Are we too harsh?

[Knytestorme]

I've noticed that there has been a rash of people posting recently that make 1 or 2 posts and then are never heard from again, and I'm wondering if we are being too harsh with them.

Typically they start off one of two ways, either stating they have read the stickies and then asking questions that are answered by them or starting off showing no clue and no intention of wanting to learn past being spoonfed and we (using that term a generic for the community, myself included) will typically give them a "read the stickies, read the wiki" comment after which they are never heard from again. Now is this because the comments are seemingly unfriendly, or because they can't be bothered actually doing the work? (well I think we all know the answer there)

I got to thinking about it, and came up with the following...in one of the beginner stickies have a comment like "Now, when you post asking for help use the phrase purple bubblegum heart and people will know you have read this"...it's weird enough no-one would randomly add it to their posts, and probably easily skipped over if you aren't paying attention and trying to learn from the stickies but would allow people to know that the person using it has taken the time to read and try to learn and will likely be worth spending some of our time to help.

I think all of us here are willing to help as much as possible when someone shows a willingness to help themselves first, so why don't we give us and them a way to show who they are rather than let someone that could be an asset to the community get swept away in the flood of leeches that get ignored?

[Khazrael]

I think you hit the nail on the head with the types of posters that get scared off. While some of the stickies could probably be cleaned up/updated, and I certainly don't speak for the community as a whole, as far as I'm concerned if you can't put forth the effort to do some digging and play around with it some yourself, multiboxing might not be for you. I'm plenty willing to help, I've made plenty of constructive posts and also am pretty regular in the IRC and help people that join in there, but at some point if you can't help yourself, others can't really help you either.

[geoffdavison]

I don't think that people are being harsh but more that they are tired of people popping up with the same questions and not putting forth any effort.

Even though i've only been here a few months it does get annoying when you see the 1-2 posters that ask the same questions... alot of times they seem to be on the younger side.. i'm basing that on the lack of communication skills... not that gamer geeks are the best at it sometimes.. but hey most of us can spell and use periods completely inappropriately................................... ............

[Kaynin]

Well, if anything. Even though pretty much all the information any multiboxer needs is already on the forum. It did look like a maze to me when I came here originally. :P

That said, perhaps it's better to link people to the stickies they should read when asking them. Instead of just saying 'go read the stickies'. Besides, some people might be at work like myself, not really having the time to go through all stickies trying to look for some information. ^^

Still, I haven't seen much harshness except to people 'breaking the rules' here and there. And for as long as I've been here. (What, like, 2 months? >.<) This community has been one of the nicer, more mature communities I've been a part off. Which is a rare oddity these days!

[Knytestorme]

Yeah, I guess when I say harsh I should say terse or curt. I don't think anyone has outright flamed a person for their posts (except the Gambler that got banned for promoting private servers) but some of us (again, myself included) are very curt with people, and while I don't mind it when it's deserved I was trying to think of ways to make sure people that deserve some time and effort in response to the time and effort they have put in, get it.

And yes, holy bad grammar there batman. :)

[Khazrael]

As far as better ways to respond, I'd have to completely agree with Kaynin about linking the stickies you want them to read, rather then just saying go read the stickies. I try to do this myself whenever I have the time to do so. Even if it's just a thread thats helped me personally understand something in the past, just to give them something to look at rather then a general statement that may seem too overwhelming to them. (Stickies? Zomg theres dozens of them, which one!)

[spannah]

When folks signup they get an e-mail for the next step. Instead of providing a link in order to complete the signup maybe instructions should be given such as go to dual-boxing.com, click on this link then on that link, then enter this code. Before providing instructions, give a generic well written paragraph about multi-boxing - something along the lines:

"Multi-boxing is not for everyone, it takes time to setup your environment, it will cost money, and it will require you to do some reading on your own so you understand how it works and how to set things up. If you don't want to bother with the technicalities, then no one else is going to do it for you. Yes it does help if your are computer literate or at least if you are willing to learn the basics on your own."

There will still be peeps who won't bother to read or pay attention to that, but at least it is a warning of things to come :D

[Kaynin]

Ain't that just what we try to avoid though, Spannah? xP

[Kaynin]

How many people go "overboard" helping people in game that inquire about multiboxing? Giving them all the details, methods, etc.

I know I do. And when I feel they are truly interested, I direct them here to the forums. I sort of "feel them out" first, to try and stem off the total noobs who still have their parents changing their diapers.
Then I come here, and its the same question every day - that the answer is SUPER easy to find. Or questions that are so subjective that one cannot give an honest answer because there are too many variables? (omg what class should I choose?!)

Honestly? With the huge influx of new people lately, and all the bad PR we get, screw them. The less people doing this the better. All this community needs is some shit stained individual that likes to post on the general forums start multiboxing and giving us all a bad name.

I'm help the people who show they are worth helping. The total jack holes? learn2wiki

I do sometimes when I'm not busy, other times I tell them the 'basics'. (As in. "One keyboard, multiple accounts. Basicly!") And tell them to look for it on the internet. Official forums/google/dual-boxing.com :p

[Doubleo7]

It's even easier to just not respond to a post that irritates you. If they don't get any responses maybe they will be motivated to go back and read the stickies again or make their questions more specific.

[Diamndzngunz]

I don't think that people are being harsh but more that they are tired of people popping up with the same questions and not putting forth any effort.

BINGO

[leukos]

I'll throw in my two cents:

- Maybe getting rid of the "I want to 5 box on one computer, what software will easily allow me to do that - oh, and I can't spend money on KeyClone" people is a good thing.

- The community could pair new multiboxers with a willing and more experienced mentor. No, I am not volunteering myself - the liability issues with this idea are to great.
- The community could agree that the "New Multiboxer" forums are a safe haven for stupid questions. Anyone that answers a question must do so directly and include a precise answer to the person's question (and no more). This could already be in place, I just haven't read the stickys recently (queue the Homer Simpson D'oh!). Maybe a warning notice on safe haven forums would be enough. (I'm guilty of ignoring this one).
- Get more of the community knowledge into wiki form, there is already a surprisingly large amount there for such a new resource.
- Finagle/beg/borrow steal people into Subject Matter Expert roles for certain aspects of Multiboxing (Warcraft and other games as they come out). Make them keep their Wiki sections up to date. This already appears to be happening.
- Could we somehow get the paperclip to pop up on people's computer and give them a long winded tour of the Wiki and Stickys before letting them in? Could we make them do it five times?

- I still don't get the Prepaid card thing.

[Liquefied]

I feel that more of them are like me, I didn't have the money, the computer(s), or the time.

Once they realize what it takes to box they give up because of one of those things.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

I don't really think we're too harsh. This is no different than your teenage kids coming to ask you how to use a scroll saw. Sure, you can show them how, but they'll be quickly frustrated with the subtle differences and probably give it up anyway. If they do some research first, they'll understand what to expect and will pick it up on their own for the most part.

[Kaynin]

I'll throw in my two cents:

- Maybe getting rid of the "I want to 5 box on one computer, what software will easily allow me to do that - oh, and I can't spend money on KeyClone" people is a good thing.

Though hard to imagine people being able to pay for 5 accounts but not the one payment for keyclone, it is still in everyones right to use freeware options as well. :p And I don't see any wrong in people like this, really. A basic answer like "Autohotkey, and several other programs." would basicly do the trick. It's up to them to check it out then. xP

Either way, I don't really think this is such a big deal. *shrug*

[Old Dirty Bathtub]

Honestly, I think the type of people who are scared off by a curt response probably wouldn't have lasted long as boxers anyhow. Boxing isn't like pledging to support public radio or promising vote for the Green party. If you don't have the determination to do independent research and experiment on your own, you are never going to get too far as a multiboxer.

Some of the dilettantes may get scared off, but this is only speeding the inevitable.

(Anyhow, y'all are actually really nice.)

[spannah]

Ain't that just what we try to avoid though, Spannah? xP

In a way, but I think most people who have been around for a while know what it takes to multibox. Maybe I sound like an "elitist jerk" but it ain't like they can call up Blizzard and say "hey can you set me up with multi-boxing?". Anyone that is genuinely interested will dedicate the time/resources. Like Liquefied did ...


I feel that more of them are like me, I didn't have the money, the computer(s), or the time.

Once they realize what it takes to box they give up because of one of those things.

The warning is just sort of saying, "hey, this isn't as easy as it seems" ;)

For the little replies I do make, I am likely to include a link to the stickies or somewhere else with additional information.

[Tasty]

Yes you are all way too harsh. You were all so mean to me thats why I gave up trying to box before I even started. Or were you? Guess we'll never know :D

[Maz]

I think the tone is just fine. You can spot the fuckwits a mile off.

