10 boxing - group theorycrafting thread

[Stabface]

Looking forward to WOTLK, there are a lot more 10 man raids coming down the pipe. So is it time to start thinking about kicking it up a notch and move to 10 boxing? I have been, starting a thread to theorycraft about ideal group makeup:D
Of course its a little hard, since we don't know much about WOTLK 10-mans and how the fights will work. But we can look at it from a multi-boxing perspective and figure out what combos would be easy to control and flexible enough to handle most fights. Movement fights and gimmicky things like that will of course be hard no matter what class makeup you have. But surely some if not most of the content will be doable by a 10-boxer.


What is the best group makeup for 10-boxing? Nixy is using ... Prot Paladin, Holy Priest, Holy Paladin, and 7 DPS = Mage, Warlock x2, Shaman x4 ? Any other successful 10-boxers out there?

Seems like a good balanced 10-man group is 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 6 dps, with some hybrids in there so if you really need extra healer or dps you can swap roles. With sufficient gear you can start dropping a tank or healer for extra DPS, but for hitting L80 and starting on 10 mans it seems a balanced group would be best (then respec something later on).


2 tanks : Protection Paladins. Well, 1 tank is good for most all existing 10 man content but on some fights 2 tanks are pretty much an absolute requirement (like ZA Bear boss). So maybe go 1x Prot Paladin, equip the druid with tank leather that would otherwise just get melted, and pick up a DPS.

2 healers : Tree Druid, Holy Priest perhaps? Great single target heals + HoTs, AoE healing for raid damage, fort + mark. Seems like the best 2-healer combo you can get. Druid gets all the feral tank gear so if you need him to tank he can.

6 DPS : Thinking about... 1x Shadow Priest, 1x Warlock, 4x Shaman ? 1x spriest is almost a given, obviously. 1 warlock seems like it's worth it for SS, soulwell, +damage curse and they make pretty good 1-button-DPS with some clever enough macros. And I already have 4x L70 Shaman... but I could level something else easily enough. 4x Mages perhaps for sheep and AoE power? 4x Warlocks and for Seed of Corruption AoE madness?


Ideas? Thoughts? How will a Deathknight fit in?

[Kedash00]

i temporarily turned off my main 5 accounts and bought 5 more about a month and a half ago, they are lvl 42 at the moment, i was going to try soloing kara, i'll post more when they hit 70 and get some decent gear on the project...

right now i have my origional 5:
Pally (tank)
Priest (healer)
Lock or shammy i haven't decided
Lock
Mage

The extra 5:
Shammy
Shammy
Priest
Druid
Druid

I dont even know if my second pc will run 5 but i know my first pc will but as it gets close i'm gonna test it out. might try to run them through mc or something just for fun.

Should only be another month or so till i get the extras to 70
I dont know if i can control 2 tanks so i didn't level a second one up, but we shall see if you can solo tank kara :P

[Farleito]

I've got much repect for those of you who 4+ box... so don't take this the wrong way... I'm just curious...

10 boxing is like.... having sex on extacy. You just can't go back. You've just ruined regular sex. Everything else just isn't the same anymore and it's expensive to keep doing it. When I say expensive, I'm not talking money. $150-$200 a month is just a couple of hours of work for most of the people on this forum. It's expensive in the sense of time and dedication to keep it going. It only takes 3-4 toons to one shot something and if you focus on multiple targets, it takes too much time to set up, no? When one mob falls, a few toons are standing around w/o a target? You can't level them all together because you can't complete quests in a raid.

I guess I'm thinking more from a PvP perspective. Hitting someone for 40k damage is a bit overkill. Are you guys strictly running 10-mans? When/if you do 5-mans, how do you decide who runs it, and do you find it a bit....repetitive to gear the other 5? When you do play only 5, is it boring? What about when you play 1 toon?

I'll admit that running heroics w/ my 3x shammy team is somewhat difficult because I have to find a healer and a tank..and I pull agro all the time. However, I own face in the bg's. I'm always on the top for hk's, kb's and damage done. I found it easier to gear my guys by pvping rather than raiding/heroics.

Maybe world PvP w/ 10 is feasible. You could probably take over major cities by yourself. I've run kara w/ my 3 shaman team, just to see how complicated it would be and I must admit it was fun... but got old very fast.

[Stabface]

Well, my intent is 10-box for PvE only. I don't see that 10-man in PVP really is useful.

