New computer for 20 box - need help

[blackbird]

Hey guys,

I've saved up a bit and got around 3500 to drop on a new machine. Looking to build something that can handle 20 boxing no problem, but I am very novice in hardware.

Is there anyone around that can help with some advice for this budget. What's the most important / must-haves?

How would you build your rig?

[Paradoxel]

Hey,

First off... wow!!! $3500 is going to make a monster.

i have a gtx 1070x and a Ryzen 1800x and 64 g of ram. I can do 15 account at 45% load on cpu and ram. My build was around 2kish? So you're more than equipped. I'm not a hardware guru but when I get home I'll edit this and provide a build I'd do.

[blackbird]

Awesome, thanks dude!

[Paradoxel]

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/9XJHcc --- This is the list I came up with. I'm not a computer person, but this is around your $3500 price point.

[blackbird]

Thanks dude!

[MiRai]

If you're going to stick with Intel, then...

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/4FFhf8

For the same price, you get two additional cores by moving to X299, and at the same time, a better PSU, a better cooler, and a slightly cheaper, albeit similar performing, GPU.

However, that cooler is dependent on: 1) your willingness to put liquid near electronics with power applied, and 2) whether or not it fits into that case (from Paradoxel's parts list). Personally, I don't know if you're comfortable with that, or if it even fits into that case (or even if you want that case). You can also look at 280mm variants, and other models from NZXT (Kraken), as well.

The motherboard can also be changed out with any other X299 motherboard. If you want more flashiness and maybe better on-board components, then spend a little more than what I've got listed there.


On the other hand, an AMD Threadripper build would net you an additional six cores (from my prior list):

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/Nmf4zM

I gave a bit more attention to that parts list—faster RAM, arguably sexier motherboard, faster m.2 drive, and a sexy case... all for the same price. Again, I'm not 100% certain a 280mm cooler will fit into the case I've selected. I see pictures of the case with AIO liquid coolers mounted at the top, but they might only be 240mm.

Then, if you want to go all out, get yourself an sexy cable set replacement for the PSU (https://cablemod.com/product-category/full-cable-kits/?filter_series=e-series&filter_models=g3-g2-p2-t2) (they even have AIO kits (https://cablemod.com/introducing-cablemod-aio-sleeving-kits/)), add in some cable combs (http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalogsearch/result/?brand=2157&q=cable+comb) (pick the right type), then maybe some cable clamps (http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=flat+nylon+cable+clamp) for ease of routing (you'll want several of all three sizes), and you're on your way to a very attractive build. That'll easily add a few hundred to the build just for aesthetics, but it's just money, right? :)


In the end, I have no idea what hardware it takes to successfully play 20 game clients at the same time, but BigCarl (on the ISBoxer Discord) runs a very similar setup, and he says he has no issues with 20 game clients on a 3440x1440 display.

[blackbird]

Wow, thanks MiRai, your input is much appreciated. The AMD alternative is very interesting indeed, I'll look into this as well!

[Apatheist]

EVGA - GeForce GTX 1080 Ti 11GB FTW3 GAMING iCX Video Card (https://pcpartpicker.com/product/KBtWGX/evga-geforce-gtx-1080-ti-11gb-ftw-gaming-icx-video-card-11g-p4-6696-kr)


I've been considering a similar upgrade for some time but I've been putting it off until AMD products stabilize.

Would a single 1080Ti have enough VRAM and grunt to handle 20+ clients? I was considering 2x 1080's. The price is similar and the extra 5GB of VRAM seems like it'd be more useful than the higher frequency on the Ti. Particularly on multi-monitor setups.

I guess it depends a lot on how well Innerspace handles load balancing on GPU's?

[mbox_bob]

Would a single 1080Ti have enough VRAM and grunt to handle 20+ clients? That depends on too many factors to really quantize.


I was considering 2x 1080's. The price is similar and the extra 5GB of VRAM seems like it'd be more useful than the higher frequency on the Ti. Particularly on multi-monitor setups.Highly possible, although when it comes to multiboxing and multimonitor configurations, there are always caveats. Some of these are going to be based on the game, others are goingto be based on settings, resolutions, and a few of the earlier too many factors to quantize.