If people descibe in some detail the specific problem they're having, describe what it is they've done to try and solve it, and ask specific questions that they need answers to in order to progress then you know you're not wasting your time.

Of course I'm quite happy to respond to "Keyclone's sending two copies of every character to my alts" with "You have two copies of Keyclone running numb-nuts" because we've all done it and it takes no time at all to type. But I'm disinclined to write chapter and verse about how to get things set up when others have bent over backwards to put that information in the wiki and elsewhere.

[Moxy]

My thought would be to have something on the portal page- a brief explanation for those who don't know- and a warning that getting into multiboxing is time consuming, technically detailed, costly, and just plain sucks. >)

Should probably warn them that I'm an ass as well...

[Desolate]

i must admit i was a little sceptical about posting on the forums, even reading them for a month before i decided to post for help, But when i did you guys were more than accomidating and helpfull. Now ive got the hang of my 2 boxing and im enjoying every minuite of it im starting to think about 5 boxing were im sure i will be posting for more help. Hopefully you gusy will be just as good then but most of what you need to start is in the wiki Advanced macros and things arent tho and seem to be constantly posted on or requested. Maybe there should be some updates to the wiki with that sort of information. But apart from that there is enuff information here to get you to 70 with ease and actually start the content that you will find challanging.

[majoho]

I would have to say yes.

I just decided not to ask about anything again.

btw. this was the thread I made combo for two accounts ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=4812&highlight')=

Some people just post to be rude, if they are sick of people asking "stupid" questions they can just ignore it they don't have to post in the thread, but since they are assholes they insist on doing so.

Fursphere who posted in this thread is an excelent example.

[Maz]

Some people just post to be rude, if they are sick of people asking "stupid" questions they can just ignore it they don't have to post in the thread, but since they are assholes they insist on doing so.
Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

[Kaynin]

Some people just post to be rude, if they are sick of people asking "stupid" questions they can just ignore it they don't have to post in the thread, but since they are assholes they insist on doing so.
Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

Although the irony is amusing, I didn't quite see any offensive posts made by Majoho personally, and the thread he linked to was basicly asking for input what people thought would be best. With perhaps some arguements to help him decide what to do.

I think in this case people have been too harsh. :P

[Eteocles]

Skipped page2, one phrase sums it up:

Give a man fish, or give a man a fire, and he'll eat/be warm for a day.
Teach a man to fish, or set him on fire, and he'll eat/be warm for the rest of his life. :P

Learn to fish kids, don't just snatch a cod off the table.

The problem with those people who don't come back is that most of them simply would not be able to multibox without someon holding their hands the whole time; ALOT of what we do is UNIQUE to EACH person. YOU choose your setup, YOU setup your macros based on YOUR SPECIFIC playstyle, knowledge, and setup. Sure, we can discuss here on the forums and share our methods to improve others' methods(such as Zyz's and Falkor's awesome macros that improved my playstyle) but you still have to have yours in the first place. I spent a solid week or two referring back to the forums when I first started, tweaking, learning, and without posting once; I didn't sign up till I'd been boxing for awhile on my own :p If you're curious about things like keyclone sure ask away but "WHERE DO I DOWNLOAD HOW TO MULTIBOX" and "HOW DO I CAST AT THE SAME TIME" and the like just ain't gonna cut it, those're the basicest of the basic. :P

Learn and use your god-given common sense, not only will it help you as a boxer but it will in life as well, too few people use it there too :P

And as for Majoho...we can't tell you what to play. That, again, is unique to YOU. YOUR playstyle. What classes YOU prefer. Some of us prefer Boomkins; others mixed-groups; others prefer warr over pala tanks; and some simply prefer the hotkey ease that is boxing the same class, particularly Shamen. Duo'ing for boxers is no different than it would be "solo"; pick a main class you like to play, pick a class that fills in whatever weakness it has(a healer for a Warrior, for example), and then do it. Our personal opinions may be that something you'd love playing sucks. But while I may not like playing a warr, you may love it; are you gonna play based on MY preferences, or YOURS? :P And Fur wasn't completely out of line; that class-selection wiki was written specifically to answer these questions; it still comes down to what you can stand playing. I will personally never play a mage; you clearly will. Don't call him an asshole because you want opinions on our class choices that really doesn't matter to your playstyle; at most we can tell you what's worked for US, but that's still for US, if we're good with that class. :P

[Maz]

Some people just post to be rude, if they are sick of people asking "stupid" questions they can just ignore it they don't have to post in the thread, but since they are assholes they insist on doing so.
Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

Although the irony is amusing, I didn't quite see any offensive posts made by Majoho personally, and the thread he linked to was basicly asking for input what people thought would be best. With perhaps some arguements to help him decide what to do.

I think in this case people have been too harsh. :P
I don't think Majoho came over particularly poorly in his original post. It could have been crafted better but it wasn't awful.

His subsequent behaviour in the thread didn't cast him in a particularly good light. Still giving the benefit of the doubt though.

Calling Fursphere and others assholes? /facepalm

[Kaynin]

True, but... I find "You have to decide the path you walk. We can only show you the way." more appropiate then "Find the path your own damned self, I put up a PRIVATE ROAD sign on my path.".

edit: And hmm, missed the asshole part I think, Maz. :p

[Maz]

edit: And hmm, missed the asshole part I think, Maz. :p

Some people just post to be rude, if they are sick of people asking "stupid" questions they can just ignore it they don't have to post in the thread, but since they are assholes they insist on doing so.

Fursphere who posted in this thread is an excelent example.
:rolleyes:

[Ken]

NO! X(























... :D

[Skuggomann]

Point them to me, il be gental and even use lube ;)




(NOTE: age riestriction is 8 years old)



 

[Kaynin]

(NOTE: age riestriction is 8 years old)





That's a max limit, for those wondering.

[Zaelar]

All you NEED to know to multi-box:

It isn't cheating.(well technically you don't need to know this...)
You need a different account for each character.

Thats about it. Then add in some helpful suggestions:

/assist party1 and /follow party1 macros. Can also use a toon's name or focus. -- highly suggested
If you play on one computer, use windowed mode. A broadcaster(keyclone/autohotkey/etc.) is helpful but not required.(anything over 3 I suggest using a broadcaster, 3 isn't hard without one though)
If you play on multiple computers a broadcaster(hardware or software) helps a lot.
For more information on broadcasting check the wiki and/or stickies in the forum.

Misc information:

General consensus is it is hard to use melee classes. A tank is fine but things get messy if you have more than one. It isn't impossible though.
Make your tank your main if you have one, healer if not.(if playing with 2 having your healer as secondary is fine) You should have whatever character is going to need the most micromanagement/attention as your main.
The wiki and stickies in the forum contain a lot of useful information, be sure to check them if you have a question. Using the forum search feature can answer many questions too. Don't be afraid to ask if something isn't answered elsewhere. Put in a reasonable effort to find an answer first though.
If you ask a question you must include the secret word from the sticky/wiki page of the relevant topic. Failure to do so will result in you getting banned. (the secret word will be edited out of your post automatically so others can't see it)

Maybe something like that in an easy to find place?

PS the secret word doesn't actually exist.

[Frosty]

First, you guys are all mean, and I'm never coming back again....EVER! :P

Second...What ever happened to the tried and true "RTFM"???? I have a ton of questions, but I research everything I can first before asking.
The main reason for this is I always learn something additional, that I wasn't even looking for, along the way.

[shaeman]

I frequent a number of forums and this is quite a common problem no matter which site.

There are a number of people that are impatient, expect people to help them, expect to give nothing in return and take offense at suggestions that they use either a search function or read the stickies.

Their attitude is that if you don't like it don't read it - but fail to realise that you then have to search through post after post of "help me now" topics to find something worthy of responding to.

Posting a special "Read this first rarely works" - they will ignore it - usually with the excuse that they don't have the time to waste reading something like that they want the answers now.

I'm not sure of solutions - other than moderators that post a url to the stickies and lock the thread.

Now - Can all you top multiboxers take my charactes and level them to 70 for me please. And make sure you do the job right - I'll expect them back fully epiced up. :D

[majoho]

Some people just post to be rude, if they are sick of people asking "stupid" questions they can just ignore it they don't have to post in the thread, but since they are assholes they insist on doing so.
Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

Although the irony is amusing, I didn't quite see any offensive posts made by Majoho personally, and the thread he linked to was basicly asking for input what people thought would be best. With perhaps some arguements to help him decide what to do.

I think in this case people have been too harsh. :P
I think that was a pretty good example, I assume there is no modding here.

--



I don't think Majoho came over particularly poorly in his original post. It could have been crafted better but it wasn't awful.

His subsequent behaviour in the thread didn't cast him in a particularly good light. Still giving the benefit of the doubt though.

What was wrong with my behaviour?