[daviddoran]

Well, my intent is 10-box for PvE only. I don't see that 10-man in PVP really is useful.

It'd be fun to pwn some towns with 10 70s, but eventually with all the fear bombs, deaths, it would get too hard to manage.

I know I'd soil myself if I was in Gadgetzan or Booty Bay and 10 70s of the opposite faction were rolling the place...

[Bradster]

While Xzin and I were coming up with a guild name (settled on the zerg) Xzin suggested "GG Debuff limit" Could you Imagine 10 lock dots ? rofl

[Nixi]

If I were to do it over again, (or just add classes) I would probably just go with 3 paladins and 7 shamans. Having so many classes with such limited button space firmly implanted in my muscle memory means i'm using everyone at like 10% effectiveness. I'd rather just cut classes and increase effectiveness.

I'm not sure if I could clear to Attunmen in Kara without at least 2 shamans having tremor totems in each group. Using 2 shamans per group (4 total) is pretty good at keeping people together, but 3 shamans per group (tremor totem is on a 3 sec pulse) would be the best. One of the reasons I can't do nightbane by myself is because of the fear. I put 3 shamans in my tank group, and he's good, but my other group with only 1 tremor totem is dicey. Once a toon ran outta '/follow' range and I wiped because i switched control over to him to bring him back to the pack. 2 tremors in each group means my tank could get turned around and run far enough for the boss to move (and my 9 toons get tail swiped).

Any time your dealing with fear you need a shaman. No other classes/abilities/trinkets/racials can reliably keep your team together. In PVE, the enounters might have fears spread far enough apart that trinkets+other stuff can keep the fear off, but in pvp forget it. You need a shaman.


10 boxing is like.... having sex on extacy. You just can't go back.

Lol, that made me chuckle. :)

I do have to disagree on this though. Since in WOW the primary group structure is the 5 man, you'll find that having 10 toons is combersome. Just like someone said about running the same heroics over and over. Well you have to keep your whole team progressing. That means farmnig the same damn instances x 2. I mean, you're probably farming heroics for badges and thinking, 'ugh this is old'. Just imagine trying to do it twice....

TBH i can't do it. I have a fulltime job and g/f. Contrary to popular belief (as I understand it from all the reponses I got on the 10 man video. lol) I do things other than play Wow.

I was actually wanting to add more warlocks to the team. I originally had one, then I leveled another thinking about how awsome locks are with plans on bringing the count up to 4. I still might level 2 more. Most of my grinding time is during downtime at the office, so I can't fire up 5 accounts (without serious chocking my work PC) so I just play 1-4 toons. Leveling new guys is fairly easy for me.

[Knapenburger]

10 Retridins!

Would smash any boss to fuck!

[Bunny]

I have a group of 5 shams at 70 as well as a holy priest. I have always played with the idea of 10 boxing but never really got around to doing it for several reasons. I recently decided I will give it a shot for wotlk (ofc inspired ny nixi). There will be so much more to do with a group of 10 in wotlk than in bc (basically only kara). I thought about it for a while and decided to level 5 more characters on the same accounts and later transfer them to 5 new accounts. My shams run the fast 6 sso dailies to earn money (~300g for 30m every day) and the rest of my (limited) time I level my new group. I try to make as much money and get all tradeskills for all toons to 375 to be prepared for wotlk. I also collect herbs and leather as I level up the new groups gathering profs to be ready for a char to have the new profession.

As for the composition of the new group I went with:
prot pala
heal pala
mage x 2
lock


Add to this my already 70s:
4 sham (1 will be ditched)
1 healpriest

and I think I will have a decent group. It is almost the same as nixis setup. The heal pala is going to be my second tank for the fights where one is needed; one sham has to heal if that is the case. I considered adding a driud for motw and tanking/healing capabilities but decided not to. One of the advantages of the new group: all are be and could be started in the same starting area. The new group is currently lvl 14 but is going to be a lot of fun when i get into the 20s due to its aoe capabilities.

