Solo is the new Gimp!

[Boylston]

Come back Vyndreemy! We miss you!

I promise to personally browbeat anyone who gives you a hard time in the future... even myself if needed.

[Diamndzngunz]

She left?

[kllrwlf]

Signed. :love:

[Gurblash]

Signed as well :wacko:

[Tehtsuo]

She's for sale? How much are we talking here? *Gets out wallet*


(Sorry Suv, just playin :D )

[keyclone]

signed :love:

[Mokoi]

/signed
/signed
/signed
/signed
/signed


.. what? I pay my monthly fee on 5 accounts!! don't i get 5 votes?

[Steph]

/signed

[Code]

A wise person once said, "...real life takes priority..." ^_^

[Khazrael]

While I never quite got to know her myself, she's obviously an important part of this community. Thusly...

/signed.

[Smallpox]

What, she left? Does anyone know why she left or is she just taking a break?

[mackenziemi]

/signed

[SaChoDark]

/signed

[Skuggomann]

/lick?

[Enti]

Vyn, I have Deadmedic's phone number if you want it for the next time he tries to be retarded with NB ^^
You could have funnnn

:P

[Basilikos]

I don't think she's for sale.

But in all seriousness, I hope all is well and she continues to participate here. I also think that whatever asshat accused here of something illegal apologizes. That's no better than some ignorant jerk getting on the case of any and every MBer for only doing something they don't understand. And in saying that, I fully realize I may well be calling another valued member an asshat. You're anonymous, whoever you are. Just deal with it.

[Lyonheart]

I sent her a PM in hopes of lifting her spirits. I miss reading her well written and thoughtful posts! /signed!!

[Stabface]

Maybe instead of asking for her to come back and post, you could ask for a little better moderation, so that when people get personally attacked something is done about it. Just a thought.

And speaking of attacks, this thread probably has something to do with why she left. Read it and put yourself in her shoes and think what you would do.
http://dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&postID=53001

[Stabface]

You have a right to dislike the arenas as much as you want, and voice your opinion about the arenas, but it is wrong to attack people over it.

Just like people have a right to dislike multi-boxing, and they could even come on this forum and post about the reasons why they dislike multiboxing, and there *might* even be some good intellectual discussion about it (maybe. until the flames started). But the instant they start attacking the *person* multiboxing that's where there is a problem.

[Dafa]

Good thread for a first post.

/signed 8o

[Oswyn]

You have a right to dislike the arenas as much as you want, and voice your opinion about the arenas, but it is wrong to attack people over it.

Just like people have a right to dislike multi-boxing, and they could even come on this forum and post about the reasons why they dislike multiboxing, and there *might* even be some good intellectual discussion about it (maybe. until the flames started). But the instant they start attacking the *person* multiboxing that's where there is a problem.


Agreed. Please come back Vyndree!

/signed

[Diamndzngunz]

Wait wait. Is it just me or am I missing something?

[Eteocles]

I didn't attack anyone over it :P And yea Dia, you missed a bunch of posts that someone ninja deleted that were nothing but explaining what happened. As I said in my deleted post, I was not among those who PM'd her nor did I mention her directly until she posted and then in my replies I stated my dislikes & reasons for it :p Don't delete this shit because it's fact regardless of what you do.
<snip>


edit:
i 'ninja' deleted your continued attack on one of our beloved members. Vyndree, is a brilliant person and has helped this community immensely... with the forums and directly with blizzard

your views on the matter would be similar to views held by multi-box haters on the wow forums, such an argument from a multi-boxer is just idiocy. to continue the argument, knowing a core member took it to heart when one of her beloved community attacked her, is just unwarranted and such posts will be similarly trimmed.

if you don't like my editing your post, tough beans. i stand with her. subject closed.

Rob

IWVB

Counter-edit: Hiding responses won't change anything, and as I said in THIS post, I did not attack her, I know she's done great things for and with us,(I never said she didn't nor did I want to repeat the same thing 20 other people have said in a row, redundancy is unnecessary) I simply thought her arena stuff is silly. I have not directly said ANYTHING about her specifically that was derogatory, just stated acts related to teamselling were distasteful to me and only me in general; I feel similarly that Ellay does the same but that's their choices and that's perfectly fine :p Doesn't mean I have to baa like the rest of the sheep and think it's cool. I do not like you saying it's the same thing as the antiboxers though because it's not an ignorant, unchanging uninformed view accompanied by insults; it's an opinion that was stated in the thread without actually specifying her until these replies.

And I'd like to keep the logic statement as well: Vyn said as long as Blizz said it's okay, it'll be used 100%; Blizzard isn't outright saying "bad Teamsellers, bad!" but they ARE adding shit in 2.4.2 to prevent it. Fact, not opinion. She did say that, and Blizz is doing that. Period. :P

This is a free speech forum isn't it? You can disagree with everything I say man but leave it up for the world to see, don't hide parts YOU specifically do not like. Explain how I'm wrong in a reply, quit censoring things you don't like.

[crebble]

maybe shes just takin a break since it was a hotlivered discussion...

[Basilikos]

Disclaimer: I was aware well ahead of time that Eteocles was in fact NOT the one who accused her of cheating. Just letting everyone know. After all, Boomkin don't insult each other.

[geoffdavison]

/signed

besides we need cute women that can talk geek here. :D

[mackenziemi]

you know personally I dont see why people feel the need to deputize themselves as the WoW police. I mean that from the people that accuse us of botting, to this whole thing with selling arena points/teams, to anything else really. WoW has police...they are called GM's. Who are you to say how I should or shouldn't play the game? Thats a GM's call. If you have a beef take it up with a GM not with another player.

[Slats]

Have to say I dont like the posts being edited or censored all the time its starting to shit me.

Some people obviously PM'd Vyndree (I myself was not one of them) Vyndree made a thread about it. A number of ppl voiced their opinion on various Arena related matters. In another thread Suvega let us know that Vyndree left because of the fuckwits on the forums.

It was Vyndrees choice to make a public post. It was various peoples choice to make public opinions. Stop fucking editing them.

I'm not gonna /sign this thread mainly because I thought Vyndree had more balls personally.

[Eteocles]

Mack, noone's policing. Some people hate murlocs, some people hate naga, some people hate alliance, I hate arenas. I voiced my opinion in a public post, she voiced her distaste for whoever the underhanded bastards were that hounded her via PM, we all spoke out loud. I'm not saying at all how they "should" play, I'm saying "meh, I don't like it, but oh well, that's life" :p

[raylion]

I must agree with Slats on this one, some of the censoring on the forums have left me disappointed with the moderators...there was an issue being debated that wasn't allowed to finish as it was cut short.

Personally, I have no problem with Vyndree and think she's done many great things to help the multiboxing community as a whole and equally, the specific issue regarding the arenas is not something I'm bothered with as I don't PVP. I can see an argument for and against it but it's not something that affects me in any way.

I just feel this whole problem could have been handled better. Editting posts or locking threads just leaves a bitter taste.

[Slats]

Raylion on a totally off-topic note, your Avatar is so cute. :D

[Stabface]

I didn't attack anyone over it :P

No?

"Play your own team and fuckin earn it, don't take the easy way out and skip to yer gear, then you got no goal"
"enjoy your welfare, you "earned" it"

[Eteocles]

Those apply to ANYONE who does it stab; be it Vyn or any other player :p Just like people quote "third party software" you're leaving out the rest of the sentence where I think I elaborated about it being teamselling in general...if not, oh well :p Still my opinion regardless, not what anyone SHOULD do but what I think. Why bother if you're just gonna skip ahead to the end result and not enjoy the ride?

Let it die; it's over. Ironically you'll all think what you like about what went down as will I just like people think about multiboxing in differing ways. Bring Vyndree back, give her the strength to ignore idiots who PM her making accusations(You're a boxer and a smart person, you should have thick skin and know better than to take flame bait like that) end of thread.

[Tehtsuo]

I really don't want to be associated with this pointless drama, but if you ask me this isn't the forum for debates (or accusations) about arena politics. Take that stuff to the pvp forums or your server forums, it doesn't belong here.

[merujo]

I didn't attack anyone over it :P

No?

"Play your own team and fuckin earn it, don't take the easy way out and skip to yer gear, then you got no goal"
"enjoy your welfare, you "earned" it"

game over.

[keyclone]

i could debate the issue to no end... you only care that the subject is continued.

in the end, the discussion does nothing to help the community and only succeeds in bashing a member with your views, which i do not share (how could any multi-boxer have a problem with playing on the edge of the rules?)

and no. freedom of speech applies only to governments and entities that state as such. these forums have rules and guidelines... and moderators... who have discretion to edit/trim what they see fit to keep the forums in order. topics like the one you continue to hijack threads with, brings nothing to the community and could be trimmed. i do not take trimming lightly... and normally confer with others before taking such actions.

even discussing this serves your purpose.. as it keeps the topic alive. if you have no intention of continuing to bash a valued member that is not here to defend herself, then you would not have brought it up. but since you did, http://solidice.com/bitmaps/icon_finger.gif

IWVB

[Wilbur]

As Keyclone has said, we do not undertake any action lightly.

And, whilst I don't intend for this to be contrversial, I do believe that we don't have the right to moderate peoples criticism. As such I am re-opening this thread.

To be clear, I am not re-opening this thread so some of you can crusade on some witch-hunt especially seen as Vynd' isn't here to defend herself. I'm also not opening it so that others can "agressively" defend.

Personally, I am sick of all the passive-aggresive bullshit I've been seeing lately.

I hope some of you take this message to heart.

Regards.

[elo]

/signed

[d0z3rr]

I don't know why you guys want someone back that can't even handle being flamed on an internet forum.

Oh noes, mean text on a screen!!! I'm outta here!

[Wilbur]

I don't know why you guys want someone back that can't even handle being flamed on an internet forum.

Oh noes, mean text on a screen!!! I'm outta here!

Of course, the countless threads on the WoW forums where Vynd' has single handedly decimated most anti-multiboxer comments and arguments, no doubt at her own personal cost.

Either way, you guys all need to stop behaving like whiney children and remember what this community is for.

[keyclone]

it was NOT the community.. it was a very small handful

[Eteocles]

I didn't really wanna post in this thread again, but...

I'd still like to know who it was who accused her of wintrading and such...having opinions is fine but privately bothering her about repeatedly it is something different altogether. Was it at least a member we know is a member and not some new signups that're probably trolls/her opponents/past arena partners that did it just to grief her/start drama?

She has a blog to defend herself with/on as well...and could have just PM'd these people back. Was a public post necessary? Maybe, who knows. THE POINT IS IT IS DONE. If one of you wants to do something about it, track her down and ask her to come back and ignore the fools who pissed her off. DO something about it, you all can /sign all you want, petitions never get a damn thing done, action does :P Go get her! You're supposed to chase after a woman when she runs out on you anyways, lol, not sit there and argue with your friends about it

If she wants an apology...I'll apologize for my profanity, but not for my views, because they are mine damnit :P She doesn't like my views that's fine, that's her views and she can have 'em too. Doesn't mean she has to abandon the rest of you :p

[zanthor]

I don't know why you guys want someone back that can't even handle being flamed on an internet forum.

Oh noes, mean text on a screen!!! I'm outta here!Maybe because Vyn has done more to champion our cause with Blizzard and clarify and confirm that what we do is legal, and draw clean cut lines that we need to stay within to remain legal, than anyone else that I know of.

What Xzin is to hardware boxing Vyndree is to the politics lobby of boxing.

[Majestic_Clown]

This is what is boils down to guys...

If it is legal and has been confirmed legal by the game producers, makers, game reps or whatever, your views on it to be right or wrong are not welcome.

It's the same whole debate that normal Warcraft players have with multi boxers, even tho multi-boxing it's legal people moan on "moral grounds", "game not designed to for it" and/or "its not fair".

The arguments highlighted are irrelevant, legal is legal if people were or were not doing it.

All I am interested is what is NOT LEGAL and the people who post and exercise these nonlegal antics.

This is not JUST MY OPINION, its the facts, deal with it.

