Prot paladins - assume the position

[Fat Tire]

Our goal with tank design in Legion PvP has been for them to fill more of a "bruiser"-style role: tougher than a typical DPS, but not so much tougher that they're always the wrong target. Similarly, they should deal less overall damage than a pure DPS spec, but not so much less that you can ignore them.

That said, we've somewhat missed the mark in certain areas. Protection Paladins, for example, were able to put out a lot more healing than they probably should have. We've made a few adjustments already, and will continue to do so.


https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20752215393?page=5#post-89

I know this is talking about pvp however I dont think its just pvp fixes coming

[Ellay]

I hope it doesn't hurt too much :) getting mine leveled up now and was excited!

[Andreauk]

If people who love the x5 tank setup (especially Protection Paladins) are totally honest here, don't you think that it's crazy how much self healing tanks can currently do - and even to each other!?? So much so that an actual healer class would be detrimental to the setup?

I can't speak of pvp, but yes I think it's crazy how things are at the moment.

[Weepy]

If people who love the x5 tank setup (especially Protection Paladins) are totally honest here, don't you think that it's crazy how much self healing tanks can currently do - and even to each other!?? So much so that an actual healer class would be detrimental to the setup?

I can't speak of pvp, but yes I think it's crazy how things are at the moment.



i dont think its right that you can clear highlvl/mythics content with just 5 tanks. To me it feels that something is wrong when it actually works to just bring 5 tanks. But i have to admit that i was thinking about making a 5pallytank team myself lol =D

[Wubsie]

I've not done instanced PVP this expansion since there is no point, but from what I gather from that thread is that tank specs are not really in a great spot when PVP stat templates are active, but play as if being higher level than every non-tank in WPVP. The latter part I can concur with. Don't know if it's the same in PVP, but atleast in PVE Prot Pally healing does seem fairly silly. I'm boosting a 104 Paladin with 4x 110 Frost DKs and I really do not need a healer, since Hand of The Protector seems to be working much better than the tooltip would have you believe, essentially letting me get a full health reset on a toon every 10 seconds.

I do not like the approach they've taken for tanks in PVP overall. They're essentially trying to make tanks work like DPS specs, losing the point of being a tank in the first place. Their role in PVP, in my humble opinion, should be to act as FCs, capture point guards and overall annoy the hell out of the opposing team with utility talents while being able to push in fairly aggressively without really worrying about dying as much as a DPS. In arena I always thought they should similarly try to outlast the opposition by forcing them to play defensive, constant aggression due to not having to worry about damage as much.

This was also in the thread and I found it interesting:



Would you look into getting PVP templates working in world PVP?


This is something we could theoretically do, we just disagree that it's the correct choice for world PvP. Inherent imbalances are part of what makes world PvP fun. Speaking personally, some of my best memories of world PvP have come from getting a bunch of friends together to take down 1 or 2 enemy players that significantly outgear us, or getting my revenge on someone that ganked me earlier by catching them off-guard in the middle of a world quest.

There's obviously going to be some gray area there - there's a point where it stops being world PvP and instead just becomes griefing, and not everyone is going to agree on exactly where that point is. Generally speaking, however, unfairness - both taking advantage of it, as well as overcoming it - is part of the appeal of world PvP.

I agree that part of the fun of WPVP is that it is random in nature. You might face any number of enemies in any kind of gear and any kind of skill level. Mobs, toys and engineering items, guards, etcetc all add to the mix to create an endless number of possible scenarios you might find yourself in. However, those elements are created naturally by players playing the game. When all attempts at balancing PVP in this expansion rely on those stat templates, simply choosing to leave them out of the equation seems like a piss poor attempt to add an element of chaos, when the chaotic elements people actually enjoy (ie: NOT just the gear difference and some class being overtuned without a template deciding everything) would present themselves regardless. I honestly do not see the point of leaving the only controlling element out of the equation to create the mess that is Legion WPVP. I can honestly say that never before in my play time has damage been so far out of control.


i dont think its right that you can clear highlvl/mythics content with just 5 tanks. To me it feels that something is wrong when it actually works to just bring 5 tanks. But i have to admit that i was thinking about making a 5pallytank team myself lol =D
The problem really is not that it works. The problem is that it works better than bringing traditional setups. I was watching a dungeon event Blizzard held a few days ago. M+ 10 with a few extra additional mechanics to make it harder and without fail the team that ran 4x DPS 1x Tank was more effective in clearing the content. That to me means there is something fundamentally wrong.

