4 pallys 1 druid

[Lewsifur]

So, thinking of coming back for classic. Took a break and enrolled in programming diploma instead of BFA. The other option was to shave my teeth with a blunt razor. :p
Sarcasm aside, after watching Mirai’s videos I’m thinking about a 4 pally, 1 druid team.

For those thst ran a prot/holy build, would a pro healing system setup be enough combined fast heals to roll 5 mans?
for raiding I’ll either spec a ret or run the druid as feral fir funs not min max.

Learning coding is swamping most of my time so bixing again for a quick run before iterations without waiting would be cool

Other thought was 2 pallyand 3 locks as a mxed geoup.

fedback ....?

[Moorea]

I'm going for 2 pallies 2 locks 1 mage on the ally side, will get 2 auras, 2 different pet buffs and mage utility

if I was doing melee team I would have a warrior in there (maybe 1 warrior 4 pallies or 4 warriors 1 pally... though a druid is useful for stealth etc)

[Apatheist]

Druids and paladins are two of the lowest DPS classes in the game. If IWT is working you could probably manage dungeons fine but it'll be slow, you'll have no real AoE damage or any way to CC mobs and you'll need to drink often. 1.5 gold per stack of level 45 water really adds up multiplied by 5 characters over time. You might use 2 stacks of water over an our or two in a level 55+ dungeon if you're conservative -- that's 15 gold worth of water out of whatever profit you're making farming dungeons (30-50g per run, usually.)

You probably won't be able to afford your mounts for some time. Flight paths in vanilla can take upwards of 15 minutes and then you have to wait for a boat.

I always advise a mage in your first group. Having access to a mage on one of your accounts with unlimited free food and water plus portals saves you an immense amount of gold and time when you're starting out.

My plan is to level with a mage in my group until I get all of the portals and the final rank of conjured water, then swap it out for another warlock. This way I can just summon the mage to me, fill up on consumables and portal wherever I need to go.

Moorea's composition is very similar to what I've come up with after a bunch of testing. 1 fury/prot Warrior, 2 prot/holy paladins, 1 SL warlock, 1 mage. Swapping the mage out for another SL warlock at 60. Plenty of CC and DPS. In PvP the ranged characters act like a turret, dotting everything in range and healing my warrior while I run around and kill everything. Based off the fact that I'm assuming follow is not going to work in PvP.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

I played melee (shams and druids) back before IWT with zero issues, though my teams were *all* melee, no mixed teams. Just a matter of learning how to position yourself, same way we have to learn how to position yourself for picking up mining/herb nodes.

[edit] PVE only for me, so PVP will be a completely different kettle of fish.

[Moorea]

Side bonus for my comp: only 1 mount to buy at 40 for the whole group so even in a bootstrap economy I should be able to afford it as soon as I ding (unlike my first vanilla toon I had to wait level 42 to afford a mount)

{not sure though if it'll be cheap mounts, expensive training or vice versa with the patch level ? either way locks and pally get the first one for free, right ?}

[Lewsifur]

Thanks for tips guys.

was thinking of turtling the dungeons. Large pulls, wear down multiple packs with and pallys as prot or shocks. Staggered pally loh, and blessing of wis and seals across group with druid buff.

will have the auras as well.

granted low dps, but survivability is there with bubbles, br and shadowmeld.

But my legion xperience sounds vastly different than classic it seems ....

Of course, can also change things up with three rets, pally holy and bear etc.

mounts cover d with free ie pally mounts and travel form.

[Apatheist]

"Turtling" isn't really a thing in classic. The game is a lot slower paced and mana conservation plays a much bigger role. Survivability is determined more by your healers mana, CC and DPS (killing stuff before it can do a lot of damage.)

There are a few instances where large AE pulls can be efficient with the right group (2xpaladin, 3xmage) but most of the time that isn't viable. For example, in Scholomance there's a ghost mob that does a significant AE shadow damage and knockback. If you pull too many of them you'll wipe in seconds no matter how geared your group is.

Druids also can't really hold threat on large groups. Swipe is their only AE skill and hits 3 targets. They take the most damage from large pulls out of any tank due to not having block or parry. They also can't use barkskin or consumables (armor potions, health potions, etc.) while in bear form.

If melee teams are your thing you really can't beat a mix of warriors and paladins. I prefer 2 holy paladins and 3 fury/prot warriors. You can toggle between dual wield in berserker stance and 1h/shield in defensive stance with a macro and cleave your way through dungeons. Super tanky, super mana efficient and great DPS. The healing from judgement of light alone on a dual wielding warrior is significant.

The only thing you're missing is the ability to remove curses. You could swap one of the paladins for a druid to give you access to remove curse if you're mainly focused on PvE however druids require a lot more micromanagement to play effectively.

[Kruschpakx4]

If melee teams are your thing you really can't beat a mix of warriors and paladins. I prefer 2 holy paladins and 3 fury/prot warriors. You can toggle between dual wield in berserker stance and 1h/shield in defensive stance with a macro and cleave your way through dungeons. Super tanky, super mana efficient and great DPS. The healing from judgement of light alone on a dual wielding warrior is significant.


dont forget whirlwind axe at lvl 30, its 2h but insane dmg for the next 10 level

[Apatheist]

dont forget whirlwind axe at lvl 30, its 2h but insane dmg for the next 10 level

That axe is really broken for its level and 2h fury is probably a smarter choice while leveling since it doesn't suffer as much from lack of hit rating. I just really like dual wielding for some reason. Especially with how insane the healing from judgement of light can be with two weapons and flurry -- your paladins don't even really need to heal you on some bosses. Not to mention crusader enchant on both weapons!

Picking up Thrash Blade from Maraudon quest at 45(ish) and then farming BRD for Ironfoe and Hand of Justice. Fury does amazing DPS in pre-raid BiS.

It's just annoying not being able to test this stuff since IWT doesn't work on private servers.

