Advantage of going Hardware over Software? [Archive]

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BGuru

06-05-2008, 03:35 PM

Are there advantages in hardware multiboxing over using the software to multibox?
I just bought 3 new computers and run 1 account on 1 computer and 2 accounts on 2 separate computers.
I use Keyclone and Multiplicity to play and everything seems to work ok now.
Should I get the hardware to multibox?
I want to do instances and a little PvP.

Thanks,

Noxxy

06-05-2008, 06:45 PM

Future games - Full Hardware will work Period. End of story.
Redundancy - If your software boxing, and a computer crashes, you lose all or a major part of your team. Hardware - you just lose that one character.

Totally agree with Furs - these are the two exact reasons I am going the hardware route

/Redundancy
I know, from experience with WoW add-ons, that a simple patch can be really inconvenient until the author of the add-on updates it - software definately falls into this category

/Future Games
Also, respectfully, WoW isn't going to keep me going forever - I am from old sk00l DAoC (actually old sk00l UO tbh) and have started gearing for a return (multi-box style ;p ) - on that point, I also have accnts in EQ2 which I used to 'ironman box' - have started to collect a few more boxsets to give me the 6 required (2 more to go!)...

With the hardware I have, it's really as simple as starting up the new mmporg and working out a few /follow and /formation macro type stuff - if I went software, there'd always be the doubt in my mind (in games other than WoW) if it was 'legal' AND if the software would work at all with the new game (plus all the mucking around getting it to work)

Honestly - if the game has a /follow command - vetra can do it - with software /shrug

Example:
Warhammer is coming out the end (?) of this year

If it has /follow and you have a vetra, you can be MBoxing from day one...whether or not that is an advantage will have to be seen but I think you get my point

leukos

06-05-2008, 07:31 PM

While I was talking to a coworker about multiboxing he said something along these lines when I told him he could multibox using software and on one computer.

"When I show people how I play Warcraft I want them to go, 'Wow!'"

I think he had some vision in his head of a pile of computers and monitors resembling some type of Network Operations Center or NASA Command Center.

Personally, I think the hardware approach is a great attempt to fight the IKEA Nesting Instinct. What could be more masculine then a large wall of monitors and computers to keep you company late into the night. You can always tell yourself, "At least I have that five man instance group taken care of."

Big-endians for multiboxing!

Noxxy

06-05-2008, 08:31 PM

Personally, I think the hardware approach is a great attempt to fight the IKEA Nesting Instinct. What could be more masculine then a large wall of monitors and computers to keep you company late into the night. You can always tell yourself, "At least I have that five man instance group taken care of."

I am positive there is a direct correlation between the number of pcs I have and the size of my e-peen!!

keyclone

06-09-2008, 07:16 PM

actually, if they go against multi-boxing, hardware or software won't matter.. it's the style of play they would be banning, not how you did it
(and yes, they can easily pick out any multi-boxer.. hardware or software... all on server side)

kllrwlf

06-09-2008, 07:39 PM

With Hardware... you can keep your room pretty warm... or hot, depending on the season.

Ishar

06-09-2008, 09:43 PM

The biggest annoyance about hardware is cooling. I live in a hot, humid place, and bake. I turn off all the machines during the day, and still bake. hehe. Its pretty bad.

That said, wouldn't trade my 6 machines for anything. The fact that I never have to replace my vetra (barring a fire) is big plus too. theres a certain e-peen aspect, as my desk looks vaguely reminiscent of small server room.... But really nice that I can switch games at whim, and (probably) have everything work out. (Which I do. for instance, Keyclone doesnt work in EQ1, and only works in eq2 if you break the TOS with another program, and who knows about other games.) Not to mention the hardware requirements to get my 'clones' up to par for a new game is probably cheaper than purchasing a single monster machine that can run all 5. you do pay for it a bit tho because your main machine (at least mine) ends up being less cutting edge. Haven't gotten an upgrade for it in 2 years now....

love my vetra. loves. (sorry, still a new vetra owner.../drools quietly and pets his vetras)

Xzin

06-09-2008, 11:01 PM

Did somebody say Vetras?

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x45/Xzin-WoW/Vetras.jpg

WTB bulk discount.....

Noxxy

06-10-2008, 12:24 AM

Hey Xzin, how many accnts can you handle with that setup?

