Wow forums are blowing up again...this time it's win trading...

[Gadzooks]

Anyone here banned or had their S3 gear taken? :) Seems Bliz dropped the ban hammer HARD on Arena cheaters, and reports of entire guilds losing gear/accounts are coming out.

They are simply masochists - first they drop the bomb on RaidBois, now ArenaBois. I'm shocked the forums havent melted down today - it should get more fun once everyone logs in later and finds their gear gone.


Not me, my one 70 played on one team with some guildies for a week, and never got any S3 gear, and I know they don' win trade or sell or buy points and teams.

It was needed, arena was getting pointless unless you indulged. Go Bliz!

Belfaire is as usual pwning at will in the CS forums - I love that blue!

[Skuggomann]

Got link?

[moosejaw]

Got link?



http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=6417312923&sid=1

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=6417382755&sid=1



There are 2 posts for you.

[Vyndree]

Yea, we know a few friends who are up in a panic. There's talk about people who mass-sell arena teams for money (which is not against the rules, btw) are getting hit with the "exploitation of the economy" banstick, which I think is quite unreasonable given the amount of blue posts around that say that selling SPOTs/POINTs are ok (though wintrading is not).

Even moreso, I feel bad for the people who join teams that have been wintraded in the past without their knowledge, or who left a team that later was wintraded without them on it. Apparently these folks are getting hit with the banstick as well.

[Crayonbox]

Haha, Serves them right for win trading!

One of those guys got everything from season 1 through 3 taken away. ZING~!

[Ellay]

All the really big point sellers on my server got hit with it, at least it isn't a perma ban.

[Gadzooks]

Yea, we know a few friends who are up in a panic. There's talk about people who mass-sell arena teams for money (which is not against the rules, btw) are getting hit with the "exploitation of the economy" banstick, which I think is quite unreasonable given the amount of blue posts around that say that selling SPOTs/POINTs are ok (though wintrading is not).

Even moreso, I feel bad for the people who join teams that have been wintraded in the past without their knowledge, or who left a team that later was wintraded without them on it. Apparently these folks are getting hit with the banstick as well.I would agree about people who just bought a team that someone traded on in the past should not be banned, but they seem to be conducting a scorched-earth policy in regards to this issue - nuke 'em from orbit, it's the only way to know for sure. Then clean up in the CS forums for those unfairly accused - which has been happening.

Seems like they want to make all of it so toxic to be part of any aspects to it, so people will avoid it - and it'll probably work.

Could they have handled it better? Probably. This *is* Blizzard we're talking about.

[Crayonbox]

Scare tactics work fairly well. Just round 'em all up and nuke 'em all to kingdom come.

It's been working for them so far, don't see a reason for them to change their "make an example of a ton of people and hope they do it less" mentality.

[Eteocles]

Noooooo comment. Oh wait I just did...CRAP.

[Bigfish]

I wouldn't say its worth a permaban, but I would think the seriousness Blizz is putting in to the whole "e-sport" thing would be the writing on the wall to not screw with their system.

What I'm worried about, for all you people who know of Games Workshop, is that blizz will decide that they ARE the hobby, and start messing with things because they can.

[Vyndree]

Yea, we know a few friends who are up in a panic. There's talk about people who mass-sell arena teams for money (which is not against the rules, btw) are getting hit with the "exploitation of the economy" banstick, which I think is quite unreasonable given the amount of blue posts around that say that selling SPOTs/POINTs are ok (though wintrading is not).

Even moreso, I feel bad for the people who join teams that have been wintraded in the past without their knowledge, or who left a team that later was wintraded without them on it. Apparently these folks are getting hit with the banstick as well.I would agree about people who just bought a team that someone traded on in the past should not be banned...

Oh I should've probably elaborated on that point... I have a friend who was told by some random person to "hold on to" his team while he logged onto an alt. The guy never showed his face again. It was some scrub 1400's 2v2 team.

Who knows what was done to that team prior to my friend getting it? *shrug* We don't know, but we saw no harm in using it (months after the guy gave it to him) to get him a few points each week. He's really new to PvP, and we figured having it already at 1400's would help him get a bit more morale when he's first learning since we'd be fighting other scrub teams. Should he be banned for it? Probably not -- and, it should be noted, he hasn't yet. I'm just reading all of these stories about people who bought what they thought was a legitimately leveled team and then get the banstick months later... and I just hope that's not the case with my friend's "gifted" 2v2 team.

In any case, that was my point -- I totally agree that people buying knowingly win-traded teams are as bad as the people participating in the win-trading. I'm just sad to see so many reports of innocents who got caught in the crosshairs.

... of course, who is really innocent on the wowforums?

[Stealthy]

IMO - point selling is very similar to gold selling - they both entail people exploiting the system by taking short cuts to get the gear they want, whether it be S3 gear or an epic flying mount.

While I think Blizzard's approach is heavy handed, I can't say a feel any sympathy for those who had their gear taken away.

Cheers,
Stealthy

[Ellay]

Selling points on teams at the very peak on ratings was also very enticing for most who could do so or just smart enough to buy 2 teams themselves (you didn't even need to earn the rating yourself!). It is close to hitting an in-game lottery every week if there was one. If you had 2x 2200 rated 5v5 you could potentially sell 10 slots on each team every week for easily 1000g or more as the demand was huge.

So after win trading 2 teams for 1kg a slot, you'd net 20,000 gold in about an hours worth of work. Not to get too in depth but if you sold the gold (which some did) at $25 per thousand, your looking at $500 an hour real money. It didn't just stop there, this is a renewable source of income every week. With several players having at least 10 lvl 70's to hold teams and sell points it just got out of hand.
Which is what I believe pushed out the ban hammer.
I saw a link floating around of a guy openly selling about 80,000 gold a week and just unloading it. That's crazy stuffz!

[Eteocles]

Yeah and what good does all that gold do 'em? Epic flying mounts and that's about it really...maybe craft a piece of gear or two then it just kinda rots.

[Stealthy]

This post from Belfaire made me lol:



Belfaire

Blizzard Poster

Q u o t e:
I feel a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of win-traders suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced. I think something awesome has happened.
Ridin' out the season's end, they think to themselves "Welp, Season 4 is on its way and I'm free and clear"...

Oh, Account Administration and their terrible swift sword.





Great sense of humour and always tells it like it is - no wonder Belf's my fave CSF rep.

Cheers,
Stealthy

[Gadzooks]

Selling points on teams at the very peak on ratings was also very enticing for most who could do so or just smart enough to buy 2 teams themselves (you didn't even need to earn the rating yourself!). It is close to hitting an in-game lottery every week if there was one. If you had 2x 2200 rated 5v5 you could potentially sell 10 slots on each team every week for easily 1000g or more as the demand was huge.

So after win trading 2 teams for 1kg a slot, you'd net 20,000 gold in about an hours worth of work. Not to get too in depth but if you sold the gold (which some did) at $25 per thousand, your looking at $500 an hour real money. It didn't just stop there, this is a renewable source of income every week. With several players having at least 10 lvl 70's to hold teams and sell points it just got out of hand.
Which is what I believe pushed out the ban hammer.
I saw a link floating around of a guy openly selling about 80,000 gold a week and just unloading it. That's crazy stuffz!If someoneIf someone is selling gold, they had better be very careful about who they tell, and they better not be selling it themselves - it only takes one toon who's really a Bliz employee to get yourself sued. That kind of thing is VERY actionable, and we have no idea if they've gone after anyone for this before, or will in the future.

I'm curious what they would do to someone caught transferring gold to a know gold seller account, like one that belongs to IGE. Permaban, most likely, and block that credit card forever. You'd also be at risk of being included in any current or future legal issues with that seller.

Not a smart idea, in the long run. With the amount of data Bliz has on every toon, and my hunch that they are watching the movement of large amounts of gold...the people doing this are just dumb.

[Buzzatronic]

I find it hard to have any sympathy for people who try and circumvent the arena rating system regardless of their method. Anyone who didn't earn their points should have them removed and any gear purchased with them deleted. Looks like this is their first big step in that direction which makes me happy.

[Unholy[S]haman]

I'm still trying to figure this out.