Anyways, if that doesn't work I ccan always add a dk or two or three....
Bunny

[Lyonheart]

I'm thinking that the same logic that makes the perfect 5 man group would work for 10 mans in 'most" cases. Two palies and 8 shaman? And in WotLK this will be even more true due to totems effecting the whole raid. 10 man raiding will be level 80, and in WOtLK Shamans will have HEX for CC, even though it sounds like hex will not be spammable. Hex will have a long cooldown ( one minute or more ) with 6-8 shaman that wont be an issue. You would only need to HEX some targets. Now the only thing that will keep this make up being "perfect" will be decursing. you will need a mage or druid for some DCing. but for me.. i will swap out a shamy for one of the above only on fights where its needed.

Now if they nerf the stacking totems then this will be less effective. But if they don't? 7 healing wave, 6-8 grounding totems, all those tremor totems, and ToWs !??!! they will effect the whole raid!!! I will be leveling a druid and a warrior for fights that demand them. I have a mage and priest now. Ill be 10 boxing in WotlK 8) And maybe they will add a totem that removes curses ? ok I can only dream!

[Havelcek]

Tell ya one thing, being able to "solo" Kara at 80 will make boosting alts pretty nice.

[Lyonheart]

just picked up my last 3 copies, i have had 7 acnts for awhile now ( 5box team and a mage and priest to feed and buff my team )

[noir]

2 Tankadins

2 Elemental Shamans

2 Restoration Shamans

2 SP -- mana for each group

1 Lock -- soulstone, CotE, healthstones, summon

1 Mage -- honestly, just for table and portal

[Talamarr]

I think 1 tankadin + 1 feral druid would give you the best options. Tankadins have very limited uses when they are not actively tanking; a feral druid could still offer some DPS and helpl with gimmick fights that silence.

[Drizzit]

From the ghetto news going around Warriors might be good tanks again. Looks like they are going to get an aoe affect. But i see where you are going with druid. Warriors might.... key word might... be better for boxers in the future.

[Drizzit]

10 Retridins!

Would smash any boss to fuck!

Eternity = 10 Holly Pallies

[Ughmahedhurtz]

10 Retridins!

Would smash any boss to fuck!

Eternity = 10 Holly Pallieslol...a prime example of Yin and Yang. :P

[Stabface]

If I were to do it over again, (or just add classes) I would probably just go with 3 paladins and 7 shamans. Having so many classes with such limited button space firmly implanted in my muscle memory means i'm using everyone at like 10% effectiveness. I'd rather just cut classes and increase effectiveness.


Why 3 paladins? 2 prot 1 holy ?

[Lyonheart]

although SPs.warlocks and other class combos make for better raid compositions in the "normal since", multiboxing demands simplicity as much as you can. Just like in 5 man heroics, where 5 shaman or 4 lack in CC..added buffs/debuffs. they more than make up in fire power and overall utility. Running 10 acnts with too many classes has got to be one big pain in the ass. So as few classes and you can get away with is best IMO.

We already know shaman make for super easy multibox friendly management. So the question is " would 6-8 shamans and two tanks ( any kind or combo of tanks ) work for most encounters. less buffs ? well tons of totems and every single totem would be down. way more dps than you will get out of mixed combos. In order to maximize a lock or mage dps, for example, you need to mash more than one button really. Not so with shamans.

So dealing with tanking two mobs at a time.. healing those two tanks and spot healing the raid AND dpsing= as few classes as possible, right?

[Suvega]

The quesiton is how geared your tanks are, and how leet you are:


If you can gear out a prot paladin really uber like, then take prot pallies. Tank everything and bomb heals on him.

If you can't gear out enough to do that, then bring some CC (Mages are nice).
If you're really leet, roll a warrior. They require ALOT MORE BUTTON PRESSES, but can tank things that hit much harder with less gear, however multiple target tanking sux ass.

[Drizzit]

however multiple target tanking sux ass

That might change come WotLK

[Sarduci]

Why 3 paladins? 2 prot 1 holy ?1 Prot tank
1 Ret off tank (easier to generate aggro when you are the OT and has better DPS when not tanking)
1 Holy off-off-tank in a pinch (still wearing plate and will probably be high on the threat chart)

3 seals, 3 blessings, 3 auras, 3 bubbles

I'd just be amazed with the +21% to hit with ToW.......

[Drizzit]

If wrath does stack would it be wise to do 9 shams and a pally? Drop down 9 wraths, when pally needs heal you can 4 x healing wave. You'll have 4 fire/earth elementals. With the 9 totems you have a 27% chance to crit/hit just on totems alone and including armor bonus. You never know they also might give us a better totem later on. With gear you should be able to pull like almost 60% crit/hit rate. You'll hit everything and crit everything lol. That is just crazy.