I explicitly said in my first post that I DID READ THE STICKES - and yet someone thinks he has a point by posting "read the stickies" - I thought a message board was for debating, doing some ping-pong and coming up with good ideas, but I guess I'm wrong.

And yes I said people that were rude were assholes, how would anyone say they aren't - it's not like I was calling someone randomly assholes.

[Eteocles]

Because it WAS covered in a sticky...the one he linked you to to boot. Said sticky listed the pros and cons of each class for boxers, and regardless of that, ONLY YOU can decide what you want to play. You want us to pick yer class for you, you want us to play it too? And wipe your ass? ..."MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM! BATHROOM!"; hell at this point you're pretty much not even playing; pick what you like, play what you like, enjoy it. We've listed what's good and bad about the classes, the synergies are obvious even without multiboxing(Windfury + Warr = happy warrior; healer + warr = happy warrior; boomkin + destro lock = happy high-dps warlock, etc)

[Icetech]

I just started coming here a week ago... first thing i did was read stickies/howto's.... there are some damn good ones.. i was able to multibox without asking one question... just by reading.. then i had the odd macro question and such... if people are too lazy to reado stickies, screw em. And that may sound harsh.. but a guy just posted today asking if there is a way to make the alts loot.. WTF there has been TONS of posts bout that, just search. You can never be too harsh to lazy ass forum people that want every spoonfed

[Dawnstone]

Half my enjoyment from multiboxing was learning HOW to do it. When my two PCs sync'd across the network the first time, and one mouse scrolled onto the 2nd pc, I was in awe. And this came from reading the boards, searching the stickies, using the search function, and even going off-site to other software DL's to weigh the pros/cons. It wasn't about having someone show me what to do, it was about having the information at hand and building something from it.

I love these forums because we can bounce ideas around (minimap ping, addons, macros, hardware, etc) and get honest responses. I don't think this forum was ever built to take average joe and turn them into a Multiboxer... its more of a place where we discover if we can create ourselves into a multiboxer.

[Kaynin]

Everyone's always been nice to me.

I kinda feel left out now. ;<

[Boylston]

Everyone's always been nice to me.

I kinda feel left out now. ;<

If you were halfway competent at the search function, you'd find several threads where we make fun of you.... Punk!

:)

[Kaynin]

:o

I feel the need to quest! (This thread doesn't count! XD Buddy! )

[jettmartinez]

My $.02 ....

When some one comes in with "Haiz guyz! I wants to multpwn but puters are too hard, now givs me leetz skills!"
Harsh away :D

But to be fair on the other side, the stickes are a mess (and the moves to a wikki just jumbled it more). The new mult-boxers forum has 4 or 5 stickies that basically say START HERE! ALL you need to know! Then each have separate bits and pieces. The 4 other's that are 6 layers down the technical chain and bound to scare off the timid. Jump to the macro fourm and there's another 4 or 5 that seem to be the same things done different ways. It certainly not the clear and concise starting point one might expect.

But to flip back to the other side, if they're going to be the type of person who enjoys multi-boxing and all it's tinkering, they'll be the type to plow the the spaghetti pile of stickies to get what they need. It is there, just not always obvious where to start.

[Kaynin]

So, what we need is this.

The sticky of all stickies!

One sticky, crying, pointing, screaming to people to read first. With in it a categorised overview to... Other stickies!

Hey hey hey... That might work!

[Boylston]

Here's my opinion on things:

I think some of our more dedicated members go a little "over the top" at times. Fursphere is a great example!! If you ask a question that hasn't been asked (and answered) 10,000 times in a very easy to find place (e.g. wiki or search), provide good details, he's likely to really unload and give you some super interesting advice or feedback. (Same is true of me-- I got so worked up trying to help someone understand how arena points work that I ended up writing a 2 page tutorial on the topic.) However, Fursphere goes equally over the top with posts like the one majoho started ("Tell me what is best", but no other qualifiers) in his capacity to not actually be helpful.

Getting the same poorly-researched question with not enough background information over and over is frustrating. In the case of multiboxing, it may be better for us to scare off a few people who want to be spoon-fed, because it's not like there's a really hard part at the beginning and then it's easy. The "what class should I roll" and the "how can I get a cracked copy of Keyclone" and the "please set all my macros up" requests can be followed on by an endless seas of questions like "how do I get 2000 rating in 5v5 now that I dinged 70" and "plz tell me how to 10-box Karazhan".

On the whole, I think the forums are pretty helpful. If you can't deal with an occasionally over-the-top Fursphere, you're ill-equipped to handle the people on your server who are going to report you or accuse you of having no life.

What a lot of folks fail to account for is exactly how rude it is for someone to waltz into a community forum space, skip the process of understanding the social norms that may exist, and selfishly ask for help with a problem that may be well-documented or discussed. Imagine meeting your new neighbor by having him break down the front door, walk into your living room, plop down on your couch, and ask for your spouse to get him a drink. That's a far cry different from, "<Ding dong> Hi, I wanted to introduce myself. I'm Chip, your new neighbor. I just moved in and the water company seems to have forgotten to turn on my service. Could I trouble you for a glass of water?"

[Gallo]

I've been in this community for about a year now, and about every 2 months this exact topic comes up. Here is a summary of what happens, and what always will happen:

- Someone asks if we're too harsh to people
- Someone points out that hardly anyone reads stickies before posting
- Someone points out that we should be nice
- Everyone loses interest in thread

:)

[OzPhoenix]

Ok, well, I'm pretty new to these forums and not much less newer to multiboxing as my signature shows, but I've tried as hard as I could to avoid asking the sort of "what does [insert sticky-answered topic] do?" questions.

That said, much of the stickied information - and the wiki's for that matter - isn't terribly well laid out. It's been an exercise in determined trolling to find some of the information I needed, and despite the titles to the contrary, I've yet to find any single authoratative "New 5 Boxer Go Here" thread/sticky/wiki. There's some that go close, but not one that you could say, start from scratch, print this out, and having a 5-box team up and running, levelling etc.

So, guess I'll take a shot at writing one, from go to woah, for a 5-box Shammy team (which seems to be the predominant starters choice). Will post it when I'm done.

[Ken]

As a result of this discussion(and earlier consideration), I decided it was time to create a better "getting started" guide on the wiki. The previous one was very specific about hardware and software considerations, where the current one is more of a generic guide with simple practical samples and most of all: links to all the relevant pages with specific/detailed information.
http://www.dual-boxing.com/wiki/index.php/Getting_started

(the old article is still mentioned in the introduction)

[Greythan]

I'm new to the multi-boxing realm. (Team is levels 19/20 atm)

This site has been invaluable in getting me rolling. Keyclone was an easy purchase for me (I can afford it). The stickies/wiki are all very helpful.

I would say this: the best message boards I've seen for "technical" gaming topics like this one adopt an /ignore feature for posts containing questions that can easily be answered by reading stickies/wiki. Flaming them or bumping them, or maybe worse (answering them) only fans the fire. My two coppers.

I'd also say that our wiki and stickies could use some work. (Not a criticism as building those resources takes EFFORT and TIME from the most experienced end of this community's membership.) There seems to be a ton of really great content buried in posts. Everyone loves to flame the official class forums, but some of those stickies server to really filter the basic to intermediate queries. As the stickies/wiki mature here, the posts by well-intentioned, researching newbies (like myself) will decrease. That will generally leave just the "hold my hand" posts that can be ignored.

[Gallo]

I've yet to find any single authoratative "New 5 Boxer Go Here" thread/sticky/wiki. There's some that go close, but not one that you could say, start from scratch, print this out, and having a 5-box team up and running, levelling etc.

So, guess I'll take a shot at writing one, from go to woah, for a 5-box Shammy team (which seems to be the predominant starters choice). Will post it when I'm done.

There are a couple of stickied posts labeled "How to 2,3,4 or 5 Box" and 2 Wiki Posts about leveling/PVEing with 5x Shaman groups. So I guess it's not "New Boxer go here", but it's damn near a synonym.

[jettmartinez]

As a result of this discussion(and earlier consideration), I decided it was time to create a better "getting started" guide on the wiki. The previous one was very specific about hardware and software considerations, where the current one is more of a generic guide with simple practical samples and most of all: links to all the relevant pages with specific/detailed information.
http://www.dual-boxing.com/wiki/index.php/Getting_started

(the old article is still mentioned in the introduction)Now that's a good starting place. Nice work. :thumbsup:

[OzPhoenix]

As a result of this discussion(and earlier consideration), I decided it was time to create a better "getting started" guide on the wiki. The previous one was very specific about hardware and software considerations, where the current one is more of a generic guide with simple practical samples and most of all: links to all the relevant pages with specific/detailed information.
http://www.dual-boxing.com/wiki/index.php/Getting_started

(the old article is still mentioned in the introduction)

Glad to see it - I would be happy to help in whatever way I can. Feel free to PM if you like and I could perhaps contribute something to it.