[Lewsifur]

Great point, swerving towards the war paly mix. Druid was mainly for alt spec play.
charge to named and rez and other cheesy goodness. Plus br and wild.

I had my 5 pally group on pro healing as tanks,
They would all cast their small heals simultaneously on the one acting tank which = a loh.

The aggro just shifted from tank to tank and it didnt matter, ut from what I gather they wont have enough healing power, even with multipl casting on one person in classic?

[Apatheist]

Paladins are excellent healers in both PvP and PvE in classic. It's not the healing that's the problem, it's the damage. A paladin will do around 1/3 of the damage of an equivalently geared warrior on a single target. On trash where you can cleave and whirlwind the gap is even worse.

This is the fury/prot build I use for leveling https://classicdb.ch/?talent#LZVVzA0xoVoxfzox

You sit in defensive stance and basically spam sunder, revenge and blooodthirst with a 2H weapon, or switch to 1H/Shield if you feel like you're taking too much damage. You'll do twice as much damage as an equal level mage.

When you get high enough to start running Scarlet Monastery, pick up a Ravager (https://classicdb.ch/?item=7717) on each of your warriors. It has a good proc chance -- once or twice per pull at least. Your cleave damage will beincredible all the way to 60. You can pull 2-3 packs of mobs at once and mow them down once you get a full set of plate armor. Paladins keep blessing of light/kings on your warriors and just spam flash of light for days. Don't go for healing power/spell power on paladins except on the weapon. Just stack as much intellect as you can find.

Added benefit, you only have to buy water for your 2 paladins. Much more affordable.

I've done this with a single warrior/paladin and it works really well. The warrior was out DPSing my casters consistently from 20-60 while tanking. 3-4 Warriors with IWT would be ridiculous.

[Kruschpakx4]

also if you run 5 mana classes that aren't warlocks and you dont bring a mage its gonna be annoying af. Either you passiv reg after every dungeon trash pack which is a huge waste of time or you constantly gotta ask a mage for water. If you buy water from vendor and farm dungeons you will drain roughly as much gold as you get.



When you get high enough to start running Scarlet Monastery, pick up a Ravager (https://classicdb.ch/?item=7717) on each of your warriors. It has a good proc chance -- once or twice per pull at least. Your cleave damage will beincredible all the way to 60. You can pull 2-3 packs of mobs at once and mow them down once you get a full set of plate armor. Paladins keep blessing of light/kings on your warriors and just spam flash of light for days. Don't go for healing power/spell power on paladins except on the weapon. Just stack as much intellect as you can find.


from what I've read in comments ravager bladestorm cancels if you press an ability which could get annyoing for mboxing.

[Apatheist]

from what I've read in comments ravager bladestorm cancels if you press an ability which could get annyoing for mboxing.

Could be. I was testing it a bit yesterday and it roots you in place during the proc, too. Annoying if it procs at the wrong time in PvP. Still fun for grinding trash quick though.

[Kruschpakx4]

Could be. I was testing it a bit yesterday and it roots you in place during the proc, too. Annoying if it procs at the wrong time in PvP. Still fun for grinding trash quick though.

hm yeah that sucks for pve aswell when you have mobs that run away at low health....did you test if it cancels on key press? because that would put the nail in the coffin, else I think whirlwind axe is equally good since bloodthirst scales with attack power

[Apatheist]

It doesn't cancel, you can continue using skills like cleave/whirlwind during the proc. Then again, who knows if these private servers are scripted properly?

It's a fun gimmick but I guess the whirlwind axe is more consistent DPS. The quest for whirlwind axe can be started at 30 but to complete it you need to kill a level 40 elite. Not sure if that'd be doable at 30 even with a full group. Maybe by 35-ish.

A fair bit of grinding to get all of the materials, too.

Liferoot (8)
Bloodscalp Tusk (30)
Essence of the Exile

That'll take a while on 3-4 characters. I also find class quests a bit annoying because then I have to grind a bit on my other characters to even out their XP. I'm weird about keeping them all the same level.

[Kruschpakx4]

It doesn't cancel, you can continue using skills like cleave/whirlwind during the proc. Then again, who knows if these private servers are scripted properly?


you could test the procc on retail? weapon & procc are still available but i dont have a subscription atm...i wouldn't trust private servers with that stuff especially procc rates or how they work

[Apatheist]

Haven't logged in to retail since MoP.

It's a minor difference either way, just something interesting to play with on a melee team.

[philadelphe]

What do you think about 2 shamans and 3 warriors ?
And if you think it is viable. Should I go with 1 shaman and 4 warriors or 2 shamans and 3 warriors ?

[Apatheist]

What do you think about 2 shamans and 3 warriors ?
And if you think it is viable. Should I go with 1 shaman and 4 warriors or 2 shamans and 3 warriors ?

For PvE and doing dungeons it will be great. You'll cleave through mobs super fast with warriors and windfury totem. Less optimal for PvP (IMO) because shamans have no way to dispel slows/roots so you'll be kited fairly easily.

Whether you want 2/3 or 1/4 is just a matter of preference. You'll do fine in PvE either way. The advantage to having 2 healers in PvP is being able to cross heal if one of your shamans gets CC'd. Your dungeon clear times will be slightly slower with 1 less DPS but you'll also be able to push faster. 2 Healers spamming downranked chain heal on 3 warriors should allow you to just go ham (within reason.)


/cast [target=mouseover,help,exists] [help] [target=targettarget, help, exists] Chain Heal(Rank 1) Should work fairly well. 99% Of the time you'll be able to get away with just spamming r1 chain heal on the mobs target. If you need to heal another character, just mouseover with a repeater region on your unit frame.

Having a mana tide totem every 2.5 minutes is also pretty nice.

[philadelphe]

Thx for your answer. What about the lack of decurse and dispel in 5man dungeons ?
I think i can run about everything without it but i'm not sure.