[Stabface]

I don't think dropping to a single tank is feasible, because there will be fights where having 2 tanks is absolutely required at any sort of obtainable gear level. Just look at Bear boss in ZA as an example, while it is (probably) possible to single-tank him you will need the healers and tank to have probably T6/Sunwell loots to do so.

[Suvega]

however multiple target tanking sux ass

That might change come WotLK

Everything might change come WotLK, hell my Circle of Imba has a CD :(

However, warriors "Niche" is powerful single target tanking with great threat and decent avoid/ mit.
Bears have great mitigaiton, and good 3 target threat.
Pallies can AoE tank like it's no prob
and DK can Spellcaster tank.


I doubt they'll change these paradigms, as it would affect the other 3 tank classes.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

If wrath does stack would it be wise to do 9 shams and a pally? Drop down 9 wraths, when pally needs heal you can 4 x healing wave. You'll have 4 fire/earth elementals. With the 9 totems you have a 27% chance to crit/hit just on totems alone and including armor bonus. You never know they also might give us a better totem later on. With gear you should be able to pull like almost 60% crit/hit rate. You'll hit everything and crit everything lol. That is just crazy.Be careful what you wish for. :P

[-silencer-]

I wouldn't be suprised at all if they take out the stacking of Totem of Wrath in WotLK.

[Lyonheart]

I wouldn't be suprised at all if they take out the stacking of Totem of Wrath in WotLK.

Only reason they would is if they think most guilds will want more than 5 shaman in a raid. I dont think they will nerf totems based on the fact that multiboxers play multi shaman. But they might, I hope not!

[noir]

On Retadins....

Feral Druids can OT w/o respeccing.
Arms Warriors can OT w/o respeccing.
Ret Pallies cannot OT, period.

Holy Shield is too deep into Prot, and w/o Holy Shield, you just can't tank effectively -- and that deep into Prot prevents you from getting Crusader Strike, your bread and butter instant ret attack.

If you want a silence-immune tank, you want a druid, as they can still multitank, unlike wars which rely on micromanagement.

And yeah, if you're 10-boxing, just say no to CC. That will never happen reliably.

[Suvega]

Arms Warriors can OT w/o respeccing.
...
And yeah, if you're 10-boxing, just say no to CC. That will never happen reliably.

LOL Wut?

A) my war as arms builds no threat tanking, almost unusable.

B) Hate to tell ya, but UNLESS your tank is OVERGEARED for a 10 man, you will NEVER be able to do it w/o CC.

CC is COMPLETLY viable, I do it daily. L2focus :P

[noir]

TankSpot ('http://www.tankspot.com/forums/karazhan-zul-aman/35290-kara-ot-warrior-spec.html') folks seem to do it fine. And I've done KZ with a guildy's Fury war on OT duty, zero problems. And yeah, he's OP -- BoJ fists and a be.imba.hu of 227+ (Sunwell level).

[Suvega]

My conclusion from seeing 10 mans, and doing them with vyndree is:

Most viable tank - Paladin
HOWEVER, you ahve to wait until he is -really- overgeared. Otherwise threat/mitigation/mana issues will arise from tanking mobs that were intended to be cc'ed.

Second most viable - Druid
Less buttons, good threat and avoidance given on par gear with instance

Least viable - War
MICRO MANAGEMENT HELL - however can deal w many diff issues if you're pro. (like me ;) )

[Schwarz]

Totem of wrath talk time. There is no way in hell this is going to transfer to a stackable raid buff. I would hate to go 7 shamen and 3 pallys and have them nerf the crap out of totem of wrath. Already have 5 shamen what is next?

Also something to think about. Only reason 5 shamen can do some heroics is beacuse of the earth ele's. Unless they give us an upgraded totem pet this could change in WOTLK.

