How to make direct slot swapping usable with the ShuOne 8 port KM Synchronizer

[Wootenblatz]

Update 11/15/2020 - I'm including an additional shortcut (#9) I have not been using but others may find helpful. I am also going to include some new information in Part 3 regarding what I've learned while testing different peripherals with this device.

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If you're focusing on hardware based multiboxing like I am, you probably have heard of the device I'm going to talk about or have bought one already. If you have not heard of it, the ShuOne synchronizer is available on Amazon in the US with the Amazon stock identification number (ASIN) of B07NZSZFL8. Search for that and you'll find the device right away.

As far as 8 port KM sync devices go, so far this one seems like the most affordable option that is readily available from a reliable seller and has many of the features we need. It supports syncing a keyboard and a mouse to all 8 ports, a single port and an arbitrary number of ports. By default mouse sync happens with "absolute positioning" which is another way of saying "This device is going to reset your mouse cursor position if it thinks one or more clients has a mouse cursor in a different position from the rest". This is important to talk about in-depth and I'll get to it in more detail later in this post.

With that said, there are some challenges involved in making it work efficiently if you want to run a full party in World of Warcraft. First off you should know that almost every KM Synchronizer is going to obscure the input devices that are connected to it. This is not a pass through connection. When you plug your Keyboard or Mouse into the device, all of the PCs are going to see a generic HID compliant mouse, not your Razer, Steel Series, Logitech, Corsair or any other brand of device. This means that if you need to set things up with software (DPI, key bindings, macros, lighting etc...) you need to plug the peripheral directly into your PC, do that configuration work and plug it back into the ShuOne when you're done.

On to the device itself! I'm going to start off by just covering the keyboard shortcuts that the device responds to. I am only going to cover the keyboard shortcuts.


I'll end up referring to these a lot in the future, I'd guess. From now on if I refer to "Shortcut #1" or "Shortcut #3", I'm talking about this numbered list.



Tap scroll lock twice and hit the 0 key - This turns on synchronization to all devices
Tap scroll lock twice and hit any other number key - This does something differently depending on if full sync is on or off

If sync is on - The PC on this port will be removed from the sync pool. If you want to sync to every port except 2, you'd press the following keys: SCRLCK, SCRLCK, 0, SCRLCK, SCRLCK, 2
If sync is off - Switch directly to the PC on that port


Hold down CTRL and press left or right arrow - This will cycle to the next or previous port on the device. If the system is in Sync mode, CTRL RIGHT ARROW will always jump to port 1
Hold down the windows key and press a number key - This switches directly to that port regardless of the sync state. *This is not useable while multiboxing by default* (I'll cover how to address this later) - (11/15/2020) See Shortcut #9 for another option.
Tap scroll lock twice and hit F12 - Turns on absolute mouse positioning mode

This is the default mode, and not what we want in some cases. It works great for interacting with NPCs and clicking buttons for quest items, opening chests, gathering and clicking your action bar buttons
Trying to move and steer while all ports are synced will result in wild camera adjustments randomly


Tap scroll lock twice and hit F11 - Turns on relative positioning mode

This mode prevents wild camera angle adjustments when all ports are synced, which is what we want
Relative mouse positioning mode is locked to the Y axis for mouse tracking. If you want full range of tracking (X and Y axis) you have to hold down ` (tilde key).


Tap scroll lock twice and hit R - This resets the KM Sync device in case you get something a little messed up
Tap scroll lock twice and hit M - This enables serial screen switching with the mouse

If you are on port one and you move the cursor far enough to the right to be off screen, you switch to port 2. Keep going right and you hit port 3, port 4, etc...
Tap scroll lock twice and hit M again to turn serial screen switching off


Hold ALT and hit K - This will change Shortcut #4 so that you can use the ALT key and a number to switch to a slot instead of the windows key. You can avoid the workarounds with PowerToys or RegEdit by switching this setting. You lose the ability to use ALT 1 through 5 (or however many numbers you need for how many PCs you run).


The image below is for a section in Part 2.

[Wootenblatz]

I've scanned the useful pages from the the ShuOne Manual as a PDF. It is available on OneDrive here:
https://1drv.ms/b/s!ArDE4RsKAnrMgp8xDztVIayu778xkQ?e=L01lAe

[Wootenblatz]

So before I get into all of the caveats with how everything above works, I want to communicate my level of understanding for the above as it pertains to playing WoW. I have mostly used this device for keyboard sync only. Most of what I know about the absolute/relative mouse positioning issues I learned while using a different device which I am not going to cover in this post. I have not tried playing WoW with mouse sync and relative positioning with this device yet. I know what themanual says and I know how crazy absolute positioning was before I had a dedicated synchronizer setup for mouse movement.

When I only had one KM Sync setup (this one) I opted for using two mice. The second, non-synced mouse was attached to my desktop directly. While I was testing out questing with 4 PCs I would usually have all ports synced so DPS keys, follow, assist and IWT keys would go to everyone. The mouse attached to the synchronizer would be moved to the side so I wouldn't touch it. I would drive the main toon with the second mouse (not synced). Playing like this means you will probably need to unbind your movement keys on all followers and replace them with a modifier+ movement key instead (i.e. SHIFT+W for forward, SHIFT+S for backward ,SHIFT+A, SHIFT+D for left and right).

Now lets get into the caveats! These are my personal observations in relation to how I want to play. Some of these may not matter to you or you may care about things I do not cover. Ignore what you aren't worried about and I guess ask questions about something I do not cover.

There is not a good way to jump directly to a slot in a way that works with windows "out of the box". - Update, See Hotkey #9. If you're OK with losing ALT+1 throught ALT+5 (or 8 if you go that high), these sections do not apply.
While shortcut 2seems to contradict this, I've covered how the behavior works differently depending on whether or not the device is switching (using one port) or syncing(using all ports). If you have sync on and use shortcut 2 to jump to PC3, you will simply remove PC3 from the sync pool.

