SOE Reviewing Keyclone legality for EQ2

[PyrostasisTDK]

They recently started scanning for programs and its come up with whats legal and whats not in this thread. ('http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=414907')

Someone asked about keyclone and we got some rather interesting response. Looks like keyclone might be on the block for us.

Here's the excerpt.

I have begun petitioning asking about multiboxing tools.
The TSR level response was:

Any program that enhances the gameplay experience comparatively to other normal players is strictly prohibited. If you 2 box, it should be okay as long as it doesn't affect/tweak the game, i.e. if you have a computer that can hold 2 separate clients, and if you are willing to toggle back and forth between clients it should be okay. The key word that I see from your inquiry, "using a software tool",that's probably won't be okay with us.There are other manual ways to toggle clients without using software tools
MY RESPONSE was:

So a hardware KVM switch would be permitted, but a keyboard signal broadcaster is not ok? There are other hardware tools which are very expensive which can do similar things as well, as well as buying a computer for every instance of EQ2 you wish to run.

For example I have seen some guys who are able to cast all of their spells on multiple characters simultaneously. Something that allows you to split your keyboard input to multiple EQ2 clients at the same time, even if it is NOT automated, is not allowed?

This was escalated to the TSR supervisor, which responded:

I am sure their will be lot of such hardware and software available in the market but what we are sure is that anything that gives you added unfair advantage over other players will not be permitted.

However, If its not automated, then it should be Ok.

Also, What program or hardware are you trying to use? If you can tell us the name, then may be I can investigate more on it.

--------------------
I have responded with the specific "keyclone" product to see what they think, and have linked the FAQ page of the product website. The initial response sounds like keyclone would be a no go, but the supervisor response of "if it is not automated, it should be OK" makes me think possibly otherwise. I have argued that the ability to split your keyboard input does not constitute automation, and the fact that each character's actions must involve human interaction does not constitute an "unfair advantage."
We'll see what they think after they have had some time to investigate it. Given that blizzard has been historically much more strict, perhaps such a thing would be alright.

[Gallo]

You should totally copy/paste some of Vyn's posts on what is and isn't "automation". I bet it would bring up a lot more discussion.

[PyrostasisTDK]

She's already been linked.

Its 100x harder to speak with someone at SOE though.

[Gallo]

Speaking of Vyn, haven't seen much from her lately. She and Suvega must be working long hours at the evil empire(Microsoft) lately.

[Eteocles]

I think Vyn's absence has more to do with her last post in her Arena Team-buying thread...search for it by her posts or a page or two back for more info lol

[Gallo]

Oh, I know of that post. I would figure that wouldn't phase her. My bet is shes just busy.

[Eteocles]

Let's keep it from being brought back up again...the summary is indeed that someone accused her of stuff, then she made that thread, then the rest of us voiced our opinions on the matter/subject of arena buying and she didn't like that we disagreed with her choices on an opinionated/personal level, so threw a fit and locked it then left >.>

Though she's still idling/idled in the IRC strangely enough

[PyrostasisTDK]

well lets move the thread back to my topic please, dont want this locked.

[Khazrael]

I'm gonna go with fur on this one and say it sounds like something they just haven't encountered and have no policy for yet. Multi-boxing isn't exactly mainstream, and most companies probably don't even consider it, much less have some sort of defined policy for it.

It will probably take them some time to mature into understanding, and appropriately determining if they consider it to be acceptable.

[Slats]

All you need to do is simply outline what the program/software does.



That there is no possible way to script/automate anything. It simple sends a keystroke to a window when you push that key, however it can send to many windows.

In relation to the other topic, yes most people dislike point selling, its going to be an uphill battle to convince the community here its somehow OK heh. Looks like in a recent interview with Tom Chilton they are going to implement further measures to make point selling and personal rating selling alot more difficult.

[Havelcek]

I have to say, this doesn't really surprise me. I love my 5 characters and playing them all at the same time but ultimately Keyclone and other solutions are letting me press 1 button instead of 5, as do the hardware solutions. I can easily imagine Blizzard arbitrarily deciding one day to add keyclone detection to Warden and then the party is over.

[Xzin]

Can't (directly) detect the hardware only solutions!

[PyrostasisTDK]

seems like keyclones getting the thumbs up, unfortunately innerspace the thumbsdown... and atm keyclone needs innerspace to work, so hopefully the new versions out soon...preferably before the mass bans

[Suvega]

on reply to the comments about vyndree,

Definetly the fuckstick, not work. :P

[Slats]

I take it you feed the keyclone output to innerspace vs the eq2 window because it wont take non-focused window input?
TBH I'm not that familar with exactly how it all works.

Well for all our EQ2 boxing friends, good luck guys. I hope this gets sorted out soon. :)



-Dan

[PyrostasisTDK]

Yeah thats basically it with innerspace. Rob is fixing it, or I may just have to kill him.