Is arena point SELLING and BUYING legal? If you think about it, you join a team, you loose every game and so get kicked after 5-10 games and they make you pay them 500g because you lowered their rating:P

I can see how win trading is illegal but still. I think blizzard is taking this all a bit seriously. Its just a game and in my opinion, blizzard ruined a good game with arena, and now players are speaking up and ruining arena?

If blizzard is not clever enough to program random matching even if peak time arena takes a minute queue. Blizzard should just make it so that its hard to queue up against same teams over and over again. So say every minute or so blizzard chooses random team matching, not choose a pair as soon as a pair is found.

[Stealthy]

haman',index.php?page=Thread&postID=62827#post62827]I'm still trying to figure this out.

Is arena point SELLING and BUYING legal? If you think about it, you join a team, you loose every game and so get kicked after 5-10 games and they make you pay them 500g because you lowered their rating:P

I can see how win trading is illegal but still. I think blizzard is taking this all a bit seriously. Its just a game and in my opinion, blizzard ruined a good game with arena, and now players are speaking up and ruining arena?

If blizzard is not clever enough to program random matching even if peak time arena takes a minute queue. Blizzard should just make it so that its hard to queue up against same teams over and over again. So say every minute or so blizzard chooses random team matching, not choose a pair as soon as a pair is found.

These excerpts from teh rules were quoted by Reythur (Blue):

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:
Rules of Conduct.
As with all things, your use of the Program is governed by certain rules of conduct. These rules of conduct (the "Rules of Conduct"), maintained and enforced exclusively by Blizzard, must be adhered to by all users of the Service. It is your responsibility to know, understand and abide by these Rules of Conduct. The following rules are not meant to be exhaustive, and Blizzard reserves the right to determine which conduct it considers to be outside the spirit of the Game and to take such disciplinary measures as it sees fit up to and including termination and deletion of the Account. Blizzard reserves the right to modify these Rules of Conduct at any time.
(emphasis by Reythur)
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:
Rules Related to Game Play

Game play is what World of Warcraft is all about, and Blizzard strictly enforces the rules that govern game play. Blizzard considers most conduct to be part of the Game, and not harassment, so player-killing the enemies of your race and/or alliance, including gravestone and/or corpse camping, is considered a part of the Game. Because the Program is a "player vs. player" game, you should always remember to protect yourself in areas where the members of hostile races can attack you, rather than contacting Blizzard's in-game customer service representatives for help when you have been killed by an enemy of your race. Nonetheless, certain acts go beyond what is "fair" and are considered serious violations of these Terms of Use. Those acts include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following:

1. Using or exploiting errors in design, features which have not been documented, and/or "program bugs" to gain access that is otherwise not available, or to obtain a competitive advantage over other players;
2. Conduct prohibited by the EULA or these Terms of Use, including without limitation that conduct prohibited by Section 2(C); and
3. Anything that Blizzard considers contrary to the "essence" of the Program.
(emphasis by Reythur)
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:
Abuse of Game Mechanics

The distinction between exploiting bugs and abusing game mechanics is a fine one. While bug exploitation involves the abuse of what is essentially a programming mistake, the abuse of game mechanics is the act of taking advantage of the limitations of the World of Warcraft game systems. Since the line between the sanctioned use and the abuse of game mechanics is sometimes unclear, we prefer to educate players before taking any action against the account being used. This category includes using/distributing game mechanics in a manner unintended by their design that:

* Damages another character, their gameplay, the service itself and/or its economy

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Win trading was definitely against the ToS according to blizz, therefore no surprise here. Point selling (and buying) is a bit less clear since it was never announced as being against the ToS, but it seems fairly clear to me at least that falls under abuse of game mechanics - i.e. the Arena rating / point system was set up with the intention that players compete fairly against each other to earn ratings and points to give them access to better gear - buying/selling points circumvents this, and as a side effect ruins gameplay for those playing within the spirit of the Arena system. It's similiar to the time before AFK'ing was a reportable / bannable offense. Blizzard had said it wasn't specifically against the rules, even though most players felt it wasn't in the spirit of BG's. Then they finally brought down the banhammer on a bunch of AFK'ers and came out and said that it was no logner allowed.

My guess is Blizzard's philosophy is that they shouldn't have to make a ruling on every aspect of the game, that some actions should be self evidently against the spirit of the game. And that if it gets to the point where action has to be taken, it will be swift, brutal and without warning.

Belfaire stated in a post that more bans are coming too...this was just the first wave.

Cheers,
Stealthy

[glo]

This could have easily been done long ago. I personally think they have been watching and logging it all for awhile to make a nice algorithm to detect it in the future. I never considered win trading because of how extremely easy it is to look at those logs and see it, if you look at the arena logs it's impossible to miss.

[Maz]

This could have easily been done long ago.
Doing it right at the end of the season does up the lol-factor considerably :)

[Khayos]

I have an arena team with my rl m8, we are both rubbish @ pvp and i only wanted to do my ten games for the points to get the druid tanking items I needed. We've been in 2 teams, one i had was a 3v3 where a alt from our guild joined us and our 2v2, the 2v2 was given to me by someone shouting in chat that he had a arena team to give away, was only at 1500 rating so i took it. hope i dnt get the ban stick.

i do agree with the masses, win trading is pants and should be stopped and im also glad blizzard put the lol in by doing it at the end of the season.

[Havelcek]

Blizzard tends to use the "exploitation of the economy" as a blanket ban justification for things that aren't explicitly noted in the ToC. There is documented evidence on the eltiistjerks forums of folks who have been banned for cornering markets on the AH based on the same reason.

[Kyudo]

I personally applaud this stance from Blizz, too long in coming imo.

[Tonuss]

I would agree about people who just bought a team that someone traded on in the past should not be banned, but they seem to be conducting a scorched-earth policy in regards to this issue - nuke 'em from orbit, it's the only way to know for sure. Then clean up in the CS forums for those unfairly accused - which has been happening.Like you said, it could be their way of putting the fear'o'god into people who are even remotely linked to win-trading. Ban and strip a ton of people, and let the innocent use the account admin to fix them up. The problem for those people is that it can take a while to have it fixed, but chances are that most of them, if they stay, won't want to come within a mile of anything related to win-trading (and think about how many will also not want to buy or sell teams or points?).

Then again, when I see people posting on the forums that "people wouldn't HAVE to do this if Blizzard would just fix the broken game," I simply can't feel sorry for them. You're never FORCED to cheat. You CHOOSE to. Maybe if people played within the rules, the game wouldn't be broken! Sooo... here's your ban, have a nice day. If you come back, don't win-trade.

[Eteocles]

The people who claim to've gotten teams, ESPECIALLY lower ranked ones, almost deserve it...if the team was already at the base rank around 1500, why the fuck would you risk it on that instead of just buying a new one yourself? Just like boxers "inheriting" old accts that end up banned later, if you inherit a team it's gonna fuck you later. Arena Charters are piss cheap, especially with Sunwell Dailies now, anyone who buys or even takes a free low rank team is retarded to begin with.

Bottom line is to do shit right from the start so you don't have anything to worry about at all down the road. Arenas should be a competition for skill/bragging rights, not another damn gear-farming field for lazy bastards lol

[Boylston]

Wow...

This is really hitting them where it hurts. I hope I go up against some of these teams while they're naked.




Realm: Maiev
Character Name: Hosebeast
Account Action: 72 Hour Suspension
Offense: Arena Exploitation - Win Trading
Details: Player was verified to have been participating in the trade of Arena Team wins to artificially inflate their or another team’s Personal and Team Ratings.

Arena Currency Removed: 5000
Item(s) Removed:
Vengeful Gladiator's Spellblade
Vengeful Gladiator's Piercing Touch
Vengeful Gladiator's Grimoire
Vengeful Gladiator's Felweave Trousers
Vengeful Gladiator's Felweave Raiment
Vengeful Gladiator's Felweave Handguards
Vengeful Gladiator's Felweave Handguards
Vengeful Gladiator's Felweave Cowl
Vengeful Gladiator's Felweave Amice
Vengeful Gladiator's Dreadweave Robe
Vengeful Gladiator's Dreadweave Mantle
Vengeful Gladiator's Dreadweave Leggings
Vengeful Gladiator's Dreadweave Gloves
Vengeful Gladiator's Battle Staff

[The-Fallen-Frog]

I have never even played an Arena game, but im happy they take these kinds of action against exploiters :)

[Kaynin]

To be honest.