Using CTRL left/right involves relative movement between the ports. Jumping to a specific port with a keyboard macro would require you to always start from the same port. You could accomplish this with a macro that fires shortcut #1 (sync on),shortcut #3 (ctrl left arrow) and then one or more CTRL RIGHT ARROW presses move to port 2 and up. While I am not saying this will not work, it adds complexity to your keyboard macros and involves pressing many keys in quick succession. In the spirit of abiding by the WoW ToS, you should try to avoid this whenever possible.

That leaves us shortcut #4 as our only option. Here we use the WINKEY+1, WINKEY+2 ... WINKEY+5shortcuts to jump to a specific port regardless of the sync state. The problem for us is that Windows already does something when you hold down the windows key and press a number. Try it out! This is a way to jump to a specific program in the task bar. If we do not work around this, windows will pull you out of WoW on all PCs if you're in the sync state and just on the PC you were controlling if in the switched state. However, there are two workarounds for preventing this behavior.

Workaround #1, Disable all Windows Key shortcuts by editing the registry - If you do google search for "regedit disable windows key shortcuts" you can find a number of sites telling you how to do this. Editing your registry can be dangerous for the health of your PC if you are not careful. Personally, I use a number of WinKey shortcuts daily. I went this route and found that while it worked for playing WoW, it was a real drag during the day while I was working.

Aside from that, there is a minor issue you'll run into while playing if you go this route. While the ShuOne will respond to a WinKey+2 command and switch to port2, as you let go of the key combination (via manual pressing OR a keyboard macro) the device will leave behind the number press. The device does not "intercept" the keystroke. With WinKey shortcuts disabled windows will see that you've pressed 2 on the port you're leaving and if 2 is bound to an ability, WoW will use that ability. If sync is on, all devices will press 2.Not great. I worked around this by changing my action bar so that 1-5 wasSHIFT+1-5 instead. This works during combat, but if you're lets say editing 5GSE macros in sync mode, you have to use shortcut #3 to move between ports or your macros will end up with numbers in the macro wherever your cursor was. Example if I jump from all ports to port 2: /cast [nochanneling]Unstable Affliction2

Workaround #2, using the Keyboard Manager in Microsoft PowerToys - PowerToys (https://github.com/microsoft/PowerToys/)is an open source tool from Microsoft that allows you to modify and "tweak" various aspects of windows. It is available to download on GitHub https://github.com/microsoft/PowerToys/ (https://github.com/microsoft/PowerToys/).

In PowerToys, the keyboard manager lets us remap specific shortcuts in Windows, which means you can keep WIN+E, WIN+D, WIN+SHIFT+S but disable WIN+1..5. The way you do this is to remap that key combination to another key for all apps. While "DISABLED" is an option you can pick, it did not work for me.

I ended up going with mapping WIN+1 through WIN+5 to just press SHIFT instead. If you set this up on all of your PCs you can keep your action bars as is and edit macros without leaving behind numbers as you swap ports. Ultimately, I consider this the best way to jump directly to a port on this device. Until one of you proves me wrong, you should try this out if you have a ShuOne.

My keyboard manager shortcut remapping section looks something like this (this image ended up on the first post, here is the link)
https://www.dual-boxing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2426&stc=1&d=1605199468

[Wootenblatz]

Mouse positioning modes - As I eluded to above, the ShuOne uses absolute positioning mode for the mouse cursor while in the sync state(shortcut #5 above). As the mouse cursor moves on all clients the system will reset the cursor on all devices if it gets out of sync. This is fine while interacting with NPCs but problematic while moving the game camera.

Relative positioning(shortcut #6) allows the cursors to be out of sync but only works on the Y axis(up and down) by default. This allows full sync mouse movement without wild camera movements. However, use of the X axis (left to right) is only possible while you hold down the ` key. I found this limitation of relative positioning mode a non-starter for my use case, which is why I was using two mice.

To be fair there are very rare instances where you need to move the mouse on all clients while in combat. Unfortunately absolute positioning mode has the tendency to reset your camera when you're only controlling one PC.

However if you only have one KM sync, you will be in full sync mode while in combat so you can DPS. If you want to use any of the buttons on your mouse while issuing commands to all PCs with your keyboard, relative mouse positioning is a requirement if you intend to keep your camera pointed at any direction other than "randomly where you do not want it".

Important when plugging another KM Sync into the ShuOne
If the KM sync you plug into the ShuOne is using Absolute Positioning, you're not going to be able to move your mouse very far. That was my experience with the AIMOS into the SHUONE. If you change to relative positioning mode on the KM sync plugged into your SHUONE, you should be able to track the mouse properly. I have not tested this extensively so I am unsure how reliable it is.


For most situations, maybe holding down ` will be fine but I have not tested how WoW handles other keyboard actions if you have that button held down at the same time. I have already moved on to a single mouse setup with a second KM Sync (different brand),so another person is going to have to do the leg work on resolving this shortcoming of the ShuOne.

Making it really work for you
Finally, lets talk about some of those shortcuts.


Turning Sync On - Scroll Lock is not in a convenient place for me. When I first started using this device, enabling full sync meant taking my hand off the movement and DPS keys to go all the way to the top right section of my keyboard. You will end up doing this a lot as you have to turn keyboard sync on and off for various reasons.
Swapping directly to a port - While the WINKEY+# port swapping is ideal after you work around the Windows behavior, I've always preferred to swap slots with a single keypress in ISBoxer (F1..F5). More keys to press means a higher likelihood of pressing the wrong keys. Remember you can switch this shortcut to ALT+# by using Shortcut #9.



These are two of the areas where you are going to want to consider increasing efficiency. To that end, I hope you have a keyboard and mouse that can store macros on the device itself. Please recall what I mentioned earlier about how input types get turned into the generic keyboard or mouse.