[Apatheist]

Thx for your answer. What about the lack of decurse and dispel in 5man dungeons ?
I think i can run about everything without it but i'm not sure.

Shamans can remove fear, charm, sleep, poison and disease which are some of the more serious debuffs. Magic debuffs don't have a huge impact, they tend to just be damage over time effects. I can think of a couple of mobs that polymorph or frost nova which is annoying but won't prevent you from finishing any dungeon. Curses tend to last a long time and can reduce attack power/speed but again won't prevent you from completing dungeons. If you come across a curse you find too obnoxious you can always keep a few restorative potions in your bags.

Trade skills are far more impactful in vanilla than any other version of the game. Limited invulnerability potion lets you AE taunt and then pot, forcing everything to attack you for 6 seconds while you're immune to all damage. Oil of immolation (alchemy) combined with dragonbreath chili (cooking) and goblin sapper charges (engineering) on all of your characters will do huge AE damage. Gift of Arthas (alchemy) causes everything that hits you to take slightly more damage from all attacks. Gnomish battle chicken trinket (engineering) has a buff that increases melee attack speed of your whole party for several minutes.

Will need to figure out a system for managing potions and engineering gadgets for sure. There are a ton and they're too powerful not to use in vanilla.

[Lewsifur]

Thanks for that advice. Been away struggling with python and had to stay away from the addiction. So with this setup I could drop a warrior, so another player coukd join and drive with a paladin. Is a druid an option for storming to a named, dying but saving the druid with shadowm ld to rez bakc, or is that too much if an ep loss?

[nodoze]

... Is a druid an option for storming to a named, dying but saving the druid with shadowm ld to rez bakc, or is that too much if an ep loss?Sorry I don't understand what you are saying. Maybe auto spell check or lack of spell check garbled your post.

Can you please re-post with no abbreviations and/or more detail as to the approach?

[MiRai]

... Is a druid an option for storming to a named, dying but saving the druid with shadowm ld to rez bakc, or is that too much if an ep loss?Sorry I don't understand what you are saying. Maybe auto spell check or lack of spell check garbled your post.

Can you please re-post with no abbreviations and/or more detail as to the approach?
It sounds like they're asking if it's viable to run to an area with a bunch of aggro and use Shadowmeld to drop it, similar to what people do today in Mythics, to which the answer is "no," because, in Classic, Shadowmeld doesn't work in combat.

[nodoze]

It sounds like they're asking if it's viable to run to an area with a bunch of aggro and use Shadowmeld to drop it, similar to what people do today in Mythics, to which the answer is "no," because, in Classic, Shadowmeld doesn't work in combat.OK. The best options I can think of off the top of my head for most classes would be to have the party storm to where they need to and then die and use soul stones to at least get a rezzer back who could rez the party or have a Paladin do a Divine Intervention on a rezzer.

A Hunter could Feign Death and if I recall correctly a Night Elf Hunter can actually somewhat use ShadowMeld in PVP combat by first Feigning Death and then ShadowMelding. I remember doing this periodically in BattleGrounds where I could Feign Death and then the enemy couldn't target my "dead body" because I Shadowmelded and they would have to come close & AoE to get me. Sometimes it seemed like in the heat of group battles people may have assumed I died and then quickly released... There may also be some options with Disengage, Freezing Trap, and ShadowMelding but I can't remember for sure...

[Lewsifur]

Ah, few good update their. Sorry for the delay, final exams.

So yes, aggro dropping using Shadowmeld was my intention, but that wont work.

At this stage, and a few threads, Ive settled on 3 warriors and 2 shammies.
That will open up aletrrnate totem dropping using advanced macros, low level rank heals cast simulateousoy from the shammies using the heal like a pro system and of course, charge to the named, die, and use a shammy to self rez, then rez others.

For those nights I only have a short time to chance gear upgrades.

shame a lot of other melee teams are running paladins :p’s. Need a horde boxing guild =)

[nodoze]

...use a shammy to self rez, then rez others. ... shame a lot of other melee teams are running paladins :p’s. Need a horde boxing guild =)With a Warlock on the team (or Parked at the entrance) could you achieve the same effect with Soul Stones?

While multiple Alliance folk have been pretty active on the forums I am pretty sure the Horde will have at least as many if not significantly more.

If people start putting their info into the following thread we will have a good feel of stats of Faction/classes/specs/races and who is thinking of which content on which type of server:

https://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/55707-List-of-Classic-WoW-Multibox-Teams

Just copy/paste the following questions into a new reply on that thread and then put in your answers (or delete the answers that don't fit):

Do you want to Guild with other boxers?:
Y:Yes, N:No, ?:Unsure;

What Realm Type are you interested in:
P:PVP, E:PVE, ?:Unsure;

What is the name of the Server you plan to be on:
?:TBD;

What Faction do you plan to play:
H:Horde

Do you plan to join World PVP with your Multibox team?:
M: Main Only, Yes:Y, No:N,?:Unsure;

Do you plan to go into Battle Grounds with your Multibox Team?:
M: Main Only, Yes:Y, No:N,?:Unsure;

Do you plan to go into Dungeons with your Multibox Team?:
D=Dungeons: Yes:Y;

Do you plan to go into Raids with your Multibox Team?:
R=Raids: M: Main Only, Yes:Y, No:N,?:Unsure;

LL: Planned Level for group: Range: 1-60;
60

Please denote your multibox party size: 1, 5, 10, etc;
5

Please denote your party composition :

2Shamans(Resto)Trolls/3Warriors(Fury)Undead and I plan to make my main ___________.

[Gala]

Having 3 warriors in the team really shouts for windfury totem. Too bad that holy pala and resto shami are on different factions in Vanilla so they can't be played together with the 3 warriors.

When it comes to pvp I'm a bit concerned that with a 3 warr 2 hpala setup the palys would just be chain feared to nirvana.

