Exp split in groups, when chars are at different levels - what data do we need to figure it out?

[jak3676]

I haven't found any source that explains how the experience is earned or divided among the group when characters are different levels - particularly when you have a high level char in the group boosting the others. What raw data would we need to have to begin developing some theories and possible formulas that we could test against?

We have a good understanding of the individual experience calculation. And when every char in the group is the same level we know that calculation.

EXP = ((Your Character Level * 5) + 45) * level difference modifier)
Elites give 200% exp
Group of 2: exp*0.5
Group of 3: exp*0.388
Group of 4: exp*0.325
Group of 5: exp*0.28

Source for level difference modifier: https://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/57267-Mob-EXP-by-Level

We often talk about how experience is divided based on average group level, but its clear there's a lot more going on.

When boosting in both RFC and then SFK I noted that my group's experience per mob killed went up every time they leveled - not by very much, maybe ~10% (whish I would have written down some numbers). I don't mean that I was clearing faster so I was getting more exp/run (I was boosting with my 60 mage so clear times were identical), but that all my alts were getting more experience per mob killed when they were L18 in RFC than they were at L17. I would have expected the opposite. I looked again at L22 vs L23 in SFK, and at L23 they were getting more experience per kill than at L22.

At one point, I kicked out one of my L18 alts and added a L10 into my RFC runs - my groups exp/mob went up (was not able to see the lower level char's experience compared to mine). I later took one of my L20's into an SM:Cath run (booster was L60, and other 3 were all in their mid 30's) and my L20 was getting far less experience than she was in an RFC run.

[jak3676]

I'll start. Not really sure what data we need yet, but have to start somewhere.

Killing the listed mob with the listed chars in party I was getting the following exp number. I was also seeing how having 1 or more char's dead or zoned out would impact experience - seems odd that the numbers were different with 1 char dead vs the same char zoned out


Mob\My level L60 L25 L23 L23 L23
L30 Elite N/A 150 132 132 132
L31 Elite N/A 150 132 132 132

Mob/My Level L60 L25* L23 L23 L23
L31 Elite N/A 0 82 82 82
L32 Boss N/A 0 164 164 164

Mob/My Level L60 L25** L23 L23 L23
L30 Elite N/A 0 82 82 82
* = Dead
** = Zoned out (Main party was in SM:Graveyard, L25 was in SM:Library
Also, if Elites award 200% exp, do bosses award 400% exp? I never noticed that before.

[nodoze]

To have a chance to derive a formula I would think we would need detailed tracking of all the levels in the party and the level of the mob and XP awarded (and whether it was elite or not). Would likely be smart to document the base XP and any bonuses denoted (group, rested, etc).

My initial thoughts raw data-wise would be something like:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WKueTIPwHwUvWswg1xB-ft88GjA1PYTgNQxZXlRjp4I/edit?usp=sharing

(this is not copy protected so you can copy it to your local google sheets drive)

Note: For now you could use color highlights to denote dead characters or zoned out characters. If later we wanted to factor those states into calculations the sheet would need to detect the cell color in the formula which I believe Excel can do so hopefully Google Sheets can also.

[jak3676]

Good idea on that spreadsheet - much better than the simplified table I was starting with.

I'm speculating that there could be 2 different modifications to the EXP formula going on here - will need some data and testing to see if these are 2 different functions or 1 combined function.



how much experience is earned
how that exp is being split among the team


For a single char, or for a group of chars of the same level, the exp earned & awarded is a simple matter of comparing your char level vs the mob level. Others have speculated that in a mixed level group experienced earned may be a matter of comparing each character's level against the mobs and then that exp is then pooled among the group before being divided. This initial part seems easy to test.


My initial speculation for awarding exp is that there's some sort of average group level that's calculated and then each character's deviation from that average level reduces experience awarded.

[nodoze]

I'm speculating that there could be 2 different modifications to the EXP formula going on here - will need some data and testing to see if these are 2 different functions or 1 combined function.



how much experience is earned
how that exp is being split among the team


For a single char, or for a group of chars of the same level, the exp earned & awarded is a simple matter of comparing your char level vs the mob level. Others have speculated that in a mixed level group experienced earned may be a matter of comparing each character's level against the mobs and then that exp is then pooled among the group before being divided.