[keyclone]

Can't (directly) detect the hardware only solutions!simply found in-game. if they rule that any type of multi-boxing (software or hardware) is an unfair advantage, hardware guys would be just as hosed.

and yes, it's simple to find the characters using the same powers within the same region within a 0.1 second interval of each other. hardware or software, if they didn't want it, it'd be gone in a blink.

the big item on the GM supervisors list is automation. they don't want bots... understandable. but multi-boxers are not bots.. and would probably be less efficient then the same number of characters manned by 1 person each (if they used vent to coordinate targeting and firing)

on reply to the comments about vyndree,
Definetly the fuckstick, not work. :P ok.. i say we ban the fuckstick.. nobody messes with our vyndree :cursing:
Yeah thats basically it with innerspace. Rob is fixing it, or I may just have to kill him. i'm working on it! geez... :D

[aetherg]

Buy two keyboards, and line them up on your desk. Then, out of some wood or plastic, construct a sort of 'claw' that you strap to your hand so that when you press a key on one, you're also pressing the same key on the other keyboard. That's exactly what Keyclone does, and I don't see anything wrong with it. It just gets people fired up because it's "omg teh third partiez".

[PyrostasisTDK]

THE CLAW!!!

[keyclone]

key-claw ??


nah... don't like

:D

[JoeWunsch]

I would think it would have to be legal, and that GM's just need to get the word from the higher powered employees.

Tons of people used to do it on Everquest1, Samsoul who is a member of this forum did it for 3 or so years on sullon zek on everquest, although he used a hardware solution it was the same outcome -- sync'd characters.

[PyrostasisTDK]

I think the main thing is innerspace... once thats out of the picture everything should be fine.

[Stealthy]

key-claw ??


nah... don't like

:DLOL thats gold!

[Mosg2]

I may have to consider boxing EQ2... Was always a pretty fun game for me.

On the off-topic topic... Eteocles, don't say "we" when you were pretty much the only person calling her out. And I do remember you distinctly using some foul language. Maybe a "I'm sorry" e-gram is in order? :D

[gantell]

Concerning Hardware Multboxing Everquest 2 it was acceptable in the past when I asked about it. Of course they can change their policy when ever they like.

Here is an PM exchange I had with Moorgard at SOE:



From: Targ ('http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/user/profile.m?user_id=146508') To: Moorgard ('http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/user/profile.m?user_id=103') Date: 08/24/2006 16:22:54 Subject: EULA question I have a question concerning the EULA, I hope you can answer it for me or direct me to a source for an answer. I have been a Everquest2 play for quite some time, I mutibox several toons. I do not farm plat. I do observe play nice rules and never mob steal or other wise make a nuisance of my self. Recently I have been considering the use of a wireless keyboard connected to several computers. This would input keystrokes on all computers at the same time, but in looking on the forums and the EULA it is not clear if this is allowed, and so my question.

Is the use of a wireless keyboard connected to several computers a considered a violation of the EULA?

Thanks for your help in clearing up this question
And Moorgard's response:


From: Moorgard ('http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/user/profile.m?user_id=103') To: Targ ('http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/user/profile.m?user_id=146508') Date: 08/24/2006 16:49:28 Subject: Re: EULA question As long as you are hitting keys that control all the characters (that is, you are not automating their play via commands not built into the game), it's absolutely fine. ===========================
Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard
Game Designer, EverQuest II


So I think if SOE can be made to understand that keyclone is the functional equivalent of hardware multiboxing and has no automation in it, (once they get rid of inner-space) it should be ok.

[PyrostasisTDK]

Im forming an EQ2 boxer march on Rob's house, grab your torch and pitch fork lets GO!

[keyclone]

coding on the run!!!

[PyrostasisTDK]

Less talk about fucksticks and more talking about keyclone for eq2! My innerspace subscription runs out tomorrow =( so Im about to be up a creek.

[keyclone]

awww geez... i didn't know i was on a deadline...

[PyrostasisTDK]

Your not, its been coming for a while, no worries, I can wait till its ready.

I just cant runt he risk anymore of getting popped. Im hoping to get into the AoC beta to keep me entertained, but so far beer and strippers I have thrown at the dev team have not yielded a reward.

[keyclone]

you need to profile your mark better...

they're developers. throw mountain dew and hot asians

http://www.timarai.com/images/tokyo_1007/potion03.jpg

http://www.asian-sirens.com/blog/images/uploads/ChelseaEmata.jpg
http://www.weirdspot.com/images/uploads/1maybe.jpg

[Skuggomann]

If they both split, I wouldn't blame either one of them.

That wud make me a sad panda :(

[mrmcgee21]

I hydra'd in everquest 1 for 6 years playing an entire team. There was no doubt I had an unfair advantage, over other players and I did use a third party program in the backround called winEQ ( see innerspace ) which basically did what the maximizer in keyclone does, did not pass keys. However I do know for sure that it was permitted, I spoke to gm's about it and pretty much everyone on my server knew of it. WinEQ still develops his software for EQ2 and many people from EQ1 continue to use it there so I'm nearly 100% sure that you will be fine. Everquest knows VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY well about boxxers. Long LONG before any of you played wow we were 6 boxxing in everquest and it was very commonly known to happen, infact probably more than 90% of that game plays 2 or more chars now due to its slow play style.

[Nisch]

This is exactly why I went the hardware route.

Even if they get after hardware boxers, then you simply bind 5 (or in my case, 6) keys next to each other on the XKeys, and just roll over them with my fingers. That will cast them at different times then. Nothing to "detect", and they're not "sync"ed. I still don't think it gives someone an unfair advantage. At least not from my perspective. I multibox in DAOC and an equally numbered group will roll me any day that's played by 6 indivudual people.

[Binaryzero]

any new leads other than using interspace for same box multiboxing? or any new ideas at all? macros? etc?

I am working on a Wizzard/Warlock combo right now but I would maybe add more...

[krum]

I had quite a rant on SOE here...