[nodoze]

Having 3 warriors in the team really shouts for windfury totem. Too bad that holy pala and resto shami are on different factions in Vanilla so they can't be played together with the 3 warriors.

When it comes to pvp I'm a bit concerned that with a 3 warr 2 hpala setup the palys would just be chain feared to nirvana.It depends on how you play. Being the initiator with first mover advantage into fights of your choosing with 10-30 seconds of immunity & +60% move speed can be very strong. Here is a great post from Apathiest on that topic:
It really depends on the situation. If you charge into a raid with 4 warriors you're probably going to die. If you're part of a zerg vs zerg fight though where you're not the only target, you can definitely do some work with warriors if you're patient and dive at the right time. Especially as alliance with paladin healers. Preemptively pop freedom, death wish and skull [of impending doom] and your warriors are effectively immune to all CC for the next 10-30 seconds with a 60% run speed buff. You will just chainsaw through people as fast as you can get on them.

However, if the enemy is smart and just focuses you you will still die fast. SL Warlocks just mashing DoT's on everything from range would probably contribute more to a PvP raid and stay alive longer. ...

[Gala]

It depends on how you play. Being the initiator with first mover advantage into fights of your choosing with 10-30 seconds of immunity & +60% move speed can be very strong. Here is a great post from Apathiest on that topic:
The thing is that the holy palys would stay in the back to cast their heals, right? I mean, it wouldn't make much sense that they follow the warriors into melee range.
I'm not sure how good a team that is split in two groups, the backline healers and the warriors in the front, can be controlled in PvP.
Smart opponents will either ignore the warriors and slaughter the backline healers or they chain CC the holy palys with aoe fear and kill the warrs in mean time.
Is Intervene available in Classic? I guess that ability would be important so when the opponents decide to go for the backline healers the warrs are able to intervene back to their healers to protect them.

[nodoze]

The thing is that the holy palys would stay in the back to cast their heals, right? I mean, it wouldn't make much sense that they follow the warriors into melee range.
I'm not sure how good a team that is split in two groups, the backline healers and the warriors in the front, can be controlled in PvP.
Smart opponents will either ignore the warriors and slaughter the backline healers or they chain CC the holy palys with aoe fear and kill the warrs in mean time.
Is Intervene available in Classic? I guess that ability would be important so when the opponents decide to go for the backline healers the warrs are able to intervene back to their healers to protect them.If you are facing a group then likely you should be in a group as well. It may well be hard to ignore 3 Warriors with +60% move speed who are immune to CC and Focusing on Targets. Paladins would be on the far side of the Warriors so you would have to get past the Warriors first. If you get past them the Warriors have intercept/charge, stuns and hamstrings and the 3 Warriors can take turns chaining them on you.

Even if you get to the Paladins, in Classic Paladins are pretty hardy in plate and shield and between divine-shield/divine-protection/BlessingOfProtection/LayOnHands you essentially have to kill them 2 or 3 times while you are "ignoring the warriors"... Remember also that there are two Paladins who can cleanse/heal each other they can take turns chaining their bubbles and the one protected can cleanse/heal the other non-protected one and vice-versa... They are hard to kill to begin with and very hard if the have a dedicated healer...

Not saying it is insurmountable by any means but I think you are giving the team composition short shrift... A single Warrior with a single Paladin is one of the strongest duos in Classic WoW & 3+2 is only stronger.

[Apatheist]

Having two stacks is actually helpful in PvP. It makes it harder to cleave you. More like 3 "stacks" since your warriors would be stacked chasing targets and I tab between the two paladins, positioning them between heals or kiting when one starts taking damage. No matter what your group composition is, if you pick a fight with 20 players you're going to lose but warriors and paladins have more survivability and ways to avoid CC than most.

In large scale fights you just have to play conservatively. Pick off players that get separated and protect your clothies from rogues, etc. Once the enemy starts getting pushed back you can charge in and go ham.

[Gala]

What spec would the warriors have for PvP purpose?
From what I have read so far Arms is the superior spec in PvP. Fury has high sustain dmg while Arms has more burst and burst is all that we need as a melee boxer in pvp.
The default dmg rotation of a arms warrior requires stance dancing. Battle stance for mortal strike, overpower, sweeping strike and Berserker stance for whirlwind. I'm curious if it's even possible to manage a flawless dmg rotation on multiple warriors when keeping the rng factor of rage in mind and the necessity to stance dance for default dmg abilitys.

It seems to me like a flawless dmg rota would be only with fury warriors manageable. Maybe two hand fury warriors for pvp. Isn't that a suboptimal spec compared to Arms?

[nodoze]

What spec would the warriors have for PvP purpose?
From what I have read so far Arms is the superior spec in PvP. Fury has high sustain dmg while Arms has more burst and burst is all that we need as a melee boxer in pvp.
The default dmg rotation of a arms warrior requires stance dancing. Battle stance for mortal strike, overpower, sweeping strike and Berserker stance for whirlwind. I'm curious if it's even possible to manage a flawless dmg rotation on multiple warriors when keeping the rng factor of rage in mind and the necessity to stance dance for default dmg abilitys.

It seems to me like a flawless dmg rota would be only with fury warriors possible. Maybe two hand fury warriors for pvp. Isn't that a suboptimal spec compared to Arms?Honestly at this point I don't know as I am not an expert on Warriors as I mainly prefer to play Paladins and Druids (and I liked Shaman as well when BC came out). At this point the only spec I have is the one I think is for grinding BiS gear:

https://classicdb.ch/?talent#LZVVzA0xoVoxfzox

I don't know if that spec should be changed to be more PVP focused once BiS gear grinding is done.

With 3 un-CCable Warriors attacking a single target I suspect the rotation will not need to be optimal as most targets/classes will just melt regardless.




(https://classicdb.ch/?talent#LZVVzA0xoVoxfzox)

[xandorz]

Is Intervene available in Classic?
Intervene is a TBC ability.