Vyndree ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=6527') for president :)V

[StormClouds]

I joined this community (actually signed up got involved, got interested etc) because of her so its rather a bummer she is not here now ;(


So even though I have never had direct communications with her add me to the IWVB crew

[Eteocles]

If it is legal and has been confirmed legal by the game producers, makers, game reps or whatever,Patch 2.4.2: Personal Rating requirements being added to S4. If your Personal Rating is not within 150 of the Team Rating, your games and points awarded will be based on your rating instead of the Team's rating. And a few other changes, all designed -specifically- to discourage/stop Team selling. People can still sell SPOTS I suppose and drag their personal rating up, but yeah, the "game producers/devs" seem to be showing via actions they're not all that pleased with it either :p

[Mak]

I joined this community (actually signed up got involved, got interested etc) because of her so its rather a bummer she is not here now


So even though I have never had direct communications with her add me to the IWVB crew

Concurred. She and so many others here inspired me to actually start this. I was excited to see that another fellow female gamer was so involved in something I was so excited to become a part of. I do hope that she comes back. /sign

[keyclone]

to the handful of people trying to seed discontent ... http://solidice.com/bitmaps/icon_finger.gif

there is nothing to debate. this thread was not your thread to discuss YOUR subject.. it was a good will thread asking a beloved member to rejoin because we missed HER, not you.

but you decided to jump in and hijack it to continue your, oh so brilliant crusade. brilliant.

Eteocles ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=User&userID=1983'), have some balls and go to the wow forums and discuss it. it does not belong here.

IWVB

[Tonuss]

A self regulating community is posible,As it grows, any online community is going to become less organized. It also becomes more varied, and that part is almost always good. But with growth you inevitably come to a point where your site owner/admin has to lay down some ground rules and enforce them. I certainly do not envy anyone that task, having been a moderator and administrator for a few years (at a board that grew from a handful of people to well over 1000 registered visitors a day). It is often an unfun and seemingly thankless job, but the more diligent you are, the quicker the community will fall in line.

[Eteocles]

Actually Rob the whole thing started simply because someone had no idea Vyndree had left or why; it was explained why and then someone took it as restirring the drama and it turned into this. As I said in my last post, I'm done; views are views, Blizz is stopping teamsellers, and unless someone has the balls to go DO something about it instead of sit here signing repeatedly, Vyndree is gone unfortunately.

You're not exactly being a shinig example yourself reacting angrily to these posts, locking threads, deleting posts and flipping us off; get off yer high horse and keep your similarly-inflammatory opinions(and fingers) to yourself if you want us to do the same.

AGAIN: THIS DEBATE IS OVER. Keep signing for what good it'll do till someone actually volunteers to tell her we miss her and show her the thread as proof :P DO NOT POST ANY MORE REPLIES THAT CONTAIN ANYTHING, -ANYTHING- related to this bullshit, it is OVER, ONLY post if it's related directly to having Vyndree back, period.

[keyclone]

hence the reason i locked it.

brilliant

and no, i don't stand by while someone attacks a friend behind their back... i'm weird like that

and i'll pull out the fingers every time you decide to bring it up again and rehashing it

IWVB

[Eteocles]

If Vyndree gave 2 shits she'd be here defending herself; she's completely able to do so; as slats said, she doesn't need knights in shining armor to do so for her; she's not banned nor unable to view the site and 100% able to do so herself. She herself said she can handle the stigma she may get in that very first post she made and I know damn well she's a very capable person of doing so; there's nothing "behind her back" about it, she's probably trolled the thread already and is quite aware, or someone has told her regardless. It's done, I'm done, all that's left is to hope she'll come back :P

[Stabface]

If it is legal and has been confirmed legal by the game producers, makers, game reps or whatever,Patch 2.4.2: Personal Rating requirements being added to S4. If your Personal Rating is not within 150 of the Team Rating, your games and points awarded will be based on your rating instead of the Team's rating. And a few other changes, all designed -specifically- to discourage/stop Team selling. People can still sell SPOTS I suppose and drag their personal rating up, but yeah, the "game producers/devs" seem to be showing via actions they're not all that pleased with it either :p

Blizzard has for months been stating that buying arena teams or points is not a violation, but it's not an activity they condone either. They are making it more difficult (which means it will cost more gold to buy teams/points, probably) next patch but it will still be within the game rules to do so. Unpopular, but allowed.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=4823213020&pageNo=1&sid=1#3
"At the moment, buying and selling both teams and arena points is not a violation of our policies. These are however, very unpopular practices, and we do not support them, despite opting not to punish this behavior."

[Gurblash]

It's done, I'm done

3rd times the charm?

[Eteocles]

It's done, I'm done
3rd times the charm?srsly u guyz(I have issues with letting misinformation be the last word; and yea Stab that's one of the threads I was thinking of, ty lol)

[thinus]

TLDR

What the hell am I doing up at 6 am? Wait, where am I? Who am I? And who is that dwarf wearing women's underwear and looking at me with a mischievous gling in his eye?

[Poolboy]

I haven't posted in here yet but that comment is pretty assinine, man.

The fact is, if Vyn was some random lurker who posted once every 2 months this thread wouldn't exist. But she's not. She's practically the voice of the community. So she's missed a lil mmk?

[StormClouds]

Hate to tell you, but i have no clue as to what she looks like, It just seems to me she is a pretty cool person.

[PyrostasisTDK]

I miss having Vyndree around as well. However, we have all seen her handle herself extremely well against people who are even more outspoken than Eteo. I didnt see anything in the other thread or this thread for that matter that was extremely offensive. Eteo disagreed with something she was doing, and was a bit more verbose than I would have been personally... but I dont think it was so bad she needed to leave the community.

I agree Vyndree can handle herself... and in the case she couldnt Im sure Suvega is a rabid bear when it comes to her as well. There are also far many more pro-vyndree people here than there are anti-vyndree so in the court of public opinion she would easily win an argument.

So Im not exactly sure what the problem was, unless she got a pm that was just plain nasty... if she did then remove said individual from the site...

However, this is a public forum... this thread is easily accessible by her and everyone else... so its not behind her back in any way form or fashion.

Anyways... just throwing out my 2 cents. I tried to stay out of it for as long as I could, but Im an out spoken prick.

[Eteocles]

I think/hope dozerr was just tyring to make a joke in an overly dramatic thread, don't jump on him too badly ;p And we had Vyndree's pics here somewhere...needless to say she's quite the opposite of a stereotyped female gamer; thin, smart, good looking etc :p But also taken, so shhhh or Suv will show up and bite your kneecaps off.

Cmon guys let the thread die if you're not gonna throw in your support to have her back :p We're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic here.

And in response to Pyro but to the public: I'm not Anti-Vyndree either; yea big whoop I whine about arenas, but I will echo and agree Vyn's done ALOT for the community as a whole regardless :p That Belfaire post in particular was a major break-through in shutting up the people who say it's automation and illegal. There is no bitterness/grudges towards Vyn here

[Bollwerk]

*misses Suvega and Vyndree*

[Kyudo]

/Thinks this community has plenty of other people who are willing and able to contribute rather than continuing to flog this dead dog....

[Vyndree]

Uhm.... Whoa.

Hey guys, I go on a break and there is a 4-page thread about me and some of it isn't so very community friendly. I definitely do not want a rift torn thru this community based on miscommunication so while I sift through the remaining threads I missed over the past weeks please bear with me.

Clarification point #1: Eteocles is not the reason for me taking a break from the forums. He may be quite opinionated, and I might disagree with his blunt way of dealing with sensitive situations, but I certainly wouldn't /forumquit over it. ;) I appreciate the sentiment that you guys want to go on a headhunt for the people who cause me problems, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. You don't fight fire with fire. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight. (Ok, I'm done with the analogies.)

Clarification point #2: I took a break due to repeated PM harassment that continued AFTER me providing clarification in the form of PM responses and a public forum thread. Breaks mean you come back. ;) Contrary to popular wowforum belief, I am human and arguments do stress me out. Normally I can handle myself pretty well, but after a certain point you really have to step back, take a few breaths, and come back better prepared to handle the sh*t life (and the wow forums) throws at you. Overextending yourself will only lead to early burnout, which none of us want, amirite?

Clarification point #3: I had been meaning to lurk around while taking my break, but got a little sidetracked due to certain other non-multiboxing issues ('http://vboxing.net/blog/vboxing.php/2008/04/28/instant-enhancement') that I've had to deal with recently. It's a frustrating experience, but I'm trying to get it all sorted out. Besides that, I've also transfered to a new group at my job and so I'm dealing with getting all of my work stuff sorted out as well.

Anyways, to catch you all up...
The warlocks are 54.
The shaman haven't been doign much since Velani had her enhancement fiasco ('http://vboxing.net/blog/vboxing.php/2008/04/28/instant-enhancement')
Vyndree is not dead, hasn't gamequit, hasn't been banned, hasn't stopped multiboxing, and hasn't disappeared forever.

Kthx. <3
-Vyndree

[Xzin]

/hug Vyndreamy.

[Yeti Detective Agency]

Awesome!

Glad you and Suvega are back.

:thumbsup:

[Jaws5]

damm Girl , I thought you backup Tank failed and you where flooded. Hope all is well. :) :)

[Poolboy]

zomg vyn... that blog entry is making my already stressful evening even worse. Honestly, i'm not even in your guild, but i could scream right now.
That has got to be the most BOGUS pile of horseshit i've had to read in a looong time.

Seriously... I would walk. I would walk with your dignity intact, be the bigger person and try not to burn any bridges. Your asshat GL will NEVER get it, but your comrades there do and will. You've got their respect. Even moreso when they see what you pulled off in a span of a week ALL FOR THEM.

GTFO while you can and if raiding is still your thing any other guild on your server would /drool and /grovel for a team player like yourself.

PS - Glad to see you back ^^

[Basilikos]

How do you spell relief?

V-Y-N-D-R-E-E

And for the record, yes, I know I'm too young and should not know about that commercial. Just skip it.

[Knytestorme]

Since Vyn is posting in here now figure I might as well post and see if anyone else has issues I have.

Just regiestered on your blog to post a comment but it won't accept my password and when I hit the "forgot password?" it says it has sent an email to me but it still hasn't arrived while the original validation email did. Also it might just be something you haven't gotten round to but http://www.v-boxing.net/blog doesn't redirect to http://www.vboxing.net/blog and http://www.vboxing.net/ just gives the header graphic and nothing else. Not sure if they are remanents from your hassles a few weeks ago but thought I might bring them up in case you hadn't realized :)

[Eteocles]

Yay, ty Vyn =P We can agree to disagree and still be friends lolz

Also, holy shit @ the Instant Enhancement post...had I known shit like that was going on I'd have been a little more toned down, I don't blame you after taking shit like that from them :p

[StormClouds]

Urm.....

/happy dance

Now your guild did ... WTF O_O

/sarcasim
Yay for spending most of every second in game to get gear you didnt have for a spec you didnt want to play then get basically screwed over it?
/regular

Glad you wanna play at all anymore

[Poolboy]

That is a BADASS set of toon names Storm, I love it love it love it!

[Ðeceased]

gawd.. I'm hospitalised for a week this happens!! ;(

Welcome back Vyn, sorry to hear about all this PM malarkey.
Lets hope it's all water under the bridge.

As for those.. well, I fail to think of a word for that bunch in the guild.. :cursing:
Kinda feel sorry for that poor shammy that's stuck between you and the guild :pinch: I'd be very worried to get on the wrong side of either of you!

[Boylston]

Clearly you should have used Boom's command-line skills instead. Haven't you heard of "/cast GearedEnhanceShammy"??

Welcome back Vyndreemy! You can say all you want about "breaks" and enhancement drama, but I know you only came back because of my thread...

Now, tell me about your hunters.

[Vyndree]

Now, tell me about your hunters.

Haven't really touched them recently... I think the last thing I did was BFD and was about to do the quest to get them all their furbolg stick.

[Eteocles]

Yknow in my 3 years of playing and hundreds upon hundreds of chars that furbolg form quest is the only one I've never, ever done once? Where the hell does it start? lol

[Arryth]

I didn't attack anyone over it :P

No?