[Anjuna]

I just started here less than a week ago and I have found you guys to be very helpful. Not harsh in any way, shape or form. I know, for me, the 1st few days were pretty rough, I felt like my head was going to explode while trying to learn. Maybe the same thing is happening to some people and they give up, I dunno.

[Ken]

[...]
Glad to see it - I would be happy to help in whatever way I can. Feel free to PM if you like and I could perhaps contribute something to it.
You're always welcome to add stuff. Just go out there and edit/create pages! ;)
When you're not sure if you can add/change certain things, please drop me(or Djarid) a message or open a topic about it on the wiki forum category.

[OzPhoenix]

[...]
Glad to see it - I would be happy to help in whatever way I can. Feel free to PM if you like and I could perhaps contribute something to it.
You're always welcome to add stuff. Just go out there and edit/create pages! ;)
When you're not sure if you can add/change certain things, please drop me(or Djarid) a message or open a topic about it on the wiki forum category.

Will do. The missus is heading off this weekend for some time with her friends, so I'll have some time to do something. I think a collabrative effort will work much better than one person (or a few) trying to do it all, and by all, I was thinking of a Wiki that takes someone right from the beginning through to their 10th level or so (explaining for example, that yes, you do really really wanna skip collection quests etc).

For starters, I'd be happy to write up something first of all in the "Getting Started" section. I know for myself, I botched my account creations (one of them didn't use my refer-a-friend, costing me a months free time on my main), and a few other mistakes.

It might be worth making a specific "So, you've decided to 5-box WoW" section and get specific on Shamans given how much people tend to use them, and it could launch people into more diversified grouping. For a get-go, I'll write up a "Making 5 WoW Accounts" section out and see what you all think of it.

[OzPhoenix]

I just started here less than a week ago and I have found you guys to be very helpful. Not harsh in any way, shape or form. I know, for me, the 1st few days were pretty rough, I felt like my head was going to explode while trying to learn. Maybe the same thing is happening to some people and they give up, I dunno.

I think that's an ongoing process. I know for me, the biggest single reason why my team is levelling so slowly is every few levels I have to stop and re-write macros as I get to understand them better and make more efficient use of the limited space given to us by Blizz for them. If I took out my macro time, I'd be closer to 40 now instead of 30 given my /played time on the Shammies.

[Ken]

[...]I was thinking of a Wiki that takes someone right from the beginning through to their 10th level or so (explaining for example, that yes, you do really really wanna skip collection quests etc).
You have to be careful about these things, because - for example - collection quests shouldn't be skipped if you're 2-boxing :)


It might be worth making a specific "So, you've decided to 5-box WoW" section and get specific on Shamans given how much people tend to use them, and it could launch people into more diversified grouping. For a get-go, I'll write up a "Making 5 WoW Accounts" section out and see what you all think of it.
Good idea @ account creation section.

[OzPhoenix]

Will write it up this weekend then as a starter, and go from there.

As to levelling one, I was again thinking of a 5-shaman specific "walkthrough" as once that was in place, it would be much easier for people to diversify from there.

[Eteocles]

the 1st few days were pretty rough, I felt like my head was going to explode while trying to learn.

This is exactly how I felt starting my current job dealing with credit card chargebacks and the like...my head literally felt like it would explode from all the information I had to learn just to READ the info let alone PROCESS it. Now, it's quite literally 2nd nature and I just skim through and find the relevant info and know exactly where to look and click.

I personally strongly believe in learning and doing things yourself. The only person you can always depend on is yourself. If you can't do that noone else can help you. Not just in multi-boxing but as a life skill in general; learn to fish, don't take a fish. :P That said, most of you HAVE done so; you newer guys are just a testament that it's not that big of a problem to start, especially with how much info is available now compared to when I started when the forums consisted of a dozen simple posts, 99% of which were Keyclone, with a single post for AHK and maybe one other option that wasn't hardware.(And yes, it was in the blinding snow, uphill, both ways, you whippersnappers.) Between Keyclone and the info here it's quite literally easier than ever to box, hence why our numbers are growing so much :p

I vote our new response to "What do I do first?" be "Grow a thick skin and prepare for flaming."; if you can't deal with what little "flaming" is seen here, then you're in for a world of hurt and banning when the REAL dickheads start in on you for being a, quote, "lifeless loser who wastes his parent's money on a game from their basement cuz he can't kill with a solo char and NEEDS 5 chars to win, who is also cheating, going to sell ALL their hard work on ebay, and is using bots to play them to boot."; tl;dr: You think this is bad? The WoW "Community" will be an absolute nightmare then. :P

However, I will agree the stickies need cleaning up; I've posted no less than THREE FUCKING TIMES how to clean them up and merge similar threads into one to save space and searching but even after the wiki was done not one damn sticky was un-stickied or merged. At this point during my next "boring friday at work" I may just write up a far more comprehensive Getting Started FAQ(Apologies to the above getting started wiki; I haven't read it yet and do not include you in this rant lol) and then send it with demands to fix sticky to our fearless leaders and get this shit cleaned up once and for all :p

[Jaws5]

No I do not think we are Harsh, To be a boxer you have to have thick skin :) Some understand that and want to learn, and some do not want to learn.

[Basilikos]

No, I don't think we're too harsh with people. I did all my reading before I asked any questions and everyone else should do the same.

[kllrwlf]

The posts that I'm annoyed with are the vague, general questions.

Like:

1. "Wow, cool, how do I multibox?" - (very vague, person didn't even bother reading the stickies or doing a search. Just came to the forums, registered, posted this question and waiting for someone to do it for them).
2. "What classes should I pick?" - (again... vague. person doesn't even have an idea of which classes they want to play, just waiting for someone to give them a L33T setup)
3. "I don't have money, for accounts or for computers... help!" - I understand wanting to save money and all that... but you need money to do this. At least enough for your computers and multiple accounts.
4. "I'm using my brother/friends/cousins/whatever account...." - Against the TOS... expect a ban... but they want to fight the reason why they would get noticed more by GMs and that it's "ok" to do it.
5. "How do you spread out" - OMFG-- RTFS !!!!

The ones I don't mind would be:

1. "Wow, cool, I downloaded keyclone, have my computers setup, but for some reason one of my toons isn't working correctly." - Specific question.
2. "I'm thinking of a Paly, Mage, Shaman, Druid, Hunter setup.. what do you think" - Again, specific.
3. "My room is getting too hot with all 5 computers running, do you think this computer model, do you think it'll work?" - Specific question

Helping is good... that's what the forums are for, to help and share ideas and information.

Forums are not for holding your hand and hand-feeding you information.

[Buzzatronic]

Forums made up of mostly technically oriented people tend to be harsh in general since most people who are technical by nature are not usually the best with people. This forum is no different than any other technical forum I've visited in the past in this regard.

Forums also trend towards cliques or mob think in regards to certain topics and those who stray against the norm (or question the clique leaders) are typically beaten up pretty quickly by the mob or the self-designated defenders. This forum is no different than any other forum I've visited in the past in this regard as well.

Ultimately it doesn't matter since the forum is what it is and the people and personalities in the forum are not going to change.

[Khazrael]

Forums made up of mostly technically oriented people tend to be harsh in general since most people who are technical by nature are not usually the best with people. This forum is no different than any other technical forum I've visited in the past in this regard.

I'm a people person... I'm good with people! WHY CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?!

[Ken]

Forums made up of mostly technically oriented people tend to be harsh in general since most people who are technical by nature are not usually the best with people. This forum is no different than any other technical forum I've visited in the past in this regard.
If a community exists out of mostly technically-skilled people, it usually means that the topic requires some technical skills. Or in other words: people that don't have these technical skills or don't want to learn those skills(not directly related to multiboxing) probably don't belong here. People expect at least a minimum of self-teaching abilities here. That's not really an elitist requirement.
Most people that leave quickly seem to think that multiboxing is cheap and easy because it looks easy when they seem videos or see multiboxing characters in the game.



Forums also trend towards cliques or mob think in regards to certain topics and those who stray against the norm (or question the clique leaders) are typically beaten up pretty quickly by the mob or the self-designated defenders. This forum is no different than any other forum I've visited in the past in this regard as well.

Ultimately it doesn't matter since the forum is what it is and the people and personalities in the forum are not going to change.

Do you really know the 'leaders'(admins and moderators) here? Because they are actually very open-minded people.
I have to say that I have gone against a quite few things here(wikifrontpage, wiki logo, wiki category structure) and even as a newbie I actually got results. (changed the frontpage, almost got the new logo through, wiki category system is open for discussion again, etc.)
So I don 't really think that we have mobs and cliques of mobs. People are generally very nice and open about all the content that is available here. That's also why I like to hang around here.