I highly recommend you record a macro for each of the following shortcuts:
Shortcut #1, you'll press this one a lot, put it somewhere near your DPS keys if you can
One shortcut #3 macro for each PC - WIN+1 and WIN+2 if you are dual boxing, for instance. You'll want these near your DPS keys as well
Shortcut #5 and #6 if you plan to use relative mouse movement. This way you can swap between the two modes as absolute positioning is great for when you're not in combat.

In my testing I found that I could only put the keyboard shortcuts for the ShuOne on an actual keyboard. I tried making a mouse macro to send the keyboard shortcut for Sync On (#1), it did not work. The ShuOne saw the input coming through on the mouse(there are indicator lights for this), it did not respond like it would when the key strokes came from the keyboard. I did not go out of my way to troubleshoot this one so if someone else has a different experience it is entirely possible my attached mouse was somehow to blame. Please share if you do.

Should you buy one? Maybe. Should you buy two? Depends on your mouse.
Over the last couple days I have been doing additional testing with this device and have established some limitations you should know about. ***The single most important thing I have learned is that it will not allow keyboard input to come from a mouse***. I used a windows program called "Show Off" to verify this. Show Off displays key presses in the top left part of the screen.

I originally ran into this issue with my Razer Naga Trinity at first and thought it was a problem with that mouse. I did not realize it was a limitation of the device itself.

I have since tested a Utech Venus Pro MMO mouse and the Red Dragon M990 Legend. In all cases the ShuOne would ignore any mouse button press that was sending input that should come from a keyboard. It seems to allow modifiers (such as CTRL) but no keys (A-Z, 0-9) or the numpad will be sent to attached PCs from the mouse. If a macro contained modifiers and keyboard keys, the modifiers were displayed by ShowOff, but no letter/number keys were.

The ShuOne is best suited as a KM sync where you're using a keyboard and two mice (one sync'd and one not sync'd). Furthermore you should know that the ShuOne will ignore all of the keyboard shortcuts shared in Part 1. I was not able to get the device to turn Sync On or jump to a port from my MMO mouse.

If you want to go for a dual KM sync setup where one KM handles keyboard sync and another handles mouse sync, you should probably NOT buy two ShuOne devices if you need any functionality on your mouse that is considered "keyboard input".

Is there a better option?
As it happens, there probably is. Unfortunately, there is not a better option that is as affordable as the 8-port ShuOne that does not ship from China. If you only need 4 ports, you are in luck. Search for B07R33HQNV on Amazon.


The AIMOS device uses the Numpad for most of its shortcuts and is easier to deal with in general. This device is far less heavy handed with how it attaches devices to windows. I believe this is because that unlike the ShuOne, the AIMOS manual does not mention a feature to fake the Vendor ID and Product ID of the attached input devices. The ShuOne has this feature and I have not found a way to turn it off. While this means the ShuOne may be safer to avoid an as yet unlikely HW multiboxing ban, it lowers its usefulness for using mice with programmable buttons in the short term.


Lack of VID/PID faking means you can actually use mouse configuration software from your vendor through the AIMOS USB sync. I tested this with the Red Dragon M900 Legend anyhow.


The 8-port AIMOS is not available from a supplier that ships via Amazon Prime. Delivery dates generally start 3 to 4 weeks. Search for B087QB51XG. The vendor has a 76% positive rating.


This device is also available on Newegg for a bit more money but with slightly faster shipping estimates. Search for 9SIANRBBZS3626. I have ordered the 8 port from Newegg and it is still in transit. Note that if you’re Midwest or East Coast, you’ll probably be told your item has “shipped” but the location is the customs facility in Jamaica NY. It’ll just sit there till whatever boat from China unloads your item.

[Ellay]

This is awesome, thank you.

[jak3676]

Nice writeup. Only think I noticed is that neither mouse nor keyboard plugged in through this device are recognized at all - you do not see a generic "HID compliant mouse". But instead the machine picks up a single "USB Composite Device" as soon as its plugged in - whether or not you have a keyboard or mouse plugged into the synchronizer.

I've had no luck plugging my razer mouse and keypad directly into my PC, programming them, then plugging them in through the KM Synchronizer - soon as they go through the KM Sync its as though they aren't programed at all.

[nodoze]

Amazing job. I haven't been able to fully digest this yet but very impressed and looks very useful to get the most out of our switches. Big +1 thumbs up to you!

[Celosar]

Do I actually need 5 machines to use this method or can I use 1-2 and setup to VMs?

[Wootenblatz]

Do I actually need 5 machines to use this method or can I use 1-2 and setup to VMs?

I'm not sure on the rules regarding virtual machines with WoW, you may want to read up on that before trying this out. With that said I have never tried to plug a USB switch (or sync) into a host PC twice so that your Hypervisor can provide distinct connections to the VM.

The only way I see this working out (and I'm no expert here) is if your host machine had a PCI add in card that provides additional USB ports. In terms of allocating physical hardware to one VM and not another, you might be able to plug 1 USB cable from the KM sync into the onboard USB and a second USB cable from the KM sync to the PCI USB card. In the configuration for the VM you'd make sure that one VM can only use the add in card and the other VM can only use the onboard USB. I have no idea if this would work or not and if WoW's ToS does not look kindly on playing in a virtual machine we may not want to even try.

[nodoze]

Do I actually need 5 machines to use this method or can I use 1-2 and setup to VMs?
I'm not sure on the rules regarding virtual machines with WoW, you may want to read up on that before trying this out. With that said I have never tried to plug a USB switch (or sync) into a host PC twice so that your Hypervisor can provide distinct connections to the VM.

The only way I see this working out (and I'm no expert here) is if your host machine had a PCI add in card that provides additional USB ports. In terms of allocating physical hardware to one VM and not another, you might be able to plug 1 USB cable from the KM sync into the onboard USB and a second USB cable from the KM sync to the PCI USB card. In the configuration for the VM you'd make sure that one VM can only use the add in card and the other VM can only use the onboard USB. I have no idea if this would work or not and if WoW's ToS does not look kindly on playing in a virtual machine we may not want to even try.My understanding is that Blizz has only spoken against Cloud Computing... Cloud Computing typically does involve virtualization with but it is with "VMs hosted in the Cloud" (not your home). Cloud Computing is not the same thing as using virtualization technology at your home...

