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[Murdertrain]

Hi all,

Recently I asked for advice on which 5 man comp to run for TBC dungeons. I landed at Prot Pally + 4 elemental shaman. Well, I got the shaman to 33 (will level pally when it drops since I'm horde) and of course, the new ToS update hit so I'm back to square one. I humbly ask you experienced folks what you would suggest is a doable, legal group based on the toons I already have. Any and all input is, without question, massively appreciated. I had everything planned out perfectly, now I'm starting the whole planning process over again. To complicate matters, I would prefer to be able to 5 man the Druid, Priest and Warlock. I'm wondering if Druid heals, Mage/Lock/Priest DPS, pally tank would be doable without software?

To further further complicate matters, I would prefer to keep Account 2 basically on its own so that there's never any chance of it getting reported with the others, even though I'll be doing it all legally, someone will definitely report if they see me.

One positive is that I'm willing to buy as many boosts to 58 as I need to field a solid team. If Pally 4xShaman is still the best way to go, I'll level a pally and buy 4 new shaman since my 4 man shaman group has very noticeable and similar names which have already been reported. I'm sure someone will do it again if they just happen to see one of them in a dungeon.

I know this is rambling but there are literally dozens of ways to go with this. I can theorycraft all I want, but having never stepped foot in a TBC dungeon as a multiboxer, I simply have no idea what those dungeons will demand and will accommodate more easily in terms of no software/hardware 5 box.

EDIT: No toon is particularly well-geared. Mostly BRD/LBRS stuff. So if it's a comp that'd require full Naxx or something, I'm out of luck!

Account 1:

60 Druid
60 Shaman
60 Mage


Account 2:

60 Warrior
60 Rogue
60 Hunter
60 Mage

Account 3:

60 Warrior
60 Warlock
60 Mage

Account 4:

60 Rogue
60 Priest

Account 5:

60 Warrior
60 Mage

Account 6:

32 Shaman

I can put the Pally on any account needed. I can also boost a toon on any account.

Thanks for any guidance!

[nodoze]

Yeah I also got thrown for a loop and I pulled my original account from back in Vanilla out of my 5box also...

The two main approaches I would consider are:


- Solid Paladin+4Shaman that is spammy & if done efficiently could look like Input Broadcasting;
- All AoE team where no one except the healer needs an input more than once per 8 seconds;

I modeled each of your accounts options in slots 1-5 for various teams as follows:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-ZAFHoUxb9oP8SRZEPa-wh7eJB-E-P_1Mo6ftbpCeOQ/edit#gid=1022772595

I tried to model ways to minimize your 58 boost costs and power-level costs (where you pay gold to some Mage to power level your Paladin or help you finish a 32 Shaman) yet give you lots of good options to consider...

The Team options in bold are the ones I would consider if I were you and personally I plan to go with one of the two I marked in Cyan/Light-Blue...

[Murdertrain]

Yeah I also got thrown for a loop and I pulled my original account from back in Vanilla out of my 5box also...

The two main approaches I would consider are:
- All AoE team where no one except the healer needs an input more than once per 8 seconds to maintain DPS;
- Traditional Paladin+4Shaman team that is spammy and if done efficiently could look like Input Broadcasting;

I modeled each of your accounts options in slots 1-5 for various teams as follows:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-ZAFHoUxb9oP8SRZEPa-wh7eJB-E-P_1Mo6ftbpCeOQ/edit#gid=1022772595

I tried to model ways to minimize your 58 boost costs and power-level costs (where you pay gold to some Mage to power level your Paladin or help you finish a 32 Shaman) yet give you lots of good options ton consider...

The Team options in bold are the ones I would consider if I were you and personally I plan to go with one of the two I marked in Cyan/Light-Blue...

Holy cow, man. I was excited for potential responses, but had no idea I'd get something this golden. Like, really, I'm pretty much stunned somebody'd take the time. Thanks so much!

It's starting to click about the "8 second rule" for lack of a better term. I have respec'd my current classic group to give that a try in Strat later tonight, and if that goes well, my lock's epic mount quest.

I have Druid, Mage, Mage, Lock, Priest for now. Excited to see how it goes. (If I had 2x lock, I'd def try that.)

If it's viable, I'm perfectly fine to grab another lock to sub for a mage as you suggested. The pally will come later, of course.

I'm still quite new to this, but it seems to me the 8 second rule type of group may just work! Although I'm pretty damn bummed I won't get to experience PaSSSS. I was so looking forward to that lol. But who knows, maybe we will get some clarification down the line that lets us do more spammy comps in relative safety. Not holding my breath but will be thrilled to have even one functioning group from Day 1 TBC so that I can level my primary toons later via quests after the rush is gone.