I guess it depends a lot on how well Innerspace handles load balancing on GPU's?That all depends on how you configure it. Most of it is covered in these couple of pages:
http://isboxer.com/wiki/GPU_Management
http://isboxer.com/wiki/FAQ#Why_do_my_game_windows_not_resize_in_the_small er_viewers
http://isboxer.com/wiki/FAQ#WoW_was_unable_to_start_up_3d_acceleration (this one is a bit more game specific).

[62doug]

If you're going to stick with Intel, then...

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/4FFhf8

For the same price, you get two additional cores by moving to X299, and at the same time, a better PSU, a better cooler, and a slightly cheaper, albeit similar performing, GPU.

However, that cooler is dependent on: 1) your willingness to put liquid near electronics with power applied, and 2) whether or not it fits into that case (from Paradoxel's parts list). Personally, I don't know if you're comfortable with that, or if it even fits into that case (or even if you want that case). You can also look at 280mm variants, and other models from NZXT (Kraken), as well.

The motherboard can also be changed out with any other X299 motherboard. If you want more flashiness and maybe better on-board components, then spend a little more than what I've got listed there.


On the other hand, an AMD Threadripper build would net you an additional six cores (from my prior list):

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/Nmf4zM

I gave a bit more attention to that parts list—faster RAM, arguably sexier motherboard, faster m.2 drive, and a sexy case... all for the same price. Again, I'm not 100% certain a 280mm cooler will fit into the case I've selected. I see pictures of the case with AIO liquid coolers mounted at the top, but they might only be 240mm.

Then, if you want to go all out, get yourself an sexy cable set replacement for the PSU (https://cablemod.com/product-category/full-cable-kits/?filter_series=e-series&filter_models=g3-g2-p2-t2) (they even have AIO kits (https://cablemod.com/introducing-cablemod-aio-sleeving-kits/)), add in some cable combs (http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalogsearch/result/?brand=2157&q=cable+comb) (pick the right type), then maybe some cable clamps (http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=flat+nylon+cable+clamp) for ease of routing (you'll want several of all three sizes), and you're on your way to a very attractive build. That'll easily add a few hundred to the build just for aesthetics, but it's just money, right? :)


In the end, I have no idea what hardware it takes to successfully play 20 game clients at the same time, but BigCarl (on the ISBoxer Discord) runs a very similar setup, and he says he has no issues with 20 game clients on a 3440x1440 display.
Dam if only i could get the same at those prices as in here in Aus that would almost be double those prices

[CMKCot]

at those levels of boxing GPU doesn't really matter, you will run the slaves at min res anyway.


CPU is really important but up to a point, the real bottleneck is internal IO. having 2 m.2 NVME ssds and having two separate wow installations will help a lot with it.


imho, stay the hell away from skylake X.

seriously, just STAY away.

on paper it looks good, but in practice intel gives two craps about your core affinity, the CPU will do as it pleases. it will move all your wow processes to the "preferred core" and it will take you days to get some of that performance back.
1960

[MiRai]

CPU is really important but up to a point, the real bottleneck is internal IO. having 2 m.2 NVME ssds and having two separate wow installations will help a lot with it.
I'll be honest, there haven't been any "benchmarks" done on this, but, in theory, when running multiple installs you lose out on the benefit of disk caching (or so I'm told). If you're running from more than one drive, then you will be creating more work as 2+ drives are trying to be read from and written to at any given time, further clogging up the I/O pipeline.

In the past, there have been discussions, on this board (http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/53387-SATA-SSD-vs-NVMe-SSD), about SSD vs m.2 vs solid-state raid, and now that I've personally tried them all, I can say that my opinion on the matter hasn't changed one bit: I see no performance benefit, while multiboxing, when moving from a SATAIII SSD to either an m.2 drive (PCIe), or m.2 RAID 0 (PCIe).