After reading multiple great threads with many great contributions regarding hardware based options with tools/utilities (especially from Jak, bpkdasbsaum, & Ellay) I think a 5 physical PC 5box setup could be replicated possibly very inexpensively without buying 4+ more PCs (maybe only spending ~$170 to ~$400 total) by leveraging virtualization. The viability of this depends in part on what your current multi-box system is capable of and what your current monitor setup is...

In my head I can see this all working and put this down on "paper" quickly to get the word out so sorry in advance for any mistakes:

https://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/57967-So-hardware-multiboxing?p=433463&viewfull=1#post433463

(https://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/57967-So-hardware-multiboxing?p=433463&viewfull=1#post433463)Note that I haven't had time to really double check all of the above let alone try to set up a test lab but I have decades of experience with virtualization experience in large complex enterprise environments and believe I spec'ed it out in my head correctly...

I figured it best to share the info ASAP before folk consider buying 4+ PCs.

[boxblizzard]

My understanding is that Blizz has only spoken against Cloud Computing... Cloud Computing typically does involve virtualization with but it is with "VMs hosted in the Cloud" (not your home). Cloud Computing is not the same thing as using virtualization technology at your home...

After reading multiple great threads with many great contributions regarding hardware based options with tools/utilities (especially from Jak, bpkdasbsaum, & Ellay) I think a 5 physical PC 5box setup could be replicated possibly very inexpensively without buying 4+ more PCs (maybe only spending ~$170 to ~$400 total) by leveraging virtualization. The viability of this depends in part on what your current multi-box system is capable of and what your current monitor setup is...

In my head I can see this all working and put this down on "paper" quickly to get the word out so sorry in advance for any mistakes:

https://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/57967-So-hardware-multiboxing?p=433463&viewfull=1#post433463

(https://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/57967-So-hardware-multiboxing?p=433463&viewfull=1#post433463)Note that I haven't had time to really double check all of the above let alone try to set up a test lab but I have decades of experience with virtualization experience in large complex enterprise environments and believe I spec'ed it out in my head correctly...

I figured it best to share the info ASAP before folk consider buying 4+ PCs.

VM’s would be input broadcasting on a new level, through my understanding is innerpace has this kind of technology.

thr biggest concern I have is, making up hardware setups and then get banned later with the tos hammer without confirmation, how are we going to get a what is ok or not from blizzard?

this is a delicate situation for blizzard as they must be very careful in the public eye with any official posting, any GM’s may not be classification unless it’s blueposted and been moderated to stay for viewing.

personally I would like a volunteer to make these setups and directly contact GM’s and get their opinions and n the forums, to get some confirmation what is or against the rules.

nothing worse than reinvesting , and later being shutdown saying elements of the setup are considered not acceptable under their policies.

any takers? it’s like beta testing a carrot on a stick...don’t get chomped!

[Wootenblatz]

VM’s would be input broadcasting on a new level, through my understanding is innerpace has this kind of technology.

thr biggest concern I have is, making up hardware setups and then get banned later with the tos hammer without confirmation, how are we going to get a what is ok or not from blizzard?



First I'll say that my gut tells me that that banning hardware is probably going to be tricky to pull off without catching a lot of false positives. It will probably require more resources on Blizzard's end of things. Server resources and probably human resources. Even if input broadcasting detection advances as people find ways to accomplish it without Innerspace, the use case has a very distinct signature due to the single PC involved.

I'm referring to more than one client from the same public IP with the same Local IP and the same hardware MAC address (on the networking card). I'm sure we've all heard about Warden. I imagine it is a trivial update for warden to phone home with these three data points if it is not already doing this. This is part of what drove me to focus on hardware and not some other software solution, even if it was not key broadcasting. If it was my job to write warden code to flag multiboxers, this is what I would start with.

With hardware sync via a USB device, the local IP address on the network is different for each PC and each networking adapter has it's own MAC address. The devices attached to a KM sync look like generic USB devices, so I'm guessing that can't necessarily look at the devices on the PC to find us? Client activity will be hard to distinguish from normal users playing WoW together from the same house, dorm, apartment etc...

At that point banning hardware multiboxing in an automated fashion is going to require some pretty careful profiling of data. Two people playing at the same time from the same internet IP doesn't necessarily mean they're multiboxing. To effectively flag hardware multiboxing without getting regular users caught in the mix is likely going to need a GM to go watch the people play. So, more GMs.

[Wootenblatz]

VM’s would be input broadcasting on a new level, through my understanding is innerpace has this kind of technology.

VM boxing is an interesting detection target as it has a similar networking profile as hardware sync does (different local IP, different MAC address).

They shouldn't just action people who are playing WoW with a virtual machine running. Many of us have to use these for work and I imagine the same is true for blizzard developers too. To that end Warden would probably need to be updated to look at the machine it is running on and try to figure out if it is a known virtual machine.

I've never had a reason to have my KB/Mouse input go to my actual machine and a virtual machine I was running. I know of at least one other person who was using third party software to get this accomplished. To that end if the VM host doesn't have a way to natively send input to the host and guest at the same time, the third party programs will be targeted if VMs are not OK but somehow hardware sync still is.

Honestly I think blizzard will just ban multiboxing in general before they dive into the cat and mouse game they're already losing with bots. With a blanket ban, they could focus on flagging the multi client activity that is highly repetitive for GM review. A human can call a multiboxer pretty easily if they know what to look for.