"Play your own team and fuckin earn it, don't take the easy way out and skip to yer gear, then you got no goal"
"enjoy your welfare, you "earned" it" Well, his manner of delivery was, indeed lacking tact...... He is 100% right in his opinion. Team trading hurts other players VERY badly. When you have people in the higher levels of gear, and skill, dropping into the lower brackets.. you are taking points away from the people in those brackets. It is in fact an exploitation of a system that blizzard did not intend, and IS correcting in 2.4. How ever, it also is indeed not cheating .........just wrong........ As 5 boxers, we should never do any thing that actually unfairly harms another player, lest we draw the ire of blizzard, and they turn against us.
Also.... the forum post editing I have seen recently is fairly heavy handed....... sprited discussion should be encouraged not squlched.

Edit: Glad your back and there not a rift in the community... there are enough haters on the wow general forums (shudder).

[Poolboy]

Now, tell me about your hunters.

Haven't really touched them recently... I think the last thing I did was BFD and was about to do the quest to get them all their furbolg stick.

Huzzzzzah! BEHOLD the FURLBOGS. ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=6436')

[Arryth]

Now, tell me about your hunters.

Haven't really touched them recently... I think the last thing I did was BFD and was about to do the quest to get them all their furbolg stick. I started a hunter 5 box last week. It is up to 24 at the moment, and the most fun I have had in wow so far. Ive not done BFD yet, but was able to clear WC at 16 - 17.

[Vyndree]

Where the hell does it start? lol

Raene's Cleansing ('http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=991') --> Dartol's Rod of Transformation ('http://www.wowhead.com/?item=5462')

[Bigfish]

No?

"Play your own team and fuckin earn it, don't take the easy way out and skip to yer gear, then you got no goal"
"enjoy your welfare, you "earned" it" Well, his manner of delivery was, indeed lacking tact...... He is 100% right in his opinion. Team trading hurts other players VERY badly. When you have people in the higher levels of gear, and skill, dropping into the lower brackets.. you are taking points away from the people in those brackets. It is in fact an exploitation of a system that blizzard did not intend, and IS correcting in 2.4. How ever, it also is indeed not cheating .........just wrong........ As 5 boxers, we should never do any thing that actually unfairly harms another player, lest we draw the ire of blizzard, and they turn against us.
Also.... the forum post editing I have seen recently is fairly heavy handed....... sprited discussion should be encouraged not squlched.

Edit: Glad your back and there not a rift in the community... there are enough haters on the wow general forums (shudder).

Team trading, like just about everything else in Arena, is messed up as Blizz attempts to get their failure of an e-sport working. Its not really fair to come down on a member of the multiboxing community for doing what thousands of single players do. Do I condone it. Not at all. I hate point selling, team trading, and all the other unintended manipulations of the point system. But that's just what I think, and it only goes so far as the tip of my nose. I've seen high rated players who legitimately join a low ranking team to bring their rating up. They're just helping out a friend. Several steps away from that, you start to get seedier and seedier. However, whatever the case, its all getting changed at S4 anyway, so no point crying about it now.

[Vyndree]

As for those.. well, I fail to think of a word for that bunch in the guild.. :cursing:
Kinda feel sorry for that poor shammy that's stuck between you and the guild :pinch: I'd be very worried to get on the wrong side of either of you!

*sigh*

I have heard from multiple sources that my entire weekend fiasco was thanks to one misconception by the guild leader:
I am a girl. And girls cannot perform in video games at the same level as men.

F*#!ing unbelievable.

[Knytestorme]

As for those.. well, I fail to think of a word for that bunch in the guild.. :cursing:
Kinda feel sorry for that poor shammy that's stuck between you and the guild :pinch: I'd be very worried to get on the wrong side of either of you!

*sigh*

I have heard from multiple sources that my entire weekend fiasco was thanks to one misconception by the guild leader:
I am a girl. And girls cannot perform in video games at the same level as men.

F*#!ing unbelievable.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/kayaus/PicardWtf.jpg

pretty much says it all for me about that Vyn. I know what 6 characters my fingers would be typing the next time I logged on, that's for sure. Or challenge them to change spec as quickly and as effectively as you did to prove their case :)

[Bigfish]

*sigh*

I have heard from multiple sources that my entire weekend fiasco was thanks to one misconception by the guild leader:
I am a girl. And girls cannot perform in video games at the same level as men.

F*#!ing unbelievable.

Wow. Just read your blog entry. That's messed up.

[Gadaí]

*sigh*

I have heard from multiple sources that my entire weekend fiasco was thanks to one misconception by the guild leader:
I am a girl. And girls cannot perform in video games at the same level as men.

F*#!ing unbelievable.I know that I rarely post (though I'm regularly trolling) but in 17 years of online gaming (going back to MA MuD) and about 15 of those either leading or involved in leading guilds I've never heard anything so ridiculous. If it is the case (since all you have at the moment is rumour no matter how trustworthy the source) then, as already pointed out, you should consider g-quitting. Anyone in the noughties who holds onto antiquated and misogynistic ideas like that isn't going to be persuaded easily that they're wrong and that effort would probably be better spent enjoying yourself elsewhere, where you will be appreciated rather then fighting a (potential eternal) battle to earn grudging acceptance from someone. Hrm, I kind of got a little mythical there at the end but you get my point. In any case, good luck with the situation, welcome back and only do anything as long as the average percentage at the end is >50% happiness ;)

[Ifalna]

I would imagine in that case that your guild leader is early teen, which is not really an excuse, or just plain stupid.

It comes up far too often to actually be worth getting upset over, because at the end of the day, if you are pathetic enough to believe it, your the one with the problem, not the girls ¬_¬

[Gadaí]

I would imagine in that case that your guild leader is early teen, which is not really an excuse, or just plain stupid.

It comes up far too often to actually be worth getting upset over, because at the end of the day, if you are pathetic enough to believe it, your the one with the problem, not the girls ¬_¬See - we Irish speak sense ;)

ps - many of us Irish appearing with low post counts - did someone post about here on Boards.ie or what?

[Ifalna]

Hehe no idea :D

I'm a long time lurker, only made an account recently. Lets not derail the thread anyway, it would rapidly turn into nonsense chat considering our nationality ;)

[Steph]

I have heard from multiple sources that my entire weekend fiasco was thanks to one misconception by the guild leader:
I am a girl. And girls cannot perform in video games at the same level as men.

F*#!ing unbelievable.

Ouch, that is just stupid. WoW in general and raiding in particular do not favor any gender. It is true that more males than females are interested in WoW and that that ratio shifts even further towards males in raiding, but I think that is just a question of interest and not at all one of capability.

I think you made a tremendous effort to answer your guild's need for an enhancement shaman spot to be filled. It is a shame that at the end of the day, the effort was not really needed, but after you made it and were already a guild member, the story's turn really surprises me. It sounds like there is a real communication and coordination problem in your guild. Recruiting for a spot and asking you at the same time to fill it just does not make much sense, unless indeed your guild leader really believes that you are incapable of pressing buttons just so because you are a woman. It is sad and a waste. It looks to me as if you are very patient, but I figure if both you and Suvega had told your guild leader to put his requests for healing where the sun does not shine he would have looked stupid indeed, and probably would have had understood that there is a problem. For the guild it is without question good that you did not choose such a confrontation, but your GM should really apologize. What you do then, raid as healing, enhancement, elemental or not at all is not really the big question, the question is if the breech of trust can be mended.

I should stop blabbering now. Sorry.

[bodefeld]

Welcome back.

[Poolboy]

wow wow wow wow.... this guild 'leader' is aware that you re-specced, got more gear, learned more events for your 1st time attempting (and then winning them), and put in more effort in FIVE DAYS than it would take 99% of players to accomplish in 6 weeks?! Please tell me he's aware.

All without a penis! Imagine that!

He knows that on a regular basis you handle FIVE TIMES the warcraft he does? What a clown, seriously.

In my experience (i know it's not everyone's.) every single Guild Leader in an MMO i've had the displeasure of being associated with has shown themselves in the end to be nothing but some teenage/unemployed keyboard cowboy who NEEDS to run shit online because their RL has so little control or satisfaction and they are the only people who are able to dump the sheer amount of time and energy into dealing with running a group of e-friends. Typically, all of them have been drama-whores, as it only stands to highten their sense of virtual superiority.

I've heard of great GL's, but I've never found one. Maybe I'm unlucky. Or I'm a reasonable and rational adult playing a kid's game? LOL.

[Eteocles]

All without a penis! Imagine that!

Everyone knows you can clearly use your penis to press an extra button at the same time as your fingers, which adds more dps. Duh. Though, boobs could mash the whole keyboard at once...assuming in both cases you're endowed well enough ;) (Yeah it's a joke I had to say it ;p)

[Maz]

I actually have a footswitch mounted on the underside of my desk. Not sure what to bind it to though TBH.

[StormClouds]

I actually have a footswitch mounted on the underside of my desk. Not sure what to bind it to though TBH.The "I Win" button obviously

[Poolboy]

my god... you can get foot switches????? WANT!

hmm, i'd bind mine to shocks i think. that wat i could WASD/mouse strafe around effortlessly and tap foot to nuke shit when CD was up.

If I had two I'd put LB on it fer sure, omgz i need one. I WANT A LINK!

[Eteocles]

I hope you're hitting that switch with your foot...lol

It also gives new meaning to "stomping" someone in pvp :P

Also, lol 100 posts and topic is completely derailed.

[Mak]

As for those.. well, I fail to think of a word for that bunch in the guild.. :cursing:
Kinda feel sorry for that poor shammy that's stuck between you and the guild :pinch: I'd be very worried to get on the wrong side of either of you!

*sigh*

I have heard from multiple sources that my entire weekend fiasco was thanks to one misconception by the guild leader:
I am a girl. And girls cannot perform in video games at the same level as men.

F*#!ing unbelievable.

That is unbelievable. I would /gquit right now. It doesn't seem like this guild (especially the leader) has any respect for the time and effort you but into gearing up your shaman (which was an amazing feat btw, wish I could do that!). This even more so adds to why my toons don't join guilds and I rarely reveal that I'm a female gamer. I just wish it was easier to hide on Vent =P Good thing I'm five-boxing now b/c if I want to avoid the idiots like this I can just run myself through an instance but if you're a raider, it's kinda hard.

In my opinion, find a guild that respects the fact that you're a badass female gamer who pulls her weight (and probably more!). There is no difference when it comes to button mashing and those that think there is are just sad, narrow minded people who should leave their bedroom and greet the sun.

Either way, welcome back and I hope all this drama-filled BS goes away for you and you find a solution that works.

[Gallo]

As for those.. well, I fail to think of a word for that bunch in the guild.. :cursing:
Kinda feel sorry for that poor shammy that's stuck between you and the guild :pinch: I'd be very worried to get on the wrong side of either of you!

*sigh*

I have heard from multiple sources that my entire weekend fiasco was thanks to one misconception by the guild leader:
I am a girl. And girls cannot perform in video games at the same level as men.

F*#!ing unbelievable.

That is unbelievable. I would /gquit right now. It doesn't seem like this guild (especially the leader) has any respect for the time and effort you but into gearing up your shaman (which was an amazing feat btw, wish I could do that!). This even more so adds to why my toons don't join guilds and I rarely reveal that I'm a female gamer. I just wish it was easier to hide on Vent =P Good thing I'm five-boxing now b/c if I want to avoid the idiots like this I can just run myself through an instance but if you're a raider, it's kinda hard.

In my opinion, find a guild that respects the fact that you're a badass female gamer who pulls her weight (and probably more!). There is no difference when it comes to button mashing and those that think there is are just sad, narrow minded people who should leave their bedroom and greet the sun.

Either way, welcome back and I hope all this drama-filled BS goes away for you and you find a solution that works.

Bah, I hate to think that jerks like that would prevent you from revealing that you are a female gamer. I'm only 26, but in the past 5-6 years of gaming in online communities, I have seen a HUGE jump in the number of females playing and contributing to the gaming community. I for one am glad that this is happening, because frankly, I think it to some degree curtails some of the immature idiots out there. Not to say that there aren't female gamers out there that aren't immature, but on a whole females are more mature at an earlier age (I'm not afraid to say it gentlemen).

Don't hide yourself on the internet. Be vocal, and do what you can to add to the online community the best way you can.