[JohnGabriel]

If 5xtanks didn't work I would have leveled something else that did work. What I don't like is having to constantly change.

I've spent too much time on my 5xprot paly team and I don't want to switch to have to go through all that again. While it doesn't take to long to reach the 840 ilevel range, it slows down quite a bit from there and getting to 870 range takes a lot of work.

They should have fixed that back in alpha before the expansion released. If they change now I'm just going to take a break and find something else to play for awhile. I've been enjoying the end game but the getting there, no not so fun to me.

[Lyonheart]

The prot paly tier set bonuses will make our healing even better. So they will have to redo those as well.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

PVE-related thoughts below; if you're PVP-focused, you can skip this post.

General question: why exactly is it wrong to clear a dungeon with 5x tanks? Who is being materially injured, so badly that they need a safe space and emotional counseling because we did something people said we couldn't do?


If people who love the x5 tank setup (especially Protection Paladins) are totally honest here, don't you think that it's crazy how much self healing tanks can currently do - and even to each other!?? So much so that an actual healer class would be detrimental to the setup?

I can't speak of pvp, but yes I think it's crazy how things are at the moment.
If my 5x tanks have difficulty surviving (i.e. regularly losing one or two of them to WMD mechanics) on non-pure-melee bosses without a dedicated healer unless I significantly outgear the instance and/or use long-cooldown abilities, what detriment exactly is bringing a healer going to subject them to? Not sure if you've actually played with a healer, but I have with a friend and bringing him along completely trivialized Serpentrix which was driving me crazy trying to complete it as 5x paladins. That evidence would seem to contradict your assertion.


i dont think its right that you can clear highlvl/mythics content with just 5 tanks. To me it feels that something is wrong when it actually works to just bring 5 tanks. But i have to admit that i was thinking about making a 5pallytank team myself lol =D
Well, take that to its logical conclusion: if your assertion is that you shouldn't be able to do this with just 5 tanks, then you shouldn't be able to do it with 5x hunters, or 5x of any class, or any non-trinity team. See how this is a slippery slope? Where does it end? How much do people dislike being railroaded down a very narrow path that punishes you for deviating from the orthodoxy?

Ultimately, the question for me is, is the capability of 5-tank groups (paladins in particular) so completely egregiously broken that it breaks the game for everyone else and causes significant numbers of people to just give up in frustration? I have yet to see any evidence of that. Hell, I have yet to talk to ANYONE that plays a prot paladin that isn't happy with the character and enjoys logging in to play it, and will stay subscribed because it's fun to play.

And that is my ultimate question: if people are having fun playing the game as it is, why would you purposely make it less fun for some people because their playstyle offends your individual sense of universal equilibrium? Doesn't seem like a winner to me; sounds more like kow-towing to the tyranny of the squeaky wheel.

[JohnGabriel]

I think the reason for being noticed is not from running 5 tanks, its from people farming mythic+ with 1 tank 4 DPS. Several posts in the WoW forums about it.

This is only with the raiding guilds and their skilled and highly geared members. I don't think multiboxers will be able to run that set up.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

I think the reason for being noticed is not from running 5 tanks, its from people farming mythic+ with 1 tank 4 DPS. Several posts in the WoW forums about it.Fair point. That said, if you gear up your DPS enough, you can blow things up so fast that mechanics cease to be a major hindrance. I'm pretty sure you could almost run anything through 5-man mythics after gearing up in heroic/mythic raids.

[JohnGabriel]

If you don't stand in anything, you wont need a healer. If you make it so only the tank takes more damage, then you wont bring a disc priest. They'll need balance of some sort, which lets face it blizzard has not done a good job at lately.

I don't know, but maybe they just didn't expect everyone to outgear current content so quickly. Its normal to be able to just bring extra dps at the end of the expansions, just not a month in.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

I don't know, but maybe they just didn't expect everyone to outgear current content so quickly. Its normal to be able to just bring extra dps at the end of the expansions, just not a month in.

If Mythic + 2, 3, 4, etc. is just a scaling factor, then they could just expand it past 10. Though that won't solve the problem of people not having anything "new" to do.

[Andreauk]

PVE-related thoughts below; if you're PVP-focused, you can skip this post.

General question: why exactly is it wrong to clear a dungeon with 5x tanks? Who is being materially injured, so badly that they need a safe space and emotional counseling because we did something people said we couldn't do?