[nodoze]

VM’s would be input broadcasting on a new level, through my understanding is innerpace has this kind of technology.

thr biggest concern I have is, making up hardware setups and then get banned later with the tos hammer without confirmation, how are we going to get a what is ok or not from blizzard? ... Agreed though at least right now Bizzard is only targeting Software that enables MultiCasting/Broadcasting and is at least tacitly allowing Hardware based MultiCasting (though I would recommend making things "effectively UniCasting" even when MultiCasting (https://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/58010-Glimmer-of-light-Hardware-boxing-and-it-still-has-the-power!?p=433496&viewfull=1#post433496) in any approach you pursue by binding any MultiCast key into only 1 WoW client).
VM boxing is an interesting detection target as it has a similar networking profile as hardware sync does (different local IP, different MAC address). ...

I've never had a reason to have my KB/Mouse input go to my actual machine and a virtual machine I was running. I know of at least one other person who was using third party software to get this accomplished. To that end if the VM host doesn't have a way to natively send input to the host and guest at the same time, the third party programs will be targeted if VMs are not OK but somehow hardware sync still is.

Honestly I think blizzard will just ban multiboxing in general before they dive into the cat and mouse game they're already losing with bots. With a blanket ban, they could focus on flagging the multi client activity that is highly repetitive for GM review. A human can call a multiboxer pretty easily if they know what to look for.Right now as far as we know VMs are premitted and hardware broadcasting is at worst currently a gray area...

Even if VMs or multiboxing were banned there are multiple ways to attempt to get around detection via approaches like:

Each VM could have different virtual hardware and you could rename virtual hardware to have identical names & characteristics to real physical hardware;
Each VM could have totally different local subets configs and go out over a different VPN to a different geographically located VPN server with different latency and lag signatures;
Each key broadcast could have different random delays at multiple points to better simulate real humans;
etc...

Not saying Blizz couldn't find ways to mitigate the effects of the above and still have a good chance to detect MultiCasting or MultiBoxing if they wanted to via methods like these (https://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/57973-Why-hardware-boxing-always-also-is-software-boxing?p=433194#post433194) but in the end it comes down to how many folk spend the resources to employ advanced countermeasures and how much Blizz wants to spend to counter them... Personally I don't/won't care at that point as I won't be playing if Blizz goes that route as I am not interested in trying to play outside the ToS...

The bottom line is there are no guaranteed tomorrows and Blizz can change their ToS and their interpretations of their ToS and the levels of enforcement of their ToS at any time so I would NOT invest tons of $ into any workaround... There are ways to play at least a 5box under the current understanding of the ToS without spending tons of $ so I would pursue those if you want to...

[Wootenblatz]

Personally I don't/won't care at that point as I won't be playing if Blizz goes that route as I am not interested in trying to play outside the ToS...

This is my sentiment as well. As soon as blizzard escalates their interpretation of the open ended EULA to ban Hardware sync, that is when I'm done. Playing cat and mouse with blizz to get around the latest actionable offense (really the detection of an actionable offense) makes us no different than the folks coding the bot software.

[Wootenblatz]

Right now as far as we know VMs are premitted and hardware broadcasting is at worst currently a gray area...

Can you elaborate on what you mean here? The input broadcasting announcement and the follow up blue post specifically talk about third party input broadcasting software. The follow up reiterates that playing multiple accounts is not against the ToS and that input broadcasting software is against the rules now. No specifics beyond that from what I saw.

Since blizzard has never officially supported multiboxing, we're never going to get a clear cut list of what is and is not allowed. They basically only tell us what is against the rules and occasionally a GM might provide contextual guidance for what kind of play is OK. Even a statement by a single GM in the forums or in a ticket reply isn't necessarily 'gospel' so to speak. More than one GM saying the same thing, that's probably something to adhere to.

This is basically the start and end of it for me right now: https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/24258

I'm very interested in any source material that makes you suggest virtual machines are safer than HW sync? While I am obviously in the HW sync camp, I like to know the landscape I'm in. If VMs were green lighted explicitly, this is something I want to read up on. Thanks.

[jak3676]

@Wootenblatz Yes, you are correct that all the official communication from Blizz was specifically prohibiting "input broadcasting software". All the discussion about hardware broadcasting is largely our own speculation.

There was 1 GM on the forums who told someone that they need to control their char's individually (which would seem to imply no broadcasting of any type), but you're correct that 1 GM post doesn't necessarily make that rule "canon" per say.

Some have speculated that Blizz may consider any hardware broadcasting to also be software broadcasting, as there's always micro-code/firmware/something running at some point, but I personally think that's a bit of a stretch. I don't think there have been any blue posts at all to clarify what they mean by "software".

Some of have speculated that Blizzard will not be able to tell the difference between software broadcast and hardware broadcasting when viewed from a server-side log. So you could be correct, but still get banned anyway and then subject to the competence level of whichever service rep gets assigned to look at your tickets.

Finally, some of us have speculated that what Blizz should have said was simply "no broadcasting" - and then followed that up with a clarifying post that 1 keystroke can only equal 1 in-game command on only 1 client. I think a few of us are advocating that should become our communities stance as that seems to be clear guidance that is the easiest to evaluate different options against, and the most difficult to abuse.

[nodoze]

Can you elaborate on what you mean here? The input broadcasting announcement and the follow up blue post specifically talk about third party input broadcasting software. The follow up reiterates that playing multiple accounts is not against the ToS and that input broadcasting software is against the rules now. No specifics beyond that from what I saw.

Since blizzard has never officially supported multiboxing, we're never going to get a clear cut list of what is and is not allowed. They basically only tell us what is against the rules and occasionally a GM might provide contextual guidance for what kind of play is OK. Even a statement by a single GM in the forums or in a ticket reply isn't necessarily 'gospel' so to speak. More than one GM saying the same thing, that's probably something to adhere to.