My initial speculation for awarding exp is that there's some sort of average group level that's calculated and then each character's deviation from that average level reduces experience awarded.


Multiple people have denoted that there is indeed more going on than just the average group level.

Since the party may be of different levels we may need to denote what XP each slot is getting (if any). I will try to adjust the sheet in a min.

[Fuii]

My initial speculation is that there's some sort of average group level that's calculated and then each character's deviation from that average level reduces experience awarded.

That's the TL;DR

XP is affected by:
- mob level
- individual character level
- group size (in XP-range at time of kill)
- average group level (in XP-range at time of kill)
- mob type (normal 100% vs. elite 200%)

Mob base xp = character level * 5 + 45

To that the following modifiers will be applied (additive):

Difficulty mod = +5% per mob level above player level, up to +20%
Group bonus = up to 40% bonus for 5-man
Mob type = +100%

Thus the maximum bonus can be 160% on the base XP.
Resulting in an "effective base xp".

In a group the average group level is used for the difficulty modifier, instead of the individual level.

Example group: 20 / 20 / 20 / 20 / 60 => average is 28

The group is killing an elite monster of level 30, resulting in:


Base XP = 20 * 5 + 45 = 145 XP
Difficulty bonus = 10% (mob 2 level above grp avg) = 14.5 XP
Group bonus = 40% = 58 XP
Mob type bonus= 100% = 145 XP

Total XP = 363
XP for each lvl 20 = 73 (363 / 5)

Let's say one of the 20s is now 21, the rest remains 20 and the 60 boosting.
The lvl 20s will still get 73 XP.

However, the 1 additional level for the 21 char does increase his personal base xp from 145 to 150, thus:
(the average group level remains the same)

Base XP = 21 * 5 + 45 = 150 XP
Difficulty bonus = 10% (mob 2 level above grp avg) = 15 XP
Group bonus = 40% = 60 XP
Mob type bonus= 100% = 150 XP

Giving him the individual base XP of 375, divided by 5 netting 75 XP for the kill of the same mob.


That higher level people are getting more XP than lowbies is simply due to the base XP calculation.
That's Blizzard ways of capping the max XP per mob, regardless of level difference.


I'm actually more interested in the mechanic of pet-tag boosting and why an additional character in your group yields bonus XP, even if he's not in XP range.

[jak3676]

In your function above, you have base XP, group bonus XP and Mob type bonus all based on the individual char's level, and then only "Difficulty Mod" tied to party average level.

Like this:

XP = ((((Your Char Level * 5) + 45) + (Difficulty Mod for Avg Group Level) + Group Bonus + Mob Type bonus) / Chars in Party)


But this doesn't work. If you're party size is 1, you'll see that you need to have the difficulty mod applied to both the base XP and Mob type bonus.

In your above example, how would you handle a negative Difficulty Mod (i.e. where your individual or party average level is above the target mob level)?

*edit*
I did make 1 change to the spreadsheet to match what I'm seeing on the in-game combat log. Where combat log says, "<name> dies. You gain XXX experience. (+YY Rested bonus. +ZZ group bonus)". I'm listing XXX as the "Reported XP". So we'll have to subtract out Rested and Group bonus to get base XP later. This just makes data collection easier.

I'm filling in some numbers here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fwT9zWO9IdGBmoeuDT_vqa70ycRtx7rvDdc4Ozvm3Ss/edit?usp=sharing

[jak3676]

Starting with the simpliest group exp. I have 3x level 23's hitting L21, 22, 23 and 24 targets for 50 (7 group), 56 (8 group), 61 (8 group) and 64 (9 group) respectively.

XP = ((Your Char Level * 5) + 45) * level difference modifier) * 3-person group modifier

For 3x 23 chars hitting a L21 target that'd be:
XP = ((23 * 5) + 45) * 0.82) * 0.388 = 50.9056

For 3x 23 chars hitting a L22 target that'd be:
XP = ((23 * 5) + 45) * 0.91) * 0.388 = 56.4928

For 3x 23 chars hitting a L23 target that'd be:
XP = ((23 * 5) + 45) * 1) * 0.388 = 62.08

For 3x 23 chars hitting a L24 target that'd be:
XP = ((23 * 5) + 45) * 1.05) * 0.388 = 65.184

This all seems good. The calculations generally match what I observed. The base formula seems good, I'll have to dig into the groups of different levels later.