If my 5x tanks have difficulty surviving (i.e. regularly losing one or two of them to WMD mechanics) on non-pure-melee bosses without a dedicated healer unless I significantly outgear the instance and/or use long-cooldown abilities, what detriment exactly is bringing a healer going to subject them to? Not sure if you've actually played with a healer, but I have with a friend and bringing him along completely trivialized Serpentrix which was driving me crazy trying to complete it as 5x paladins. That evidence would seem to contradict your assertion.

And that is my ultimate question: if people are having fun playing the game as it is, why would you purposely make it less fun for some people because their playstyle offends your individual sense of universal equilibrium? Doesn't seem like a winner to me; sounds more like kow-towing to the tyranny of the squeaky wheel.

My point was not needing a healer at all is crazy.. using 5 of the same spec/class isn't what the game is designed for, and people shouldn't cry or be surprised when they nerf it to the ground. The game isn't balanced around/for boxers at all. Tanks healing each other for full hp is just plain stupid.. I wouldn't be surprised if they nerf or remove that at some point.
As for your healer friend that's no longer total boxing is it? That's having help from someone with a hell of a lot more control over the healer than you would have.

I don't have an issue with peoples class/team boxing choices.. I tried 5 prots myself (wasn't for me).. what I am saying is that if it wasn't for the cheesy mechanics of certain abilities (hand of the protector I'm looking at you) they wouldn't be half as viable, and Prot Pala boxers can't seriously be expecting them to buff/not nerf that cheesyness.

[Andreauk]

If Mythic + 2, 3, 4, etc. is just a scaling factor, then they could just expand it past 10. Though that won't solve the problem of people not having anything "new" to do.


That's why they are reworking the Mythic difficulties for 7.2

[davidmage]

5 Protection paladins is by no way an overpowered bunch of steamrollers which can crush anything and "cheeze" any mechanic due to the self heal. When working to the higher m+ and affixes one will have to utilize all abilities and heals perfectly to manage.

What I feel in the new legion encounters is that most AoE and encounter damage which affects the party can be avoided if you just do it right. Because of that healers now can't heal as much as in previous expansions. I guess the plan is that if dps stand in shit they die, and a healer can't compensate by being uberskilled and carrying the party, and I like this.

This has however led to that often a healer is not even needed, because it is possible to survive fine if you avoid stuff. And with 4 dps and a tank which also does dps, bosses just die fast. (which had proved to be a very good setup)

So it's not 5 paladins (or 5 tanks in general) which is unbalanced. Hell I'm overgearing mythics by now, but that doesnt mean I can stand in Serpentrix shit and just heal through it.

My 5 hunters for example have killed some mythic+ bosses around 30 seconds, not even giving time for mechanics to kick in. And with some fine legendaries, hunter can heal for 70% of total health with every FD, + other cools. I bet many classes have nice stuff, I can't have been extremely lucky choosing the 2 most OP classes/specs in legion. And I know for a fact that many classes dps the shit out of BM hunter.

So it's no surprise to see the 4dps 1 tank groups performing well, because probably any class can crush it and have their own way of surviving without needing a healer. Enough skill and gear, most classes will kill the boss before dying from encounter AoE, regardless if you are prot-pala-dps-tank or not.


Fair point. That said, if you gear up your DPS enough, you can blow things up so fast that mechanics cease to be a major hindrance. I'm pretty sure you could almost run anything through 5-man mythics after gearing up in heroic/mythic raids.

[Andreauk]

You've even said yourself x5 tank setup is by far the easiest. Yeah a Hunter can self heal, but they can also super fast rez their pets over and over, and the pet takes the majority of the damage! Not to mention Misdirection..

I'm talking about boxing.. you're bringing group talk into this that involves 5 actual players - they have much more coordination, and can avoid things far easier, and need far less healing.. and you are playing the best 2 setups for boxing this expac... you must know this?

What dps x4 with a tank (they control also), can clear any content equal or higher (as a boxer) than tanks have on this forum? I wont count Hunters as they come with 5 tanky pets with no rez cost.. unlike poor locks who have no MD and it costs a soul shard to rez a pet.. and it's a longer cast time..

It's not just about dps, it's about how much survival you have to manage boxing anything, and for prots I do feel it needs a nerf.

Now without hand of the protector and flash heal being usable on anyone but yourself, how far could you progress?