[Murdertrain]

Also as kind of a tertiary question to your suggestions, Nodoze:

What would the second lock bring to the table that a second mage wouldn't that would make a massive difference? Or is it more personal preference?

And:

I love the thought of a shammy healer rather than priest so that mail/spell leather doesn't go to waste. From an ease-of-use standpoint, does shammy seem to be much harder than priest or about the same? I leveled a shammy in a melee cleave group 5 box and it was simple. But never tried with caster nor as a major contributor to defensive things like grounding totem, etc.

[nodoze]

I hope your DLMMPr testing goes OK but please do note that neither Druid nor Warrior do the AoE Threat nor AoE DPS damage as well as the Paladin even in Classic-WoW and it only gets better in TBC-Classic... For me the AoE Approach is better when you go "all in on the theme" with every slot contributing to AoE damage (some obviously more than others). Large pulls can be a little hectic but I find them fun and challenging and if you do medium sized pulls it can actually be relaxing enough such that I can divert focus enough to understand audio-books or news while dungeon grinding...

For any long term 5box team gear mix of cloth vs mail vs leather vs Plate really isn't a factor to me. In the long run it really just doesn't matter as you will be disenchanting/auctioning/vendoring everything...

Regarding team composition I and some others have actually made our preferred 5box team in Classic-WoW: Paladin+3Locks+Priest and I only swap in a mage for certain circumstances (like bad curses) and otherwise I just use my mage for free food/water/portals...

In Classic-WoW my DPS rotation has typically only been 1 interaction every 15 seconds for HellFire so roughly I interact with the Paladin Tank ~twice as often to refresh Consecration (8 seconds) per HellFire Refresh and I often just tank-&-spank and then focus on AoE healing on the Priest as needed (or if I have excess Priest mana I spam Holy Nova to help AoE DPS+Heal).

That has been fine for Classic WoW but I think it wise to have the ability to consistently kite for TBC-Classic's Heroic Dungeons which points toward:

- Swapping a Lock for a Mage for Blizzard to get consistent slows so Paladin can easily kite mobs through Consecration+Blizzard+Fire;
- Swapping the Priest for a Shaman with EarthBind totem (not as good as mage slows but is the only solid option if you keep 3 Locks);
- OR BOTH (if the AoE slows stack);

Doing the AoE damage at range was fine when we could use ISboxer for @Cursor but without ISboxer so far the only way I have been able to consistently use AoE is via @Player which brings a few factors to mind because I now have to tank-n-spank or kite closer to my DPS as follows:

-Earthbind_Totem: 45 secs Radius: 10 yards;
-Hellfire: Duration 15 secs: Radius: 10 yards;
-Rain_of_Fire: Duration 8 secs: Radius: 8 yards;
-Blizzard: Duration 8 seconds: Radius: 8 yards;
-Consecration: Duration 8 seconds: Radius 8 yards;

Note:The radius of Consecration does not matter much as you can kite them through the middle of Consecration but to kite you do need to keep them within the edge of the DPS folk's AoE and 10 yard AoE is easier than 8 yards...

Going from 3Locks to swap in 1 Mage you now have to refresh every 8 seconds and kite within 8 yards even if the Warlocks are 15/10 so switching them to be Rain_or_Fire or adding even a 2nd Mage doesn't change things as much as adding the first Mage...

That being said I get most of what I want from the 1st Mage and a 2nd Mage doesn't really add much while 2 Warlocks still gives me:

2 AoE Taunts every pull to give my Paladin some respite (kinda like having 2 Warrior Cooldowns);
Note the AoE Taunts also inflict -10% hit on all mobs for 15 seconds each (so 30 seconds per pull);
2 Curses;
2 Soulstones;
2 Summoners so I don't have to summon myself then hearth and get everything done in only 1:50;

I also prefer Warlocks as mine are SoulLinked and very Tanky which is good for me when I am only half paying attention... When running 3 Locks I find 2 AoE Taunts enough so I typically run improved Imp on the 3rd Lock and thus have improved stamina buff for the full party and the improved fire_shield for my Tankadin which also helps...

So to your questions you can do this "all AoE approach" with any combination of Locks+Mages (or all Locks or all Mages) though personally for TBC-Classic I would have at least 1 of each and give the nod to 2 Warlocks myself. 3Locks pushes you to Shaman so you can Kite but then I have worries about only having chain_heal with 3Locks+3Pets+Paladin+Shaman and feel Priest's true AoE heals makes more sense in that party (so catch-22)... 0-2 Locks seems more Shaman friendly than 3 Locks+3pets...