I don't know how people intend to play their warriors but I assume you want to stay in berserker stance since you can't activate Berserker rage or intercept when needed otherwise. I think Pummel is also berserker stance.
Rage generation is very RNG (based on damage done, absorb = no rage, crit = more rage) so most likely losing a lot of rage when stance dancing and abilities not hitting at the same time because of different amount of rage.

I assume that fury is probably the best multiboxing spec. I think fury have a lot better dps and it gets shorter intercept cd and death wish to stay on target and nuke harder.
I read someone say that you get less rage in berserker stance and very little in defensive stance (when not taking damage), I am not sure if that is true. Possible that someone just made that up.

Not having Mortal Strike might be really bad though.
If opponent have 2 healer and mortal strike and you don't, then they will heal twice as fast as you and likely also using interrupts and silence on your healers while you have no way to interrupt them except with warriors which might not be able to reach the opponents healer because of kiting / running out of range of your own healers who gets slowed/cced far behind.

Another note in pvp is that 1 mage behind your paladins can use counterspell on 1 paladin and then polymorph on the other, to prevent any healing for 10 seconds. (unless the polymorphed paladin uses divine shield)

[Gala]

Not having Mortal Strike might be really bad though.
If opponent have 2 healer and mortal strike and you don't, then they will heal twice as fast as you and likely also using interrupts and silence on your healers while you have no way to interrupt them except with warriors which might not be able to reach the opponents healer because of kiting / running out of range of your own healers who gets slowed/cced far behind.
I'm thinking the same. Mortal strike seems mandatory in PvP. Not only because of the heal reduction but also because it deals a shit load of dmg.
The thing with fury is that it has lots of talents that increase your sustain dmg such as flurry. Sustain dmg is not really what we need as melee boxer in pvp.


Another note in pvp is that 1 mage behind your paladins can use counterspell on 1 paladin and then polymorph on the other, to prevent any healing for 10 seconds. (unless the polymorphed paladin uses divine shield)
Or just a priest who runs on his mount to the palys to aoe fear them. They will be forced to waist their trinket or bubble on that fear.

[nodoze]

...Another note in pvp is that 1 mage behind your paladins can use counterspell on 1 paladin and then polymorph on the other, to prevent any healing for 10 seconds. (unless the polymorphed paladin uses divine shield)
... Or just a priest who runs on his mount to the palys to aoe fear them. They will be forced to waist their trinket or bubble on that fear.CounterSpell in 1.12 is indeed OP and thankfully it has a 25-30 second cooldown. At least Paladins are one of the few classes with a native 15% chance to resist a CounterSpell due to Improved Concentration Aura which makes it semi-unreliable against Paladins. Thankfully the 3 CC immune Warriors can indefinitely "Counterspell" the Mage by chaining their 3 Pummels (which lockdown for 4 seconds each with no diminishing returns) so that is essentially 12 seconds of lockout with only a 10 second cool-down...

If I recall correctly in PVP Polymorph only lasts 8 seconds, is subject to diminishing returns, and can be cleansed by the other Paladin (if not also CCed). A Paladin can chain Skull of Impending doom (SID) with their PVP trinket to clear Polymorph and get 10 seconds of Polymorph immunity. If they chain the SID with bubble it should be 18 seconds of Polymorph immunity... If the other Paladin then chains that could be 36 seconds of Polymorph immunity between the duo. That is a long time for 3 CC Immune Warriors with +60% run speed and intercepts to be swarming the Mage...

Note that smart Paladins won't sit right next to each other (their cleanses have 30 yard range & heals are 40 yard range) and their cleanses are instants with no cool-down so you have to CC both at essentially the same time... In a boxing scenario a combat spread macro should give the Paladins enough separation to not be a group target (so AoE fears will NOT work) and if the Paladins get more than 30 yards apart, any attempt to cleanse the other Paladin by either Paladin with IWT should cause them to automatically close within 30 yards of each other...

Fear should also be semi-unreliable to land on Paladins in PVP as a Healing Paladin should have a flat 10% resistance to fear due to Unyielding Faith before their base Shadow resistance of 104+ kicks in (from Judgement Helm (10), 3 Lawbringer pieces (24), GMI(10), and Shadow Aura (60) ). That 104 Shadow Resistance is only with 4 pieces of armor & 1 Trinket slot and thus could be increased and that is before any consumables/enchants/buffs/etc...

If a Fear does land on only 1 Paladin it isn't a big deal as the other can instantaneously cleanse it.

If Fear does land on both Paladins each Paladin has 2 Reactive Fear self-breakers (Trinket & Bubble) & either can use one to essentially free both so you would need to simultaneously get both 5 times to lock them down and even then the Paladins would be in severe diminishing returns territory if not fully immune at that point anyway...

Each Paladin should also have 30 seconds of Proactive Fear self-immunity (from Glimmering Mithril Insignia) so if their 4 Reactives are all going on cool-down they could go Proactive on the 4th Reactive pop and chain to essentially then give the duo 1 minute of Fear immunity... Alternatively they could be Proactive from the beginning of the fight when they see a threat getting close and save their Reactives till the 2nd+ minutes of the fight at which point you have to CC both simultaneously 5 times to get past all reactive cool-downs...

All of the above is assuming the duo Paladins are just sitting there taking it with no help from their 3 Warriors nor anyone else in their World PVP faction...

Offensively the 3 Warriors CAN AoE Chain Fear you (6 seconds each, subject to diminishing returns) and their Fear can NOT be cleansed from you... The 2 Paladins can also preemptively chain stun you (6 seconds each, subject to diminishing returns), etc.. There are likely other options as well (3 Tidal Charms from the Warriors, Engineering items, other skills, etc)...

Bottom line is that I never, ever, met a single player in literally hundreds (if not thousands) of PVP fights who could consistently CC my brother and I simultaneously when we were both on our Paladins when we ran together (him more Prot and me more Holy) as we kept cleansing each other near instantaneously and had multiple options to fall back on in the rare occasions we both did get caught. I learned to instinctively keep myself between 20-28 yards from my brother at all times with me keeping him between the enemies and I when I could & we made cleansing each other a priority.