What other classes will give good buffs to other classes. From wow wiki

Druid:

* Mark of the Wild/Gift of the Wild - armor, all attributes, and resistances for target/target's party
* Thorns - reflective damage for target
* Innervate - massive short term mana regeneration for target

Hunter:

* Aspect of the Pack - run speed for party
* Aspect of the Wild - nature resistance for party
* Trueshot Aura - attack power for party
* Wolf
o Furious Howl - short term damage increase for party

Mage:

* Arcane Intellect/Arcane Brilliance - intellect for target/target's party
* Amplify Magic - increased incoming spell damage and healing for target
* Dampen Magic - decreased incoming spell damage and healing for target

Paladin:

* Auras - Auras affect the Paladin's party
o Devotion Aura - armor
o Retribution Aura - reflective damage
o Concentration Aura - reduced spell interruption from damage. With improvement from talent: reduced duration of silence
o Sanctity Aura - increase holy damage. With improvement from talent: slight increase of all damage
o Shadow Resistance Aura - shadow resistance
o Frost Resistance Aura - frost resistance
o Fire Resistance Aura - fire resistance
o Crusader Aura - increase mount speed
* Blessings - Blessings affect single targets, while greater blessings affect the target's class in party/raid
o Blessing of Might/Greater Blessing of Might - attack power
o Blessing of Wisdom/Greater Blessing of Wisdom - mana regeneration
o Blessing of Kings/Greater Blessing of Kings - all attributes
o Blessing of Salvation/Greater Blessing of Salvation - threat reduction
o Blessing of Sanctuary/Greater Blessing of Sanctuary - incoming damage reduction and reflective damage
o Blessing of Protection - short term immune to physical damage; temporarily removed from aggro list; remove all pre-existing bleeding effects
o Blessing of Freedom - short term free movement; remove all pre-existing snare effects
o Blessing of Sacrifice - short term damage transfer from target

Priest:

* Power Word: Fortitude/Prayer of Fortitude - stamina for target/target's party
* Power Word: Shield - short term damage absorption for target in Priest's party
* Power Infusion - short term increase in spell damage and healing for target
* Divine Spirit/Prayer of Spirit - spirit for target/target's party
* Shadow Protection/Prayer of Shadow Protection - shadow resistance for target/target's party

Rogue: rogues have no buff for party members.

Shaman:

* Earth Shield - healing and reduced spell interruption from damage for target
* Water Breathing - target can breathe under water
* Water Walking - target can walk on water
* Totems - Most totems affect the Shaman's party and last 1 or 2 minutes
o Strength of Earth Totem - strength
o Grace of Air Totem - agility
o Fire Resistance Totem - fire resistance
o Frost Resistance Totem - frost resistance
o Nature Resistance Totem - nature resistance
o Windfury Totem - chance of extra attack
o Flametongue Totem - additional fire damage
o Stoneskin Totem - incoming melee damage reduction
o Mana Spring Totem - mana regeneration
o Mana Tide Totem - short term mana regeneration
o Totem of Wrath - spell hit and crit chance
o Healing Stream Totem - heals party
o Windwall Totem - incoming ranged damage reduction
o Tranquil Air Totem - threat reduction
o Wrath of Air Totem - spell damage and healing

Warlock:

* Unending Breath - underwater breathing for target
* Detect Invisibility - increase detection of invisibility for target
* Imp
o Blood Pact - stamina for Warlock's party
o Fire Shield - reflective damage for Warlock's party
* Felhunter
o Paranoia - increase stealth detection for Warlock's party


So I guess the idea is what combination would possibly give the best buffs/chance of clearing 10 man content in WOTLK

[Stabface]

As long as you have 2+ mobs and can single-tank/heal stuff, then tank/heal and 8 Warlocks?

Seed of Corruption with +1K damage = ~2300 damage AoE. If you have no spell haste, that's 9200 raid DPS to EACH secondary target! The AoE damage cap limits you to ~55K (lol wut??) raid DPS assuming no haste or crit.

Anyone got stats on the new ranks of SoC in WotLK ? :D

[Bena]

SoC is a threat magnet.. if you're going to cast it make sure that by the time you're done casting everything is dead. Otherwise the locks will die as soon as first SoCs go off... sad SM experience here... ;(
As long as you have 2+ mobs and can single-tank/heal stuff, then tank/heal and 8 Warlocks?

Seed of Corruption with +1K damage = ~2300 damage AoE. If you have no spell haste, that's 9200 raid DPS to EACH secondary target! The AoE damage cap limits you to ~55K (lol wut??) raid DPS assuming no haste or crit.

Anyone got stats on the new ranks of SoC in WotLK ? :D

[Lyonheart]

My conclusion from seeing 10 mans, and doing them with vyndree is:

Most viable tank - Paladin
HOWEVER, you ahve to wait until he is -really- overgeared. Otherwise threat/mitigation/mana issues will arise from tanking mobs that were intended to be cc'ed.