Disclaimer: I think I'm pretty accurate, but I can't be 100% certain about my observations. On most lines I observed the recorded numbers multiple times, but it didn't seem vaulable to report multiple entries. But I did already find a few recordings that seemed off, and when I went back and checked again I had to correct what I recorded earlier. Line 7 still seems like an error, but I checked multiple times that is what I observed. Line 8 also doesn't make sense to me. But I also think sometimes the combat log is either slightly off, or maybe there's just rounding errors elsewhere in the game and the log is just accurately reporting those errors. Eh, close enough for forum work. :confused::p

[nodoze]

Interesting analysis and good to have a formula to better understand things. Agreed recording reported XP and deducting bonus(es) makes more sense (I just threw the spreadsheet together quickly from memory and remembered it showed some bonus(es) but didn't remember exactly how the XP was being reported in the logs).

Thank you both for sharing the info.

[dokhda]

That's the TL;DR

XP is affected by:
- mob level
- individual character level
- group size (in XP-range at time of kill)
- average group level (in XP-range at time of kill)
- mob type (normal 100% vs. elite 200%)

Mob base xp = character level * 5 + 45

To that the following modifiers will be applied (additive):

Difficulty mod = +5% per mob level above player level, up to +20%
Group bonus = up to 40% bonus for 5-man
Mob type = +100%

Thus the maximum bonus can be 160% on the base XP.
Resulting in an "effective base xp".

In a group the average group level is used for the difficulty modifier, instead of the individual level.

Example group: 20 / 20 / 20 / 20 / 60 => average is 28

The group is killing an elite monster of level 30, resulting in:


Base XP = 20 * 5 + 45 = 145 XP
Difficulty bonus = 10% (mob 2 level above grp avg) = 14.5 XP
Group bonus = 40% = 58 XP
Mob type bonus= 100% = 145 XP

Total XP = 363
XP for each lvl 20 = 73 (363 / 5)

Let's say one of the 20s is now 21, the rest remains 20 and the 60 boosting.
The lvl 20s will still get 73 XP.

However, the 1 additional level for the 21 char does increase his personal base xp from 145 to 150, thus:
(the average group level remains the same)

Base XP = 21 * 5 + 45 = 150 XP
Difficulty bonus = 10% (mob 2 level above grp avg) = 15 XP
Group bonus = 40% = 60 XP
Mob type bonus= 100% = 150 XP

Giving him the individual base XP of 375, divided by 5 netting 75 XP for the kill of the same mob.


That higher level people are getting more XP than lowbies is simply due to the base XP calculation.
That's Blizzard ways of capping the max XP per mob, regardless of level difference.


I'm actually more interested in the mechanic of pet-tag boosting and why an additional character in your group yields bonus XP, even if he's not in XP range.

I ran these calcs through boosting a level 59 char through zg and it doesn't seem to match. What we are actually seeing is around 25k+ xp per run

so the parameter for the run are

mob levels are 60 elite with a total of around 48 elites (and 6 non-elites)
so focusing on the elites

Base XP = 59 * 5 + 45 = 340 XP
Difficulty bonus = 5% (mob 1 level above grp avg) = 17 XP
Group bonus = 0% = 0 xp
Mob type bonus= 100% = 340 XP

Total is 697 / 2 = 348.5
Total number of elites this comes to 16,728... this is well below what we see in practice, in fact this is what we generally close to what see for a level 50 char....level 59's get around 1.5 times this value. Is there another scalar I am missing?

[jak3676]

Is there another scalar I am missing?3

yes, I think there's at least 1, if not 2 or 3 more. What those functions are is the $25k question. I was already thinking there may be a "in dungeon" vs "outside of dungeon" variable as it seems like I get more dungeon elites than open world elites. Maybe there's a open world/dungeon/raid variable somewhere??? It does seem like ZG scaling is different than earlier 5-man dungeons.

[Moorea]

see also the google sheet linked in https://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/56033-XP-data-for-sizes-1-8?p=422199#post422199

[jak3676]

With all the TBC-Beta interest out there, a few people expressed some interest in figuring this out again. I don't really have anything to add - just pointing people the previous discussion that we've had on the topic.