

As your above quote verifies the word "orc" did not exist before tolkien. WoW uses the word "orc" not "orcneas". I understand that Blizzard is not in legal violation of copyright laws, yet they are stealing from Tolkiens work (legally). Blizzard added work to Tolkiens work, as well as 1000's of others, purposly taking advantage of a large built in audience. They really have little moral standing as to claiming others are ripping off their "original" work. You are not going to suggest that WoW does not use ideas first seen in EQ or fantasy characters used extensivly in other works for years before Blizzard was even a company.

We don't say "thee" anymore either. Tolkien was a linguist, he advanced the language. Words can be trademarked, not copyrighted. Using words like "stealing" is an attempt make an emotional point, please stick to law and logic. You disputed Blizzard's legal rights based on Tolkien work having precident, yet now you admit they did nothing illegal; what are you trying to prove here?

They aren't taking a "moral stand" on other ripping their work off. You are implying that is the basis for what they are doing. I stated they had the legal right to do so. Once again you turn to morals in an attempt to make an emotional argument. I'm making a legal argument which you challenged, not an ethical or moral one.

Additionally you continue to argue based on the content in terms of story. The heart of the issue is the API. Did Tolkien invent the Blizzard UI and API? How are Orcs relevant to people violating a licensing agreement by charging for use of a work based on said API?

I'm suggesting nothing about the source or inspiration of Blizzard story or fantasy world. You brought it up. I merely pointed out a factual error you made regarding the origin of Orcs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189657#p ost189657

There has been no real test of the EULA. Ya some have been upheld by Courts in the past, but not to a stright up challenge to their legality. There is no signature nor even a digital signature involved. Plus there are other avenues of attack as well.

There doesn't have to be a challenge for a EULA to be enforceable. Just because something hasn't been tested in court doesn't give you the right to ignore it. Until law is overturned or interpreted by the courts it's still law. Even if you don't like it.

What are you referring to with signatures? Other avenues of attack? I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Would you mind clarifying for me?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189657#p ost189657

Quote:

licensing terms expressly prohibit it

As a Landlord I could make a contract stating that you cannot complain about poor conditions. Such contract would be tossed out by the Courts as unenforceable. Merely putting words on a peice of paper dosn't make it law. As I say the whole issue is far far from settled.

No, you can't. There are laws that dictate tenant rights. There are also laws that dictate contract law. There is no court decision that invalidates the EULA so it stands. Your insistence that a contract or law must be tested by the courts before it is valid is wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=189657#p ost189657

So your point is that people don't actuall own their characters, regardless of the work they put into creating them?

I never stated that. However, according to the terms of the license you agreed to when you install the game and the license you agree to when you log on to the online service, you are correct. You do not own your characters. Period. You accepted those terms voluntarily; there was no duress. It's a valid contract.

- Souca -

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