Second most viable - Druid
Less buttons, good threat and avoidance given on par gear with instance

Least viable - War
MICRO MANAGEMENT HELL - however can deal w many diff issues if you're pro. (like me ;) )

How over geared? For Kara, should the paly be hero badged out? If i remember right my guild was clearing kara before anyone was doing heroics. In fact i think Kara helped us do heroics more reliably lol.

[Stabface]

SoC is a threat magnet.. if you're going to cast it make sure that by the time you're done casting everything is dead. Otherwise the locks will die as soon as first SoCs go off... sad SM experience here... ;(

Ya, its not too bad, ran some quick #s and it needs about 700-800ish TPS from you tank to hold threat off the lock.

[Knytestorme]

Easiest way to test things is to test them :)

I think we have enough boxers of sufficient skill and group makeup on at least one server to test some theories so why not put some names/servers down and just hook up to try it.

Easiest would be trying out 2 Prot Pal + 8 Shaman since that would just be 2 people needed and run their groups the way they usually would. The issues I see with a makeup like this in Kara would only really be the silencing bosses, perhaps the mana wyrms and likely the shades and Moroes adds that are usually shackled and feared. I know Noids lurks here a bit so soon as I get my other 3 shaman leveled/geared I'll be quite happy to test this setup with him if he's willing.

WRT Kara I think that Netherspite will be almost impossible to solo (or even 2 man....3 would be doable though) and Nightbane will be an annoyance without enough tremor totems but everything else has been shown to be doable so it's not like it will ever be an issue, and yes once we're at 80 it should be trivial even with 1/2 the raid made up of level 70's you are gearing up.

I have a few worries about some of the new gimmicks that are coming into WotLK, such as the vehicle-based fighting or riding on dragons but they should still be able to be worked around given time, and the 4 horsemen event in Nax may be a blockage depending on how they change it for a 10 man (am thinking they'll have 2 to start with, so need 2 tanks, and then2 pop in once they die) BUT overall I still think it will be viable through there and could lead to 3 groups getting together to do the 25's as well...though hell, at 80 might be able to 10 man Mags, Grull, etc anyway.

[Suvega]

My conclusion from seeing 10 mans, and doing them with vyndree is:

Most viable tank - Paladin
HOWEVER, you ahve to wait until he is -really- overgeared. Otherwise threat/mitigation/mana issues will arise from tanking mobs that were intended to be cc'ed.

Second most viable - Druid
Less buttons, good threat and avoidance given on par gear with instance

Least viable - War
MICRO MANAGEMENT HELL - however can deal w many diff issues if you're pro. (like me ;) )

How over geared? For Kara, should the paly be hero badged out? If i remember right my guild was clearing kara before anyone was doing heroics. In fact i think Kara helped us do heroics more reliably lol.
A paladin tank willl need prob at least upper t4 -> t5 (better then all kara gear), to tank packs of mobs with no CC.

I would expect the same in WOTLK. Basically wheny our tank needs nothing from an instance, you can prob aoe tank groups that are intended to be CCEd.

[Lyonheart]

well screw Kara then.. in WotLK ill be able to CC stuff with my shamans.. so ill just focus my effort on getting 2 palis and 8 shaman to 80 ! LOL

[Bunny]

How about a pally tanking bosses? You stated that a pally needs to be overgeared to tank trashpacks but how much gear does he need to have to tank say attumen (as opposed to war and druid)?

Thanks for your answer

Bunny

[Los]

Pally itemisation sucks at the start of kara (with a few t4 items it starts to catch on, same as with badge gear) but they do not tank worse then warriors or druids. You will have to realise that if your dps outgears you a lot then you will always have a problem to keep agro, pally druid or warrior. Fact is that there is a lot more gear for warriors then pallys, i saw a lot of warriors with blues with way more hp then me. Does that make something less able to tank, nah not really, when your items catch on a bit you will tank just as good. ,

Atm im solo tanking kz with my pally, easy as pie only ppl that i really struggle with is the t6 geared that really put down the dps but thats a bit logical since they outgear me, simpel as that. But my point being, pallys are just as viable to tank as any other class, the missconception that pallys cant tank, or tank worse is imo from pre tbc when they indeed where not good tanks.