This is awesome! This might be the thing I was waiting for to happen in my battlegroup, where 5v5 is nothing -but- wintrading. Maybe I'll face teams that aren't in full vengeful now anymore, because blizz took it from them. <3

Serves cheaters right. Play it for the fun and the challenge, down with all wintraders. o/

[Eteocles]

I have arena'd, in all 3 settings...it's no fun having your face stomped in mercilessly by full S3 team/pointsellers at the BEGINNER ranks.

[Kaynin]

I have arena'd, in all 3 settings...it's no fun having your face stomped in mercilessly by full S3 team/pointsellers at the BEGINNER ranks.

Exactly. :D

[Vyndree]

haman',index.php?page=Thread&postID=62827#post62827]Is arena point SELLING and BUYING legal? If you think about it, you join a team, you loose every game and so get kicked after 5-10 games and they make you pay them 500g because you lowered their rating:P

Via http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=6417323236&pageNo=1&sid=1#3

While the two actions can indeed appear to coalesce, they are wholly different in one key point:

Selling points usually involves legitimately playing in the arena with a member of the team that joined through paying a team an 'entry fee'. It does not involve exploitation of the arena system by playing the same team over and over again — among other things — and purposely allowing someone to win against you, or using another team to boost your team's rating.

Can selling points lead to win-trading? Sure. Those that participate in win trading will be actioned accordingly.

Selling points is currently not against our policies, but please note that they are always subject to change.


Emphasis mine.



Keep in mind that the new patch will likely make point selling moot -- since, if your personal rating doesn't closely match the team's rating -- you'll only get points according to your personal rating.

[Fragmad]

I'm scared :E

I have actually bought points for my lock one week, from a team I know wintrades.

Even if I were totally unaffected, I have to say permanent ban is quite harsh. Personally I have nothing against wintraders, I don't care. But taking their gear/points/gold they've earned selling spots would be enough.

It is really nice however that arena will get more balanced from now on, on my bg 1500-1600 ppl will meat full venge teams all the time.

[Fragmad]

Doing it right at the end of the season does up the lol-factor considerably :) It's awesome, the "good" players will fall behind in beginning of S4, which they deserve.

[MrLonghair]

All the level 70 alliance in my battlegroup have S1 or better for pvp gear, and gear in general, many of them who have S3 don't even know how to mouse-turn. They don't even know how to win the 2.4 version of Alterac Valley. Their priests use fade in pvp, their warriors taunt, their hunters feign with their big red winterspring cats out. I'm happy to see this done but it is too late.

If you did not get into the arena in March-April of last year when it started you lost out. I'd rather have the old HWL grind, but with IP restriction on accounts so people could not get honorgrinders or afkbotting services for it. I'm happy, but it is a bit too late for me.

[kllrwlf]

LOL... I'm just looking for naked 70s in Shatt. :thumbsup:

[Xar]

I'm shocked that they finally took action on this. For me, arenas have been totally UN-FUN. On my priest, instagibbed by the other team and play in the arena had no bearing on my favorite spec, holy. I wasn't about to respec every week into a spec I don't like and was not familiar with. I always had fun playing BG's as holy though. On my lock the differential in resilience when I started arena (at the end of S2) was enough to make it unfun and when S3 hit it was even worse, even going into BG's started to suck hard until I finally got some nice pieces. I always wondered how it would be fair for all the cheaters to have the best gear and the rest of don't so I'm glad they are attempting to fix it even though some people will be caught up in it that shouldn't be. After a while I just stopped arena'ing altogether, I might even give arenas a try again on my lock after this wave of bans.

[kllrwlf]

The ban-hammer always seems to hit close to the end of the season.

For those that got their gear first, and then started win-trading to earn gold... got stripped of gear, points, temp or perma-banned
For those that got their gear from win-trading... got stripped of gear, points, temp or perma-banned.
For those that bought points from win-trading peeps, got stripped of gear, points, temp or perma-banned.

Remember at the close to the end of S1, the top 5% (or whatever it was), was going to get flown somewhere by Blizz. After Blizz started looking at the account names and started banning those that bought those accounts (account sharing).

Personally, I just feel slightly bad for the point-buyers, as point-buying isn't against the TOS... but got the hammer based on association.

Almost reminds me of the mass ban-hammer that occurred with gold-buyers a couple of years ago.

Either way, it goes to show that it's generally a better idea to go the clean route and go slow, compared to the fast (and slightly fishy) route and face a possible ban.

[Tonuss]

I suspect that a fresh wave of AFKer bans is going to follow soon, and that should lead to another round of entertaining threads in the forums.

[Buzzatronic]

Personally, I just feel slightly bad for the point-buyers, as point-buying isn't against the TOS... but got the hammer based on association.

I don't feel bad for them in the slightest. They wanted a shortcut to gaining gear/points rather than doing it legitimately and shortcuts always have risk.

It's not hard to figure out that by buying points/teams, you're only encouraging the sellers to get more "product" as quick as possible. Just like buying gold makes the gold sellers want to hack accounts and exploit the game to get the most amount of product with the least amount of effort.

Buying points/teams is exploiting the arena system and most certainly not within the spirit of fair competition ... why would anyone expect that those who partake in offering such services would abide by all the other rules of the game like not win-trading?

[Vyndree]

Personally, I just feel slightly bad for the point-buyers, as point-buying isn't against the TOS... but got the hammer based on association.
I don't feel bad for them in the slightest. They wanted a shortcut to gaining gear/points rather than doing it legitimately and shortcuts always have risk.


It's akin of buying a really sweet deal on the AH, except whoever posted that sweet deal really botted to get the item, and now you got a nice hefty 72 hour ban and the item taken away from you for botting. Oh, and all the other items you purchased from the auction house that month (since you were "clearly" participating in botting and economy exploitation) are taken away too as an extra measure, regardless of whether or not those items gained were legitimate.

Buying teams was confirmed legitimate by blizzard representatives (I believe I already linked that response), but what the team buyers didn't know is that they'd get slammed if the people they bought from wintraded in the past. Which, really, is something you can't really verify prior to purchase.

The buyers shouldn't be penalized for something they took no part in -- if they bought a team, play the games LEGITIMATELY, and win/lose according to their own skill... then they shouldn't be looking at a 72 hour ban + all gear removed... for the entire SEASON.

[Boylston]

Tons of these problems go away when there is a 1-month cooldown on joining a team after having left one. Hell, maybe just even a 2-week cooldown.

[Buzzatronic]

It's akin of buying a really sweet deal on the AH, except whoever posted that sweet deal really botted to get the item, and now you got a nice hefty 72 hour ban and the item taken away from you for botting.

Not really the same thing but I think you know that already. :)


The buyers shouldn't be penalized for something they took no part in -- if they bought a team, play the games LEGITIMATELY, and win/lose according to their own skill... then they shouldn't be looking at a 72 hour ban + all gear removed... for the entire SEASON.

I'm sorry but in my oh so humble opinion, there is nothing "legitimate" about buying a highly ranked team, then playing the minimum amount of games per week to leech as many arena points (resulting in gear) as possible from the purchased ranking before the team rating "rights" itself based on the skill of the players on that team.

Regardless of whether blizzard says it's ban-able, it's certainly not legitimate in my opinion which is why I have little sympathy for those caught up in the fact that it would seem such activities breed cheaters who wish to maximize their own profits.

I think with the changes coming in 2.4.2 it could be assumed that Blizzard doesn't find points gained in such a way "legitimate" either, even if the practice of getting points in such a way is not a ban-able offense.

Again, this is all my opinion ... feel free to have your own. :)

[Eteocles]

if they bought a team, play the games LEGITIMATELY, and win/lose according to their own skillApply this to pve: Someone buys a lv30 and runs Gnomer, according to his(complete lack of) skill; wipes horribly. Gets nothing. Someone buys a lv60 char they have no prior experience playing; runs ramparts according to his skill; dies/wipes, group disbands, gets nothing. Now I'm not saying it's akin to buying chars(not at all), just the first closest example I could think of :p And it's a discussion, not intended as a flame or heated argument lol; personally I believe it boils down to starting off ahead of where you should be, skipping the "boring" early work and ending up with an achievement you didn't earn/don't own. But, that's just what I think and Blizzard has no issue with it(beyond the mass bannings they're doing to those related to win trading which is a different thing we all agree on) so more power to 'em if they want to pay to play the game literally instead of figuratively.