/salute

[Mak]

Bah, I hate to think that jerks like that would prevent you from revealing that you are a female gamer. I'm only 26, but in the past 5-6 years of gaming in online communities, I have seen a HUGE jump in the number of females playing and contributing to the gaming community. I for one am glad that this is happening, because frankly, I think it to some degree curtails some of the immature idiots out there. Not to say that there aren't female gamers out there that aren't immature, but on a whole females are more mature at an earlier age (I'm not afraid to say it gentlemen).

Don't hide yourself on the internet. Be vocal, and do what you can to add to the online community the best way you can.

/salute

That's why I didn't hesitate to reveal it here. Everyone here seems pretty cool and there's a few open female gamers here so I figured I'd add myself to the ranks.

[Maz]

my god... you can get foot switches????? WANT!

hmm, i'd bind mine to shocks i think. that wat i could WASD/mouse strafe around effortlessly and tap foot to nuke shit when CD was up.

If I had two I'd put LB on it fer sure, omgz i need one. I WANT A LINK!
http://www.fentek-ind.com/afs3usb.jpg ('http://www.fentek-ind.com/FootPedal.htm')

Edit: I just noticed that those pedals can be programmed to send sequences of characters. If you used that feature, you'd be in violation of the TOS so caveat emptor.

Now get back on topic damn you!

/target Vyndree
/wave

Don't know you but I can feel the love in here. Besides, I've seen you doing your laundry which is more intimate than I've been with anyone else I've met in WoW during the three years I've played.

[Gallo]

Bah, I hate to think that jerks like that would prevent you from revealing that you are a female gamer. I'm only 26, but in the past 5-6 years of gaming in online communities, I have seen a HUGE jump in the number of females playing and contributing to the gaming community. I for one am glad that this is happening, because frankly, I think it to some degree curtails some of the immature idiots out there. Not to say that there aren't female gamers out there that aren't immature, but on a whole females are more mature at an earlier age (I'm not afraid to say it gentlemen).

Don't hide yourself on the internet. Be vocal, and do what you can to add to the online community the best way you can.

/salute

That's why I didn't hesitate to reveal it here. Everyone here seems pretty cool and there's a few open female gamers here so I figured I'd add myself to the ranks.

Well, good. It's just hard to believe that gender stereotypes are still keeping people from communities on the net. I suppose that I'm very naive in my open-mindedness, but I hope that the sort of free communication of the net someday abolishes those barriers.

[Wilbur]

I'm sure this post will be met with some degree of criticism.

Personally, I avoid guilds with girls in.

Reasoning behind it, is that I hate unnessecary drama and I feel that in the guilds I have belonged to where girls have been involved, that is where it stems from.

I'd say the number of girls playing at the Highest levels of WoW are probably 1/50? 1/100? Smurfette in Smurf village ratios, along with that you have the hordes of salivating hormone ridden teenagers, drama is usually inevitable.

Then theres the jealousy, etc etc.

I think most of the issue stems from game design. Most games are designed for an adolescant male audience, there aren't a huge amount of *extremely* popular games that are targetted at girls.

Its out of MMOs that you see even less girls, the FPS genre for instance, arguably *THE* most competitive around, I've never seen a girl on the podium recieving an award at Quakecon who hasn't been competing in the girl events. Girls aren't competitive in the high-end yet, but when they are, god help us all ;)

[Maz]

Before I switched realms, I was in a guild with a female GL for two years. She exhibited none of the traits you describe. Any drama in that guild came strictly from the males.

We were a pretty mature guild; almost zero younger members with most players being between 20 and 40 (strangely bunched at either end of that range with little in between).

Prior to that I was in a guild that was co-lead by a man and wife team. My closest friend in that guild was also female.

The women I've met in WoW have very much enriched the experience for me.

[Mak]

I'm sure this post will be met with some degree of criticism.

Personally, I avoid guilds with girls in.

Reasoning behind it, is that I hate unnessecary drama and I feel that in the guilds I have belonged to where girls have been involved, that is where it stems from.

I'd say the number of girls playing at the Highest levels of WoW are probably 1/50? 1/100? Smurfette in Smurf village ratios, along with that you have the hordes of salivating hormone ridden teenagers, drama is usually inevitable.

Then theres the jealousy, etc etc.

I think most of the issue stems from game design. Most games are designed for an adolescant male audience, there aren't a huge amount of *extremely* popular games that are targetted at girls.

Its out of MMOs that you see even less girls, the FPS genre for instance, arguably *THE* most competitive around, I've never seen a girl on the podium recieving an award at Quakecon who hasn't been competing in the girl events. Girls aren't competitive in the high-end yet, but when they are, god help us all ;)I should criticize but I will restrain myself =P

In all honestly, I can hear your point. The best guild in the world Nilithum (sp?) doesn't recruit women b/c of the drama. That's maybe another reason why I avoid guilds. I have had WoW drama before because of jealousy and it escalated into RL (I knew them) and it wasn't pleasant. It has caused me to no longer play my first two 70s because I refuse to deal with the crap that comes with it (or with them). Another reason why I re-rolled (a 70 mage) and am now five-boxing it. It was basically an issue where they couldn't separate the game from reality.

For me, the drama found me. I didn't start it or do anything (that I know of) but it comes with the territory I guess of being a female in an overly male virtual world. Does it bother me? Heck yea it does but the truth is the truth. Cheers to the guilds out there who accept women and the ones that are relatively drama-free (one day I will join you). Everyone causes drama and since there's more males that play this game then females, there's likely more drama causing males in this game. But hey, everyone sees it as they see it.

With Vent, it's hard to hide the fact that we're female but if you didn't know the player behind the screen was a female, I don't think it would make a difference. Are you telling me that if you met a phenomenal healer/MT/DPS who rocked everyone's socks off, you'd just leave that guild when you found out it was a female? What if there were a couple high end female raiders? We've already proven that we can run with the boys so why not just give us a chance?

Revealing ourselves by telling someone or through voice ruins it all but we shouldn't have to hide. A lot of us do though ( I did until I came here). I read an article where a girl is MT for a high raiding guild on a male Tauren warrior so people wouldn't hit on her. It isn’t fair but we don't have a choice yet.

I think it all comes down to how the guild leader handles it. But please, don't blame us females for all the drama. Blame those, such as Vyn's GL, who think we're not as good as them. They are the reason there is drama. Their little world is made whole by breaking something and getting to 'fix' it when in reality; all they do is make it worse.

Hopefully, the more girls that break into gaming, the more accepted it will become. Look at what Vyn has does for this community. Proof right there that we're making progress. This is the 21st century after all. I do hope though that if anyone comes across a great guild, you'll give it a chance instead of not joining because there are females. I bet you'll meet some pretty kick ass girls, who can melt your face off =P

Before I switched realms, I was in a guild with a female GL for two years. She exhibited none of the traits you describe. Any drama in that guild came strictly from the males.

We were a pretty mature guild; almost zero younger members with most players being between 20 and 40 (strangely bunched at either end of that range with little in between).

Prior to that I was in a guild that was co-lead by a man and wife team. My closest friend in that guild was also female.

The women I've met in WoW have very much enriched the experience for me.I definitely prefer running with older people who have a bit more understanding. And the WoW couples are adorable and it's cool when they run a guild together. I have definitely heard tons of positive responses to female gamers. Cheers to your guild! Hope your new one is just as awesome!

[Ifalna]

The best guild in the world Nilithum (sp?) doesn't recruit women b/c of the drama.Was actually a joke if I recall.

I've been in multiple guilds with masses of girls, inc myself, and as was mentioned before, any drama was the regular kind, the kind that happens in guilds regardless of sex, you know the sort ;)
The problem is that there are bad eggs, and due to the smaller amount of girl gamers and the fact that most do not go out of their way to make sure eveerrryone knows they are a girl " Teehee! *^.^* " /kiss , its the ones that do make a fuss and act like morons that people notice, and those are the kind that leave nasty first impressions.

It is completely understandable, but sad that there are a small percentage of guild Princesses around, and they ruin it for the real competitively minded girl gamers.

[Wilbur]

I hate the Princess's...

If any of you played EQ, I got a word for you, Kela. /spit.

[Ifalna]

I hate the Princess's...

Which around 60% of the time are men, posting pictures of internet gals or their sisters as "proof".

Gotta love the giant boobed pics from the sadly mute girl :(

[Gallo]

I hate the Princess's...

Which around 60% of the time are men, posting pictures of internet gals or their sisters as "proof".

Gotta love the giant boobed pics from the sadly mute girl :(

Ahhh anonymity can be fun!

[Djarid]

Gotta love the giant boobed pics from the sadly mute girl :(Love it!

[Eteocles]

Back in the Alpha and Beta RO days we had 2 chicks in our "guild"/community(which later turned into GBHQ if you know what that was prior to Gunbound's death and Caz going crazy); one fairly "normal" chick named Chell who didn't make a fuss over being a female, but was still crazy(as most chicks are ;) NOTE THE WINK PLEASE DONT KILL ME lolz), and the other was an often-pink-obsessed flirty girl named, funnily enough, Tunah. She provided some seemingly convincing pics but did overact the part a bit...didn't really "abuse" being a female, but worked kinda hard at it.(This was back in like 99/00/01 at worst before the whole no chicks on the intarweb joke)

Fast forward a year or so...the community's still together, waiting on RO's next beta. Turns out Tunah and another, male ,member of the community met in real life. Needless to say he was freakin humiliated to find out Ms. Tunah was Mr. Salmon. lol; poor guy never came back to the community and I don't think tunah did either.

Wall of text summary: BOY MEETS GIRL, GIRL IS GUY, MANY LOLZ

Anyways, on the current day topic, DA had quite a few female gamers including my ex...we even had 2 or 3 couples playing together too lol, it's becoming quite common as more chicks simply play and not give 2 shits about it and ignoring anyone who does still give a shit that they're females :P Didn't make a difference to us(well, except my ex...she threw so many bitchfits about loot and anytime I tried to explain raid strats to her to catch her up on new fights she'd tell me to "stfu i know how to play", aka took it to mean I didn't think she could...I know she could, I just told her the same as I tell everyone to not fuck up, and she's seen me do it to others too and complained when THEY didn't..lol [/rant]

"Anything you can do I can do better" "Yeah and anything I fuck up you can fuck up just as well", TRUE equality ;p Far as I personally care, I don't. I don't care if you're a kid or an adult, a dude or a chick; just play and if in a group or raid setting, at least try to play right ;p

[Vyndree]

wow wow wow wow.... this guild 'leader' is aware that you re-specced, got more gear, learned more events for your 1st time attempting (and then winning them), and put in more effort in FIVE DAYS than it would take 99% of players to accomplish in 6 weeks?! Please tell me he's aware.

All without a penis! Imagine that!

He knows that on a regular basis you handle FIVE TIMES the warcraft he does? What a clown, seriously.

Yeah... This was all explained in great detail thanks to Suvega's post on the guild officer forums (in which the 84 AP delta was compared to LW drums). I was the popular choice by the officers -- only the guild leader and the guy who was friends with the other shaman did not want me as the main raiding shaman. However, the guild leader is the one who does the /invites, and forms the raid composition each day. Suvega had been hint hint, nudge nudging him to put me in the raid but I was consistenly being sidelined. I didn't even get an /invite for BT yesterday, but by then I had already made my decision.

I mass /gquit on all of my characters already, and I heard from two sources and Suvega doesn't deny the possibility that, despite my being decided as the better shaman both mathematically (via LW drums) and through my 4-5 months of guild loyalty already shown -- the guild leader wants men. Ironically enough our guild isn't DEVOID of females, but they're only in spots where there isn't a possibility of finding an equivalentaly geared male (i.e. they're both shadowpriests, and there are no BT/Hyjal geared male shadowpriests available).

I have some old friends who aren't on such cutting-edge raiding content for our server that have been wanting me around for some time now. so I'm not exactly left in the dust. However, the enhancement gear I collected isn't really going to find itself much use.


On a total side-note, the guild leader has a habit of making promises and not keeping them. Yesterday the offhand warglaives dropped from Illidan, and I guess he had promised one of our tanking warriors that they would get the next drop. Of course, it was more logical to give it to a DPS class that would actually benefit the raid, which was what was actually done, but you really shouldn't make hasty promises to your MT. We had two of our tanks QQ'ing for an hour before they could actually loot the warglaive the the rogue. Both were threatening to gamequit. :P

[Vyndree]

I'm sure this post will be met with some degree of criticism.