I see 1 x 8port + 7 x 4port = 36ports, less the daisy-chain, say 8ports - leaves you with 28 drones?!?!?!?

...and I have to ask - why so many 4ports Vs 8ports? I remember the 2 x 4port from your original wiki writeup, but the rest? - is it just a convience thing where it is easier to move a 4port around next to your pcs?

Just a thought too, do you feel 1 person is capable of driving a huge drone army by themself[sucessfully]? I just keep thinking of Ony, et al. Then again, I suppose I am thinking the normal 'raid' mentality with each group being it's own unit, whereas the drone army is more full-on zerg [28 x chain lightening anyone?]. With an army of that uncontrollable? size, do you feel offering drones for 'sacrifice' to adds would be a valid tactic in a raid boss type situation?

Nox

Xzin

06-10-2008, 12:43 AM

It is for 10 boxing. 2 teams of 5. I got the 4 ports because they didn't offer 8 ports at the time.

Ishar

06-10-2008, 02:02 AM

Hmm.

I have 2 vetra. ! 8port multiplier, and 1 8 port Km. So, technically, i can say 'vetras'. but after that picture, maybe no one but Xzin should really say 'vetras' LOL.

jk

Ishar

entoptic

06-10-2008, 04:47 PM

GO SOFTWARE OVER HARDWARE!

Its simple. With software you have just one box to worry about and there is 1 bottleneck.

With hardware you introduce multiple bottlenecks that are only fixed by updating your hardware. Imo hardware over software is a lose lose as your upgrades are costly, you waste MAD amounts of power, your room heats up, troubleshooting sucks etc etc....

Not to mention the stress you put on a consumer network.

Ishar

06-10-2008, 06:12 PM

Computers are dirt cheap if you build your own and only want something capable of running wow. Its simple really...

for a 5 in 1 machine, you pretty much have to go with cutting edge hardware, getting the newest and most expensive parts.

for 1 instance of a game per machine, you can go with something much closer to the min specs, and get really cheap, 2-3 year behind the curve hardware.

I actually did both, though not for wow. But I have a single comp than can, well, rather, could before i cannibalized it, easily handle 5 or 6 EQ instances. I spent more for its 3d cards and processor than I spent for my 3 clones. Are you really saving any money?

The only really expensive part of the hardware is the Vetras/Xkeys if you decide to go full hardware. It worked out being a third of the total cost for me.

Vyndree

06-10-2008, 11:33 PM

With hardware boxing, you never have to worry about blizzard banning you as a "false positive" -- and yes, it's happened before.

Multiboxers using software solutions have gotten mistakenly banned (and rightly un-banned)
Linux users utilizing windows emulators (i.e. Wine) to play WoW have gotten mistakenly banned (and rightly un-banned)

Hardware boxers have nothing "funky" on the boxes that Warden could potentially sniff out. There's still the chance that a not-so-knowledgable GM bans you because they don't know their own policies, but that's pretty slim in comparison to their automatic processes like their mass botter banwave uses and their recent wintrader banwave automation.

Knytestorme

06-11-2008, 01:21 AM

Multiboxers using hardware solutions have gotten mistakenly banned (and rightly un-banned)
Am guessing you meant software solutions here Vyn?

Vyndree

06-11-2008, 01:52 AM

Multiboxers using hardware solutions have gotten mistakenly banned (and rightly un-banned)
Am guessing you meant software solutions here Vyn?

>.>

<.<

Fixt.

Knytestorme

06-11-2008, 02:01 AM

Weird, I can't delete my post now...only wanted to put it there till you seen it

Nisch

06-11-2008, 10:55 AM

I went the hardware route.

Disadvantage........heat and cost.

Advantage......compatibility with games......reliability.......and your desk looks insane.

http://www.danhanisch.com/daoc/nischcomp-0424.jpg

Ishar

06-11-2008, 03:05 PM

@Fursphere ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=User&userID=146')

I so totally read that thread a long time ago, and utterly forgot about wireless kbds. oh well. point taken. But, I hate wireless with a passion, so for me, their not really an option hehehe=0. Tho i might bite the bullet and use it for mouse broadcasting. /grumbles.