$15/mth to play
500g/week for points where they mostly lose(also feeding undeserving teams at higher lvls)
Watching people get bored when they have everything near-instantly with no work, thus complaining Blizz doesn't give them enough content: Priceless. :P

[Vyndree]

I'm sorry but in my oh so humble opinion, there is nothing "legitimate" about buying a highly ranked team, then playing the minimum amount of games per week to leech as many arena points (resulting in gear) as possible from the purchased ranking before the team rating "rights" itself based on the skill of the players on that team.

That's opinion.

How many games do you think it would take for a 1400's SKILL team to tank a 2k RATED team? ;) They very quickly go where they belong -- so, in essence, they can pay an exorbant amount of money to buy a new team each week, or get their buddies to help them relevel their ratings back up so they oh-just-might-maybe not fail so miserably the next week?

2k rating purchased team comes up against a 1600's team and fails? How many points do you think they'll lose? ;)

In this way, I think it's fair. If they want to spend their money on a higher rated team just so they can tank the ratings each week and maybe come out a few points further than they would have in the 1300's bracket, it's their money. If they deserve to lose, they will.


Regardless of whether blizzard says it's ban-able, it's certainly not legitimate in my opinion which is why I have little sympathy for those caught up in the fact that it would seem such activities breed cheaters who wish to maximize their own profits.

This reminds me of... "I don't care if Blizzard says it's ok... multiboxing is cheating"

There is some hurt involved, and I agree. However, I'm hesitant to say that it will go away in 2.4. 2k rated teams are still going to re-make teams and end up with a brand new 1500's rated team that they have to level back up into their appropriate bracket. It's a problem, for sure -- but banning people for wanting to get the most points per week in a LEGITIMATE fashion isn't the right way to do it.


I think with the changes coming in 2.4.2 it could be assumed that Blizzard doesn't find points gained in such a way "legitimate" either, even if the practice of getting points in such a way is not a ban-able offense.

We'll see when the new rules come out, but as of right now...

Selling points is currently not against our policies, but please note that they are always subject to change.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=6417323236&pageNo=1&sid=1#3

Lynching a person when, as of right now, they are doing nothing wrong... That's just rather reminiscent of the behavior that we find so offensive from the "lol multibox is teh cheatzor" crowd.


Again, this is all my opinion ... feel free to have your own. :)

*nodnods* I do.

[Dawnstone]

I'm on the fence when it comes to this topic. I mainly PvE, with a splash of PvP rarely (about as often as I play other video games). Both sides have their points, but this whole ban-stick topic makes me wonder what stops Blizzard from doing the same to multiboxing PvP or multiboxing WoW in general. Sure, they currently say its ok... but they can reverse it (Forum QQ = Blizzard action?).

As far as Arena goes, I imagine a lot of folks who got hit with the ban stick are just canceling their account and waiting for newer games (Warham, Conan, etc). I know if my 70's got their gear stripped to nothing and suspended by Blizz I'd shut down all my accounts and move on.

[Vyndree]

Someone buys a lv60 char they have no prior experience playing; runs ramparts according to his skill; dies/wipes, group disbands, gets nothing. Now I'm not saying it's akin to buying chars(not at all), just the first closest example I could think of :p

That's exactly what I was getting at, Eteocles. :) Thanks.

Basically a sucky player will continue to suck on a purchased team, and the more they suck the faster the ratings will tank.

Now if they suck and WIN-TRADE to get around their natural level of suck to get more points then they should... Different story.

[Eteocles]

What I was getting at though is that they should suck their way to that point, not tele-suck to a future point ;p

OH GOD THE INNUENDOS

[Buzzatronic]

That's opinion.
Exactly but more specifically, it's my "oh so humble opinion" as I originally stated. :)


How many games do you think it would take for a 1400's SKILL team to tank a 2k RATED team? ;)
It's hard to know for sure but if you make the assumption that the purchased team is always facing a team of the same rating, then they'll lose 16 points per game or 160 points per week if they lose their minimum 10 games. That would take 'em a few weeks to drop back down to the ~1400 range. In that time they've gained 822 points at the end of the first week (rating now 1840), 548 points at the end of the second week (rating now 1680), and 366 points at the end of the third week (rating now 1520). That's 1736 points "purchased" in 3 weeks assuming they lose 30 games in a row and never lose to higher ranked teams (meaning they lose less points).

At this point they buy another 2K team and start the 3 week cycle all over again with the money they grinded out from dailies since they didn't have to spend much time in the Arena since they already bought their points. :)


They very quickly go where they belong -- so, in essence, they can pay an exorbant amount of money to buy a new team each week, or get their buddies to help them relevel their ratings back up so they oh-just-might-maybe not fail so miserably the next week?

Teams don't drop from 2K to 1400 in a week unless they are dumb enough to play more than 10 games (losing them all), it's more like 3 which can earn a 5v5 team a considerable amount of purchased arena points.


2k rating purchased team comes up against a 1600's team and fails? How many points do you think they'll lose? ;)

In 5v5 they'll lose 29.09 points in a 2000 vs 1600 game. Worst possible loss of points per game is 32 so if they buy a 2K team they'll lose a maximum of 320 points per week unless they are dumb enough to play more than 10 games. :) So instead of it taking 3-4 weeks to get back down to 1400, it'll take 2. Meanwhile they are still "earning" points they aren't earning at all, but instead purchased.


In this way, I think it's fair. If they want to spend their money on a higher rated team just so they can tank the ratings each week and maybe come out a few points further than they would have in the 1300's bracket, it's their money. If they deserve to lose, they will.

The same can be said for people who buy gold .. it's their money, but what happens when it breaks the whole environment? Also it's much more than "a few points" better than 1300's teams.

Also teams have to be built from 1500 to be sold which means there is a lot of 2K+ skilled players in the 1500-2000 brackets to "farm" their teams up with their full S3 gear, just so they can sell the team. How is that fair to the "legitimate" teams trying to actually compete at the ~1650 rating becuase that's where their skill level puts them? It's not and if battlegrounds has tought us anything, being rolled and honor/points farmed is not fun at all and that's what team selling creates, a system where the "legitimate" teams are farmed for the purposes of leveling up a team to sell to others.


This reminds me of... "I don't care if Blizzard says it's ok... multiboxing is cheating"

Just like buying a spot in a BT raid doesn't make the gear you got from it "legitimate", so does buying points/teams does not make the gear that results "legitimate".

The problem is people use the PvP gear gained from buying points/teams to hinder others in PvP (since gear still matters as much if not more than skill these days), while the BT epics someone rocks out in Shatt doesn't hurt others enjoyment of the game in the slightest.


There is some hurt involved, and I agree. However, I'm hesitant to say that it will go away in 2.4. 2k rated teams are still going to re-make teams and end up with a brand new 1500's rated team that they have to level back up into their appropriate bracket.

But it'll be much harder for people to do this since when they remake a 1500 team after selling their previous 2K team, that 1500 team will be matched against other 2K teams right away since the personal rating of the people who leveled up the first team to sell is still 2K. Leveling up multiple teams each week just to sell will become exponentially harder due to the personal ratings change.


It's a problem, for sure -- but banning people for wanting to get the most points per week in a LEGITIMATE fashion isn't the right way to do it.

You feel purchased points are legitimate, I do not. We will agree to disagree on this one. :)

Also if it's "a problem, for sure" and people exploit that problem for their own gain, doesn't that fall under the TOS guidelines of not exploiting a flaw in the game's design? :)

[Qlimax]

what stops Blizzard from doing the same to multiboxing PvP or multiboxing WoW in general. Sure, they currently say its ok... but they can reverse it (Forum QQ = Blizzard action?).

I am worried about the same, but there is nothing we can do but just continue to have fun m-boxing =). Its a beautiful sport is it not =P.

I think due to the ammount of posts approving of it may be a notifier that this will not happen, but there is always a possibility.



Qlimax

[Jaws5]

I was under the impression that blizzard owned all items in wow. So how can someone sell somethng that is wow based and not on the wrong side of the line. Is my logic off base? I'm assuming they paid real money for these points and not gold.