[Buzzatronic]

Do you really know the 'leaders'(admins and moderators) here? Because they are actually very open-minded people.
I have to say that I have gone against a quite few things here(wikifrontpage, wiki logo, wiki category structure) and even as a newbie I actually got results. (changed the frontpage, almost got the new logo through, wiki category system is open for discussion again, etc.)
So I don 't really think that we have mobs and cliques of mobs. People are generally very nice and open about all the content that is available here. That's also why I like to hang around here.
Your response illustrates my point perfectly. :)

[Ken]

Your response illustrates my point perfectly. :)
So... I give a whole constructive reasoning why your post doesn't make sense to me and then you counter that - without any arguments whatsoever - by saying that I just proved you right. Come on!

If you find me harsh or if you find my post related to clique-mob behavior, please explain how. It's not because I have a defensive stance towards the crew that I'm showing clique-mob behavior. I think that by going against quite a few things here that I have proven not to be part of such behavior.

[Eteocles]

I'm definantly not part of a clique or baaing with any sheep...if I've got an opinion, I don't give 2 fucks who's on which side of it, I'll voice it ;) But you know you all still <3 me anyways, why, noone knows. lolz

I believe the term I'm thinking of is that I'm an "Equal-Opportunity Asshole" ;D

[Vyndree]

I believe the term I'm thinking of is that I'm an "Equal-Opportunity Asshole" ;D

QFT. ;)

<3

I do agree that some certain folks are quite defensive of Rob/Keyclone being that so many have had good experiences with him and his software. That would be the ONLY place where I can see any sort of "cliquish" behavior going on -- but it's usually in response to a generally nasty accusational thread. In that way, I think it's a justified reaction from a passionate fanbase.

[Eteocles]

Hah, <3 Vyn :P

[Buzzatronic]

Your response illustrates my point perfectly. :)
So... I give a whole constructive reasoning why your post doesn't make sense to me and then you counter that - without any arguments whatsoever - by saying that I just proved you right. Come on!

If you find me harsh or if you find my post related to clique-mob behavior, please explain how. It's not because I have a defensive stance towards the crew that I'm showing clique-mob behavior. I think that by going against quite a few things here that I have proven not to be part of such behavior.
So I basically say that it's my opinion that internet forums in general tend to breed a need for some users to become self appointed defenders of other users against attacks (both actual and created) and that this forum is no different than any other forum I've visited in this regard. You respond with a defense of people (who I never once mentioned or even eluded to) and how open-minded and nice they are.

Do you seriously not see how that illustrates my point perfectly?

I'm not saying what you say or feel is wrong, all I'm saying is that the behavior is normal and that this forum is no better or worse than most others I've seen. That is not an attack on anyone, but if you still feel a need to defend the good name of others who such a statement does attack, go for it.

[Ken]

Do you seriously not see how that illustrates my point perfectly?

I'm not saying what you say or feel is wrong, all I'm saying is that the behavior is normal and that this forum is no better or worse than most others I've seen. That is not an attack on anyone, but if you still feel a need to defend the good name of others who such a statement does attack, go for it.

"Forums made up of mostly technically oriented people tend to be harsh", that might not have meant as an attack, still it was a negative comment that I wanted to reply on.

I agree that some behavior might be identical to other forums. Especially when it comes to guidelines about posting: non-technical forums usually don't have proper guidelines and expectations and are usually piling up loads of senseless posts about virtually nothing(I can generalize too :P). When I see technical forums (like this one) the bar is set higher than on non-technical forums and people have expectations when other people start posting. There is a minimum amount of quality demanded.
When people are too lazy to follow the rules (that everyone else is following) or read the obvious stickies, I think it's normal that they get the reactions we get here in the forums (as long as those reactions are written in a normal manner).
This kind of behavior is not harsh to me. People just need a thicker skin if they can't cope with reality (that they don't get everything served on a plate in front of them). I know this might sound harsh, but to me it's just common sense.
Within corporations you find the same mentality: if you don't research something first, don't ask questions. If you do ask questions(with answers already available), people will tell you in your face that you should have looked it up first and they would be absolutely right. And yes, that happens also to me.

But to answer your question:
I don't consider myself as a mob going against you and I'm not trying to beat you up for your point of view. I'm just not agreeing with you. So, no: I don't see how I illustrated your answer perfectly.
When you post something like "people shouldn't be so defensive concerning 'their leaders'!" and I can't tell you that you're wrong, then your comments are not discussable, because *any * reaction against you would be a reaction that you could use as evidence that you're right (whether you're right or not). That was why I made the previous reply. I found it unfair that you just claimed a 'you see! I was right!' as I find that I proved nothing with that post.
It's ok for you to express your own impressions of a community, but just like in many tech-forums, you'll be expected to justify these claims.


Ultimately it doesn't matter since the forum is what it is and the people and personalities in the forum are not going to change.
If a whole forum has a specific personality, why should the forum change and not that one person?
[edit] I'm not saying that a whole forum can't be wrong, I'm just pointing out that it's *likely* that it's a user problem, not a forum problem.

[Knytestorme]

Well this provided more discussion than I expected, but was also good discussion so I'm happy :)

It's cool too that most people picked up on what I was actually wondering and the responses headed in that direction without it having to be spelt out. My main concern is if our responses to the people that want ezi-mode or for us to do everything for them without them having to do any research or learning were scaring off other new members that had done the research but still had questions.

From some of the responses here by newer members (and listen to me, talking like an old hand..too weird) that put in the effort it seems that hasn't been the case so it's good to know and means that the filtering process is working for the most part. I also agree that having a thick skin is most needed for multiboxing since you'll be copping it a lot harder in game and on the boards from anti-multiboxers than anything that would be felt here, since I think we even go too easy on people that deserve to be laid into...of as has been said.


Many times I tihink we as a coumminity are simply not harsh enough.

[Simulacra]

Can we have something like access levels to the forums? So a new poster can post noob questions to a public general forum and the community can go check the noob posts if they want to. There would be a sticky in the public forum with a good explanation of multiboxing approaches and a link to the wiki. After the noob has stopped asking trivial questions and have demonstrated an understanding of macros etc they are then invited to join the community and then have access to all forums.

If somebody has already suggested this earlier in this thread then my apologies, I had to skip the last 2 pages because I'm at work.

[Kayley]

ITT: people don't talk about WoW.

[Gadzooks]

How many people go "overboard" helping people in game that inquire about multiboxing? Giving them all the details, methods, etc.

I know I do. And when I feel they are truly interested, I direct them here to the forums. I sort of "feel them out" first, to try and stem off the total noobs who still have their parents changing their diapers.
Then I come here, and its the same question every day - that the answer is SUPER easy to find. Or questions that are so subjective that one cannot give an honest answer because there are too many variables? (omg what class should I choose?!)

Honestly? With the huge influx of new people lately, and all the bad PR we get, screw them. The less people doing this the better. All this community needs is some shit stained individual that likes to post on the general forums start multiboxing and giving us all a bad name.

I'm help the people who show they are worth helping. The total jack holes? learn2wikiIf you can't poke around or use the search feature to find out basic info, let's be honest, multi-boxing is NOT for you. It takes a lot of trial and error, experimentation, research, patience, and more trial and error. If you are a typical person who just bellows questions in general without even trying, or hits Thottbot before even trying a quest, you won't get 2 or more characters out of the starting position in the game.

Multi-boxing *should* weed out the lazy, it's not really something they'll enjoy, they just want the pew pew pew factor, not the fun of putting it all together and trying things.

[Tasty]

'Help me help you by helping yourself'

[antishadow]

Since I'm not allowed to simply nuke said retarded posts, posting in them to tell them to learn2search is the next best thing.I hate to point this out since you did this to me instead of giving a couple pointers or even a helpful search term that might get me what I was after :evil: . All you do here is clutter up the search results. So now someone searching for exactly what someone else posts will just get a thread in their search results that has no answer in it. Just a smartass response. Pretty soon people come and try to do exactly what you say and do searches and get 2-3 pages of "use the search" prompting said user to then just create a new thread asking the same thing.

You... are... my... hero... :thumbup:

[Gadzooks]

Since I'm not allowed to simply nuke said retarded posts, posting in them to tell them to learn2search is the next best thing.I hate to point this out since you did this to me instead of giving a couple pointers or even a helpful search term that might get me what I was after :evil: . All you do here is clutter up the search results. So now someone searching for exactly what someone else posts will just get a thread in their search results that has no answer in it. Just a smartass response. Pretty soon people come and try to do exactly what you say and do searches and get 2-3 pages of "use the search" prompting said user to then just create a new thread asking the same thing.

You... are... my... hero... :thumbup:Antishadow, are you under the impression this is a public forum provided as part of a larger service, or a forum you pay to access, thus have rights?