Personally, I avoid guilds with girls in.

Reasoning behind it, is that I hate unnessecary drama and I feel that in the guilds I have belonged to where girls have been involved, that is where it stems from.

While that's understandable in some fashion, I just want to make sure you realize that this "drama" you're trying to avoid most likely did not stem with the girl. It's the "immature boys" that you're trying to avoid.

Which, of course, you're going to continue to have. But instead of QQing about some girl they'll be QQing about loot distribution and DKP and "why did I not get an invite to the raid?!" and then ninja-afk'ing in the middle of a pull and yelling mass profanities and chuck norris jokes in /gchat.

So, I guess what I'm saying is -- by avoiding the females in order to avoid the drama that immature boys have when they're near them, you're really trying to avoid the immature boys. And since you're really not avoiding the immature boys at all..... get my drift?


Besides, I had been in this guild 4-5 months as "friend status" and caused no major fuss. Nor did the other few females in that guild. In fact, our MT's and OT's cause more drama between themselves than I can ever imagine causing.

[Majestic_Clown]

I love having girls in guild :D

One of the core raid leaders is a women and she takes no shit!

[Gallo]

I love having girls in guild :D

One of the core raid leaders is a women and she takes no shit!

I /agree. Theres only so much I can handle of hearing nothing but teenage boys on vent. /wrists

[Vyndree]

With Vent, it's hard to hide the fact that we're female but if you didn't know the player behind the screen was a female, I don't think it would make a difference. Are you telling me that if you met a phenomenal healer/MT/DPS who rocked everyone's socks off, you'd just leave that guild when you found out it was a female? What if there were a couple high end female raiders? We've already proven that we can run with the boys so why not just give us a chance?

I'm not necessarily sure that's the fact with this guild. The problem comes when you have to relatively equivalent options, but one is a male player behind the keyboard and the other is a female player.

We have a couple females in the guild -- a warlock and a couple shadowpriests. But if there EVER is a male of that class with near equivalent gear for the raid instance we're going to, the females will be benched.


In any case, I am not a big chatty ventrilo person, and it's a known thing with the people I play with. I speak only when it's an emergency -- like I've pulled aggro or done something stupid. (See? I told you I don't speak often. Mwahahaha)
When it's just chit-chat time, I keep my voice out of the equation. I get asked a question pre-pull? I type my response in /raid.

I like being mistaken for just "one of the guys". When they realize I'm not going to cry at their dirty jokes or make them feel uncomfortable, it's alot easier to get past the "she's a GIRL?!" phase and get straight into the "damn, you're a good player" part. I pride myself on the levels I can push to. Prior to WoW I was a competitive guild wars player, and with me as a core player in our guild vs guild battles we made it to the top 100. When I put my mind to something, I don't play around.



In the end, if a guild snubs me because of something that I can't control nor want to, it's their loss.

[Eteocles]

Two words Wilbur: SAUSAGE FEST.

I'd call him a hypocrite if he gave a TANK one of the best offhands in the game. The tank wants it because it's shiny and orange...in a raid guild you simply don't have an offspec especially when it comes to raid loot until the primary specs get theirs; giving a tank a warglaive...lol; anyways I say he'd be a hypocrite for citing AP vs Drums then giving a freakin awesome offhand to anything but a Rogue(or Fury Warr if he'd use it right; if a hunter so much as speaks up for it I'd smack him into next week if a melee needed it first).

It's a dps weapon and when it comes to raid loot, you gear for your primary long-term job first. Exceptions may happen but for the most part that's how most guilds that're capable of getting to illidan do it lol; I COULD use healing and feral pieces since I do end up temp-specing to OT or gear-switching to offheal but my main longterm goal is pewpewpew so I stick to gear that benefits my main goals of dmg/hit/crit/haste. Mr. Tank needs to learn to keep a Shield in his offhand, not a giant green blade.(and yes, I do understand he "could" use it to farm/pvp out of raid time, but that's why I emphasized the whole "main raid spec first" bit above; if you're in a progression raiding guild, they're worried about your gear being setup for raid progression, not farming or pvp)

[Vyndree]

It's a dps weapon and when it comes to raid loot, you gear for your primary long-term job first. Exceptions may happen but for the most part that's how most guilds that're capable of getting to illidan do it lol; I COULD use healing and feral pieces since I do end up temp-specing to OT or gear-switching to offheal but my main longterm goal is pewpewpew so I stick to gear that benefits my main goals of dmg/hit/crit/haste. Mr. Tank needs to learn to keep a Shield in his offhand, not a giant green blade.(and yes, I do understand he "could" use it to farm/pvp out of raid time, but that's why I emphasized the whole "main raid spec first" bit above; if you're in a progression raiding guild, they're worried about your gear being setup for raid progression, not farming or pvp)

I totally agree and if I had any decision in the loot distribution, it would have gone to the rogue. (which it did, btw, and the rogue is very happy)

What I disagree with is the GL's use of promises to the MT/OT that he clearly wasn't intending to keep. He uses these promises when there are any sort of argument that he just wants to get people to stfu about. Which is probably why he let people believe that I would be the main enhancement shaman. He just wanted to shut people up until the next raid, but was clearly intending to take the other shaman and bench me regardless.

[Eteocles]

Yeah...that guild leader sucks, you're better off away from him :p Poor Suv being stuck there still though(I assume since you said only you gquit); I wouldn't have stuck around either, he's just full of shit and needs to learn girl gamers are just guys with boobs(lol)

On a more topic-related note, who DID PM you about the original arena stuff? Mostly curious, you can not say if you prefer to avoid witch hunts

[Vyndree]

Yeah...that guild leader sucks, you're better off away from him :p Poor Suv being stuck there still though(I assume since you said only you gquit); I wouldn't have stuck around either, he's just full of shit and needs to learn girl gamers are just guys with boobs(lol)

There really aren't many other options for raiding at that level. Our server is kinda left in the dust when it comes to progression. Suvega is aware of the mistakes in the guild and I've asked him what would happen if he ended up getting his short end of the stick from the Guild Leader, and he's prepared to stick with it up until that happens. Right now he's a guild officer (which doesn't mean much since the GL can effectively veto anything you say) and he's in a place where he can see Sunwell content.


On a more topic-related note, who DID PM you about the original arena stuff? Mostly curious, you can not say if you prefer to avoid witch hunts

Eh, I'd rather not. You of all people should know that the community would likely lynch that person, and I really apologize for the flak you had to deal with while I was taking a break.

In any case, it has been handled appropriately. :)


....jeez I sound like a blue from the CSF forum.

[Eteocles]

Hah not a problem, I covered myself well enough and yeah I understand why you'd rather not :p

[Ðeceased]

While that's understandable in some fashion, I just want to make sure you realize that this "drama" you're trying to avoid most likely did not stem with the girl. It's the "immature boys" that you're trying to avoid.

Which, of course, you're going to continue to have. But instead of QQing about some girl they'll be QQing about loot distribution and DKP and "why did I not get an invite to the raid?!" and then ninja-afk'ing in the middle of a pull and yelling mass profanities and chuck norris jokes in /gchat.

So, I guess what I'm saying is -- by avoiding the females in order to avoid the drama that immature boys have when they're near them, you're really trying to avoid the immature boys. And since you're really not avoiding the immature boys at all..... get my drift?


Besides, I had been in this guild 4-5 months as "friend status" and caused no major fuss. Nor did the other few females in that guild. In fact, our MT's and OT's cause more drama between themselves than I can ever imagine causing.

Vyn, I'm rly sorry to hear about all that, but also very glad to hear you're out of that place (pitty about all that time and energy wasted :S). That GM is a complete asshat.

as for this whole drama thing. I have to side with Vyn on her last point. From personal experience I don't think I would want to be in a guild that was all male. We have several female players in it, officers and regular members/raiders, and I don't think I've come across a more sedate and friendly bunch (in WoW at least - this webby is a close second. altho there are some of you out there with bees under your bonnet ^^). My guild has got very good at weeding out trouble makers (to some degree of tolerance) and most of that can be solely attributed to having female members.
Anyone showing them little respect, simply for them being female doesn't last very long. Not because we are overprotective (altho that reason alone, is justification for a boot imo), but because those same ppl often show similar trends in other aspects of their personality, and eventually leave, through sheer frustration at how many of us are, or because they are eventually booted for being asses. Most of the drama that is ever caused in our guild, is by those members. Fortunately we have very few, if at all.

I have heard of quite a few guild breakups over my wow time, where at the heart of the split a girl is involved in some capacity or another. But I think that is often emphasised to a disproportionate degree, simply because many players still think of female gamers as something of a rarity and therefore feel the need to highlight that fact.

Oh and a final note. that Nihilum thing was a joke! I do find it rather amusing to be honest how that was covered tho.


"NIHILUM don't accept girls into their guild!!"It was a joke btw..



EDIT: I should rly learn to proof read my posts.. think there's 10+ mistakes i had to correct :S

[Ðeceased]

....jeez I sound like a blue from the CSF forum.

see what happens when you hang out with them so much!!!

[Eteocles]

(in WoW at least - this webby is a close second. altho there are some of you out there with bees under your bonnet ).

They're wasps, not bees damnit!(lol ;) )

[Mak]

like being mistaken for just "one of the guys". When they realize I'm not going to cry at their dirty jokes or make them feel uncomfortable, it's alot easier to get past the "she's a GIRL?!" phase and get straight into the "damn, you're a good player" part. I pride myself on the levels I can push to. Prior to WoW I was a competitive guild wars player, and with me as a core player in our guild vs guild battles we made it to the top 100. When I put my mind to something, I don't play around.

I hear ya. I just recently had someone find out I was a girl and said he was going to change all the jokes. Seriously, don't spare me. It's not like I haven't experienced it before and can't handle it. I have had mostly positive responses on the rare occasion I announce myself as female. This one guy admitted to testing me to see if I was in fact a guy. He said something ending with 'man' and of course, I didn't correct him. He was shocked to find out I was a female. Unless explicitly asked, I will let people believe I'm a guy. Whatever they want to think, go for it.

And I'm glad to hear that Nilithum thing was a joke. It had me pretty pissed that day but since I've calmed down. And thanks to all you, I know it wasn't real. /cheer

[Eteocles]

You're a girl Mak?! OHSHI-...kidding ;p(I really didn't realize/remember you were though but that doesn't matter :P)

That "test" the guy gave you was stupid...just saying "man" at the end doesn't mean anything, hell stoner stereotypes(aka Cheech n Chong) end half the things they say with ", man." anyways. Pardon the example ladies, but it's the irony of Cheech saying something like "Nice tits, man" :P(was the first contradicting example that came to mind, hey I'm a guy whaddya expect :p); bottom line is it isn't a valid test lol

There are quite a few chicks who go around doing the same thing guys do...pretending to be the opposite gender(usually to avoid the "UR A GIRL LOL TITS OR GTFO" drama though not always) too so who knows how many there really are :p It's an interesting bit to think about though, for all you know that undead rogue missing his jaw that ganked you could be some hot chick that's lol'ing at you as she cannibalizes your corpse :P

[Mak]

You're a girl Mak?! OHSHI-...kidding ;p(I really didn't realize/remember you were though but that doesn't matter :P)

That "test" the guy gave you was stupid...just saying "man" at the end doesn't mean anything, hell stoner stereotypes(aka Cheech n Chong) end half the things they say with ", man." anyways. Pardon the example ladies, but it's the irony of Cheech saying something like "Nice tits, man" :P(was the first contradicting example that came to mind, hey I'm a guy whaddya expect :p); bottom line is it isn't a valid test lol

There are quite a few chicks who go around doing the same thing guys do...pretending to be the opposite gender(usually to avoid the "UR A GIRL LOL TITS OR GTFO" drama though not always) too so who knows how many there really are :p It's an interesting bit to think about though, for all you know that undead rogue missing his jaw that ganked you could be some hot chick that's lol'ing at you as she cannibalizes your corpse :P
Lol, yup, but don't worry, I just recently announced it here. You didn't miss much.