[yarr]

Hm this is an interesting development.

Im glad they are taking action against cheaters, but im one of the "Too Late" camp, I think if they were going to take action on this, they should have started early. If they had stamped it out early, it would have never become as widespread as it is now, and all this "economic exploitation" and what not would never have occurred. Also would have been less "bystanders".

But yeah, all these cheater tears are pretty refreshing. =P

[Sun]

Selling points on teams at the very peak on ratings was also very enticing for most who could do so or just smart enough to buy 2 teams themselves (you didn't even need to earn the rating yourself!). It is close to hitting an in-game lottery every week if there was one. If you had 2x 2200 rated 5v5 you could potentially sell 10 slots on each team every week for easily 1000g or more as the demand was huge.

So after win trading 2 teams for 1kg a slot, you'd net 20,000 gold in about an hours worth of work. Not to get too in depth but if you sold the gold (which some did) at $25 per thousand, your looking at $500 an hour real money. It didn't just stop there, this is a renewable source of income every week. With several players having at least 10 lvl 70's to hold teams and sell points it just got out of hand.
Which is what I believe pushed out the ban hammer.
I saw a link floating around of a guy openly selling about 80,000 gold a week and just unloading it. That's crazy stuffz!If someoneIf someone is selling gold, they had better be very careful about who they tell, and they better not be selling it themselves - it only takes one toon who's really a Bliz employee to get yourself sued. That kind of thing is VERY actionable, and we have no idea if they've gone after anyone for this before, or will in the future.

I'm curious what they would do to someone caught transferring gold to a know gold seller account, like one that belongs to IGE. Permaban, most likely, and block that credit card forever. You'd also be at risk of being included in any current or future legal issues with that seller.

Not a smart idea, in the long run. With the amount of data Bliz has on every toon, and my hunch that they are watching the movement of large amounts of gold...the people doing this are just dumb.I guess you dont remember the website/freeserver Blizz shut down many years ago. I actually had a link on my PC back in the days after the Beta testing. Blizz sued and won and shut down the website and and feds broke down the door of the location and consficated all the equipment on the premises.

DO NOT MESS WITH BLIZZ !!! they do go after you.

[yarr]

I saw someone on one of the threads in CS say that they are rolling out the S4 points-gain changes (i.e. to prevent points selling, the whole Personal rating requirement within 150 of team rating in order to get points) this tuesday. Can anyone confirm or deny this? It would make sense that they are doing it now, right after cracking down on team-sellers.

Wonder if there are any blue posts on the topic.

[Tdog]

Sigh... We really getting into this whole team-selling right or wrong arguement again? What's this make? 4th thread since I joined only a couple of months ago? :huh:

[yarr]

A marriage should be between a man and a ...

A woman shouldn't be able to abort her...

Oh wait. Team-selling. Right...

Just one of those moral questions that no one will ever agree on.

[Zaelar]

People shouldn't power level. You should have to kill mobs yourself. Anyone who had a 70 power level you should be set back to level 1 and lose all their items and gold, even if it was just to help with one instance or quest. Perma-ban for the leveler if the 70 ever cheated. They ban people who buy characters and this is clearly the same thing.

Ban all auction house users. You should have to kill mobs yourself to get loot. I don't care what blizzard says, buying items is cheating. This is clearly the same as buying gold.

Someone get that multibox qq checklist and rename it for arenas. See how many you can find in this thread.

And this has nothing to do with morals. It has to do with what is cheating and what isn't cheating. Buying an arena team or a spot on an arena team was confirmed to be not cheating and should be treated as such.

[Moxy]

People shouldn't power level. You should have to kill mobs yourself. Anyone who had a 70 power level you should be set back to level 1 and lose all their items and gold, even if it was just to help with one instance or quest. Perma-ban for the leveler if the 70 ever cheated. They ban people who buy characters and this is clearly the same thing.

Ban all auction house users. You should have to kill mobs yourself to get loot. I don't care what blizzard says, buying items is cheating. This is clearly the same as buying gold.

Someone get that multibox qq checklist and rename it for arenas. See how many you can find in this thread.

And this has nothing to do with morals. It has to do with what is cheating and what isn't cheating. Buying an arena team or a spot on an arena team was confirmed to be not cheating and should be treated as such.So what was your point? I lost it in your epic exaggeration. I'm hoping it was 'cheaters deserve teh ban.'

[Eteocles]

That quote is just trying to turn "Playing with friends" into "Zomg skip content"; if it's a NEW player being skipped, then yes it's bad and they should experience it first. If it's someone like us who've been playing since launch, fuck doing the westfall series for the 56th time :p In cases like that, I know my class, I know the game.

The problem with Arenas is the gear. The gear was designed with the original intent to fortify those who've proven themselves at least competant or downright "good", who DO well enough to afford it. Half the people who had it didn't DO anything. In the Raid spot buying example, there's still a difference between going and knowing what to do/how to help and actually contributing, and just going and kinda watching like a dumbass then looting and bragging later.

The Arenas should simply be for bragging rights and seeing who's the best, that's the whole point of the silly duels, but everyone's turned it into "HAY FREE GEAR LETS GO"; they should rename it if it's not going to be what Arenas are supposed to be; fights to death to see the victor, to whom go the spoils, not "Every civilian/non-Gladiator retard and his brother jumps around the ranks and gets special gladiator gear from the Emperor himself"

TL;DR: The idea of Arenas wasn't a bad one; the problem is noone else ingame gives 2 shits and just wants more purplez so their e-peen is the same size as everyone else's.

And the key flaw in that argument regarding it not being cheating, while true, Blizzard said they don't/won't specifically support it, and their actions(the banninations and adding requirements to the gear to keep scrubs who don't deserve it out of it) paint not-quite-opposite, but still not particularly "HAY GUYZ ITS AWWWWWWRIGHT" pictures :p

[Buzzatronic]

Different opinions are different, so I'll end with this. :)

If there was nothing wrong in Blizzard's eyes with points/team selling, then they wouldn't be making so many changes to make it much more difficult in today's patch.

We can argue all day about the semantics of what's a ban-able offense and what is not, but the fact remains that Blizzard is making changes to make it much more difficult or next to impossible to effectively buy arena points or teams.

In my opinion, that means they want to actively discourage the practice and since they made the game and the rules, I'll also assume that means they feel is it not a legitimate way to progress through PvP content (just as when they make changes to instances that previously allowed people to bypass PvE content in certain ways. It wasn't ban-able, but it was fixed because it also wasn't legitimate progression.)

[Sanctume]

PvP Arenas If a character’s personal rating is more than 150 points below the team rating, they will earn points based on their personal rating instead of the team rating. If the average personal rating of the players queuing for a game is more than 150 points below the team’s rating, the team will be queued against an opponent matching or similar to the average personal rating.The 150 points difference from the Personal Rating (PR) and Team Rating (TR) would seem to curb point selling in this patch 2.4.2.

Scenario 1:

Suppose a Player_A & Player_B buys a Team_Uber with 2000 TR, Both Player_A and Player_B have 1500 PR.
They run 10 games, losing 10 games match versus 2000 rated teams at a loss of 16 points a game.
At the end of the week, Team_Uber is 1840 TR, but Player_A and Player_B's PR dropped down say 1 point each game to 1484.
According the patch 2.4.2, Plater_A and Player_B's 1500 PR is more than 150 points below 2000 TR; therefore they will only earn points based on 1484 rating?

Scenario 2:

Suppose Player_A is a new 70 with no pvp gear, joins with Player_X and Player_Y both with full S3 gear at 2000 PR. Their Team_Carry is 1500 TR.
They queue, with the average rating of (5500/3) = 1833. This is what's referred to as 2.5 versus 3 arena match.
Team_Carry can still win versus 1833 rated teams (no S3 weapons/shoulders)--those struggling to get 1850; those non-cookie cutter teams?

Team_Carry will gain more than 15 points per game since they start at 1500 and fighting 1830 teams. I think the point gain is around 27 based on the chess tournament formula.
And Player_A will probably as much PR also.

