Zaelar
06-05-2008, 08:33 PM
I'd like some help editing this post(for another forum+game). I have the original copy/pasted and would like some suggestions. I'm looking to remove sarcastic remarks and the like. I already have some ideas, but I'd like some more input.
For some background, the game we are talking about is melty blood(abbreviated mb) , and it is for a team tournament. Consider it like 3v3 arena, with the discussion being about allowing 2/3 of the same class on a team. Ciel is a character in the game; one of the best and hated by a lot of people(like rogues/druids), but she isn't so good that she can't be beaten. Akuma is a character in another game that is banned due to being way too good. Any time you see Kryo(person) or Hisui(character) mentioned it's about people that would be affected by the rule in a way that no one has complained about. The first sentence is technical stuff, comparable to properly using trinket and losing(line of sighting) in arena.(things that matter more against Ciel in general than against other characters)
The original thread: http://www.meltybread.com/forums/index.php?topic=489.0
The post is on page 10: http://www.meltybread.com/forums/index.php?topic=489.msg38297#msg38297
The post:
Just because you can't time meaties, bait stuff, recover at a reasonable frame, and/or figure out to press A instead of B against Ciel doesn't mean Ciel should be banned.(No, not 3x Ciel, just one.) Anyone who brings up 3x Ciel is, I'm assuming, also for the banning of Ciel in singles, since using Ciel more than half the time is clearly too good and needs to be banned(indirectly of course). Lets just force everyone to switch characters every game in singles so you can only use Ciel for one game each match. This promotes character variety too! If you don't have a good reason for the rule, (hint: you don't) then politely shut the fuck up and say you support the Hisui Battalion.(And tell me once you figure out how to do both.)
Quote from: Spirit Juice on Today at 05:54:32 AM
lolololz
I want to clarify that by competitive environment I mean playing a game in it's native form, without any modifications unless necessary(like banning akuma in st). You can take other forms of a game and play them just as competitively, but it isn't the same game, and usually isn't worth it if it isn't a big change.(and yes, banning akuma in st is a big change from everyone running akuma) And no, a tournament format isn't changing the game.(Although teams technically do it's more like a big format change for the purpose of this discussion.)
1) You asked why and I gave you the reason. So I'm not 100% sure on the "some idiot" remark, but it is a dumb rule. It specifically answers the question you ask, but holds no water in this debate? Well, technically the reason for it being discussed doesn't have any merit either way in whether or not it should be a rule, but then why ask the question? And how is it subjective? I'm objectively looking at it from the point of a competitive gamer/tournament runner. I'm not considering someone paying you to include the rule as a reason, or other such things. I wouldn't call someone an idiot for using it then, but the rule is still dumb.
2) It isn't subjective in any way. Name one fighting game where it shouldn't apply to in a competitive environment. Just because of your subjective view that you don't like the idea of 3x Ciel doesn't mean it should be a rule.
For the rest I was speaking in the hypothetical, IE it concerns every fighting game, past, present, and future. But since you want to specifically talk about MB, lets for a moment, since it is the worst example of a game to use the rule for the reason stated.
3a) How DOES it promote character variety? It forces(not promotes) at least 3 characters to be used. That isn't much variety considering, even in usa, we have most characters represented already. How many times have you seen more than two people in the top 8 of a mb tournament use the same character? This applies to almost any competitively played game right now that isn't a team game(mvc2, cvs2, kof). All of this happened without the rule. Now how is this going to improve this? All it does is force Kryo to play a secondary character or to team with different people.
Look at ST akuma again. If Akuma was allowed, everyone who was serious about the game would be playing him. Now that he's banned, we have several characters able to compete, even some low tier appearances. Now if you just had team tournaments...well thats covered below.
3b) It's anti-competitive because it forces you to pick worse characters for unnatural reasons. It's not that you can't be competitive with these restrictions, but it's no less dumb than saying ban a random character that you don't like.(oh and also banning ones that you don't mind like 3x hisui as well for no good reason) 3x Ciel(or any character) isn't the best team to go in with. This applies to any game without a broken as hell character. If you want to argue that it is the best, be sure to back it up with valid reasons. Having no counters would be one, but this applies the same to singles as well. It's also arguable whether or not it's true(That japanese matchup chart has disagreements here. There isn't one character where both Ciels and the other players thought it was bad for Ciel). Both general knowledge of mb and results show that she isn't broken or anywhere near unbeatable, so ST akuma level is out of the question.
Since we're talking specifically about MB for the moment, do any half way competent Ciel players plan to team up? Didn't think so...although now I half want to just to piss people off. How about any top tier characters? Closest you'll probably get is mech hisui.
So, anyone considering switching to Ciel [or another popular character(like we have any to begin with)] if you're allowed to team with other Ciel players? Didn't think so. Anyone considering switching characters at all? Oh hey Kryo, run that top tier secondary.
...so so far the rule caused an upper mid to switch to a top. Mission accomplished?