And...I actually am planning on playing the opposite gender in a few of my future crews. I want to run a BE female priest with 2x male Tauren Shaman, 2x male Tauren Druids. I think it would look awesome. The biggest race with the smallest. And I have two male NEs in my crew of 5x druids. I can't help it, I think they're cute.

I have to say I will never forget the first time I met a guy playing a girl character. I was like 'what?!' but lately, it's become the norm. I just don't think I'll ever get it.

[Eteocles]

KSboxer had a few chicas in his group too when he came to give me linen bags when I rolled my Zerglings...kinda stuck out but at the same time it's less "cloneish" than most people easily spot so it can be a good thing as well as a nice variety change; I however like being a bunch of clones, so I can yell things like "WE ARE THE BOOMKIN. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. YOUR CLASSOGICAL UNIQUENESS WILL BE ASSIMILATED INTO THE DRUID'S." ;D

[pipakin]

I've got a male tank character leading my group of 1 male and 3 females. Does that say something about my personality? I think I might be a closet patriarchist...

lol

BTW, most of the male casting animations are...strange. I had a male ngiht elf druid once and couldn't stand the seizure/constipation casting pose.

[Maxion]

The best reasoning I ever heard for the whole "playing as the opposite sex" thing was:

"If I'm gonna spend this much time looking at a butt, it better be one of the opposite sex." (or whatever your preference is)

[Silly Gooooose]

As for those.. well, I fail to think of a word for that bunch in the guild.. :cursing:
Kinda feel sorry for that poor shammy that's stuck between you and the guild :pinch: I'd be very worried to get on the wrong side of either of you!



I am a girl. And girls cannot perform in video games at the same level as men.



Well Scientology has proven it to be true.

[elo]

This thread has made it into the runnings for longest through on the forum, keep it up!

[Vyndree]

This thread has made it into the runnings for longest through on the forum, keep it up!

It already beat our setup pic thread ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=1455&pageNo=1')?! 8|

[Dor]

This thread has made it into the runnings for longest through on the forum, keep it up!

It already beat our setup pic thread ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=1455&pageNo=1')?! 8|


.....and now I have posted in it so it's epic :thumbsup:

[Boylston]

Reasoning behind it, is that I hate unnessecary drama and I feel that in the guilds I have belonged to where girls have been involved, that is where it stems from.Wilbur-- This is ridiculous. Guild drama comes from a variety of sources. In the guild I run, most of the drama has been caused by Tanks. It's not going to stop me from ever inviting tanks into the guild any more.


I am a girl. And girls cannot perform in video games at the same level as men.Vyndree, you're a woman at this point. There's a big difference.

[Tdog]

LOL...wow...

I pretty much ignored this whole thread on purpose till now. I was just bored enough to actually read through it all...

@Vydree
First off, I have been in enough guilds to know that if that retarded asshat of a GL doesn't soon change his ways I guarantee that that guild will in the not too distant future either end in a very drama filled /gdisband or be more or less completely reorganized due to losing too many members and the inability to keep new ones. Inner guild drama always has been and always will be the #1 guild killer. People will only take crap from idiots for so long before realizing that they don't have to and decide that they aren't going to! Even though it sucks to put so much into a guild and leave it in a bitter ending, you definitely made the right choice. If you have any questions about that at all DON'T!!! You'll be happier in the end.

While I see people use it far too often and I don't think it should be used a the first sign of a disagreement, Blizzard did make a very smart move in making server transfers available. You said you are going to a friend's guild which I hope works out well for you. But if it doesn't and you are looking for a guild more on your level there are plenty of options out there with guild leaders and officers that don't have such ignorant narrow views. Just because that guild might of had a ton of the server first guilds doesn't mean they are the only guild out there in your raiding experience level and don't feel like you need to take someone like that's BS.

/rant on

@the girl vs. boy issue
Secondly, Are some of you ppl effing kidding me? Are we back in the 6th grade? Some ppl actually suggesting that some of the problems stem from the girls being there some even going so far the other way to suggest it's the boys? Umm ...HI!!! It has absolutely nothing to do with gender! It has absolutely everything to do with immaturity! Not immaturity of boys, or of girls, but PEOPLE! both of whom may be boys or girls! It's also about ignorance! It is infact the exact same reason we as multiboxers get flamed every single day! Ignorant, Immature people who don't have a clue wtf they are talking about and don't care to know wtf they are talking about. They just want to point their fingers at the seemingly easy target and say "They are the cause of our problems."

In my last guild our best druid tank was a girl, but do you think being a girl had anything to do with her being a good player? NO!!! She wasn't a girl who was a good player, she was a good player who just happened to be a girl! Being a girl however didn't have the first thing to do with her game play. Some of the worst players I have seen play this game have been male, does that mean anything at all? Of course not it just so happens that the worst players I have yet to see were male...

@Forum censorship and trimming arguements
Thirdly and Finally, I think it can be safely assumed that most of us on this forums are Americans. Some are having issues with moderations and are claiming "Free speech". You people need to understand this very well. This, the forums and the internet, is NOT America. No you don't have freedom of speech here. Yes you can be censored out and banned. This is their forum that they have given you the privilege of joining. If you choose to not obey their rules, thats your choice, however you can expect to get moderated and even booted out.

I for one appreciate that this isn't the WoW forums. I honestly have looked at the WoW forums 3 times since I have joined this community 2 months ago and I for sure as hell don't want it to become that...

/rant off

[Gadaí]

On a side note.....

If you examine the whole female/male thing in WoW (or in gaming/life) then, from a scientific standpoint, any activity involving micromanagement of a number of tasks or high level multitasking of 3+ activities then biology (and more specifically neurology) favours females over males in terms of aptitude to perform in those circumstances. This is due to the level of communication between the two divisions of the of the brain being different and affecting the types of activities which males and females are genetically predisposed to be more competent at. Bear in mind that these are predispositions and that through practice/etc males and females can compete equally in the different areas which they would have a biological disadvantage in.

Short form version of the above:

Females are naturally more disposed to be good at anything requiring attention being paid to multiple different tasks or criteria simultaneously - which could describe almost every role in WoW. Males can become as good through practice.

[Mak]

The best reasoning I ever heard for the whole "playing as the opposite sex" thing was:

"If I'm gonna spend this much time looking at a butt, it better be one of the opposite sex." (or whatever your preference is)

Ha, I've heard that too but I still remain confused. I guess people have to have their own reasoning.

[Tamu]

Glad to have you back, V. Sorry to learn about your guild problems, though. I would definitely not stick around with that guild if I had gone through your experience, especially after I read some comments from a pally named Athore who applied to one of the guilds on Garithos.

[Vyndree]

Glad to have you back, V. Sorry to learn about your guild problems, though. I would definitely not stick around with that guild if I had gone through your experience, especially after I read some comments from a pally named Athore who applied to one of the guilds on Garithos.

You know Athore? Small world!

Suvega likes to call him "Pro-thore" in a very sarcastic manner.

[Boylston]

Thanks to all of you who replied, but I have already found a suitable Vyndree and am no longer looking for one.

Thank you,

Boylston

[Tamu]

Glad to have you back, V. Sorry to learn about your guild problems, though. I would definitely not stick around with that guild if I had gone through your experience, especially after I read some comments from a pally named Athore who applied to one of the guilds on Garithos.

You know Athore? Small world!

Suvega likes to call him "Pro-thore" in a very sarcastic manner.No I don't know him, I just noticed that he applied to a guild I still have friends in and when I looked at his armory I noticed that he was in a guild I'd heard of before. I finally remembered that it was the guild you and Suvega are in. They denied his app, btw. He didn't do a good job of selling himself as a favorable guild-mate.

[Kel]

girls cannot perform in video games at the same level as men.
Grrrr I hate people like this.

I've never tried to hide being female, at the same time I don't shove it anyone's face either, to me the gender of the person playing the character isn't important. I care more about their attitude, personality and skill. Luckily I've only had one person say this to me in my 2 years of playing wow, and that was someone at level 10 to my (second) level 60 character. But he was generally an immature brat and ended up getting kicked out of my guild at the time (not soon enough for my liking, but the GL was one of those people who hopes everyone will get along) and then pretty much got kicked out of every other guild he joined all the way up to 70.

Luckily my current guild is nice because:
a) My bfs the GL
b) we have an 18+ age limit (I'm not saying that younger people can't be more mature or vice versa, but I think it helps us get less annoying wanks in the guild). I think our marketing as a 'mature' guild helps encourage more applications from 'mature' people.
c) we have a fairly large number of active females in the guild (+1 if you include a male guildie who's decided he's a teenage girl), most with mics, so it's not a case of 'omg there's a gurl here!11!!!!!11!'

Female gamers are rarer, but that's not because they are any worse at the game than males. I wish people would judge others on attributes that actually matter to the situation in hand, rather than steretypes which have no real relevance in a game environment.

[Vyndree]

I'm having more fun times with a spammer harassing me via blog comments. I hate to have to censor him by removing all of his oh-so-lovely posts, so instead I provided a link to them and his IP address for all to see. ;)

http://vboxing.net/blog/webs.php/2008/05/01/dear-spammer ('http://vboxing.net/blog/webs.php/2008/05/01/dear-spammer')


Enjoy the trash that is the intarwebz and the reason why Vyndree does in fact need to take breaks from these kinds of people.

[Maz]

Lulz!

[Zaelar]

b) we have an 18+ age limit

I wish people would judge others on attributes that actually matter to the situation in hand, rather than steretypes which have no real relevance in a game environment.

Hypocrite. You could replace age with gender(with female = younger) and you have the exact same situation. Younger will generally be worse than older, and female will generally be worse than male. I have no statistics(I could make some up if you'd like) for either of these, but from my experience they both hold true. It's prejudice to use either as a rule for who can join unless there is a 0% chance that one side will be able to meet the performance requirements, which doesn't happen in wow. Bullshit requirements that have no relevance don't count, which is the whole point.

PS if you want mature players just require a 4 year college degree.

[Djarid]

I don't agree, admittedly the posted reason for the 18+ rule is for maturity in members but I think that an 18+ rule is important in some guilds.

I was an officer in a guild in the distant past (1.8) and we had huge guild drama because we had minors in the ranks and the behaviour in GC was unsuitable for that audience. If that guild had an 18+ rule then this would not have been an issue.

[Ðeceased]

Hypocrite. You could replace age with gender(with female = younger) and you have the exact same situation. Younger will generally be worse than older, and female will generally be worse than male. I have no statistics(I could make some up if you'd like) for either of these, but from my experience they both hold true. It's prejudice to use either as a rule for who can join unless there is a 0% chance that one side will be able to meet the performance requirements, which doesn't happen in wow. Bullshit requirements that have no relevance don't count, which is the whole point.

PS if you want mature players just require a 4 year college degree.

While I agree that rule is somewhat hypocritical there are added reasons why this might be implemented, aside from not wanting immature players around (immature=younger? not always imo)

the 18+ rule is often also implemented to provide a guild with a means of expression which would otherwise have to be curtailed in the presence of -18. We are talking; language, inappropriate conversational topics etcetc and whilst many a -18 are likely to dispute that as an adequate or valid reason for a declined application or exclusion from a guild, it is for their protection and protection for their current guild members.

That is not to say I agree with it. Personally I disagree with any exclusion (except for under 12s - due to that being the games player age!) based on a players age, sex, race or nationality, to name but a few. However i will make an exception for those being nublets, asshats and otherwise offensive or argumentative for no reason but to be such.


(+1 if you include a male guildie who's decided he's a teenage girl)
:pinch:

Edit: gah soz Djarid - my brain hasn't been working recently and ur post past me by. take mine as a confirmation of your own :pinch:

[Yamio]

/throws in two cents

Sorry, but having a degree doesn't make you a grownup, nor does it automatically make you intelligent. I'm sure most of us have ran into people with degrees who've seriously made you think they wasted money on their education.

IMO having a degree only means you have the tenacity to stay with something until completion. Other than that a degree means nothing when speaking of someone's level of maturity.