[davidmage]

Yes I'm aware of that the teams I went with work wery well for multiboxing.
The reason I bring up talk about regular non boxing groups is because this game is not designed for multiboxers. So if blizzard should perform any kind of balancing, it should be done with consideration to what the regular players are doing.
So for example if we start seeing a lot of regular prot paladins who team up and perform much better than any other setups, that is a valid reason for a change.
However if a lot of boxers get the idea to run 5 prots, and it turns out to work well. Also for our boxing reasons a group of 5 paladins is one of the easier setups to manage and optimize as a boxer. So for multiboxers, prot palas may be an OP choice if you want the highest reward for the least effort.
With the m+ system this is fine anyway in my opinion, since you can find the proper challenge for your team in the level you choose to play.
But the "boxability" of a specific class or setup is none of blizzards consideration. If we start hearing about 5 tanks totally outperforming any other setups in the m+ race with regular players, then a change is motivated.
Or blizzard may choose to change a tanks role in a party, which may wreck our 5 tank teams totally. But it may be fine from a single players perspective, and then boxers have no say in it.

So whats really wrong at the moment is that both tanks and dps have come to the level of not needing a healer. (Non boxing hardcoreish perspective)
Since healers currently are so weak and not really needed, boxers who have used them in their teams take on a whole other challenge to actually make use of the nerfed healer role.
So many tanks and dps in general has lost the need for a healer (either due to tank self sustaining, or enough sustain of a dps + massive dps)
In our multiboxing world this inbalance has shown in the form of 5 prot palas, or dks. But I am sure that other strong teams are possible (with some more effort), but these worked nice and easy and therefore became popular.
If they made the heal only for yourself I would have to taunt and trade boss aggro. It would be uncomfortable but it is technically possible.

[Andreauk]

So far it's only boxers that know the power of 5 Prots, or a prot with x4 blood.. I'm sure the idea could catch on, but I'm betting solo players haven't even considered running as 5 tanks.

It wouldn't be so bad if all tanks could do this.. how long would say x5 Prot Warriors do boxed in Mythic 9.. or even lower?

[JohnGabriel]

5x prot pali has a limit in mythic+ because of their low dps. Yes it seems they can heal through anything but they cant ever beat the timer on high mythic.

For that reason I don't think it will ever catch on with the solo players, Its the 1xProt and 4xDPS that the nerf would be aimed at.

I also think this is blown way out of proportion. Only the highly skilled highly geared players are doing it, and those guys could run 5x disc priest through mythic+ if they wanted.

[daanji]

So far it's only boxers that know the power of 5 Prots, or a prot with x4 blood.

Normal players don't care, you'd never get 5-single players to run a 5x tank setup cause it is a waste of time. A standard trinity group is more efficient and less stress, while skilled and geared players are going to run 1x tank and 4x DPS.

We do it because we like to multi-box and tanks work well for that. It is not efficient or even advantageous in the least.
Blizzard is making changes as a result of perceived imbalance in the normal game play. If that is detrimental to boxers it is just collateral damage and is no part a direct action against boxers.

[Andreauk]

I never said it was direct action against boxers - I said boxers shouldn't be surprised when something that's way too overpowered gets nerfed..

[Andreauk]

snip
I also think this is blown way out of proportion. Only the highly skilled highly geared players are doing it, and those guys could run 5x disc priest through mythic+ if they wanted.

This I would love ​to see

[valkry]

If people who love the x5 tank setup (especially Protection Paladins) are totally honest here, don't you think that it's crazy how much self healing tanks can currently do - and even to each other!?? So much so that an actual healer class would be detrimental to the setup?

I can't speak of pvp, but yes I think it's crazy how things are at the moment.
You make a good point and yea it is a little ridiculous. But also consider that the whole mythic plus scene scales up fairly evenly. With that, my solo tank doesn't really need a healer until mythic 3-4 and can keep himself alive. The point im trying to make is that he actually needs healing at all. In past xpacs, I could run heroics and multi-pack pull without really taking so much as a dent, in equivalent gear. So although we can self heal, the fact that we have to at all is the equaliser, imo.

I'm not sure yet which I prefer, being able to self heal the dmg taken, or take less dmg.

This is of course talking about the lower end of the mythics which I consider equivalent of heroics of certain past xpacs. I mean, I take more dmg in the timewalking heroics than in mythic 4, easily.


I think the reason for being noticed is not from running 5 tanks, its from people farming mythic+ with 1 tank 4 DPS. Several posts in the WoW forums about it.

This is only with the raiding guilds and their skilled and highly geared members. I don't think multiboxers will be able to run that set up.
I do http://www.dual-boxing.com//images/smilies/frown.png

[valkry]

Delete