So let's say an average of 20 points gain per game. After 10 games, Team_Carry is at 1700 with Player_A at 1700 PR also?
With the PR rating required to get S4 arena gear, and S4 honor gear, carrying someone to 1700 PR seems quite profitable for 2 players.

With the amount of gold one gets doing 25 daily quest. But let say one does the Island, and a few SSO pack quests. Thats about 200 gold a day from daily quests, do it 5x a week and the player has 1000g to offer to be carried weekly for arena points.

[Eteocles]

Scenario 1: Yes.
Scenario 2: Points earned based on Player's Personal Rating; will not factor team or teammates' rating. Uber Teammates get huge points, newbie 70 gets poop points and probably causes losses due to one member not being worth shit vs 3 REAL pvpers

[efwee]

Probably a bit against the popular opinion, but as long as you face full s3 teams at 1500 rating, I couldn't care less about wintrading.

[Suvega]

But it'll be much harder for people to do this since when they remake a 1500 team after selling their previous 2K team, that 1500 team will be matched against other 2K teams right away since the personal rating of the people who leveled up the first team to sell is still 2K. Leveling up multiple teams each week just to sell will become exponentially harder due to the personal ratings change.

This is not true. When you create a new team, everyone's personal ratings start at 1500 along with the team. Personal ratings are tied to teams, If I leave a 2k team, and join another one, then my personal rating for the new team is 1500 as well.

creating new teams and lvling to 2k, is going to be just as easy.

[Suvega]

PvP Arenas If a character’s personal rating is more than 150 points below the team rating, they will earn points based on their personal rating instead of the team rating. If the average personal rating of the players queuing for a game is more than 150 points below the team’s rating, the team will be queued against an opponent matching or similar to the average personal rating.The 150 points difference from the Personal Rating (PR) and Team Rating (TR) would seem to curb point selling in this patch 2.4.2.

Scenario 1:

Suppose a Player_A & Player_B buys a Team_Uber with 2000 TR, Both Player_A and Player_B have 1500 PR.
They run 10 games, losing 10 games match versus 2000 rated teams at a loss of 16 points a game.
At the end of the week, Team_Uber is 1840 TR, but Player_A and Player_B's PR dropped down say 1 point each game to 1484.
According the patch 2.4.2, Plater_A and Player_B's 1500 PR is more than 150 points below 2000 TR; therefore they will only earn points based on 1484 rating?

Scenario 2:

Suppose Player_A is a new 70 with no pvp gear, joins with Player_X and Player_Y both with full S3 gear at 2000 PR. Their Team_Carry is 1500 TR.
They queue, with the average rating of (5500/3) = 1833. This is what's referred to as 2.5 versus 3 arena match.
Team_Carry can still win versus 1833 rated teams (no S3 weapons/shoulders)--those struggling to get 1850; those non-cookie cutter teams?

Team_Carry will gain more than 15 points per game since they start at 1500 and fighting 1830 teams. I think the point gain is around 27 based on the chess tournament formula.
And Player_A will probably as much PR also.

So let's say an average of 20 points gain per game. After 10 games, Team_Carry is at 1700 with Player_A at 1700 PR also?
With the PR rating required to get S4 arena gear, and S4 honor gear, carrying someone to 1700 PR seems quite profitable for 2 players.

With the amount of gold one gets doing 25 daily quest. But let say one does the Island, and a few SSO pack quests. Thats about 200 gold a day from daily quests, do it 5x a week and the player has 1000g to offer to be carried weekly for arena points.

Scenario 1 = correct
Scneario 2 = not correct.

When they create teh team, everyone's personal rating is at 1500. Thus you can completly carry a 3rd unskilled person as long as they are in the games winning with you.

Everyone forgets that everytime you change a team, your personal rating resets to 1500.

[Zaelar]

So what was your point? I lost it in your epic exaggeration. I'm hoping it was 'cheaters deserve teh ban.'
I wasn't exaggerating, I was copying ideas and applied them to a different area to create sarcasm. The point wasn't that cheaters deserve to be banned, but that people who don't cheat don't deserve to be banned and that only blizzard gets to decide what is cheating and what isn't.


Hunters

* Boar Charge: This ability will no longer make Growl cast immediately after it generates excessive threat.
* The pet ability Growl will no longer scale with pet Attack Power.

Obviously blizzard is not ok with people using growl so they are nerfing it. They should just ban hunters that have pets with growl. I don't see any blue posts that specifically say that having a pet with growl isn't a banable offense.

[Buzzatronic]

Everyone forgets that everytime you change a team, your personal rating resets to 1500.

Ahh yep, that's correct ... so the 5/5 S3 rolling of nubs in the 1500 bracket will continue for the sake of team selling. *sigh*.

[Buzzatronic]

Obviously blizzard is not ok with people using growl so they are nerfing it. They should just ban hunters that have pets with growl. I don't see any blue posts that specifically say that having a pet with growl isn't a banable offense.

Once "Sell arena team" and "Buy arena points" become trainable skills put in the game by Blizzard then changed/tweaked, then I'll agree with your comparison. Until then you're just being silly for the sake of being silly.

[Evol]

PvP Arenas If a character’s personal rating is more than 150 points below the team rating, they will earn points based on their personal rating instead of the team rating. If the average personal rating of the players queuing for a game is more than 150 points below the team’s rating, the team will be queued against an opponent matching or similar to the average personal rating.The 150 points difference from the Personal Rating (PR) and Team Rating (TR) would seem to curb point selling in this patch 2.4.2.

Scenario 1:

Suppose a Player_A & Player_B buys a Team_Uber with 2000 TR, Both Player_A and Player_B have 1500 PR.
They run 10 games, losing 10 games match versus 2000 rated teams at a loss of 16 points a game.
At the end of the week, Team_Uber is 1840 TR, but Player_A and Player_B's PR dropped down say 1 point each game to 1484.
According the patch 2.4.2, Plater_A and Player_B's 1500 PR is more than 150 points below 2000 TR; therefore they will only earn points based on 1484 rating?

Scenario 2:

Suppose Player_A is a new 70 with no pvp gear, joins with Player_X and Player_Y both with full S3 gear at 2000 PR. Their Team_Carry is 1500 TR.
They queue, with the average rating of (5500/3) = 1833. This is what's referred to as 2.5 versus 3 arena match.
Team_Carry can still win versus 1833 rated teams (no S3 weapons/shoulders)--those struggling to get 1850; those non-cookie cutter teams?

Team_Carry will gain more than 15 points per game since they start at 1500 and fighting 1830 teams. I think the point gain is around 27 based on the chess tournament formula.
And Player_A will probably as much PR also.

So let's say an average of 20 points gain per game. After 10 games, Team_Carry is at 1700 with Player_A at 1700 PR also?
With the PR rating required to get S4 arena gear, and S4 honor gear, carrying someone to 1700 PR seems quite profitable for 2 players.

With the amount of gold one gets doing 25 daily quest. But let say one does the Island, and a few SSO pack quests. Thats about 200 gold a day from daily quests, do it 5x a week and the player has 1000g to offer to be carried weekly for arena points.

I believe that with scenario 1, the average personal rating is 1500, so they will be matched against 1500 rated teams (not 2k). Their personal rating will drop average of 16 per loss, but the team rating will plummet completely if they lose all 10. Though they might not lose all ten since they are matched against 1500 teams. Thing is, there's no real benefit to buying the team UNLESS they are good players that can get themselves up to 2k anyway. That way, they will get to 2k faster, since it will take less games to get their personal rating to within 150 points of the team rating. But selling teams to people that could just as well get the teams to that rating anyway probably isn't a lucrative business.

[Zaelar]

Once "Sell arena team" and "Buy arena points" become trainable skills put in the game by Blizzard then changed/tweaked, then I'll agree with your comparison. Until then you're just being silly for the sake of being silly.

Once "Invite level 70 to low level instance" and "Buy experience points" become trainable skills then I'll agree with your agreeal. Until then, you're just QQing about using in game currency to buy in game services from other players.

[Eteocles]

So what was your point? I lost it in your epic exaggeration. I'm hoping it was 'cheaters deserve teh ban.'
I wasn't exaggerating, I was copying ideas and applied them to a different area to create sarcasm. The point wasn't that cheaters deserve to be banned, but that people who don't cheat don't deserve to be banned and that only blizzard gets to decide what is cheating and what isn't.