[Ðeceased]

I'm having more fun times with a spammer harassing me via blog comments. I hate to have to censor him by removing all of his oh-so-lovely posts, so instead I provided a link to them and his IP address for all to see. ;)

http://vboxing.net/blog/webs.php/2008/05/01/dear-spammer ('http://vboxing.net/blog/webs.php/2008/05/01/dear-spammer')

Enjoy the trash that is the intarwebz and the reason why Vyndree does in fact need to take breaks from these kinds of people.

/facepalm

some ppl are just silly

I feel some hacking coming on :P
Ð's to do list:

1) New entry: learn how to hack
2) become a billionaire
3) use most of those billions to help with world issues (noble cause :pinch: )
4) use the leftover billions to develop 4 clones of myself and equip all of us with long ranged cattle prods

[Ðeceased]

/throws in two cents

Sorry, but having a degree doesn't make you a grownup, nor does it automatically make you intelligent. I'm sure most of us have ran into people with degrees who've seriously made you think they wasted money on their education.

IMO having a degree only means you have the tenacity to stay with something until completion. Other than that a degree means nothing when speaking of someone's level of maturity.

fully agree ^^ take the newest batch on "The Apprentice UK" !!!!

[Maz]

I'm sure most of us have ran into people with degrees who've seriously made you think they wasted money on their education.
Do you want fries with that?

[Mak]

I'm having more fun times with a spammer harassing me via blog comments. I hate to have to censor him by removing all of his oh-so-lovely posts, so instead I provided a link to them and his IP address for all to see. ;)

http://vboxing.net/blog/webs.php/2008/05/01/dear-spammer


Enjoy the trash that is the intarwebz and the reason why Vyndree does in fact need to take breaks from these kinds of people./cheer. That's awesome that you posted that. And funny that he/she thought they could hide. Gotta love how rejects waste their time.

[Gadzooks]

I'm having more fun times with a spammer harassing me via blog comments. I hate to have to censor him by removing all of his oh-so-lovely posts, so instead I provided a link to them and his IP address for all to see. ;)

http://vboxing.net/blog/webs.php/2008/05/01/dear-spammer


Enjoy the trash that is the intarwebz and the reason why Vyndree does in fact need to take breaks from these kinds of people./cheer. That's awesome that you posted that. And funny that he/she thought they could hide. Gotta love how rejects waste their time.It's one of the mouthbreathers from the WoW forums - they're the only ones who are that obsessed with multi-boxing. If they put as much effort into trying MBing asthey do attacking it, they'd have a lot more fun.

[Djarid]

LOL I agree about degrees ;) For me it meant you hard to work hard to prove you weren't an asshat like most of the graduates I experienced (to be fair it is only really the freshly graduated that were the asshats) coming out of uni with their 5 year old methods and technology thinking that their ideas are all new and shiny ;)

In all fairness, it was the same in the Army, with the guys coming out after 2 years of training, It isn't a degree thing, it is anyone fresh from the educational establishment ;)

[Vyndicated]

Aww poor Vynd

QQ some more

:)

Let the flamming begin.

[Eteocles]

I smell a ban incoming

[Vyndree]

I smell a ban incoming

As do I. ;)

It's amazing that one can go through the effort of posting on nearly every page on my blog, getting their hands on an IP proxy (which, I would cackle with glee if it came with its own keylogger), and creating an e-mail validated forum account...... but not go through the effort of using a spell checker.

I'm touched. Really.



And it's more likely the little troll came from these forums, since he made a reference to my forum avatar. I'd be interested to see what'd come up if the IP addresses of the forum users were cross-referenced with the one from my blog. ;)

[Tonuss]

Personally, I avoid guilds with girls in.

Reasoning behind it, is that I hate unnessecary drama and I feel that in the guilds I have belonged to where girls have been involved, that is where it stems from.I agree, although I don't blame the girls alone. Girls (and by girls, I mean just that-- girls and young ladies) tend to be more emotional than boys and they are less afraid of displaying their emotions than boys and young men are. Boys and young men, on the other hand, act like what they are. And that means that they'll give girls and young ladies LOTS of attention and they can become pretty biased when there is a girl involved in anything, even if it's minor.

I would assume that this is why many of the successful raiding guilds put applicants (male or female) through a fairly rigorous process to determine how mature (or immature) they are and how well they'll get along with the guild. A mature female is not going to be any trouble for a guild, and neither is a mature male. An immature female can create considerable problems, especially if she's a drama queen. An immature male can also create problems, especially if HE'S a drama queen.

We have a LOT of females in our guild. Most are married and their husbands are also guildies, most are adults and act like it (at least where drama is concerned :p ). Of course, being a casual guild means that we don't have that competitive atmosphere that can set people off, so one potential cause of trouble is not present. And the only girl we had was the daughter of one of the couples, and she was quite mature for a 15-year-old. And since we're casual and not a progression guild, we can kick immature people quickly and without worrying about how it affects our progress.

I guess this is a lot of text to point out that putting young men and young ladies into a group together can be a recipe for disaster (and for high ratings if you make it a reality TV show).

[Basilikos]

Aww poor Vynd

QQ some more

:)

Let the flamming begin.

Oh, God. Just...

God.

[Zaelar]

The degree thing was a joke. It's something else that doesn't have anything to do with the problem.

How can you say something isn't suitable for anyone under 18? What about one day under? If yes, two days? Keep going until you stop saying yes, and then what is so magical about that particular age? It should be 18 and one week. It takes a week of maturity to actually be mature, but that means that you aren't mature during that week so it would have to be another week to get used to it...

And before you post that being 18 is a rough idea, so is every other generalization. 18 isn't the age used everywhere in the world, so someone has to be wrong.

[Vyndree]

And before you post that being 18 is a rough idea, so is every other generalization. 18 isn't the age used everywhere in the world, so someone has to be wrong.

I think most of the people touting the "18+" are talking about US-WoW, which you can argue the generalization would be "US adult = 18 therefore be a legal adult in your country of origin".

The day you become a legal adult in your country is the day you become accountable for your own choices. Which means if people start talking about controversial things in ventrilo/gchat/whatever they're not going to get some kid's mom aggro because the kid didn't ask mommy's permission before joining an adult-language guild.


And I'm personally not saying it has anything to do with maturity from my standpoint. My new guild has plenty of under-18 folks who are excellent players and we have no problems with. But we have to realize that they're less in control of what their schedule looks like, and if their parents decide they're going to summer school or whatever we've lost them almost the entire summer.

[Boylston]

The guild I run has a "must have career" rule. We make an odd exception for a graduate student or two at times...

Then again, some of us have been playing MMOs together since about 1999. Call us old!

[keyclone]

when you can claim to have multi-boxed net hack or rogue... then they can call you old .. i'd still call you a young whipper snapper :D

[Boylston]

I think a Two-Terminal-ed a dikuMUD once.... Does that count?

[Ðeceased]

How can you say something isn't suitable for anyone under 18? What about one day under? If yes, two days? Keep going until you stop saying yes, and then what is so magical about that particular age? It should be 18 and one week. It takes a week of maturity to actually be mature, but that means that you aren't mature during that week so it would have to be another week to get used to it...

And before you post that being 18 is a rough idea, so is every other generalization. 18 isn't the age used everywhere in the world, so someone has to be wrong.

As Vyn said, the 18 rule is all about being officially classed as an adult. That means rights to just about everything (except what is illegal ofc), but also subject to all laws without leniency (which you are entitled to as a minor).
Whilst for many things it may be seen as unfair and unjust (I myself felt that when I was a teenager - oh god I sound old now), It is that official classification, that defines the 18+ rule. It wouldn't matter officially if you were 1 day shy of 18, you would still be treated as a minor (or should at least, altho it is often partially down to the judge in question).

When looking at the vast mix of players on the EU servers, where this ages changes vastly from country to country, it is often generally accepted that 18 is the standard entry age into adulthood.

There is something we need to distinguish here btw. the 18+ rule does not apply to mental maturity, simply maturity.
There are many under 18s way, way more mature mentally, then some adults. You know, the whole scenario where kids are nearly forced to grow up fast in order to cope and face the situations they are in. and then the opposite Big Kid scenario where you have immature adults all the way to 80/90 years of age. And yet the age restriction should apply in all cases (except in cases where this restriction detrimentally impacts that person’s life and where it would not simply be a denial of a luxury).

It is unfortunate (as I felt when I was 17) that for instance, that last year I still was excluded from so many things, even tho I felt "Adults" around me were so childish in comparison. It is only now, ironically, that I am an "adult" that I realise it has nothing to do with mental maturity.

When it comes to guilds adopting this rule, as stated before it is for the protection of those under 18 and their guild members.
It is however regrettable that mental maturity is quite strongly tied to actual age (not entirely I might add), and is therefore used as a simultaneous filter do avoid it.

[Poolboy]

So weird that this thread, 170 comments ago, started 'here', but is now............................................... .................................................. .... 'here'

lulz @ bouncing topic.

[Zaelar]

It is however regrettable that mental maturity is quite strongly tied to actual age (not entirely I might add), and is therefore used as a simultaneous filter do avoid it.

This is my point. Because it isn't entirely tied to age using age as a filter is prejudice. Just semantics, but mental maturity is only tied to age on a personal level. On a global level, just as you said, there are 10 year olds that ore more mature than 40 year olds and vice versa.

By "simply maturity", are you referring to physical maturity, ie puberty? Aside from that and mental maturity(what most people are talking about/the only kind that matters for this) I can't think of anything else. Being able to handle talking about controversial or explicit topics is purely mental maturity. It has nothing to do with how old you are. What do we have here? A somewhat controversial topic and we are discussing it without resorting to petty name calling. Our age and maturity outside of mental maturity has nothing to do with it. For all we know someone here could be 11.

As for legality, the law itself is prejudice so I'm not going to argue against an 18+ rule if the only reason for the rule is legality. I'm not trying to argue about what is legal and what isn't. I also don't want to add a debate on laws to this.

A raiding guild only allowing people who can play during certain times is not prejudice and I'm not arguing against anything like that. Vyndree['s guild] said a generalization that younger people are less in control of their schedule than older people, which I'm also not going to argue with, but I will argue against using that information to make a rule. If someone is unable to raid during the summer their age is irrelevant.

Deceased, the scenarios you gave you game don't have anything to do with maturity, just responsibility. Having a lot of responsibility at an early age just means that your mental maturity(among other things) is tested at an earlier age than most people are. Being forced to go through tough times at an earlier age means you need to be mature, while people who don't go through tough times until later in their life don't need to be, but they still can be. I'm saying that having a requirement of going through tough times at an early age because they will be mature is bad. Any other reason is either irrelevant or just plain wrong, so having the requirement at all is bad.

[Vyndree]

Because it isn't entirely tied to age using age as a filter is prejudice. Just semantics, but mental maturity is only tied to age on a personal level. On a global level, just as you said, there are 10 year olds that ore more mature than 40 year olds and vice versa.

...

As for legality, the law itself is prejudice so I'm not going to argue against an 18+ rule if the only reason for the rule is legality. I'm not trying to argue about what is legal and what isn't. I also don't want to add a debate on laws to this.

In that case, we can agree that the argument over limiting guild membership using the legal adult age for whatever country of origin is the cause of the upset. And since we don't really have control over the legal system's choices on who is adult and why, I find guilds who choose to use this rule acceptable.

In that case, we're not seeing a case of age discrimination from the guilds if they really mean to say "legal adult". Because of this, it can't really be compared to gender discrimination which (at least in the US) is not part of any law.

[Ramesses]

I'm sure this post will be met with some degree of criticism.

Personally, I avoid guilds with girls in.

Reasoning behind it, is that I hate unnessecary drama and I feel that in the guilds I have belonged to where girls have been involved, that is where it stems from.

I'd say the number of girls playing at the Highest levels of WoW are probably 1/50? 1/100? Smurfette in Smurf village ratios, along with that you have the hordes of salivating hormone ridden teenagers, drama is usually inevitable.

Then theres the jealousy, etc etc.

I think most of the issue stems from game design. Most games are designed for an adolescant male audience, there aren't a huge amount of *extremely* popular games that are targetted at girls.