Note also that Shaman brings more than downgrading to hard-casted-gimped-AoEish Heals to pick up a consistent slow... Shaman totems & abilities can also bring things like:


Air: +101 spell damage/healing or -20% AoE Threat + Grounding on demand;
Earth: -50% slow or Tremor AoE removing Fears/Charms/Sleeps or -43 melee damage + AoE Taunt;
Fire: AoE damage;
Water: AoE Health or Mana;
Guardians: Taunter or Fire damage one;
Reincarnation;
Bloodlust;

All really smexy though I am still torn as the Priest's extra Stamina and HoT and shield (all improved) help make my party more tanky and I really like the simplicity of instants & true AoE Heals from the Priest and look forward to another instant AoE heal from Circle of Healing in TBC-Classic... With all that in mind, for me for TBC Classic, I am still torn between:


-PaLLMPr
-PaLLMS

If I don't have time to finish leveling my Shaman before the Portal opens then the decision may be made for me...

Hope that helps...

[Murdertrain]

Man you aren't kidding about how borked this setup is without a paladin's aoe threat lol.

Spent the evening getting absolutely destroyed in Strat by the big undead packs with druid tank. BUT! It definitely served as sort of a "proof-of-concept" in that it is quite manageable albeit a little more demanding than the old ways. Adding a pally with strong aoe threat looks as if it could be eminently doable.

As for the MML vs LLM question, your post and my ingame experience has shown me that, while 8 seconds seems like an eternity to mouseover/cast on 3/4 other windows, it's really not--especially when you're trying to gather aggro on 8 mobs with a druid. I definitely now see the ease of use in an MLL or even LLL group. A 15 second hellfire channel leaves a lot of time for other actions. So much so that I'm now strongly considering PaLLLS. Especially early on I as I'm learning the dungeons, I think the extra 3 VW taunts will really make life easy. Having never done the heroics (or even the normals) in TBC, I've never had to kite, but a 10m hellfire (x2-3) and a 10m earthbind (45 sec!!!) seems like it will allow me ample time to use the pally tank to keep everyone safe. After I get my bearings, maybe sub in a mage at some point. If, however, I start to feel comfortable running this setup before TBC opens, I would definitely take your advice of PaLLMS.

That's not even mentioning the wipe prevention of 2-3x Soulstones (as you pointed out) and an ankh, plus all the tools a Pally brings that I've yet to learn.

Once again thanks for such comprehensive discussion. I genuinely hope we can find a way to do what we love doing while staying within the rules. I've never met a multiboxer that wasn't friendly and helpful, so it'd be nice to see the community grow while not constantly looking over our shoulder.

[nodoze]

No problem as I am glad to help. I play the way I do in part because I have some handicaps and I like not having to interact so much and can just chill and let everything just be AoE. Because they are so good I was planning to go P4S and 5S in Classic-TBC just like I did in original TBC but after the ToS change the idea of getting accused of Input Broadcasting made me think to stay with the "All AoE" setup with the "no more than 1 input per 8s" approach where possible... Later if we are less concerned with spammy play we can consider moving the Locks to Seed of Corruption AoE which is likely the highest AoE damage in TBC... I think the steady AoE DPS approach will be enough but be aware that there are some really crazy high AoE DPS options we can also try (if we go that route we may need the Shaman to drop a Tranquil Air totem for -20% Threat even with the Paladin already giving everyone -30% Threat)...

If you go PALLLS you actually can have 4 AoE taunts as the Shaman can temporarily replace an Earth totem with Stoneclaw totem and then put back whatever totem after the Stoneclaw is destroyed...

PALLLS actually has wipe protection times 5 because the Paladin can Divine Intervention the Shaman to prevent a wipe...

The main concern I have with PaLLLS is with losing true AoE heals and having to rely on a single Shaman's Chain Healing keeping 8 targets alive (counting possibly soul-linked Warlock pets)... Being that I play Alliance and quit after WotLK and only came back for Classic I haven't used Shaman since WoTLK... Maybe with haste and talents/gear the repeated hard casting of Chain Heal on the Paladin the extra healing bounces will give enough healing to the party via the secondary/tertiary heals... Just don't know... Not something I have had to worry about with true AoE healing from the Priest...