Hunters

* Boar Charge: This ability will no longer make Growl cast immediately after it generates excessive threat.
* The pet ability Growl will no longer scale with pet Attack Power.

Obviously blizzard is not ok with people using growl so they are nerfing it. They should just ban hunters that have pets with growl. I don't see any blue posts that specifically say that having a pet with growl isn't a banable offense.

You're comparing a Bug Fix(I know from experience that Boars were doing too much aggro for a long time) with that? That's just reaching for straws man, let it go :p

Also, you realize the post above this one is describing what powerlvling services do too, right? :p Using an illegal example to make yours sound legit doesn't quite work lol

[Zaelar]

Also, you realize the post above this one is describing what powerlvling services do too, right? :p Using an illegal example to make yours sound legit doesn't quite work lol

The post above this had nothing illegal about it. I imagine you're talking about:



if they bought a team, play the games LEGITIMATELY, and win/lose according to their own skillApply this to pve: Someone buys a lv30 and runs Gnomer, according to his(complete lack of) skill; wipes horribly. Gets nothing. Someone buys a lv60 char they have no prior experience playing; runs ramparts according to his skill; dies/wipes, group disbands, gets nothing. Now I'm not saying it's akin to buying chars(not at all), just the first closest example I could think of :p...

You're the only one talking about the illegal act of buying with money and not buying with legitimate in game gold. Using an illegal example to make something legit sound illegal doesn't quote work.

[pinotnoir]

Here is an idea.. If they just made personal ratings stick and not reset there may be a way to fix everything.

So if I had a 2v2 and my partner and I had a 2000 personal rating it would be perma rating. What they can do is make the team rating the avg of all players personal rating. If you win games your rating goes up thus making your team rating rise. If you leave a team and join a new one you keep your rating. The new team will be the avg personal rating of its members.

This would stop several side effects of the current rating system.

First, it would keep highly rated players playing matches with equal rated players. No more low level players going up against full s3 geared players farming gold. Second, it would keep 2000+ teams from selling and restarting new teams to farm gold. Third, it would keep people from buying arena gear who did not work to earn it. I think buying a 2000+ team is cheating the system. There are many arguments to this and some I agree with. For example, you have to allow teams to add players. With personal ratings that reset to 1500 this causes the problem.

Blizzard has to do something to the people exploiting the system. I am sure their response is not 100% accurate. Some people are getting nailed who should not be. Hopefully those people can get things worked out. At this point of my wow playing I have little interest in arena. Its just a circle jerk of the same a holes. At least they put the past season on honor vendors. It gives people a fighting chance to compete in arena. As you all know the guys who are in full S3 gear will then use that Uber gear to be right back into full S4 gear. Skill helps but the majority of why the same people get geared up again is due to their items. New players fighting their way in the 1400-1800 bracket have a huge up hill fight in order to equal the gear of players who have started S1. I speak from experience when, months ago, my full S1 lock was trying to play games with a new team and losing to full S3 guys. It really sucks losing 16 points a game to some douche bags in full S3 and weapons who are farming gold.

If they made the change above that should solve some problems. I am not sure exactly what the new change has done because my desire to arena is very low. PVE is the only thing keeping me playing right now. I may farm the S2 gear just to do more dps in PVE. Battlegrounds are so boring to me. Playing the same boring battlegrounds over and over that you have played for a few years is not fun. If it was not for multiboxing pve I would quit WoW.

[Buzzatronic]

Once "Invite level 70 to low level instance" and "Buy experience points" become trainable skills then I'll agree with your agreeal. Until then, you're just QQing about using in game currency to buy in game services from other players.

I see, so either everything is cheating and not within the 'spirit' of the rules or the game or none of it is. Glad everything is so black and white in your world.

For me I see a very distinct difference between something like power leveling a solo character from 0-70 in less than 24 hours /played and circumventing a points and gear distribution system which gives an illegitimate game play advantage to people in the only person vs. person competitive aspect of this game.

Someone power leveling does nothing to my enjoyment of the game, it has no impact on me. However team sellers who farm the 1500-2000's every week in full S3 gear to sell a team to a team buyer do impact my enjoyment of the game and that's why I'm against it. Gold selling hurts the economy (and the player base because it breeds keyloggers and gold spam), team selling hurts the PvPers who are in the meat of the ratings bracket (and breeds win-traders) because they have to be farmed to create the product to sell. Both are bad for the game and I think based on today's patch changes, Blizzard agrees.

You can bring up all the irrational comparisons you want, but in my opinion it's wrong and it's hurtful to the PvPers out there who want to actually earn what we get and I'd like to see even more restrictions on how teams are formed and how players are allowed to move between teams.

[Vyndree]

My only comment here is that we need to look long and hard into the mirror before we start QQing about people who "skillup" (i.e. the 2.5 vs 3 example) other scrub players by *gasp* actually playing games with them. The amount of time spent by these so-called uber players to very literally CARRY a nublet around is skill within itself. Granted, I don't want to see a 1500's rated team with 2 uber skilled, uber geared players and one scrub in it.... Personally I'd imagine the cost to waste those uber geared players' time would help offset things, since it's not like they can just play their 7 games quickly, roll some peeps, and let the scrubs lose their 3 games. It would actually take time, effort, and ALOT of effort to "pvp powerlevel" these folks.

... but then look at the argument against multiboxing.


"It's cheating" -- see blizz quotes saying it's not
"It's cheating, I don't care what blizzard says" -- hmm... logical argument?
"It's unfair to see multiboxers in BGs just rolling us PuGs" -- see 2 uber SKILLED players leveling up a scrub and rolling the 1500 teams
"It's unfair that multiboxers are more synchronized/powerful than regular players" -- are not 2 uber SKILLED players more skilled than our normally played 3-man? But, then again, the normal players don't carry dead weight

Blizzard has never said that automating behaviors was OK. Blizzard has said that multiboxing was ok -- while at the same time saying "as long as there is not automation".
Blizzard has never said that win trading was OK. Blizzard has said that team/point/spot selling was ok -- while at the same time saying that it would be more difficult with 2.4.2.

===

Moral of the story -- I don't like seeing uber geared folks rolling undergeared people either, but before we start calling out arguments we need to take a good long hard look in the mirror to make sure we're not QQing just as bad as the forum trolls QQ about multiboxing. If blizzard says it's ok, and that 2 uber geared s3/s4 folks will roll people in the 1500's until they level back up out of it, then it's ok. Instead of QQ'ing about it, think about how you'd beat a comp like that -- identify the person who gets carried and totally ignore them? Spike one of the uber geared dudes down really quickly? CC which one?


That would actually be a productive discussion. Crying like a baby about blizzard's decisions, or claiming it's cheating "because I said so and I don't like it" really changes nothing. Blizzard will fix it when they get around to fixing it -- and judging by the fixes they implement for the poor dying shaman class (yes, they have major problems when not stacked in 4/5 shammy groups like we do when multiboxing), that won't be anytime soon. Learn to deal with it until policy changes.

[Eteocles]

I'm getting a little tired of teh "YER JUST LIKE THE ANTIBOXERS" comment...blizz IS actively working to control arena gear. Not just wintrading but who wears it period. Blizz isn't actively working to disable boxers; they're not trying to control how we /follow or target/assist. Posting things like that are only gonna inflame the fire further Vyn, I ask please to avoid using that comparison.

Now keep in mind guys, it IS a strong subject to both sides. But. This is still a DISCUSSION. Heated or not. Let's try not to put each other down in the process of making our views known. :P

[Vyndree]

I'm getting a little tired of teh "YER JUST LIKE THE ANTIBOXERS" comment...blizz IS actively working to control arena gear.

The difference is that blizz is actively working to control arena gear from CHEATING (which was the topic thread -- cheating via win-trading)

Blizz has confirmed that selling teams, points, and/or rating -- provided it is done LEGITIMATELY -- is not cheating. Until that changes, arguing that it's cheating is a moot point regardless of opinion. Blizzard decides. This was the only analogy I was trying to make since we can all sympathize about being on the other end of the stick -- we should have more empathy regardless of opinion because we're in a similar situation. This whole attitude is something that I am very familiar with having trolled the multiboxing trollers, and let me tell you -- I don't want us putting our foot in our mouths by acting the same way towards others.