Hmm. I wonder if its cheaper to build 4 extra machines that can run wow, or rebuild your main PC into a monster PC that can run 5 instances comfortably. hmm. my 3 clone machines are cheaper than my main machine(even if i had built a 4th), but I might have went overkill on the main machine, or underkill on the clones... The main pc does more than run the head of my wow army. and predates my decision to go full hardware. /shrug.

entoptic

06-12-2008, 08:13 PM

GO SOFTWARE OVER HARDWARE!

Its simple. With software you have just one box to worry about and there is 1 bottleneck.

SEMI-TRUE.

You overload 1 PC instead of balacing the load between 5. Wait a minute. Thats a benefit? ?(

:!: My PC is not overloaded being a quad core. When I look at the stats its low. Balancing the load over more computers does indeed slow things down for many reason and since this is not a huge corporate network my one computer with 4 processors (load balancing) is just fine. One computer is one computer, add more and it is like trying to talk in a crowded room. :!:

With hardware you introduce multiple bottlenecks that are only fixed by updating your hardware. Imo hardware over software is a lose lose as your upgrades are costly, you waste MAD amounts of power, your room heats up, troubleshooting sucks etc etc....

FALSE.
You can build a hardware based system for a lot less than a quad core PC thats capable of running 5 instances of WoW.
See: Full Hardware Ghetto Five-Boxing - A how-to guide. ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=7169')

As far as power goes - TURN THE SHIT OFF WHEN YOU AREN'T USING IT. Power problem = solved

Troubleshooting? If you're using this as an argument tool, you probably shouldn't be multiboxing. ;)

:!: My computer cost me about 1000.00 dollars and is fine. I don't pay for additional power since its on one machine and there is not heat issue, when the computer is on it is not sucking down up to 3 times the amount of a hairdryer like some people's systems. I don't know about you all but I like to save money which is why I do shut my system down when not in use.

Buying a Ghetto systems screws you in the end. your north bridge, south bridge, memory, cpu, video card.... EVERYTHING is outdated and SLOW. These are some of the bottle necks. Not to mention not using a gig nic card on the network with a non gig switch/router WILL be SLOWER.

Troubleshooting is a big issue. Do you want to game or figure out IPs or why one monitor is not in the right resolution.... There is ALWAYS troubleshooting and you want to make that as easy as possible.

In the long run you pay WAY more for hardware and you are not being cost effective as you are getting screwed on your ROI. :!:

Not to mention the stress you put on a consumer network.

FALSE.
5 WoW clients is 5 WoW clients - doesn't matter if its one PC or multiples. Its the same amount of network traffic. Nice try though.

:!: You are wrong here. 5 wow clients is not 5 wow clients if they are laid over a network with hubs and switches each firing shots off of info to each computer. I design networks for a living and having multiple computers over a network is a very bad thing. Your routers since most of us here use consumer routers will die faster and drop packets. We are looking for clean lines with speed right? Network traffic is indeed network traffic but when it comes from multiple sources then it is not longer the same thing. :!:

:thumbsup: You have some great comments here but I think you are alittle misguided. :thumbsup:

Freddie

06-13-2008, 04:53 PM

If I run one wow client I get like a 40ms - 80ms ping. If I run seven WoW clients, its like 100ms - 120ms ping on all machines.
If you increase the number of WoW's on a single machine and the ping time suddenly increases, it's probably because the Nagle algorithm is kicking in more often, not because of bandwidth. Chazz and I just discovered that in the second half of this thread:

Hardware question! ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=8161&pageNo=1')

He managed to eliminate the ping time increase by turning off Nagle.

You are wrong here. 5 wow clients is not 5 wow clients if they are laid over a network with hubs and switches each firing shots off of info to each computer. I design networks for a living and having multiple computers over a network is a very bad thing. Your routers since most of us here use consumer routers will die faster and drop packets. We are looking for clean lines with speed right? Network traffic is indeed network traffic but when it comes from multiple sources then it is not longer the same thing.
I don't know who said this (I can't follow the quotes), and I'm not sure what this refers to, but I just want to say that if you run multiple WoW's on separate PC's and control them with software, the increase in traffic (compared to running them on the same PC) is microscopic. You get about 3/4 millisecond latency with each command but that's just the network speed, it's not because anything is burdened. The number of bytes sent by the key broadcaster is so uttterly tiny compared to the number of bytes sent by your computers in normal Internet use, it's hard for me to believe it has any effect on anything.