I have said that I should re-visit this prior conclusion now that the game has changed, so perhaps there is a benefit when playing a lot of characters, but I would still assume that the penalty for running from multiple drives/folders grows as the number of characters being played does.



imho, stay the hell away from skylake X.

seriously, just STAY away.

on paper it looks good, but in practice intel gives two craps about your core affinity, the CPU will do as it pleases. it will move all your wow processes to the "preferred core" and it will take you days to get some of that performance back.
1960
The operating system controls CPU affinity, so if you've assigned all of your game clients to all of your cores, the OS is going to do what it wants—this is exactly why I set my own custom assignment in ISBoxer.

On top of that, both Broadwell-E and Skylake-X use Intel's Turbo Boost 3.0 technology, and as you say, this creates "preferred cores." From what I understand, if you have the Intel Turbo Boost Max Technology 3.0 software (https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/26103/Intel-Turbo-Boost-Max-Technology-3-0) installed, then you may see odd core assignment, as Intel states on their FAQ (https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000021587/processors.html): "The software user interface and driver allow users to prioritize programs by directing workloads to the fastest core first." So, if you don't want that behavior, and you have that program/driver installed, then I would remove it, but I wouldn't think that this program overrides the CPU affinity that is set, in the Task Manager, for any given executable.

Now, I will also add that you do want your active processes on the thread(s) that are boosting to the highest GHz so that you can get the most performance out of them. So, I'm not entirely sure if what you've shown in the Task Manager is such a bad thing, after all, unless you know that it's actually hurting your performance.

Personally, I uninstalled that program/driver, as was recommended to do so before overclocking, and have not seen any odd core assignment other than what I dictate, but, to be fair, I am also not on SL-X (but, again, the CPU itself does not control this).

On the other hand, my gripe with Intel, currently, is for the seemingly rushed launch of X299, the shady anti-AMD propaganda, and for the lack of solder under the IHS of SL-X.

[Mokoi]

so... what do I buy!!?

lol

I am also in the process of upgrading from my old 17 3770 to a newer setup for 20 boxing.

I have been considering the following:

Upgrade to a Ryzen 7 1700 3.4GHz CPU
GTX 1070 or 1080.. to go along with my 970 on my second monitor
stick with 32 Gigs of Ram... is 64 really necessary? I think it's DDR3 though.. will that work?

I will be keeping my 2 SSD and other drives, plus my PSU (its good) and my case....


Don't understand all the tech babble above me. Can someone tell me what to or not to do? LOL

[CMKCot]

the old turbo boost uses a driver to control affinity (the one you mention) and the new one that doesn't (im assuming its now done by the os). implementation depends on the motherboard, and i can only speak for Gigabyte, but after a few weeks of use windows removed the Turbo boost program on its own and wont let you install it again. (typical microsoft)

i simply Couldn't assign affinity to processes anymore. this is not bad for regular users, you definitely want those boosted cores to run your game, not such a good id ea when you have multiple copies of the same software running in parallel.

i found a way of using "Legacy" mode with Turbo boost 3.0 (on the BIOS, and after upgrading it.) that makes the skylake processor work like a Broadwell,only then will windows allow me to install the Turbo boost drivers and disable the function. at least now windows wont mess with my affinity anymore. still, given that windows made this change unannounced and given that you don't get to choose what your OS will do anymore there's no telling what they will do next.

i don't recommend the Skylake series of processors if your main use case is multiboxing. in my case i use it for work and its a beast. so im still happy.

as far as IO, on the new hardware (x299) i have seen a noticeable increase in performance now that im running from two SSDs instead of the old setup with the same two SSDs on raid 0. almost no stutter in Dalaran and loading the ship i don't even have alts get bugged and fall through the floor anymore. lol

[MiRai]

stick with 32 Gigs of Ram... is 64 really necessary?
If you can keep your game clients below 1.5GB of RAM, then no. If you cannot guarantee that, then 32GB probably won't be enough.