This is basically the start and end of it for me right now: https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/24258 ...Sure one can argue we are obeying the "Letter of the Law" because we are only "Hardware MultiCasting" and no longer "Software Multicasting" but why not just effectively Unicast and have "1 human action causing only 1 action in only 1 wow client" and be done with the risk? Even if you are hardware MultiCasting/BroadCasting you can easily bind each keybind in only 1 WoW client and result in 1 key causing 1 action in 1 client... (https://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/58010-Glimmer-of-light-Hardware-boxing-and-it-still-has-the-power!?p=433470&viewfull=1#post433470)

... I'm very interested in any source material that makes you suggest virtual machines are safer than HW sync? While I am obviously in the HW sync camp, I like to know the landscape I'm in. If VMs were green lighted explicitly, this is something I want to read up on. Thanks.As far as I know there is nothing in the ToS saying VMs are or are NOT allowed.

It was never my intent to suggest that VMs were safer nor more riskier... My points should have been focused on VMs/MDs being less complex, using less physical space/storage/RAM/CPU/electricity, and producing less heat.

I think you are conflating 2 different things...

1) The source/propagation of inputs (hardware/software) and whether those inputs are casted to multiple WoW clients or not...

vs.

2) The Destination of those clients are running on (PC, VM on a PC, or MD on a PC).

If running in a VM or a MD concerns you, even though there is nothing in the ToS restricting them, then by all means use PCs instead if you want...

None of this recent action was triggered because of people running in VMs... The Nuke hit us because of automation and Multicasting/Broadcasting being used in ways detrimental to the community...

[Wootenblatz]

Some have speculated that Blizz may consider any hardware broadcasting to also be software broadcasting, as there's always micro-code/firmware/something running at some point, but I personally think that's a bit of a stretch. I don't think there have been any blue posts at all to clarify what they mean by "software".

This isn't targeted directly at you, but to folks who are speculating on whether or not hardware sync is allowed, I ask this:

If Blizzard wanted to include hardware sync in the ToS change, why didn't they just say so?

I think that announcements like the one a few weeks ago are very carefully crafted. If their intention was to action hardware they would have made that clear. It is as simple as saying "third party input broadcast software and any hardware that sends input to more than one computer simultaneously". They repeatedly used the word software and did not mention hardware.

I'm hearing more people make the assessment that firmware == software. This is amusing to me to some extent. In a conceptual way, firmware is a program and so I get the mental gymnastics going on. In practice, these terms are not interchangeable for people who have worked with computers or in IT for any period of time.

Firmware represents programs that run computer hardware. They are not user serviceable beyond updating to the latest version. In many cases (like a USB switch), it's a closed code base that we cannot alter. As users of a system we never interact with the firmware itself, we interact through it while the hardware does what it is meant to do.

For most people, "Software" represents programs that run in the user space of a computer. This is software that we actually control, configure and use. It has a totally different purpose when compared to firmware. I encourage zero people to take my word for it though. They should spend some time with Google, tell them to look for "firmware vs software".

Even still, a non-syncing USB switch has firmware. So if HW sync is actionable some day, it will be for a reason that does not involve the overly simplified reason that firmware is software. They'll hit us with something a little more concrete, I feel.

[Prega]

tested aimos 4 ports logitech g502 hero and logitech g502 not working.
razer orbweaver works.

[jak3676]

Really surprised the orbweaver works. I could not get my Razer Tartarus pro to work (none of the main 1-20 keys worked - just the D-pad and scroll wheel). I thought the tartarus was just the newer version of the orbweaver - looks almost identical except for the scroll wheel under your index finger.

[Prega]

Really surprised the orbweaver works. I could not get my Razer Tartarus pro to work (none of the main 1-20 keys worked - just the D-pad and scroll wheel). I thought the tartarus was just the newer version of the orbweaver - looks almost identical except for the scroll wheel under your index finger.

yes mine is directly connected to aimos and it s seen by razer synapse. can change binding directly over aimos. orbweaver uses old synapse 2, maybe for that.
tomorrow should arrive aimos 8 ports, so can check with that too if there are changes

[Wootenblatz]

Really surprised the orbweaver works. I could not get my Razer Tartarus pro to work (none of the main 1-20 keys worked - just the D-pad and scroll wheel). I thought the tartarus was just the newer version of the orbweaver - looks almost identical except for the scroll wheel under your index finger.

Interesting, I almost bought that device until I found less expensive options. I was just looking at the Razer Support page for the Tartarus and they have this entry:

My Razer peripheral will not work properly when used with a KVM switch.
We recommend plugging your Razer product directly into your PC. KVM switches are known to cause interruptions in communications between devices and PCs. If your Razer product works when plugged directly into the computer, then it is working correctly, and the issue is most likely due to the KVM switch.

That is curious as further down in the FAQ they specifically address whether or not you have to use drivers. It suggests the thing should work like a regular keyboard without drivers.

[krumbl]

Thank you for documenting, helped me get going when I got my ShuOne, here's the hardware I've been able to setup and test

Corsair K70 not recognized as a keyboard at all (really disappointing to not be able to macro scroll lock + 0)
Razer Naga Trinity mouse works great with all key mappings
Logitech g502 macros do not work without software running and behaves only as normal mouse

[nodoze]

Thank you for documenting, helped me get going when I got my ShuOne, here's the hardware I've been able to setup and test

Corsair K70 not recognized as a keyboard at all (really disappointing to not be able to macro scroll lock + 0)
Razer Naga Trinity mouse works great with all key mappings
Logitech g502 macros do not work without software running and behaves only as normal mouseThe G keys on both my G613 keyboard & my G502 Hero mouse do NOT work when connected to my old KVM that I have been using for years (they work fine as a generic mouse/keyboard just no G programmability)...

I have the ShuOne here but haven't had time to test though I am not at all surprised to hear your G502 is not working...

Most modern devices need to be directly connected to the PC/VM and the software running on that PC to do macros... Older devices tended to use hardware storage of the macros but the shift in the more modern devices is to store the logic in software...

That is why I have been recommending the Koolertron devices as they indicate the store the macros in hardware and thus have a good chance to work fine when connected to a KVM/KM... You may need to directly connect the Koolertron to a PC running Koolertron software to program it but once the macros are programmed and stored in the hardware you should be able to move it and connect it to a KM/KVM and it should work just fine... The 2 Koolertrons that caught my eye and looked good in research at least were/are the:

- 48 key model: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B076LRJ528
- 23 key model: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07KT3RR56

I also have the 48 key here but no time to really test right now...