Ughmahedhurtz

06-13-2008, 05:06 PM

Redundancy - If your software boxing, and a computer crashes, you lose all or a major part of your team. Hardware - you just lose that one character. This isn't as simple as you make it out to be. My toons are on different PCs, so if one crashes, I just lose that one toon, just like hardware. The one exception is that if my main PC crashes, they all go down. On the other hand, I can count the number of Windows crashes I've had in the past couple of years on one finger. And aside from me doing things I really shouldn't be doing, Octopus has _never_ crashed on me or bugged out in the middle of a play session.

I guess, like everything else, it is all highly dependent on your particular setup. ;)

Ughmahedhurtz

06-13-2008, 05:46 PM

<robot>I am...unique.</robot>

Simulacra

06-14-2008, 06:19 PM

I SW box so apologies if I'm talking out of my @rse:
There are advantages to gameplay with hardware boxing (defining HW as 1 instance per machine)- With HW boxing you can use targeted AoE like Flamestrike or Blizzard using synced mouse cursors, whereas in SW (multi instances on 1 machine) that's pretty much impossible as you only have 1 cursor.

Freddie

06-14-2008, 06:37 PM

Simulacra

06-17-2008, 03:39 AM

With HW boxing you can use targeted AoE like Flamestrike or Blizzard using synced mouse cursors, whereas in SW (multi instances on 1 machine) that's pretty much impossible as you only have 1 cursor.
HotkeyNet does this in software. I don't know about other programs. In some ways software is better than hardware for mouse clicks because the target windows can be different sizes, they can be covered, etc. On the other hand software has a slight delay (6 - 30 ms between windows) and some people find it difficult to set it up so it works well.

Here's a screenshot of software AOE using broadcast mouse clicks:

Software AOE ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=8118')So there you go - thanks for that, so there's a hardware and a software solution for targeted aoe when using 1 instance per machine and no solution for multiple instances on 1 machine so: if targeted aoe is your thing then go 1 instance per machine

Mendicant

06-20-2008, 08:17 AM

I know this may not be the case for most MBers, but I was able to run 5 instances of WoW on my computer with no upgrades on my existing system. I don't have a quad-core.

I have:
AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 4400+
2gb ram
ATI Radeon X800 XL
20" widescreen lcd
15" lcd

So essentially the cost for me to start MBing was: keyclone $20, and some copies of WoW. Now if I had wanted to buy a computer for each instance I could easily see me spending $150-200 and up per system (for crappy ones at that, that can't run much beyond WoW), and that's not including the cost of acquiring a monitor for each (though I will admit it would look cool). And still that doesn't take into account getting the hardware for keyboard input cloning, etc.

The only upgrade I would consider getting for my current system is more ram, as shatt is laggy as all hell with my current setup. So maybe I will spend $80 on that.

Of course this all depends on your current system specs. Definitely try out multi-instancing before going hardware.

Here I'll make a list:

Hardware Advantages:
Looks cool
If they ban keyclone you won't be affected
(maybe) better performance in some situations
A monitor for each instance
targeted aoe spells?

Hardware Disadvantages:
Depending on your current system, vastly more expensive
Heat output
Technical issues may be more complicated to solve
If they ban multiboxing overall then you're screwed.

Vyndree

06-20-2008, 05:11 PM

Hardware Advantages:
Looks cool
If they ban keyclone you won't be affected
(maybe) better performance in some situations
A monitor for each instance
targeted aoe spells?

Hardware Disadvantages:
Depending on your current system, vastly more expensive
Heat output
Technical issues may be more complicated to solve
If they ban multiboxing overall then you're screwed.

You forgot a hardware benefit:
Works with ALL games.

New MMO you want to play? You know, before it even comes out, that if the game is multibox-able, you can play it.

Software? It might work, might not. It needs to be updated by the software developer. And depending on whether you have a paid or free version, recently updated or rarely updated -- who KNOWS when or if that shiny new game will be supported.

Suvega and I have 10 computers (and sometimes our 2 laptops) on the same cable internet connection. The only time we see lag is when I'm trying to upload a video. ;) The network is not your bottleneck (and yes, we both use Synergy/Multibox for mouse movement to other screens -- it's useful even with hardware mice and vetras).