(But seriously, the 3 above paragraphs don't have anything to do with why the rule should(/n't) be there. If you seriously consider expected character selection a valid reason for the rule either way I am forced to question your intelligence.)
x1) Hypothetical game where theres only 2 playable characters(read: worth using) in teams of 3. Obviously the third loses for free and is just there to fill in the third slot. Think ST with Akuma, the non-Akumas would just be there to fill in the blanks while the Akumas actually play. Unless you read only that sentence by itself I don't see how it looks like I'm saying mb is like that though.
x2) I've said it before, if 3x a specific character is really a problem then that character needed to be banned in the first place. If she's such a problem then why aren't you petitioning that Ciel be banned in singles since anyone can use her 100% of the time? Banning teams doesn't add to strategy, it gives you less options. All you did was force people to go Ciel/Sion/Len instead of Ciel/Ciel/Ciel in your fantasy world where there's no reason to pick anything but the best characters on a team.
x3) So Arlieth knows what he's doing, but when it's something you don't like it's "lolololz"? It isn't a rule that I like, but theres nothing wrong with 2/3 in teams. Could get annoyingly long at times, but that is a personal preference thing. It only becomes "lolololz" when the time factor pushes a deadline, which is an unrelated issue.
...(pause)...
For those of you complaining about 3x ciel, why not just ban 3x ciel? Is 2x ciel too much? Then just ban 2x/3x ciel but allow 3x sion/len/akiha/mechsui, or are those too strong too? I know no one is afraid of 3x w.len, so why ban that? Where does the line get drawn? Also say stuff that doesn't also apply to singles unless you want it to apply there too.(Don't complain about cielx3 unless you seriously think ciel should be banned. Not just want her gone, but you seriously think that she is near ST akuma level broken.)
Character diversity got covered above. In case you missed it the results are about 18 against you, and 1 for you. I think it's actually a 0 for you, but I'll let you keep your point until another warc enters.
Standard.........stop sucking cock(I mean blindly x-copying shiny rules) and give a reason as to why you think it's a good rule.(remember: why you WANT the rule and why it's a GOOD rule can be different.)
Tiers got covered in there too. Ciel/Len/Sion is too broken now so we have to limit teams to no more than 1 top tier and 2 upper/top. Sorry kryo, you're going to have to switch characters again.
More strategy since you can't pick 3 of the same character. The only way it adds strategy is if 3x teams were overpowered to begin with, and the only way that is going to happen is with another Akuma reference. The only additional strategic decision that you might encounter is whether to play with better people using a secondary character because you play the same character, or to play with a worse player using only mains.
(And no, wall of text did not crit you, you got comboed by paragraphs.)
For some background, the game we are talking about is melty blood(abbreviated mb) , and it is for a team tournament. Consider it like 3v3 arena, with the discussion being about allowing 2/3 of the same class on a team. Ciel is a character in the game; one of the best and hated by a lot of people(like rogues/druids), but she isn't so good that she can't be beaten. Akuma is a character in another game that is banned due to being way too good. Any time you see Kryo(person) or Hisui(character) mentioned it's about people that would be affected by the rule in a way that no one has complained about. The first sentence is technical stuff, comparable to properly using trinket and losing(line of sighting) in arena.(things that matter more against Ciel in general than against other characters)
The original thread: http://www.meltybread.com/forums/index.php?topic=489.0
The post is on page 10: http://www.meltybread.com/forums/index.php?topic=489.msg38297#msg38297
The post:
Just because you can't time meaties, bait stuff, recover at a reasonable frame, and/or figure out to press A instead of B against Ciel doesn't mean Ciel should be banned.(No, not 3x Ciel, just one.) Anyone who brings up 3x Ciel is, I'm assuming, also for the banning of Ciel in singles, since using Ciel more than half the time is clearly too good and needs to be banned(indirectly of course). Lets just force everyone to switch characters every game in singles so you can only use Ciel for one game each match. This promotes character variety too! If you don't have a good reason for the rule, (hint: you don't) then politely shut the fuck up and say you support the Hisui Battalion.(And tell me once you figure out how to do both.)
Quote from: Spirit Juice on Today at 05:54:32 AM
lolololz
I want to clarify that by competitive environment I mean playing a game in it's native form, without any modifications unless necessary(like banning akuma in st). You can take other forms of a game and play them just as competitively, but it isn't the same game, and usually isn't worth it if it isn't a big change.(and yes, banning akuma in st is a big change from everyone running akuma) And no, a tournament format isn't changing the game.(Although teams technically do it's more like a big format change for the purpose of this discussion.)
1) You asked why and I gave you the reason. So I'm not 100% sure on the "some idiot" remark, but it is a dumb rule. It specifically answers the question you ask, but holds no water in this debate? Well, technically the reason for it being discussed doesn't have any merit either way in whether or not it should be a rule, but then why ask the question? And how is it subjective? I'm objectively looking at it from the point of a competitive gamer/tournament runner. I'm not considering someone paying you to include the rule as a reason, or other such things. I wouldn't call someone an idiot for using it then, but the rule is still dumb.