Please keep us updated and I will likewise. I think at least one other boxer is trying these approaches and/or party options for Classic-TBC so I will do my best to come back here and relay any feedback I get (if he doesn't post to the thread himself).

[Murdertrain]

After really putting a lot of thought into it, I think I'll go with PaMLLPr.

Reading about the additions to priest kit is pretty impressive for healing the group in a simpler fashion.

I'll hope that the blizzard on the mage will handle the snare. Given that I'm new to this, I want to make it as simple as possible for the first group and I believe PaMLLPr will do that. Plus, that saves my shammy to level in an eventual melee cleave group (if such a thing will ever again exist) or to level alongside a warrior and/or rogue in open world stuff later on.

Given my stable of toons and based on your guidance, I believe I am finally comfortable with where I'm headed!

[nodoze]

Sounds good & keep us updated. I hope you have luck getting your Paladin to 60 fast as this approach really doesn't work well without Tankadin AoE at the core. Maybe a decked Warrior with Thunderfury & Force Reactive Disks shouting all the time with 3 Mages and a Paladin healer giving the Warrior Retribution Aura and the Mages Salvation could also pull it off but that just seems like more trouble that it would be worth.

If Chain Healing can keep up a full party in a large pull Heavy AoE environment I do think that Shaman could be superior with Tremor Totem (and Mage slows) and either extra spell damage or extra threat reduction as needed (plus all the other extra goodies). We could still use a Priest to give long lasting buffs before starting a grinding run with a Shaman so you wouldn't even have to totally give up those either...

Unfortunately with Blizzard giving us barely 2 weeks to level up Shaman/Paladins during the PrePatch and considering my work load & family demands I don't think it likely that I will be able to get a Shaman to 58+ before the portal opens so likely I will be going PaLLMPr also. The Priest tool kit is best suited for true AoE Healing so likely the safer bet for at least an initial team so I guess that is OK (even though I was hoping to try Shaman 1st).

[nodoze]

Murdertrain,

Confessor (AKA AJ) is also planning on running PaLLMPr and shared the following in the ISboxer Discord's wow_classic tbc channel. Figured I would copy it here to help you and also so that I can easily find it again (things in Discord get lost to me quickly).

My focus has been thinking about viability at 70 in Heroics so I have not put as much thought into leveling 60->70 as he has so I really appreciate him sharing and getting the ball rolling. My thoughts on Paladin & Priest specs at 60 match his though on my Warlocks I have been going Soul Link to make them more survivable during Hellfire (and in general) and I don't sacrifice my pets and instead use the Voidwalker(s) to AoE Taunt if my Paladin is starting to get overwhelmed... When I can I will study his 60+ specs as maybe with Circle of Healing on the Priest moving to Demonic Sacrifice for +15% Damage is the better way to go. I will need to study the Mage specs/rotation as that is the class in the mix with which I have the least preference/experience.

Personally I play my team as pretty much all AoE until bosses (if I even mess with a given boss) but I do want single target macros for at least bosses so that part is most appreciated...

THANKS AJ for the following ! :
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2021.05.12 in Discord:
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5:32 PM] Confessor: These are the specs I am gonna run for PaPrLLM

Paladin: https://tbc.wowhead.com/talent-calc/paladin/-0530503350000102521551-05
Priest: https://tbc.wowhead.com/talent-calc/priest/50123001305-035051030302050530051
Lock x2: https://tbc.wowhead.com/talent-calc/warlock/-20500301332101-0552005120025102
Mage: https://tbc.wowhead.com/talent-calc/mage/-5050020123033310531-2030023013

For warlocks, I am thinking I can just use a Castsequence macro:

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=target/combat Curse of Insert, Immolate, Shadow Bolt, Shadow Bolt , Shadow Bolt, Shadow Bolt, Shadow Bolt, Immolate, Shadow Bolt, Curse of Agony, Shadow Bolt, Shadow Bolt, Shadow Bolt, Shadow Bolt, Shadow Bolt

Subbing Shadow Bolt for Incinerate at 64.

For Mage
#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=target/combat Scorch, Scorch, Scorch, Scorch, Scorch, <Combustion>, Fireball, Fireball, Fireball, Fireball, Fireball, Fireball,

Mage Combustion feels iffy. Not sure if i want to include pyroblast or blastwave as well. Probably will leave them off.

Paladin will have a GSE macro to cycle between Holy Shield and Consecrate and then have Seals and Judge on separate keys.

Priest will be 99% mouseover macros or clique
[5:32 PM] Confessor: Flamestrike + Imp Bliz on mage, Hellfire on locks.
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