This is a private clubhouse. Them are the house rules. This is not Blizzard. This is run by the people who do it for fun, and owe you no obligations, you are a guest, and should act like one.

[Buzzatronic]

"Forums made up of mostly technically oriented people tend to be harsh", that might not have meant as an attack, still it was a negative comment that I wanted to reply on.
If saying the forum is harsh in some way is negative, why aren't you replying to all the other posts by much more established members that say the forums are just the right amount of harsh or not harsh enough because noobs need to l2search or l2sticky?

You're reading WAY MORE into what I'm saying than I'm actually saying and as a result, you're spamming your wall of text key in defense of something you think I'm attacking. Take a step back, take a breath and realize that I'm agreeing with most of the people in this thread with what I'm saying, rather than assuming I'm trying to be negative or attacking someone or something you feel doesn't deserve it.



Ultimately it doesn't matter since the forum is what it is and the people and personalities in the forum are not going to change.
If a whole forum has a specific personality, why should the forum change and not that one person?
[edit] I'm not saying that a whole forum can't be wrong, I'm just pointing out that it's *likely* that it's a user problem, not a forum problem.
Where did I say anything needed to change? I simply stated things are the way they are and that's the way they'll stay. I didn't assign blame one way or another yet it appears you are assuming I did. Again, you're reading way more than I'm writing my friend. Relax.

[antishadow]

Antishadow, are you under the impression this is a public forum provided as part of a larger service, or a forum you pay to access, thus have rights?

This is a private clubhouse. Them are the house rules. This is not Blizzard. This is run by the people who do it for fun, and owe you no obligations, you are a guest, and should act like one. I never stated that or implied that did I? I will only treat people the way I've been treated. I only stated that if people just post use the search without anything else it will clutter up the search results causing more postings that everyone dislikes so much because its harder to find what you're after. Wow. Just... Wow.

I will note that its not the "rude" person that will clutter up the results, its the person who wrote the original thread however if a link or more specific reply was given it would clean up the search results for anyone else who happened to search and got that thread.

But hey - its just a suggestion. Should I not have any interest in helping out a popular forum or site that discusses something that I enjoy?

*edit: my apologies for replying to a comment made on the first page. i didn't realize this topic was 5 pages long. doh!

[Tdog]

Well this is my take on things...

Are we too harsh?

First off we got to understand that this is a relative question. Are we too harsh in compared to what? the WoW forums? Umm...no, HELL NO!!!

That being said in my opinion no I don't believe overall we are too harsh. Are there at times that certain posts have a bit of harshness to them? Mmm..yea. I've seen a couple of responses in posts that were a bit curt and short with people. Nothing I've really sat back and was like, "Omg that was so uncalled for..." Just a few things here are there like "Why don't you check the stickies instead of being lazy?" or "Hmm maybe you think we have a wiki for decorations?" Those aren't exact quotes but they get the idea across.


However I would like to point one thing out. In not just interwebz forums but in life in general that things like this generally start out small and and get a tiny bit bigger

"Why don't you check out the stickies first? noob.."

and a tiny bit bigger "Why don't you check out the stickies first? L2readnoob and stop being lazy"

and bigger "OMFG!!!1! Perhap you didn't see the clearly written stickies that point out exactly what you and the last 10 noobs before you posted today?"

and bigger "Hmm if a were a lazy noob where would I be? In the wrong gd damn forums asking stupid questions instead of doing the obvious and checking the umm...STICKIES!!! or hell I don't know the WIKI!!! that clearly states all this crap that even a retarded monkey could figure out???!!! But nooooo, waste all our time making stupid posts, retard!!!"

till eventually you have the official WoW Forums... :(


Now obviously this forum is aways away from the WoW forums' level of fail but could it eventually happen? Certainly. Thankfully our moderators seem much more involved in the community than that though.

[Oswyn]

I like being nice, so I'll try to be as much as possible. But honestly, if it's something blatently obvious on other posts, stickies, or wiki, then I just won't respond.

[Gadzooks]

Antishadow, are you under the impression this is a public forum provided as part of a larger service, or a forum you pay to access, thus have rights?

This is a private clubhouse. Them are the house rules. This is not Blizzard. This is run by the people who do it for fun, and owe you no obligations, you are a guest, and should act like one. I never stated that or implied that did I? I will only treat people the way I've been treated. I only stated that if people just post use the search without anything else it will clutter up the search results causing more postings that everyone dislikes so much because its harder to find what you're after. Wow. Just... Wow.

I will note that its not the "rude" person that will clutter up the results, its the person who wrote the original thread however if a link or more specific reply was given it would clean up the search results for anyone else who happened to search and got that thread.

But hey - its just a suggestion. Should I not have any interest in helping out a popular forum or site that discusses something that I enjoy?

*edit: my apologies for replying to a comment made on the first page. i didn't realize this topic was 5 pages long. doh!Anti - can I call you Anti? - it's very simple. You could have addressed the issue privately with the people who own this clubhouse, or been a LOT nicer in your post.

Yes, you might be right - but it's how you posted it, that made me ask you what I did. Tone down the sarcasm a bit, when asking for someone to fix something.

[Ken]

"Forums made up of mostly technically oriented people tend to be harsh", that might not have meant as an attack, still it was a negative comment that I wanted to reply on.
If saying the forum is harsh in some way is negative, why aren't you replying to all the other posts by much more established members that say the forums are just the right amount of harsh or not harsh enough because noobs need to l2search or l2sticky?

Anyone that claims "noobs need to l2search or l2sticky" is derogatory and being harsh, I think we can both agree on that. And I think that I am as much against that as you are. You were talking about the whole forum, not about specific people being harsh, that's why I specifically reacted on your post. It was a generalization that is in my opinion not true.
And yes, the "keyclone contains a keylogger!!111" topic was a good sample of people being harsh. But how many topics like these are there? And the case of this topic: a harsh topic start will more likely lead to harsh reactions.
Ok, then there's quite a few topics like "I'm new and need help" where people just reply "read the stickies and the wiki pages!" is that harsh? It definitely isn't to me...


You're reading WAY MORE into what I'm saying than I'm actually saying and as a result, you're spamming your wall of text key in defense of something you think I'm attacking. Take a step back, take a breath and realize that I'm agreeing with most of the people in this thread with what I'm saying, rather than assuming I'm trying to be negative or attacking someone or something you feel doesn't deserve it.
Sometimes, to explain yourself, it takes a bit more than 1 sentence. I think I agree with you in some ways, I just disagree when you generalize certain things onto the whole community.



Ultimately it doesn't matter since the forum is what it is and the people and personalities in the forum are not going to change.
If a whole forum has a specific personality, why should the forum change and not that one person?
[edit] I'm not saying that a whole forum can't be wrong, I'm just pointing out that it's *likely* that it's a user problem, not a forum problem.


Where did I say anything needed to change? I simply stated things are the way they are and that's the way they'll stay. I didn't assign blame one way or another yet it appears you are assuming I did. Again, you're reading way more than I'm writing my friend. Relax.
When someone says something along the lines of "people are not going to change" (and especially in this context) it usually implies that they'd rather see it(e.g. the behavior of people towards new people) changed. Then again, I might have interpreted it wrong that way.

Anyway, no hard feelings ;) My stress levels are pretty much ok ;P

[Drizzit]

when i first came here i used the search to find out all i can before i posted. But there is a ton out there and some things are hard to search for. Even now i have trouble finding things, like i type in av or ab or bg in the search and nothing comes up. I know that a lot of stuff is answered like 50 times but maybe instead of saying read wiki is not the best answer because they don't know where to look in the wiki. Maybe linking them to the wiki would be better or to a similar post. I remember when i first started posting, i said if there is something out there let me know, if someone had a link i would follow it. I have to say that you guys are nice when it comes to answering questions, and pretty fast too.

Here are a couple thoughs:
- If someone has a similar post link them to that post and no one else reply to that post. That way they will post on that thread instead of there thread. If 5 people are asking the same general thing in different post then someone says go to this post, that 5 just become one and even though it is a stupid post, only 1 post gets bumped instead of 5.
- Is there any way that the search can be find to make it a little more user friendly?
- Maybe we could have a couple more main forms so it is easier to find stuff?

[Havelcek]

The problem is that since this community is generally pretty helpful and responsive, the forums are starting to get full of daily posts that cross into "How do I play WoW" ground. Writing macros is not boxing-specific, fixing your graphics is not boxing-specific, understanding classes is not boxing-specific, yet we are seeing more and more of those questions.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Or, we have absolute winners like this one today: Help me :S ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=7571&highlight=')

I mean, WTF?

[Crucial]

Anyway, love me or hate me, I don't care. Make stupid posts that cover a topic that has been beaten to death, I'm going to tell you to push the search button.