It should be noted that there ARE software advantages. For example, keyclone's "round robin" can be emulated using a staggered /castsequence, but if one of your characters is CC'ed or stunned when you press the key it will mess up your rotation. PiP swap is pretty cool too. Both sides have their advantages and disadvantages -- so it pretty much leaves it to personal preference.

Vyndree

06-20-2008, 06:00 PM

Hardware Disadvantages:
Depending on your current system, vastly more expensive

Wrong!!!!!!!!!!

Go find my ghetto multiboxing hardware rig thread.

He did say "depending". ;)

leukos

06-20-2008, 06:21 PM

Depending on where you live you may find that your local college or other state agency holds auctions to get rid of computers. Sometimes it is all trash, sometimes it is a department getting rid of a lab full of computers that are a year old because they got a grant or found out they had 4 hours to spend $30,000.

That begin said, sell the house, sell the car, sell the kids. Multiboxing still takes money.

entoptic

06-20-2008, 06:54 PM

I don't know who said this (I can't follow the quotes), and I'm not sure what this refers to, but I just want to say that if you run multiple WoW's on separate PC's and control them with software, the increase in traffic (compared to running them on the same PC) is microscopic. You get about 3/4 millisecond latency with each command but that's just the network speed, it's not because anything is burdened. The number of bytes sent by the key broadcaster is so uttterly tiny compared to the number of bytes sent by your computers in normal Internet use, it's hard for me to believe it has any effect on anything.Actually it can be higher then you think as a router or switch will have to refire packets that it loses and then wait to fire off other packets.

Honestly the network imo is not the main issue, it's the hardware on the machines.

Come on guys, out dated hardware is outdated for a reason.

Anyone that says hardware is faster and is not using up to date hardware is full of it. End of story!

You can't tell me that your old hardware is better at computing X Y Z then a new computer running the same software even if it is 5 boxing on a quad core.

Simple break down for the non tech folks.

Hardware has many bottlenecks that slow systems down and usually everything else on the computer must be dumbed down to that speed or it will not work.

Example
Try putting 2 memory sticks in a PC. Lets say one is weaker then the other (older and just used) What do you think happens? The newer stick dumbs itself down to compensate for the older stick.

Example 2
your computer has a front bus speed of 400mhz. Your brand new memory that is top of the line at 800mzh will not work at the correct speed if the front bus can't keep up with it. The memory will dumb itself down again.

There are many many examples of this on computer, front bus, memory, cpu, north bridge, south bridge, how much juice your cpu can handle etc etc....

Now if there was a way to load balance wow over computers that would be sick but running 1 instance over multiple computers is not load balancing as wow was not designed to load balance.

Hardware is VERY limited to its current state as with software this is just not true. Software can be run on most anything as long as the correct drivers, dll files etc etc are there.

Wow will run faster on a newer computer period. You can argue all you want to about it but software is superior on many lvls then hardware.

Why do you think so many companies are going to virtual machines over having server farms? Price? Maintance? Speed? Reliability? Network downtime being cut in half? All those things are some of the many reasons companies all around the world are starting to use software over hardware.

There is one downside though to using 1 computer with a dope hardware setup. If it crashes then everything crashes, that is not good when you are neck deep in ally blood!

leukos

06-20-2008, 07:09 PM

entoptic

06-20-2008, 07:52 PM

There is one downside though to using 1 computer with a dope hardware setup. If it crashes then everything crashes, that is not good when you are neck deep in ally blood!

It is also worth pointing out that with more hardware you are increasing the probability of having a failure.

This is usually where the virtual/physical argument degrades, then someone points out that if the service level agreement (SLA) of a service requires a very high uptime with very little downtime it needs to be a clustered/mirrored/load balanced solution (depending on SLA requirements).

Although, I think mirroring the memory of my desktops to another box over Infiniband on the off chance they die so I can pick up exactly where I left off is a little too much.Yoinks he said SLA. Someone knows what they are talking about.

Hey guys I am sorry if I come off rough. I am not trying to be at all. I love you all and love what this community stands for.

I deal with retarded CEOs, CFOs, and all the like inbetween all day long and I did not put my calm down ballcap on my head or smoke one before posting.

I weally do lub you all!

Freddie

06-20-2008, 08:43 PM