Its out of MMOs that you see even less girls, the FPS genre for instance, arguably *THE* most competitive around, I've never seen a girl on the podium recieving an award at Quakecon who hasn't been competing in the girl events. Girls aren't competitive in the high-end yet, but when they are, god help us all ;)I should criticize but I will restrain myself =P

In all honestly, I can hear your point. The best guild in the world Nilithum (sp?) doesn't recruit women b/c of the drama. That's maybe another reason why I avoid guilds. I have had WoW drama before because of jealousy and it escalated into RL (I knew them) and it wasn't pleasant. It has caused me to no longer play my first two 70s because I refuse to deal with the crap that comes with it (or with them). Another reason why I re-rolled (a 70 mage) and am now five-boxing it. It was basically an issue where they couldn't separate the game from reality.

For me, the drama found me. I didn't start it or do anything (that I know of) but it comes with the territory I guess of being a female in an overly male virtual world. Does it bother me? Heck yea it does but the truth is the truth. Cheers to the guilds out there who accept women and the ones that are relatively drama-free (one day I will join you). Everyone causes drama and since there's more males that play this game then females, there's likely more drama causing males in this game. But hey, everyone sees it as they see it.

With Vent, it's hard to hide the fact that we're female but if you didn't know the player behind the screen was a female, I don't think it would make a difference. Are you telling me that if you met a phenomenal healer/MT/DPS who rocked everyone's socks off, you'd just leave that guild when you found out it was a female? What if there were a couple high end female raiders? We've already proven that we can run with the boys so why not just give us a chance?

Revealing ourselves by telling someone or through voice ruins it all but we shouldn't have to hide. A lot of us do though ( I did until I came here). I read an article where a girl is MT for a high raiding guild on a male Tauren warrior so people wouldn't hit on her. It isn’t fair but we don't have a choice yet.

I think it all comes down to how the guild leader handles it. But please, don't blame us females for all the drama. Blame those, such as Vyn's GL, who think we're not as good as them. They are the reason there is drama. Their little world is made whole by breaking something and getting to 'fix' it when in reality; all they do is make it worse.

Hopefully, the more girls that break into gaming, the more accepted it will become. Look at what Vyn has does for this community. Proof right there that we're making progress. This is the 21st century after all. I do hope though that if anyone comes across a great guild, you'll give it a chance instead of not joining because there are females. I bet you'll meet some pretty kick ass girls, who can melt your face off =P

Before I switched realms, I was in a guild with a female GL for two years. She exhibited none of the traits you describe. Any drama in that guild came strictly from the males.

We were a pretty mature guild; almost zero younger members with most players being between 20 and 40 (strangely bunched at either end of that range with little in between).

Prior to that I was in a guild that was co-lead by a man and wife team. My closest friend in that guild was also female.

The women I've met in WoW have very much enriched the experience for me.I definitely prefer running with older people who have a bit more understanding. And the WoW couples are adorable and it's cool when they run a guild together. I have definitely heard tons of positive responses to female gamers. Cheers to your guild! Hope your new one is just as awesome!


Interesting points. For me its less about who caused what drama in what guild, are they male, female, hermaphrodite, etc.

The point is: Guilds = drama

Not all, i suppose, good ones are less drama-ridden, but its just part of the territory. Thats why I avoid guilds. The guild I plan to create will be 5 toons, all ME! :) I suppose there could be drama, but more of the unhealthy "multiple personality" variety. Being anti-social in an anti-social game FTW!

In response to people claiming women in guilds cause drama. I am thinking there may be women out there who intentionally seek to inspire drama and dissent in a guild, but I would think they are rare and there is just as high, proportionally, a population of male versions of these trouble-makers.

I think a more accurate statement would be: most men(boys) who play WoW are not mature enough, or cannot handle their emotions/desires enough to have the presence of an intelligent, clever/witty, female guildmate. They get jealous, irrational, and THEY create the drama and issues and then say "its her fault, no women in our guild anymore!"

I'm sorry ladies, and I hate to say it but, what did you expect? Proper rational thought and respect for females in an online MMORPG dominated by adolescent teen boys? They are immature and going through puberty :) OHMIGOSH A GIRL! What do i do...ok ACT COOL! "Yo babe, <insert random immature perverted, and entirely innapropriate comment here>".

Keep in mind most of these youngsters, due to their obvious devotion to the game, have missed out on a key part of growing up. They may never have learned how to even talk to a girl, let alone how to treat one with respect. Now this could be extreme, and please keep in mind im speaking about "THEM" not "US" here at dual-boxing :) Most here seem to be adults/mature, or otherwise respectful. But boy would it be an interesting hypothesis for some sort of psychological development study. Does WoW hinder the development of social skills for those who play it extensively from ages 12-18? ;)

/end tangent - sorry, i do that

[Zaelar]

In that case, we can agree that the argument over limiting guild membership using the legal adult age for whatever country of origin is the cause of the upset.

I don't agree to using the legal adult age for anything other than legal reasons. It is irrelevant otherwise.



b) we have an 18+ age limit (I'm not saying that younger people can't be more mature or vice versa, but I think it helps us get less annoying wanks in the guild). I think our marketing as a 'mature' guild helps encourage more applications from 'mature' people.


Nowhere in the explanation for the rule has anything about legality come up.

How many guilds with 18+ rules do you think have that because they are afraid of getting sued?

[Gadaí]

I think a Two-Terminal-ed a dikuMUD once.... Does that count?
I used to use WinTin and the Zmud for multi-running chars on Diku as well years ago - Gizmo was the mud in question though I originally cut my 'MuD' teeth on MUD and then Mystic Adventures/Dragon Swords. Much good fun and good folk :)

[Vyndree]

How many guilds with 18+ rules do you think have that because they are afraid of getting sued?

Why else would they choose 18 and not 16? 18 and not 19? 18 and not 21?

Pretty random coincidence, don't you think? I don't think it's a conscious decision either -- they choose 18 because that is what the law tells them is a "legal adult". If they chose 17, the 16 year olds would cry foul. If they chose 16, the 15 year olds cry foul. So on, so forth. So why do you see so many 18+ guilds and not 17/16/15+ guilds? Is it just a natural phenomenon that everyone's favorite number is 18?

By choosing 18, they are letting the law decide who is, and who is not, mature enough to be considered a legal adult.

[Bollwerk]

I draw the line at 15 for cute girls, but only if they can keep a secret.

[Zaelar]

They choose 18 because of the generalization that the law spawned. Every time a 17 year old cries foul, a bunch of 19 year olds just say "i more matur the u bcuz i 18". Since it's the same everywhere it's not like they can go somewhere else for support. They are a minority and are being discriminated against.

Any other age has the same problem, it's irrelevant. Age =/ maturity.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

I recall sitting in a bar with some other guys from my base in Germany and watching the 14-year-old "kids" sitting at another table drinking.

[Ðeceased]

I recall sitting in a bar with some other guys from my base in Germany and watching the 14-year-old "kids" sitting at another table drinking.

^^ you would do.. 16 is the legal drinking age for non-spirits and then of course ppl bend the rules a little :P



Deceased, the scenarios you gave you game don't have anything to do with maturity, just responsibility. Having a lot of responsibility at an early age just means that your mental maturity(among other things) is tested at an earlier age than most people are. Being forced to go through tough times at an earlier age means you need to be mature, while people who don't go through tough times until later in their life don't need to be, but they still can be. I'm saying that having a requirement of going through tough times at an early age because they will be mature is bad. Any other reason is either irrelevant or just plain wrong, so having the requirement at all is bad.

I don't think I ever wanted to imply that one should have had to have gone through some terrible ordeal in order to join a guild! I was merely giving an example of someone that would likely have developed mentally to a more mature state. While responsibility, as you rightly put it, is the overwhelming influence over that scenario, it does not lessen it's significance. After all, responsibility is one of the major factors in determining an adult's choices in life; and maturity an acknowledgement through choice, of those responsibilities.
That leads me back to the magic number 18. Whist personal responsibility is somewhat varied from person to person, as a general rule, an adult (over 18 ) will have more responsibilities.
And whilst I accept this is generalising it is nonetheless true (as a generalisation)



They choose 18 because of the generalization that the law spawned. Every time a 17 year old cries foul, a bunch of 19 year olds just say "i more matur the u bcuz i 18". Since it's the same everywhere it's not like they can go somewhere else for support. They are a minority and are being discriminated against.

Any other age has the same problem, it's irrelevant. Age =/ maturity.

whilst there is some truth in this, and some (few) adopt the 18+ rule to have a more mentally mature guild, the vast majority do it to protect under 18s and it's members. It may seem discriminatory and patronising to say 17y'olds need protecting over WoW, but everyone is bound by law to respect just that.
If a guild decides to implement a rule to ensure this is upheld, it is to some extent justified in doing so.

Will this create a sub/over 18 divide in the game? I don't think so. there are plenty of guilds out there that don't implement this rule.

[Zaelar]

I don't think I ever wanted to imply that one should have had to have gone through some terrible ordeal in order to join a guild! I was merely giving an example of someone that would likely have developed mentally to a more mature state. While responsibility, as you rightly put it, is the overwhelming influence over that scenario, it does not lessen it's significance. After all, responsibility is one of the major factors in determining an adult's choices in life; and maturity an acknowledgement through choice, of those responsibilities.
That leads me back to the magic number 18. Whist personal responsibility is somewhat varied from person to person, as a general rule, an adult (over 18) will have more responsibilities.
And whilst I accept this is generalising it is nonetheless true (as a generalisation)


Someone who goes through tough times is more likely to be mature as is someone who is older, as is a male is likely to be better than a female at wow. These are all generalizations, meaning not all people who go through tough times, are older, or are male are mature/better. Making a rule that only older/males can join a guild just because they are more likely to be mature/better is wrong. Going through tough times is just another thing that is more likely to end up with someone more mature.




whilst there is some truth in this, and some (few) adopt the 18+ rule to have a more mentally mature guild, the vast majority do it to protect under 18s and it's members. It may seem discriminatory and patronising to say 17y'olds need protecting over WoW, but everyone is bound by law to respect just that.
If a guild decides to implement a rule to ensure this is upheld, it is to some extent justified in doing so.

Will this create a sub/over 18 divide in the game? I don't think so. there are plenty of guilds out there that don't implement this rule.

Protect them from what? Things they don't need protection from. Members don't need to be saved from all 17 year olds and all 17 year olds don't need to be saved from older people. Going by protection, an all male guild might need protection from females to avoid drama. Noone is bound by law to respect that, if that were true it would be illegal to have guilds with people under 18. There is nothing illegal about limiting membership in a guild, whether it's by age or gender(afaik), but I'm not arguing about legality, I'm arguing about right and wrong. It is creating a divide, just not to everyone.

It's like making mmorpgs(or anything) illegal just because a few people can't handle playing them responsibly. In this case it's making a guild illegal to a group of people just because some of them can't handle it.

[Gadaí]

The guild I'm in doesn't have a '18+' rule (in fact 2 of our officers are under 18 ) but I can understand the viewpoint of guilds that do adopt it. It's nothing to do really with maturity, I'm sure that they would happily fail the trial of an immature 28 year old based on behaviour, what it is to do with is the ability to say "You're probably considered to be legally responsible for yourself in your country of origin, meaning that we can feel more relaxed about our behaviour on guild Vent/guild chat, not feeling a need to self censor to avoid potentially improper content for someone who would be considered a minor". It's nothing to do with an applicant/member's actual maturity but about allowing members to be as uncensored as possible without the worry of being inappropriate in front of younger people. They may, of course, never have content on the guild communication channels which would actually warrant the rule but still prefer to have that perceived freedom available to them.

[Tonuss]

I assume that guilds that want to incorporate a minimum age requirement do so based on the reasoning that while there are exceptions, older people tend to be more mature. I think that more often than not, they draw a line out of a desire to avoid doing a lot of screening.

Whether that's right or wrong, or fair or unfair, is a matter of opinion. In my experience, few guilds bother with an age limit, and some of those are not very strict about it. I actually wouldn't judge a guild's maturity level based on such a simple and easily-implied/applied metric. If I found a guild that was worth being in, and they had an age limit, that wouldn't bother me. A guild without an age limit that was populated by people 25 and older who acted like idiots wouldn't be a guild that I would want to join.

I've known lots of immature adults, and quite a few mature "pre-adults." But in general, older people are more stable and more mature.