I'd rather see you nuke the post before it has a chance to warrant any replies...

[Marathon]

I am comming into this post kinda late but I found everyone here pretty helpful when I posted a very specific question. But multiboxing can be intimidating because there is a pretty big learning curve to it all, I would think that the average person would look at all this and say HOLY COW !!!! But bottom line is if you really want to do it, you will find a way to do it.

Thank you to everyone who has helped me out in the past !!! And i assure I will be asking many more questions in the future !!! :thumbsup:

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Bottom line here (from what I can see in this and other threads) is that we're exceedingly helpful to people who ask specific questions and moderately helpful when people ask more general questions. The ones we tend to flame are the ones that absolutely fail at trying to communicate in any meaningful manner and/or have obviously spent zero time researching anything whatsoever.

Using these forums is much like using google: garbage in, garbage out. (though I will say that the built-in search function leaves much to be desired with regards to pattern matching and search result relevance)

[keyclone]

well, that would be stifling discussion if you did that...

[Khazrael]

It could also force them to read and come back creating a new post with a more useful question, rather then the generic ones that everyone is tired of seeing.

[Havelcek]

well, that would be stifling discussion if you did that...Elitist Jerks takes an extremely harsh approach to moderation and I'd argue they have the best WoW forums on the internet hands down. The downside is that you need 24-7 active moderation, which is a whole different issue.

[glo]

I imagine alot of the people you see only post once or twice realize there is no magic multi-boxing addon or software to let them do it and go back to what they were doing. If you can't read a few stickies this isn't really the hobby for you.

[keyclone]

of course.. i would say about 90% of these types of questions are in the noobie area... no one says you have to lurk through that sub forum. just ignore it unless you have the patience and tolerance to interface with the noobies.

many times, this is such a new concept to them... and a bit intimidating... they find it very appealing that there is a forum with a group of friendly people willing to give them a hand.

don't get me wrong.. i've lost it a couple of times over the past year.. but i think, overall, i haven't been too bad.

(ducks from incoming)

[Tdog]

I imagine alot of the people you see only post once or twice realize there is no magic multi-boxing addon or software to let them do it and go back to what they were doing. If you can't read a few stickies this isn't really the hobby for you.basically...you'll see alot of people looking for something like an add-on called "multi-boxing" and think they are just going to plug and play. When that actually isn't how it goes at all.

[Knytestorme]

well, that would be stifling discussion if you did that...Elitist Jerks takes an extremely harsh approach to moderation and I'd argue they have the best WoW forums on the internet hands down. The downside is that you need 24-7 active moderation, which is a whole different issue.

I'd have argued that the FOH forums were until Blizzard stopped Furor from posting there. It was very similar to EJ but he wasn't afraid to lay into people for their stupidity first :D

[Tdog]

Alright let's all just agree to disagree and we can use this image as our official response to all the posters that clearly don't take the time to read the wiki or use the search button...

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn225/KillerTX/SLJ3.gif

(Please do not actually use this pic for any responses to people asking questions. It was just a joke :P )

[Eteocles]

We're all adults and(/or) supposedly mature here, a few words ain't gonna break yer thick skin ;p Besides, that's part of the quote Fur, haven't you ever seen that movie? Shame on you :P

[Tdog]

I think we're trying to stear away from the use of profanity. At least I censor my posts. :P

I feel confident that i could single handedly deal with the hopeless noob problem, but the level of "harshness" may be innappropraite to many of the readers eyes, and our new member count would sharply drop off. :PFirst off it was just a joke :P

Second off is this better for your virgin ears? :D

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn225/KillerTX/SLJ2.gif

[Eteocles]

Second off is this better for your virgin ears? :D

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn225/KillerTX/SLJ2.gif

Oh god I lol'd.

[Tdog]

Notice the ( :P ) (sarcasm)

Dude, I am a former US Marine. There is no amount of profanity that could ever bug me. I think you guy's sarcasm detetor is broken.I was suspecting so but wasnt sure after eteo comment. Either way u seem like the kind of guy that can take some teasing :)

[Gadzooks]

A large portion of society today, at least here in the USA, is of the "SPOON FEED ME RIGHT F'ING NOW G-DAMNIT!". They want instant results with zero effort. They want people and governments to do everything for them, including wipe their arses.

This personally disgusts me. Its vile filth that should be exterminated off this planet. The above poster that pointed out that I treated him with the "you didn't help me" crap. If you would have USED the damn search button, even for a second... or browsed a few paages of the forums, you would have seen the huge trend of Shaman related posts.

The argument of "if you tell them to just search instead of helping, you ruin the search results" - so you'd rather have 100 pages of threads all saying the same thing, because everyone asks similar questions? Seriously? Or You're suggestion of "suggest helpfull search terms"... do you want me to play the game for you too? How about I get a job to pay for your WoW subscriptions as well. F'ing wanker.

The answer to the most general questions are clear as day. If you can't find them, you probably shouldn't be playing video games in the first place, while instead getting out in the real world searching for a clue.

This forum has not yet begun to see "harsh", and I hope it doesn't end up going down that path.

/end meltdown :PLike I said, if you can't dig into this great and *free* resource that you give us, to find answers to common questions, then multi-boxing is not for you. You have to be a tinkerer at heart, naturally curious, and creative. I've learned all I needed just from reading the posts by the true pioneers who hang out here - and learned even more just reading *everything*. Then, once I had some specific questions, I knew the lay of the land here and knew how to find it for myself.

[leukos]

A large portion of society today, at least here in the USA, is of the "SPOON FEED ME RIGHT F'ING NOW G-DAMNIT!". They want instant results with zero effort. They want people and governments to do everything for them, including wipe their arses.

Here is a great phrase to use in business meetings or other situations where someone is acting like a child:

I want a pony!

[Eteocles]

I want a pony!

FOR PONY!(Bonus points if you get the reference)

[yarr]

IMO if they are posting stupid questions like that in the general forums, it means they haven't even put in the effort to find the newbie/beginner forum. Which means they are fair game.

In the newbie forum, some leniency may be a good thing, although i really don't think we have been unduely rude.

[Shonkey]

Everything a boxer needs to know is in the forums/wiki's. (I am proof of this, i 5 box and got all the information i needed from these forums and the wiki here) New people just need to learn to do some research. People that join a forum and start screaming for help on the first few posts rarely receive a good response.

I don't think people are being harsh. I think some people have unrealistic expectations on the assistance they think people in this forums should provide. Its a hard thing to setup, its not for everyone. The sooner new people understand this the better.

Please continue the discussions and I shall continue to lurk. (Like i am sure there are many more boxers that lurk on this forum but don't post)

[Kaynin]

You know what's more interesting?

Ever since I play WoW (day 1 retail) I've been somewhat of a carebear. (ie. easy going, never frustrated, gieving hugs to everyone.) But since I started multiboxing, I've developped a more harsh, direct attitude ingame. Possible from the people being negative about multiboxing. But I lost my carebear stance in many situations and feel like I'm a lot sharper and to the point when it comes to generic things. xP

[Maz]

http://www.brainfuel.tv/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/nopony.jpg

[Moxy]

You know what's more interesting?

Ever since I play WoW (day 1 retail) I've been somewhat of a carebear. (ie. easy going, never frustrated, gieving hugs to everyone.) But since I started multiboxing, I've developped a more harsh, direct attitude ingame. Possible from the people being negative about multiboxing. But I lost my carebear stance in many situations and feel like I'm a lot sharper and to the point when it comes to generic things. xP

This is definitely true for me. I still consider myself a helpful and fun individual. But, you will need some serious counseling should you decide to flame me in a BG. :evil:

As for this topic, of which many opinions have been voiced, I'm all for some active moderation of new posts- the post should be deleted to avoid clutter, and a friendly PM sent informing them of forum guidelines (b/c they were obviously inept enough to not read them) and pointing to the wikisticki. A generic message would do. This would require active moderation, but I'm sure there would be many volunteers- self included. :)

[Ken]

As for this topic, of which many opinions have been voiced, I'm all for some active moderation of new posts- the post should be deleted to avoid clutter, and a friendly PM sent informing them of forum guidelines (b/c they were obviously inept enough to not read them) and pointing to the wikisticki. A generic message would do. This would require active moderation, but I'm sure there would be many volunteers- self included. :)
I completely agree. Troll-food should be stopped immediately. If topics don't meet a necessary minimum of quality, they should be closed with a small (and friendly!) mention of why they are closed. This is what happens on the more established forums too.

[Vyndree]

I imagine alot of the people you see only post once or twice realize there is no magic multi-boxing addon or software to let them do it and go back to what they were doing. If you can't read a few stickies this isn't really the hobby for you.basically...you'll see alot of people looking for something like an add-on called "multi-boxing" and think they are just going to plug and play. When that actually isn't how it goes at all.