[nodoze]

The G keys on both my G613 keyboard & my G502 Hero mouse do NOT work when connected to my KVM (they work fine as a generic mouse/keyboard just no G programmability)...

I have the ShuOne here but haven't had time to test though I am not at all surprised to hear your G502 is not working...

Most modern devices need to be directly connected to the PC/VM and the software running on that PC to do macros... Older devices tended to use hardware storage of the macros but the shift in the more modern devices is to store the logic in software...

That is why I have been recommending the Koolertron devices as they indicate the store the macros in hardware and thus have a good chance to work fine when connected to a KVM/KM... You may need to directly connect the Koolertron to a PC running Koolertron software to program it but once the macros are programmed and stored in the hardware you should be able to move it and connect it to a KM/KVM and it should work just fine... The 2 Koolertrons that caught my eye and looked good in research at least were/are the:

- 48 key model: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B076LRJ528
- 23 key model: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07KT3RR56

I also have the 48 key here but no time to really test right now...EDIT: Tracking of Testing is now being done here so it is in one place in one easily accessible post:

https://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/58028-Input-Device-compatibility-testing-with-KVM-amp-KM-switches

Heads up that multiple people are having trouble getting the Koolertron keypads working through the KM switch so I would not order one if you haven't already (or if you got one try it with a different switch)...

If anyone does get a Koolertron working through the ShuOne please report back here any tips/tricks...

Test results with an Aimos 4 port Synchronous KVM switch (https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07R33HQNV) :


- OK: Razer Orbweaver;
- OK: Red Dragon M900 Legend;
- NOT ok: Logitech g502 Hero;
- NOT ok: Logitech g502;

Test results against the ShuOne 8 port Synchronouse KM switch (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NZSZFL8) :


- OK: Razer Naga Trinity mouse works great with all key mappings;
- NOT ok: Razer Tartarus Pro (only D-pad & scrollwheel);
- NOT ok: Logitech G600 functions as a normal mouse (side G buttons do nothing);
- NOT ok: Logitech G502 functions as a normal mouse (macros do not work);
- NOT ok: Corsair K70 not recognized as a keyboard at all (not able to macro scroll lock + 0);
- NOT ok: Koolertron 48 key Keypad;
- NOT ok: Koolertron 23 key Keypad;

[Prega]

- Razer Orbweaver works;

to update with some news about orbweaver, after some more tests:


- at start got it working , programmed new hotkeys binds and got these hotkeys working when linked to aimos 4 ports; and really surprised.

- after that tryed with kvm to switch in second pc and not worked, in same way;

- i was not sure if orbweaver has a onboard-memory, so removed totally synapse 2 from first test Pc and tryed to link again via aimos kvm:and, bad news, it resulted in get back original orbweaver keybinds:/ -> probably keybinds not saved inside any onboard-memory.

- after i tryed this: reinstall synapse 2, link orbweaver directly to pc, set keybinds with synapse, save profile and chroma, and with synapse running uncable from pc and connect inside kvm to reach same pc. now new saved keybinds looks like again working. i suspect my profile is saved locally with needed remote razer server interaction, old methods to share profiles maybe


- after this i tested on pc2: first razer orbweaver connected to kvm; install synapse2 over pc2; wait .... it take a bit to launch. switch/reset kvm button. kvm switch sets to 2; opened synapse2 login get back profile, mine called simply 2, and now it works on pc2, passing by kvm.

- final test: enable pc sync over kvm, this....... dots printed here&myotherPC are from orbweaver showing it working with custom keybinds. so custom keybinds looks GOOD
not sure about true macros, not tested.

a bit complicated.

probably at start i m going just to use a splitted-in-2 keyboard, binding a side for all and other for main

about g502/g502hero, looks like these mice have a onboard memory,
https://www.reddit.com/r/LogitechG/comments/bpzi0l/how_to_use_ghub_to_program_your_g502_lightspeed/
for other owners of g502/hero found a specific guide.
same again i setup new mouse keys with mouse directly linked to pc and save in onboard-memory to get it work. tested on 2x pc but not working. no macro/custom keybinds, but for both mice buttons are OK

at least after 1 fast test for me.


hope my experiments are clear enough :)

all tests with kvm aimos 4 ports

[jak3676]

I think we need to talk about this in at least 3 levels of functionality - GOOD is where macro's and added functionality work as intended, OK is where device functions, but only with default keybinds, BAD is where key pieces of the device do not function at all - the device is unusable.

Testing the ShuOne 8 port Synchronouse KM switch (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NZSZFL8) & Razer Basilisk v2 mouse - its OK. All mouse buttons function at default settings, but cannot program any macros or change keybinds. (I haven't tested, but I could probably change keybinds at the OS level)

Testing the ShuOne 8 port Synchronouse KM switch (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NZSZFL8) & Razer Tartarus Pro - its BAD. None of the main 1-20 keys register at all. Only the scroll wheel and d-pad function with default keybinds. The device is basically unusable

[nodoze]

I think we need to talk about this in at least 3 levels of functionality - GOOD is where macro's and added functionality work as intended, OK is where device functions, but only with default keybinds, BAD is where key pieces of the device do not function at all - the device is unusable.

Testing the ShuOne 8 port Synchronouse KM switch (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NZSZFL8) & Razer Basilisk v2 mouse - its OK. All mouse buttons function at default settings, but cannot program any macros or change keybinds. (I haven't tested, but I could probably change keybinds at the OS level)

Testing the ShuOne 8 port Synchronouse KM switch (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NZSZFL8) & Razer Tartarus Pro - its BAD. None of the main 1-20 keys register at all. Only the scroll wheel and d-pad function with default keybinds. The device is basically unusableMy brain was kinda hurting this morning trying to keep things straight so I started drafting a summary thread but then had to KVM to my stupid locked down work VPN machine until I finished my work day...