Many times the two of us made it through 2-6 enemies in WSG with him carrying the flag with them going "WTF just happened?" as they could not stop us between chaining blessing of Freedoms, Free Action Potions, and dual instant cleanses and heals (with skulls &/or dual lay-on-hands as extreme backups)... Didn't always work but certainly worked more often than not... Even when we did both get briefly CC'ed my brother was so damn tanky that it was hard to kill him and if they attacked him and broke his CC he would cleanse me and we were off to the races again...

Regardless you both have made lots of good points and as said previously I think the most optimal approach in zerg vs zerg will be playing smart and focusing on targets of opportunity as per this quote:
It really depends on the situation. If you charge into a raid with 4 warriors you're probably going to die. If you're part of a zerg vs zerg fight though where you're not the only target, you can definitely do some work with warriors if you're patient and dive at the right time. Especially as alliance with paladin healers. Preemptively pop freedom, death wish and skull [of impending doom] and your warriors are effectively immune to all CC for the next 10-30 seconds with a 60% run speed buff. You will just chainsaw through people as fast as you can get on them.

However, if the enemy is smart and just focuses you you will still die fast. SL Warlocks just mashing DoT's on everything from range would probably contribute more to a PvP raid and stay alive longer. ...See also the above section in bold where it was already mentioned that a group of caster types could indeed be more optimal for PVP... No one ever said the Warriors+Paladins were the optimal group for PVP so I don't know why people are trying to argue that they aren't (because it was already said they weren't)...

Bottom line for me is that my primary goal never was optimal 5boxing in World PVP anyway. My goal is to end up with 2 end-game Raid & PVP capable Paladins and one Warrior with anything extra being a bonus (a Druid would be great).

I only PVPed in Classic on my main Paladin Healer with my brother on his Paladin main (as Prot or Ret) and and that will be fine with me if that is all we get out of this PVP wise (though I would like to also have a druid option for WSG Flag Running and joining all stealth parties from time to time).

Since my brother really played his Paladin like a Warrior my hope is that he is willing to try (and then will fall in love with) the best geared Warrior of our 5man team but if not then the 2nd Paladin will be there for him.

TLDR: It really isn't as easy to CC 2+ Paladins as you think... Regardless I really only care about at most duoing (with real people behind both characters) and the only classes that matter for that duo with my brother are really Paladins (though I really hope he likes the warrior more since he plays his Paladin like a warrior). I already know from experience that duo Paladins was fun enough for both of us... Everything else is gravy... I do plan to try 5boxing in World PVP and try to do it smartly but it isn't a big deal to me if it isn't that successful.

[Apatheist]

If you're exclusively interested in PvP and don't care about anything else the strongest overall 5man is probably just 5 elemental shamans. They do a ton of burst and have massive survivability through high armor, grounding/tremor totems.

My issue has always been I just really dislike shamans in PvE. Though, if the dungeons continue being as easy as they are on beta enhance tanking with magma totems may be decent enough clear to try. Have to watch some streams of some of the higher level dungeons.

[nodoze]

If you're exclusively interested in PvP and don't care about anything else the strongest overall 5man is probably just 5 elemental shamans. They do a ton of burst and have massive survivability through high armor, grounding/tremor totems.

My issue has always been I just really dislike shamans in PvE. Though, if the dungeons continue being as easy as they are on beta enhance tanking with magma totems may be decent enough clear to try. Have to watch some streams of some of the higher level dungeons.

Can't they also do good healing?

[Gala]

No one ever said the Warriors+Paladins were the optimal group for PVP so I don't know why people are trying to argue that they aren't (because it was already said they weren't)...
Well, arguing about the PvP/PvE viability of different setups is a good thing.
Keep in mind that it will take A LOT of time to level to 60 as a multiboxer. I rather want to make the right decision and level the overall most viable comb than realising on max lvl that the setup is suboptimal.

That beeing said I don't think that the warriors are bad. When it comes to 5 man dungeons 3-4 warriors with 1-2 healer seem like the best setup to me. Its a hard decision if its resto shami or holy paly that would fit better to that comb. WF totem sounds powerful but blessing of freedom as well. Maybe the lack of blessing of freedom could be compensated with free action potions when it comes to PvP.

When it's only about pvp then I guess that something like 3 locks 2 rshamis or 3 ele shamis 2 resto shamis would work overall better than the warriors but it's questionable if it's worth to roll such a setup when follow in BGs doesn't even work. Both setups sound kinda sucky in PvE compared to the warriors.

[nodoze]

Well, arguing about the PvP/PvE viability of different setups is a good thing.
Keep in mind that it will take A LOT of time to level to 60 as a multiboxer. I rather want to make the right decision and level the overall most viable comb than realising on max lvl that the setup is suboptimal.

That beeing said I don't think that the warriors are bad. When it comes to 5 man dungeons 3-4 warriors with 1-2 healer seem like the best setup to me. Its a hard decision if its resto shami or holy paly that would fit better to that comb. WF totem sounds powerful but blessing of freedom as well. Maybe the lack of blessing of freedom could be compensated with free action potions when it comes to PvP.

When it's only about pvp then I guess that something like 3 locks 2 rshamis or 3 ele shamis 2 resto shamis would work overall better than the warriors but it's questionable if it's worth to roll such a setup when follow in BGs doesn't even work. Both setups sound kinda sucky in PvE compared to the warriors.I agree on the value of discussion but I guess it just seemed to me that we were beating a dead horse & that the party composition was being given short shrift. I am realizing right now that I am pretty tired and I can get cranky when I get tired so maybe that factored in earlier as well (sorry if it did)...