(my pally: http://armory.wow-europe.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Al%27Akir&n=Xlos (might catch me in some aoe tank gear because im pulling my mages through scarlet atm ;)) even in less then t4 i was tanking the trash waves in MH with ease)

[Tdog]

I wouldn't be suprised at all if they take out the stacking of Totem of Wrath in WotLK.It should be noted that not every totem is going to stack raidwide some will remain party buffs only

[Vyndree]

You will have to realise that if your dps outgears you a lot then you will always have a problem to keep agro, pally druid or warrior.

I'm late to this thread, but I will add that the s2 weapon from honor grinding (imo, do it as holy spec or at least prot with holy gear) will help you generate more threat -- particularly if you've got a couple sunwell-geared friends who are doing Kara with you.

I was finally able to break 400 holy damage with that weapon enchanted with +40 spelldamage. Previously I had been just slightly over 300 spelldamage. I had no problems tanking kara against Suvega's or my mages/shaman, however the moment I was grouped with some overgeared folks they'd whine and cry about ripping aggro off me and dying. For reference, my shammies have about 800 +damage.

The badge legs/boots are also GODLY since they can be purchased with badges. The legs are the best you can get pre-Brutallus, and the boots are t5 equivalent.

[Negativ1337]

Hey,

Go for shamans instead of mages :D Soon the totems will affect the whole raid: so for example: 8 shamans +1 prot paladin + 1 holy priest = 8x totem of wrath (1x = +3 hit/crit with spells - x8= 24% EXTRA CRIT AND HIT WITH SPELLS!)

With this i dont think you need that much of good gear, with so much chance to crit you will have major dps. Then the shamans can still chain heal for if your priest cant handle it ( because of aoe damage or whatever ).

Also on lvl 80 shamans get new talents :) and abillities. One i think will rock is a new sort of fire blast. You get a chance to crit extra on that target with that spell and that will stand for EVERY SHAMAN IN THE RAID/PARTY. And its a 60% chance to proc, and stacks 3 times. So also that will give major damage.

You can also go for 8 locks and 1 priest and 1 tank. I know oathbreaker is boxing that many characters. Maybe he can give you more information.

-Negativ1337

[daviddoran]

It's looking more and more like all previously party-only buffs will now be raid wide. Makes sense. When they first developed raids, they were 40 man deals, where you needed lots of coordination and class make up and dealing with party buffs was part of the design. Now that raids are designed for significantly less players, it seems right to make it more about getting 10 people together to do a job, rather than waste time figuring out how to spread out auras n such.

I think an ideal group would be paladin MT, Boomkin (panzerkin) OT, and 8 shaman... ok, maybe you could swap out one shaman for another healing class (I love holy pallys as a boxer, cause they really are just a one button mash job for 1 target healing)

[Nixi]

I think an ideal group would be paladin MT, Boomkin (panzerkin) OT, and 8 shaman... ok, maybe you could swap out one shaman for another healing class (I love holy pallys as a boxer, cause they really are just a one button mash job for 1 target healing)

I really have to agree with something this simple.

ATM I'm struggling with having 2 warlocks and a mage because they are 'pure dps' classes and I can't respec them for different roles. In ZAM I got my ass handed to be by the bear boss. So I need two tanks. Well I had enough forsight to make 2 paladins but if they are tanking then who is healing? Priest, check. Shamans.... ? Can shamans be setup to fire and forget like paladins? I have yet to try it. Right now i'm kind of hung up on equipment, I don't think any of my shamans have over 1000 healing so I'm just grinding out badges but I realy don't think I can put any shaman heal on my 'big button' and expect them to last the whole battle. Even downranking. From my past experience healing with my shaman (which was back in BWL) they are alot like priests. Very nice strong heals but you can't spam anything or your dry. I'm trying to gear up my warrior now to sub out a warlock. For a new 10 boxer I do not recommend a warrior yet, although I'm still playing with macros and I think a warrior can be a low maintanience single target tank. I suppose if the goal is raiding then lots of bosses are just single targets... I'm holding out hope for my warrior as a raid tank. :P

anyway, Paladins and Shamans. Maybe throw a priest in there. The number of each is still subject to some debate. At times I'd love to have 4 paladins and 6 shamans, others just 4 paladins 4 shamans 2 priests, etc etc etc.

Priest, Paladin, Shaman. That's my holy trinity of boxing classes atm.