Just came back and saw your post so I went and edited the ratings in my draft before posting to accommodate.

Please post testing results (or adjustments to the ratings) to the end of this thread (https://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/58028-Input-Device-compatibility-testing-with-KVM-amp-KM-switches?p=433617#post433617) so we can track them easier...

[bloodshot]

@krumbl Can you please confirm the following with your ShuOne test as we have conflicting information :

1. What Razer Naga Trinity model are you using exactly?
2. What side buttons are you using? Razer lets you replace them.
3. Do macros work?
4. Do side buttons work?

Thanks!

[krumbl]

@krumbl Can you please confirm the following with your ShuOne test as we have conflicting information :

1. What Razer Naga Trinity model are you using exactly?
2. What side buttons are you using? Razer lets you replace them.
3. Do macros work?
4. Do side buttons work?

Thanks!

I didn't realize there were different models.

1. This is the one I have https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0788MCRGC
2. I'm using the 12 key pad on the side. It was also working with the ring of buttons. I assume they all function.
3. This is maybe where I have a different version, I only have the ability to do key mappings I don't see how to record macros.
4. Yes for example what I am doing is mapping side button 3 to shift+B in Synapse which in game is assigned to interact for all machines

[nodoze]

I didn't realize there were different models.

1. This is the one I have https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0788MCRGC
2. I'm using the 12 key pad on the side. It was also working with the ring of buttons. I assume they all function.
3. This is maybe where I have a different version, I only have the ability to do key mappings I don't see how to record macros.
4. Yes for example what I am doing is mapping side button 3 to shift+B in Synapse which in game is assigned to interact for all machinesYour testing differences could also be due to different Synapse software versions (or firmware on the device). You may also want to post/share what synapse software version you are using and what firmware levels you are at on the device (if the software shows you that).

[Ellay]

Just as an update, I'm still using this guide and was able to reduce the amount of keyboards I need to just one now.
So I'm a 1 keyboard, 2 mouse setup now. Even cleaner!

[Wolfino]

Hi Pega, I'm wondering if you where able to connect your Orbweaver to the aimos 8 port, I have the 4 port and the 8 port and in the 4 port it works with out a problem. but in the 8 port it does not want to be recognized.

[nodoze]

Hi Pega, I'm wondering if you where able to connect your Orbweaver to the aimos 8 port, I have the 4 port and the 8 port and in the 4 port it works with out a problem. but in the 8 port it does not want to be recognized.If you both end up having conflicting results it may be helpful to denote the full model numbers of your switches and which switch firmware you both are on and similarly the specific model number of the Orbweaver and firmware (if any) as well as what software and version you are running for the Orbweaver.

[yeaunome]

Aster + KM is really smooth so far. Couldn't get aster to play well when trying to 5 box on one computer, didnt like me trying to run 4 instances off my gpu and one off my igpu. I just put my 5th on my media server and its running well.

My one big issue is being able to use my 12 keys on the naga. It works with broadcasting on. However it creates the very annoying mouse 'bug'

I tried a dedicated km for each, the mouse and kb. However it's pointless as the kb km has to be on broadcast for the 12 keys on the naga to register.

Has anyone found any solutions? I can tolerate the mouse issue, as it only happens if Im in freelook, so I have just been cutting back on using it.

[briarknit]

@Wootenblatz I know you are using the kvm synchronizer but what actual PC hardware are you using? Like what are the specs of your other 4 pcs?

[nodoze]

@Wootenblatz I know you are using the kvm synchronizer but what actual PC hardware are you using? Like what are the specs of your other 4 pcs?From what I have seen it seems like many folk are actually doing the 4 slave PCs in Virtual Machines or MultSeat Desktops which allows a 5 box setup to be accomplished from 1 PC.

Virtual Machines (VMs) are typically done via a tool like VMware or VirtualBox.

Multiseat Desktops (MDs) are typically done via a tool like Aster and has the least overall overhead & duplication.

Wootneblatz may indeed be running 5 physical PCs and I look forward to hearing more about his configuration but wanted to make sure you were aware of other options that may be able to be achieved more cost effectively with mostly existing hardware (especially if that hardware was already supporting multiboxing).

[yeaunome]

Has anyone been able to macro the Win+1 -> Win+5 port switch binds with the razer synapse software? Trying to macro them to keys 1-5 and im not having any luck. I thought I remember seeing a post where someone was having to open their macro with an "alt' keypress prior to Windows Key down + 1 down + 1 up + Windows key Up

[Wootenblatz]

@Wootenblatz I know you are using the kvm synchronizer but what actual PC hardware are you using? Like what are the specs of your other 4 pcs?

I originally answered this in discord, I think you asked this there as well (maybe it was someone else):

Slot 2 - Laptop - Asus ROG laptop with i7 9th gen, 2070, 32GB ram
Slot 3 - Laptop - MSI laptop with i7 (circa 2015) with 1060, 16GB ram
Slot 4 - PC (custom built) - i5-3340 with AMD RX580 8GB ram
Slot 5 - PC (custom built) - i5-2500 with GTX 970 8GB ram

[Wootenblatz]

Has anyone been able to macro the Win+1 -> Win+5 port switch binds with the razer synapse software? Trying to macro them to keys 1-5 and im not having any luck. I thought I remember seeing a post where someone was having to open their macro with an "alt' keypress prior to Windows Key down + 1 down + 1 up + Windows key Up

I can't speak to the synapse part of your question but the OP covers the hot key to swap between winkey and alt. If you stick with winkey you're going to have to use PowerToys or regedit to disable the default windows behavior for those key strokes.

If you're willing to give up using ALT+1-5 for key binds in game, ALT is an easier hotkey to work with as compared to winkey.

[yeaunome]

Ya, I was hoping to rebind those. I thought I saw a post a couple of weeks ago where someone managed to do it successfully. Im using alt1-5 for now