But the WoWinsider interview said that we all use scripts.

Where do I download these magic scripts so I can push the magic IWIN button and get 2k+ arena ratings? ;)

[Ughmahedhurtz]

http://www.brainfuel.tv/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/nopony.jpgOK, now this was just completely uncalled-for. Harsh, man. Harsh.

[Eteocles]

The magic IWIN button is the "Trade" button when you give someone 600g for their 2k arena team ;)

The ironic part about that "addon button" was last night, I went into Redridge Inn to Take & Turn in the Dry Times Booze quest...female NE with her walk instead of run hotkey who apparently was RPing with a male NE at the table by the campfire goes "WTF????" and starts questioning me...asking "is that an addon? where can I download it?" at first lol

[NevadaGuy]

Yes I'm a newbie here.

Guess it all depends upon the purpose of these forums, are you here to promote and encourage multi-boxing or is this your own space that you would rather not have newcomers venture into?

As a newbie, these forums were and still are a bit confusing and daunting, Yes I read the wiki, stickies and everything else, but it is still confusing to a newcomer.

Some folks may only post once or twice then find the info they need and move on, I doubt every WoW multi-boxer hangs out here.

I did notice one new poster got flamed pretty hard by one of the oldies, to his credit he stuck around.

[Moxy]

I did notice one new poster got flamed pretty hard by one of the oldies, to his credit he stuck around.

There is a newbie forum. If you're going to ask newbie questions - you should probably post them there. If you post newbie questions in the general forum, prepare to get hammered. Otherwise it completely undermines the newbie forum. I won't hammer people in the newbie forums - thats why they exist.

Otherwise, why the hell do we have the newbie forum? So the polite people can use it, and the fuckwads can ignore it? Uh.. no.ROFL. This.



*edit* Though we probably should have a nice disclaimer before you post... :pinch:

[Ughmahedhurtz]

We do - Under "general forum" it says "NOT FOR SUPPORT". :)Man's got a point...

[NevadaGuy]

I did notice one new poster got flamed pretty hard by one of the oldies, to his credit he stuck around.

There is a newbie forum. If you're going to ask newbie questions - you should probably post them there. If you post newbie questions in the general forum, prepare to get hammered. Otherwise it completely undermines the newbie forum. I won't hammer people in the newbie forums - thats why they exist.

Otherwise, why the hell do we have the newbie forum? So the polite people can use it, and the fuckwads can ignore it? Uh.. no.



And where exacting does it say newbie forum? 8)



I thought NOT FOR SUPPORT addressed some sort of womens undergarments.

[Dorffo]

I have no issue with newbie questions getting slammed in the general forums. Obviously I am not exactly a super active poster, but I've been lurking for a good long while and it seems to me that taking 5-10 minutes to read through the forum titles and descriptions really isn't too much to ask of new visitors.

Plenty of people here have taken much of their own time to provide an incredibly comprehensive guide to all things multi-boxing. Anyone who just wanders in, clicks on the first forum link they see and post a question that has been covered over and over and over again without taking at least a few hours to dig through the wiki and older posts doesn't seem to me to be the type of person interested in engaging the community, but rather being handed a pre-packaged "multi-boxing for dummies" kit.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

I have no issue with newbie questions getting slammed in the general forums. Obviously I am not exactly a super active poster, but I've been lurking for a good long while and it seems to me that taking 5-10 minutes to read through the forum titles and descriptions really isn't too much to ask of new visitors.

Plenty of people here have taken much of their own time to provide an incredibly comprehensive guide to all things multi-boxing. Anyone who just wanders in, clicks on the first forum link they see and post a question that has been covered over and over and over again without taking at least a few hours to dig through the wiki and older posts doesn't seem to me to be the type of person interested in engaging the community, but rather being handed a pre-packaged "multi-boxing for dummies" kit./thread

[Gadaí]

Hrm - this is pretty much guaranteed to annoy at least some of the posters in this thread but a lot of the responses to this thread demonstrate a certain arrogance or elitist sentiment regarding this hobby. I've been playing multiple accounts in on-line games (where approved and appropriate) for about 15 years now, but it means nothing really. I don't know how to fix a car (which some of the new posters might be expert at) or how to balance my accounts (which I'm sure many reading this have no issues with) and if I went to a forum regarding either of those subjects to ask a question I'd appreciate a civil and helpful response - even if that response is that I should look at the Sticky regarding Common-law distribution of assets within Schedule (b) which has a complete explanation of how to deal with xyz. I would say that sometimes the responses to questions within the 'Newbie' section seem to be dealing much more with respondents self satisfaction regarding their knowledge rather then with the actual issue raised, in other cases the respondents will 'skim' the initial mail and assume that x question has been asked, offering the sage advice of 'read the stickie' when, in actuality, the post concerns a separate point or issue.

Don't get me wrong - in general the responses are helpful but sometimes the posters kick in with some snotty attitudes, which is a lot of the reason why I, personally, lurk a lot and comment infrequently.

<edit> Oh forgot: "FOR PONY!(Bonus points if you get the reference)" from the stunningly good LFG ('http://www.lfgcomic.com/') by Scott Sohmer - so looking forward to the film this summer :) If you like LFG btw it's well worth checking out Least I Could Do, his other comic.

[Majestic_Clown]

The attitude for the community should be to direct people to the wiki/stickies and state that they will have better luck posting in the correct forum.

Mods and Admins will be warning people when the thread becomes a "Your a noob read the sticks, troll troll troll, flame flame flame".

This has been on the increase and WE ARE WATCHING YOU!

I did an experiment with some friends who were looking to multibox and they found it a struggle so please go softy on new people.
I will be working on an Ultimate guide with images and everything to help people.

[diode]

This is only my (fourth? heh) post here, but I've been hiding in the bushes for a while. I really believe that you folks represent this community better than anyone else could, here and elsewhere. Keep it up :)







edited because i can't read or count

[Ken]

The attitude for the community should be to direct people to the wiki/stickies and state that they will have better luck posting in the correct forum.

Mods and Admins will be warning people when the thread becomes a "Your a noob read the sticks, troll troll troll, flame flame flame".

This has been on the increase and WE ARE WATCHING YOU!

I agree that trolling and flaming doesn't belong here, but I think we need stricter moderation also. These topics get flamed only because they are allowed to exist.


I did an experiment with some friends who were looking to multibox and they found it a struggle so please go softy on new people.
I will be working on an Ultimate guide with images and everything to help people.
In my opinion, starting to multibox IS a struggle. It's not easy, it's only that people expect it to be easy.

[Boylston]

Mods and Admins will be warning people when the thread becomes a "Your a noob read the sticks, troll troll troll, flame flame flame".

Wouldn't it be less work for the Mods and Admins to move the threads that are obviously hopefully incomplete questions and/or ignore easy-to-find information to a safer place? Hell, delete them and have the mods send a PM to the author with a boiler-plate (and nice) message that gives instructions on how to search the site, where the wiki is, etc.

These posts just drive down the signal-to-noise ratio and make it progressively harder for other folks to find what they want.

[Ken]

Wouldn't it be less work for the Mods and Admins to move the threads that are obviously hopefully incomplete questions and/or ignore easy-to-find information to a safer place? Hell, delete them and have the mods send a PM to the author with a boiler-plate (and nice) message that gives instructions on how to search the site, where the wiki is, etc.

These posts just drive down the signal-to-noise ratio and make it progressively ha

I think this is the best way to do it. Deleting threads is not a good idea though, but closing them with a standard message that states there isn't enough info in the post, then links to the forum guidelines, the forum search option and the wiki should suffice in 90% of all the cases.
Deleting wouldn't work, because ppl would just re-create their topics.

[Moxy]

Wouldn't it be less work for the Mods and Admins to move the threads that are obviously hopefully incomplete questions and/or ignore easy-to-find information to a safer place? Hell, delete them and have the mods send a PM to the author with a boiler-plate (and nice) message that gives instructions on how to search the site, where the wiki is, etc.

These posts just drive down the signal-to-noise ratio and make it progressively ha

I think this is the best way to do it. Deleting threads is not a good idea though, but closing them with a standard message that states there isn't enough info in the post, then links to the forum guidelines, the forum search option and the wiki should suffice in 90% of all the cases.
Deleting wouldn't work, because ppl would just re-create their topics.Unfortunately, you then clutter up your searches with dead threads. Far better to delete them, and give them a response to be specific and make sure to hunt for the info first.

oandbtwi'mbeingwatched. stalkers. ;(

[Boylston]

Hell, give me mod rights and I'll move threads to the newbie forums instead of hammering them. Yes, I'm volunteering to help clean up the mess.

I'd also volunteer to help move/sort out newbie posts.