2) It isn't subjective in any way. Name one fighting game where it shouldn't apply to in a competitive environment. Just because of your subjective view that you don't like the idea of 3x Ciel doesn't mean it should be a rule.
For the rest I was speaking in the hypothetical, IE it concerns every fighting game, past, present, and future. But since you want to specifically talk about MB, lets for a moment, since it is the worst example of a game to use the rule for the reason stated.
3a) How DOES it promote character variety? It forces(not promotes) at least 3 characters to be used. That isn't much variety considering, even in usa, we have most characters represented already. How many times have you seen more than two people in the top 8 of a mb tournament use the same character? This applies to almost any competitively played game right now that isn't a team game(mvc2, cvs2, kof). All of this happened without the rule. Now how is this going to improve this? All it does is force Kryo to play a secondary character or to team with different people.
Look at ST akuma again. If Akuma was allowed, everyone who was serious about the game would be playing him. Now that he's banned, we have several characters able to compete, even some low tier appearances. Now if you just had team tournaments...well thats covered below.
3b) It's anti-competitive because it forces you to pick worse characters for unnatural reasons. It's not that you can't be competitive with these restrictions, but it's no less dumb than saying ban a random character that you don't like.(oh and also banning ones that you don't mind like 3x hisui as well for no good reason) 3x Ciel(or any character) isn't the best team to go in with. This applies to any game without a broken as hell character. If you want to argue that it is the best, be sure to back it up with valid reasons. Having no counters would be one, but this applies the same to singles as well. It's also arguable whether or not it's true(That japanese matchup chart has disagreements here. There isn't one character where both Ciels and the other players thought it was bad for Ciel). Both general knowledge of mb and results show that she isn't broken or anywhere near unbeatable, so ST akuma level is out of the question.
Since we're talking specifically about MB for the moment, do any half way competent Ciel players plan to team up? Didn't think so...although now I half want to just to piss people off. How about any top tier characters? Closest you'll probably get is mech hisui.
So, anyone considering switching to Ciel [or another popular character(like we have any to begin with)] if you're allowed to team with other Ciel players? Didn't think so. Anyone considering switching characters at all? Oh hey Kryo, run that top tier secondary.
...so so far the rule caused an upper mid to switch to a top. Mission accomplished?
(But seriously, the 3 above paragraphs don't have anything to do with why the rule should(/n't) be there. If you seriously consider expected character selection a valid reason for the rule either way I am forced to question your intelligence.)
x1) Hypothetical game where theres only 2 playable characters(read: worth using) in teams of 3. Obviously the third loses for free and is just there to fill in the third slot. Think ST with Akuma, the non-Akumas would just be there to fill in the blanks while the Akumas actually play. Unless you read only that sentence by itself I don't see how it looks like I'm saying mb is like that though.
x2) I've said it before, if 3x a specific character is really a problem then that character needed to be banned in the first place. If she's such a problem then why aren't you petitioning that Ciel be banned in singles since anyone can use her 100% of the time? Banning teams doesn't add to strategy, it gives you less options. All you did was force people to go Ciel/Sion/Len instead of Ciel/Ciel/Ciel in your fantasy world where there's no reason to pick anything but the best characters on a team.
x3) So Arlieth knows what he's doing, but when it's something you don't like it's "lolololz"? It isn't a rule that I like, but theres nothing wrong with 2/3 in teams. Could get annoyingly long at times, but that is a personal preference thing. It only becomes "lolololz" when the time factor pushes a deadline, which is an unrelated issue.
...(pause)...
For those of you complaining about 3x ciel, why not just ban 3x ciel? Is 2x ciel too much? Then just ban 2x/3x ciel but allow 3x sion/len/akiha/mechsui, or are those too strong too? I know no one is afraid of 3x w.len, so why ban that? Where does the line get drawn? Also say stuff that doesn't also apply to singles unless you want it to apply there too.(Don't complain about cielx3 unless you seriously think ciel should be banned. Not just want her gone, but you seriously think that she is near ST akuma level broken.)
Character diversity got covered above. In case you missed it the results are about 18 against you, and 1 for you. I think it's actually a 0 for you, but I'll let you keep your point until another warc enters.
Standard.........stop sucking cock(I mean blindly x-copying shiny rules) and give a reason as to why you think it's a good rule.(remember: why you WANT the rule and why it's a GOOD rule can be different.)
Tiers got covered in there too. Ciel/Len/Sion is too broken now so we have to limit teams to no more than 1 top tier and 2 upper/top. Sorry kryo, you're going to have to switch characters again.
More strategy since you can't pick 3 of the same character. The only way it adds strategy is if 3x teams were overpowered to begin with, and the only way that is going to happen is with another Akuma reference. The only additional strategic decision that you might encounter is whether to play with better people using a secondary character because you play the same character, or to play with a worse player using only mains.
(And no, wall of text did not crit you, you got comboed by paragraphs.)