If we can move past that and deal with "ok, so how do we counter said problem players" would be a much more productive discussion -- at least in my opinion. :)

[Knytestorme]

I have to say, I do agree with the point Vyn is making. If we want to be able to appear to be making solid arguments and points against QQ'ers on the forums regarding multiboxing then we shouldn't be quite willing to go and use their arguments for our own purposes against something we don't like.

Yes, Blizzard have stated that win-trading is against the rules, and multiboxing isn't and no-one is disputing that...what is the issue is when someone here quite freely states "I don't care what Blizzard say, it's immoral/against the spirit" when it comes to points-trading. That argument is used against us time and again on the forums and we always have the correct reply to it so how can it make the community look anything but hypocritical when we start using it about something that is not against the rules but we disagree with? It only takes one smart troll on the forums to work out how to use that against us in a multi-boxing thread and that entire line of reasoning goes down the tubes.

In regards to points-trading, I'm not sure where I sit yet. I know it's annoying as hell lately to be trying to get my 10 games run each week with ~1100 rating and coming up against teams rocking 16k tanks, mages that can blizzard my entire team down to 0 in two casts, lots of s3 gear etc BUT it's also not against the rules so I deal with it and don't take it too seriously. Personally I think that the guys selling the points could be doing more productive things in game to be raising cash (since they are going to gain pretty much the same ammount of points whether they are rated 2000 or 2100 in the week) but that's their choice, and it's the choice of the buyer what they want to spend their money on...neither of which really affect me overall. Yes there is a distinct affect on me for those 10 games, but after that I am not bothered by them again so why should I want to try to regulate the way someone spends their time in game. If we compare this to real sports, in things like Formula 1 (or other motor racing leagues) it's quite common for a driver to actually get their seat in the team not through their ability but because they being with them sponsors...for example, Shinji Nakano replaced a driver in the Super Aguri team last year because the team were having financial difficulties and he brought sponsors with him worth over $10m that would only sign-up if he were driving.

Win-trading however was never going to be let fly by Blizzard and I don't see why people would be so short-sighted as to think it would. Blizzard are trying to position arena's as a competitive and exciting e-sport (never mind they still don't have good spectator functionality in the client to allow people to watch the top matches remotely) and the whole concept of win-trading is analagous to match-fixing in regular sports. I don't know about anyone else, but match-fixing has never gone down well in any sport and I can't see how anyone with an ounce of common sense could not see that the banhammer would be dropped hard on anyone doing it in the arenas...the same as athlete's being suspended or banned for it in real sports.

To me, this revolves around Blizzard wanting arenas to be able to be presented as an e-sport and bring them in another revenue stream without a hint of impropriety around it and they are doing what they have to to get rid of any perceived taint and I agree with them on that, but I don't think they should be classing points-traders with win-traders given the comparisons between the two that can be made with real sports.

OT: How can someone use S3 weapons/shoulders if they form a new team and start at 1500 PR? And if my ratings are at 1100 as they are now can I just fold my team and restart it each week, drop from 1500 to ~1400 points, get points based on that rating rather than just staying as I am and making points on a constantly lowering rating?

[Buzzatronic]

If we can move past that and deal with "ok, so how do we counter said problem players" would be a much more productive discussion -- at least in my opinion. :)

"How can we counter said problem players"? That's easy, remove their incentive to maximize their profit for minimal effort by not participating in the economy of bypassing the legitimate gain of arena points to begin with.

I'm sure that's not the answer you're looking for but since none of us are developers or designers for Blizzard, there's not much more "we" can do other than make win trading a zero profit proposition.

:)

[Buzzatronic]

That would actually be a productive discussion. Crying like a baby about blizzard's decisions ...

I'm not sure name calling is productive either, but what do I know. :)

[Vyndree]

That would actually be a productive discussion. Crying like a baby about blizzard's decisions ...

I'm not sure name calling is productive either, but what do I know. :)

I didn't name names, nor was it directed at anyone in particular -- from my history you should know that if I ever have a problem with an INDIVIDUAL I contact them privately and don't promote public slander. This, however, was directed at the entire thread. The whole topic is about people crying on forums over wintrading, and I think the crying and illogical argument style is starting to creep into our forum in a way that's rather hypocritical.

The last I want to have to hear and/or deal with is some random forum troll deciding to use this as firepower in their argument to get the community all riled up about multiboxing. "GG, multiboxers have no skillz, they are teh cheatzors, lookit them cry about point trading cuz they suxxor at teh pvp and think it's cheating cuz they can't make it outta 1500's, roflmao gg qq lol wtfpwnzor" -- many of you have decided to tune out this sort of garbage on the wowforums, but I for one am trying to make a decent name for the multiboxing community as a whole, and using similar baseless argumentative styles isn't helping.

[Buzzatronic]

... using similar baseless argumentative styles isn't helping.

Just because you feel the arguments on one side or another are "baseless" doesn't make it true, this is just like the "Blizzard doesn't think it's cheating but it is because I say so" annoyance that anti-boxers quote daily.

There is obviously a problem with people obtaining arena gear through illegitimate channels, I think on that we can all agree. It's not baseless to assert that such behavior breeds worse behavior and the fact that Blizzard is actively making changes to not only stop win-trading but also make team/point selling much less profitable and much harder to do means that Blizzard also feels this theory is not baseless.

If everything was hunky dorey with team selling and point selling and win-trading was the only problem, there would have been no changes made and win traders would have just been banned.

But ultimately I think the debate here is futile since for the most part, whichever side you stand on is in direct relation to how you play the game so no one is going to change anyone's minds.

With that said, I'm done. I've stated my opinion and am confident is it not baseless nor does it make me a cry-baby. But of course, we know the old saying about opinions ...

[Vyndree]

... using similar baseless argumentative styles isn't helping.

Just because you feel the arguments on one side or another are "baseless" doesn't make it true, this is just like the "Blizzard doesn't think it's cheating but it is because I say so" annoyance that anti-boxers quote daily.

I believe you might've misunderstood (why am I sensing a pattern here? Am I speaking weird today?) what I was saying, or you're just confirming what I said... I believe the STYLE of the argument is flawed -- not the argument itself.

[Zaelar]

Letting teams have an unlimited amount of people and letting everyone get points based on team rating without ever playing would stop s3 people from playing in the 1600 bracket. There would be no monetary incentive to create new teams at least. People would still sell arena points, but it wouldn't affect you in the same way that power leveling wouldn't affect you.

[Ðeceased]

Well as far as I'm concerned selling arena teams for gold, or boosting ppl for gold or whatever is fine. It's just part of WoW trading. whether it's providing an item or a service.

As for trading in $$$.. /slap

or

if it involves communicating with the other team and fixing fights in order for a team to gain rankings... it's more of a grey area :S

[Zaelar]

It's not a gray area, it's flat out not allowed. That is what the recent suspensions were all about.(at least from what I can tell)

It's not allowed in battlegrounds or world pvp either. It's not allowed in any competitive environment(outside of wow) that I can think of either.

[Tonuss]

If there was nothing wrong in Blizzard's eyes with points/team selling, then they wouldn't be making so many changes to make it much more difficult in today's patch.I get the feeling that they don't like it, but they don't feel it's something they wanted to deal with so severely. Win-trading was an obvious exploit and something they had to try and put a stop to. Buying and selling teams can hurt other teams in the bracket that do not buy/sell points, but I am assuming that their investigations turned up that it doesn't make enough of an impact to harm the arena system as a whole. So instead of dishing out punishments, they are working to make it less effective.

I was teasing some of the trolls in the CS forum that maybe Blizzard was banning people who participating in buying or selling points and forcing them to go through the recovery process as their way of a mild punishment, but I don't really believe that to be the case. I think a small number of people who were on a team that win-traded, but didn't take part in it, got swept up when they were doing the bans. But the gear/point loss will be reversed if they contact account administration. People who didn't win-trade but were banned would understandably rush to the forums in an indignant panic, so it wound up appearing as if a large number of people faced this action. But blues explained that the number has been quite small.

I suspect that the tightening of the rules being done in order to rein in point selling will be further tightened if they feel it is not effective enough. Time will tell. I think that point selling is something that Blizzard would prefer go away on its own than something they want to try and prohibit directly.