I think it's DDR3 though.. will that work?
Nope. Time to pay the exorbitant prices for DDR4. :)


Don't understand all the tech babble above me. Can someone tell me what to or not to do? LOL
There are three builds listed on the first page of this thread, and two of them are my recommendations. However, if you were 20-boxing on a 3770K, then I would imagine you'd be able to 20-box on a Ryzen 7 1700 seeing as it should, in theory, be twice as good.


-------------


the old turbo boost uses a driver to control affinity (the one you mention) and the new one that doesn't (im assuming its now done by the os). implementation depends on the motherboard, and i can only speak for Gigabyte, but after a few weeks of use windows removed the Turbo boost program on its own and wont let you install it again. (typical microsoft)
This sounds very odd. The software I linked to was last updated 6 weeks ago and it states that the 7000-series Skylake-X processors are supported. You're saying this is not the case?


i simply Couldn't assign affinity to processes anymore. this is not bad for regular users, you definitely want those boosted cores to run your game, not such a good id ea when you have multiple copies of the same software running in parallel.
Do you have a link to this issue? Unless my basic search terms are wrong, Google doesn't show a single result where someone using Skylake-X cannot set their CPU affinity. As people continue to upgrade and adopt Skylake-X, it will be useful to let people know more about it.


as far as IO, on the new hardware (x299) i have seen a noticeable increase in performance now that im running from two SSDs instead of the old setup with the same two SSDs on raid 0. almost no stutter in Dalaran and loading the ship i don't even have alts get bugged and fall through the floor anymore. lol
In Legion, the only thing I have to compare it to is my own experience. I moved from a Samsung 850 Pro SSD, with the typical speeds seen in every single review, to a PCIe m.2 RAID 0 setup which is ~10x faster (https://i.imgur.com/ATr0Zrr.png), and as far as I can tell, there isn't much of a difference—I had no stuttering issues before making the move, and I have no stuttering issues now.

Again, if you're running more characters, then I can't directly compare, but I am playing five characters at a ~4K resolution with my settings turned up, so I am producing a good amount of load on all of my hardware, which could be comparable to someone running more characters and lesser settings.

[Mokoi]

In case anyone is wondering, and wants to pick up some 20box hardware,m ill share my experience.

Bought a Ryzen 7 1700 64gigs of ram and a GTX 1080. Runs 20 without any lag, on lowest settings, and I can bump my 4 "mains": a bit (view distance largely) for quality of life. So far no issues, Dalaran is still a bit laggy, but once loaded and running around, no issues. I did several world quests without issue, only thing I noticed, is that Demon Hunters seem to be laggier than druids, because of the large number of visual effects on their abilities.

[Apatheist]

In case anyone is wondering, and wants to pick up some 20box hardware,m ill share my experience.

Bought a Ryzen 7 1700 64gigs of ram and a GTX 1080. Runs 20 without any lag, on lowest settings, and I can bump my 4 "mains": a bit (view distance largely) for quality of life. So far no issues, Dalaran is still a bit laggy, but once loaded and running around, no issues. I did several world quests without issue, only thing I noticed, is that Demon Hunters seem to be laggier than druids, because of the large number of visual effects on their abilities.

Any chance you could post some screenshots of your hardware load during average gameplay? I'm curious where the bottleneck would be on a system like that running 20+ clients.

[MiRai]

In case anyone is wondering, and wants to pick up some 20box hardware,m ill share my experience.

Bought a Ryzen 7 1700 64gigs of ram and a GTX 1080. Runs 20 without any lag, on lowest settings, and I can bump my 4 "mains": a bit (view distance largely) for quality of life. So far no issues, Dalaran is still a bit laggy, but once loaded and running around, no issues. I did several world quests without issue, only thing I noticed, is that Demon Hunters seem to be laggier than druids, because of the large number of visual effects on their abilities.
At what resolution? This is one of the most important details that everyone leaves out.

[Mokoi]

At what resolution? This is one of the most important details that everyone leaves out.

Sorry, good question. this is on a 4k monitor. each window is 2400x1600 or so, I think.

The bottleneck is still the CPU. video card is no issue, and with 64g of ram, i wont run out anytime soon.