In the 3 Warrior/2 Healer options I don't know that BoF is as important in PVE as I mainly think of it as a PVP blessing (though I could be wrong). For PVE I think of more BoKings & BoMight for the Warriors with seal of light passive healing. Totems (especially WF) and Chain heals may put the Shaman group ahead of the Paladin group on DPS if they can keep from going OOM but I don't know which is actually better. I am not that concerned about it as I want to main a Paladin so Shaman(s) aren't an option for me anyway.

Warriors with Paladins should be able stack/chain the Free Action Potions with BoF so you get both.

My assumption has been that the only PVP Multi-Boxing that will be viable is in the Open World (not BGs) though I don't know if that is 100% confirmed yet.

I agree that 5 Shaman could be very crazy in PVP but likely would at most spec 1 deep Resto as the Elementals can all heal pretty well.

In PVE with 5 Shaman I would have grave concerns with mana in PVE and the lack of a tank option so maybe 3 Warlocks/2 Shaman would be better for a PVE/PVP team (assuming a method of /focus is devised). That or do a Druid Tank+4Shaman (& the Druid can switch to ranged for PVP allowing you to still have an all range team).

In the end my dungeon team is mainly for feeding gear/gold to our 2 Paladins, 1 Warrior, & ideally a Druid so what I personally care most about is PVE efficiency for my team (I am likely going switch from 3W+2P to 1 Druid+2 Warriors+2 Paladins). For PVP I assume I will only be taking a single character per player into BGs so I don't care that much if I end up doing the same for Open World PVP.

[Gala]

My post was a bit misleading. I ment BoF for pvp purpose. I don't think that it has much value in PvE.

When it comes to shami boxing I assume that x3 LB/CL + x3 shock will be enough to oneshot players on max lvl. So maybe it makes sense to have 3 ele and 2 resto for the mana tide totems. The resto shamis could still use instant CL and shock with the team, just hardcasting lightning spells would probably be not worth it with the restos.

[Dawkinz]

I'm also planning on doing a 5 man dungeon crawl setup. I'm conflcited between three comps: 1 Warrior 3 Paladins 1 Druid, 2 Warrior 2 Paladins 1 Druid, and 3 Warriors 2 Paladins. I'm leaning first setup for all the extra buffs (thorns, MotW, Leader of the Pack, wisdom, might and kings from the pallies).

Thoughts?

[nodoze]

I'm also planning on doing a 5 man dungeon crawl setup. I'm conflcited between three comps:

-1 Warrior 3 Paladins 1 Druid,
-2 Warrior 2 Paladins 1 Druid, and
-3 Warriors 2 Paladins.

I'm leaning first setup for all the extra buffs (thorns, MotW, Leader of the Pack, wisdom, might and kings from the pallies).

Thoughts?

I am a huge fan of Hybrid Druids and Paladins (even Shaman) and would love option 1 in theory but unfortunately in 1.12 the following are key considerations:


Druids and paladins are two of the lowest DPS classes in the game. If IWT is working you could probably manage dungeons fine but it'll be slow, you'll have no real AoE damage or any way to CC mobs and you'll need to drink often. 1.5 gold per stack of level 45 water really adds up multiplied by [4 or] 5 characters over time. You might use 2 stacks of water over an our or two in a level 55+ dungeon if you're conservative -- that's 15 gold worth of water out of whatever profit you're making farming dungeons (30-50g per run, usually.) ...

If you are wondering how much slower? How much less DPS? Relatively:


Paladins are excellent healers in both PvP and PvE in classic. It's not the healing that's the problem, it's the damage. A paladin will do around 1/3 of the damage of an equivalently geared warrior on a single target. On trash where you can cleave and whirlwind the gap is even worse.

This is the fury/prot build I use for leveling https://classicdb.ch/?talent#LZVVzA0xoVoxfzox

You sit in defensive stance and basically spam sunder, revenge and blooodthirst with a 2H weapon, or switch to 1H/Shield if you feel like you're taking too much damage. [With a Warrior] You'll do twice as much damage as an equal level mage.

...
I've done this with a single warrior/paladin and it works really well. The warrior was out DPSing my casters consistently from 20-60 while tanking. 3-4 Warriors with IWT would be ridiculous.

Some other similar comments regarding relative DPS from different group composition options:


... No idea the exact numbers but I imagine most preraid BiS warrior will do around 400-500DPS anywhere up to 700+ depending if there are adds to cleave. An enhance shaman will be more like 150-200DPS. ...


Warriors have stronger AE [damage] on standard mob packs (4-6) with cleave/whilrlwind. Mages and warlocks have stronger AE [damage] on larger packs because their AE skills have no cap. However, you only really utilize large scale AE farming in dungeons that are significantly lower level than you. ...

In the later phases the balance does shift toward casters due to AQ40 and Naxx gear but you have to be able to raid on all your character to get that gear on every character and regardless those phases are likely way off in the future relatively...

With all the above in mind, of the options you posed, I would generally recommend for most people your option 3 (3 Warriors+2 Paladins).

That being said, if you like Druids and want to have a Druid option for stealth scouting, Flag Running, etc I would recommend strongly considering option 2 (1 Druid+2 Warriors+2 Paladin);

Personally I was originally going with 3 Warriors+2 Paladins but now am strongly leaning toward swapping 1 Warrior for a Druid (1 Druid+2 Warriors+2 Paladin)...

[Lewsifur]

If you like world pvp then 2 druids. 3 rogues is fun ... just leave one unstealthed. Also a good melee team for dungeons, but have to manage rogues combo points using the advanced system

[Dawkinz]

I am a huge fan of Hybrid Druids and Paladins (even Shaman) and would love option 1 in theory but unfortunately in 1.12 the following are key considerations:



If you are wondering how much slower? How much less DPS? Relatively:



Some other similar comments regarding relative DPS from different group composition options:





In the later phases the balance does shift toward casters due to AQ40 and Naxx gear but you have to be able to raid to get that gear and those phases are likely way off in the future relatively...

With all the above in mind, of the options you posed, I would generally recommend for most people your option 3 (3 Warriors+2 Paladins).

That being said, if you like Druids and want to have a Druid option for stealth scouting, Flag Running, etc I would recommend strongly considering option 2 (1 Druid+2 Warriors+2 Paladin);

Personally I was originally going with 3 Warriors+2 Paladins but now am strongly leaning toward swapping 1 Warrior for a Druid (1 Druid+2 Warriors+2 Paladin)...

That was extremely helpful and thorough. I'm going 3 wars 2 paladins. You've sold me lol.

[nodoze]

That was extremely helpful and thorough. I'm going 3 wars 2 paladins. You've sold me lol.Thanks though much of the credit goes to Apatheist as he is the original source of that info and has actually boxed those combos. I am just the hybrid research guy :D who literally opens 1,000s of browser/spreadsheet tabs and then tries to crams all the info into my head that I can (and then tries to bookmark everything so I can try go back to it). I am only an expert on healing Warriors (not playing them) as for me the other classes in my groups are mainly there to feed my Hybrids or other Mains (or my brother's Main(s) which may be one of our Warriors) so I can't really speak from personal expertise on things like Warriors...

It would be helpful if you could post at the end of the 'List of Classic WoW Multibox Teams (https://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/55707-List-of-Classic-WoW-Multibox-Teams)' thread your team composition including answering the following questions (don't worry about the formatting or abbreviations as I can take care of that):

Which of the group, if any, would you consider as your "Main" for content where only Mains are welcome/viable (like maybe in "Progression Raids" & BattleGrounds)?

Do you want to Guild with other boxers?:
Y:Yes, N:No, ?:Unsure;

What Realm Type are you interested in:
P:PVP, E:PVE, ?:Unsure;

What is the name of the Server you plan to be on:
?:TBD;

Do you plan to join World PVP with your Multibox team?:
M: Main Only, Yes:Y, No:N,?:Unsure;

Do you plan to go into Battle Grounds with your Multibox Team?:
M: Main Only, Yes:Y, No:N,?:Unsure;

Do you plan to go into Dungeons with your Multibox Team?:
D=Dungeons: M: Main Only, Yes:Y, No:N,?:Unsure;

Do you plan to go into Raids with your Multibox Team?:
R=Raids: M: Main Only, Yes:Y, No:N,?:Unsure;

[pobdoq]

Why take 3 warriors and 2 paladins? Isn't it better to just take 4 warriors and 1 paladin? I don't see what 2 healers are good for.

I don't have much experience with multi-boxing in instances, so sorry if this is a stupid question.

[Gala]

Why take 3 warriors and 2 paladins? Isn't it better to just take 4 warriors and 1 paladin? I don't see what 2 healers are good for.

I don't have much experience with multi-boxing in instances, so sorry if this is a stupid question.
Palys have two kind of main healing abilitys: Flash of light heals like a wet noodle but is very mana efficient and Holy light does tons of heal but drains your mana quickly.
When you have just one hpala for the dungeon then the incoming dmg will force you to cast holy light quite frequently so you'll need lots of mana breaks.
With two palys you can spam mostly flash of light and you'll need significant less mana breaks.

When it comes to pvp you'll have huge issues when you have just one paly in your team because opponents will just focus him and interrupt all his healing spells while your warriors have almost nothing to back him up. However, two palys can heal each other. Also, 2x blessing of freedom is better for the warrs than just one.

[nodoze]

Why take 3 warriors and 2 paladins? Isn't it better to just take 4 warriors and 1 paladin? I don't see what 2 healers are good for.

I don't have much experience with multi-boxing in instances, so sorry if this is a stupid question.

If 4 Warriors you would likely be running PVE as 1 Tank-Warrior+3 DPS Warriors+1 Healing Paladin;
If 3 Warriors you would likely be running PVE as 3 DPS Warriors + 2 Healing Paladins;

The DPS of the 2 Groups is somewhat comparable (both have 3 DPS and the the 3+2 has an extra buff/aura/seal);

In the 3+2 the Paladins run in melee range and both Seal/Judge and regen BOTH health and mana (warriors only health). In 4+1 you have to decide whether you regen Health or Mana and you only have 1 mana pool for healing...

In the 4+1 the Threat management is more controlled and the subsequent incoming damage is more mitigated due to a dedicated Tank in Defensive stance with a Shield and more suited to a single healer; Play-style-wise the 4+1 is more like a traditional pro-active "Tank and Spank".

In the 3+2 the threat ping-pongs more and incoming damage is higher such that 2 Paladins help provide better stability & more healing output; Play-style-wise the 3+2 is more like a re-actionary gaggle where, in harder content, any of the 3 Warriors needs to be ready to switch on the fly to Sword & Shield and Defensive stance and then back to offensive stance and weapons once incoming damage is better. While you don't have a 4th Warrior doing damage, you do now have 2 Paladins in melee range doing some DPS and smites which helps offset the 4th Warrior. Note also that a 4th Warrior locked in Tank spec/stance/gear/weapons doesn't do as much damage as the other warriors so the 3+2 doesn't really lose as much DPS compared to the 4+1 as one might think...

In PVP the 4+1's single Healer would be easier to CC and then wipe the party and even with the healer up it would be twice as easy to just burst through a single healer's output to burn down one or more Warriors with half as many counters (like Lay on Hands or Blessings of Protections);

In PVP the 3+2 gives both more output and more redundancy to the Healing/Cleansing making it to where the enemy really has to hard CC both Paladins at the same time (likely multiple times) to stop the party (see this post (https://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/55446-4-pallys-1-druid?p=419988&viewfull=1#post419988) for discussion/examples);

In the end it somewhat comes down to whether you care more about PVP or PVE...

The 4+1 is likely somewhat better for PVE.

The 3+2 is likely significantly better for PVP.