Boxing the meta 4 man

[Perrigrin]

I am looking at planning the 4 man meta boxing, but looking at how it plays I'm not sure how well it would box.

I am talking about Twister mage, globe barb, globe monk, cc buff WD.

Concerns are:

- Can enough globes be picked up without one or 2 toons moving independently from each other / the group?

- Positioning, wiz wants to ideally stand positioned so that he casts the twists towards walls etc

- Wiz survivability, again comes back to positioning, when playing the twister wiz in 4 man I move a LOT to both to get twisters max dps, but also to live

Any thoughts? Anyone doing it?

[Cmoidudu]

Since I have been disapointed with Crusaders/Thorns, I'll slowly migrate to this setup and give it a try.

- I have been playing with a zDPS WD as character #4 for quite some time now, so no problem this one, he is pretty much straightforward.

- I'm testing the Monk as character #3. He has one flaw, his survivabilty comes from his skills, so he can die while moving between packs: -40/-50% from casting Cyclone strike while wearing some shoulders, -30/-40% from resource generators with some bracers, -50% from Sweeping Wind with 2p Sunwoko... I tried to have him use a Solanium for spawning globes but it's not worth it. Globes will come from the Barbarian. Also I would not use Epiphany because of the desyncs. But he can use an Aquila Cuirass since he doesn't use resource.

- I haven't started the Barbarian, but I understood how it runs. Continuously using Hammer of the ancient shouldn't be a problem with resource regeneration, but since I haven't tried it, I can't tell.

- I need to investigate about Wizard survivability and Mana generation at high GRs. I understood the trick while watching Gabynator's Twitch channel, it should work as a Multiboxer, but I haven't tried it either, so, more about this later.

Obviously you can't use Teleport / Spirit Walk etc because of desyncs. So Illusory Boots are mandatory either on characters, or in Cube.

[Perrigrin]

Let me know how it works out for you - I'll be dabbling in it as well, but currently my regular group is very active so don't get to box much.

I would be very curious to hear how you work out positioning and globe pick up.

Also, FYI - having the monk with solanium and globe build helped my regular group a lot vs just a globe barb - specially before all have perfect gear.

[Devile]

The only problem I see is the Wizard's mobility. The 3 supports can have Illusory boots. If u add Illusory boots to the wizard, u lose APD which will pretty much kill your DPS at 85+. GLobes pickup? Thing of the deep on the WD maybe? I wouldnt care much about it tbh, just stack some pickup radius.

My main concern is being able to move my party freely. The other choice is adding a Crusader with Wings of Angels, but it won't add much dps or survivability. Maybe ditch the Monk for a Crusader? Dont think Shield Glare, Judgement and Provoke will make it for all the stuff a monk provides.

[Shodokan]

The meta for hardcore currently seems to be 2x lon bomb crusaders + Barb + X for around 85s from what I watched. The wizard was running a disintegrate converge + ranslors + etched sigil build with DMO as the 4th from what I saw.

I think the main problem is going to be positioning on your wizard while positioning everything else away a bit without a very micro oriented playstyle. On top of that your positioning matters most on wizard since the orientation of the movment of your twisters is based on your mouse cursor's position so you would need to lead from the wizard. Thing of the deep should cover the radius though as stated above.

With perfect gear you can get very close to the damage of a DMO wizard with a LoN shield throw build, but thats not something that will be readily avail and will be a grind to get going, that would give you the ability to run two DPS if you really wanted.

[Cmoidudu]

About globe gathering, you just have to move the team one step forward, or backwards, or whatever, and the WD will pick all the globes. Thing of the Deep gives him 20' pickup, plus what he might have on the rest of the gear. This works, I tested it. Of course once again you need Illusory Boots...

About farming at high GR levels, let's face it, I doubt that any of us will farm GR85+ so let's stay humble, but I'd like to be wrong :cool:

About globe generating from a Monk, I might reconsider what I said earlier since I looked at Quin69's video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM8DMTkqc88), but I tested it and I wasn't too impressed. I miss some key elements however, like that Flying Dragon in the cube, so I might want to give him another try. But out of this, the constant gathering of creatures with Cyclone Strike, or Inner Sanctuay/Forbidden Palace makes him a good addition to the team.

[Devile]

85+? I think it's completely doable. Remember they lowered HP on mobs and basically 2.4 GR80 = 2.3 GR70~. Add augmenting stats on gear which pretty much equals hundreds of paragon per piece. Try it solo with any of your old chars and u will see. My barbs/dhs can speedrun around 10GRs more than what they used to. My mixed SC party was doing 70+ back in 2.3 and ET Wizards are way more powerful than what SC monk was. Pretty sure we will be doing 85+ in no time.

I'm gonna start playing solo my Wizard to boost it to Paragon 1200+ and work on 90+ gems with all augmented gear. Once I get that, the supports wont really matter how high their paragon is. Trust me, 85+ won't be a problem.

[Ellay]

Biggest issue with going current meta is the game freeze/timeouts. There is just too much stuff happening it seems. Even when your just 1 of the 4 I see Twitch streams where the game lags out and takes time to come back. There have been multiple builds in the past I would have loved to use but just didn't work out due to outside limitations.

[Cmoidudu]

OK I have tried to run this thing with a Crusader/Thorns as DPS, and then the 3 buffing dudes. Of course I don't have resource regeneration problems, but I can monitor how things works (globe generation, survivability). As for now...

- Witch Doctor works fine,
- Monk works fine,
- Barbarian is a problem.

I miss some key elements in the Barbarian setup: Fury of the Ancients (shoulders), Pride of Cassius (belt) and Bracers of the First Men (bracers)... But right now the biggest issue is that Wrath of the Berserker gives +20% movement speed to the Barbarian, so either he is running forward, or, if I spend Paragon points so that he has +5% speed, he'll stay behind when he is out of Wrath of the Berserker...

At the moment I can't maintain Wrath of the Berseker up all the time, and I don't have the required belt to keep Ignore Pain up all the time either, so the poor Barbarian is dying all the time (other dudes are ok). Because of this I'm running GR50's, just waiting for gear to drop, which is not the purpose of this team. To have this team work, you really need to have high creature density, and packs that don't die instantly (so, high GRs), otherwise you can't "keep the machine running".

More later, but I'm quite busy IRL at the moment :)

I also want to try something with Ground Stomp / Jarring Slam with Band of Might (ring), assuming I already have an Obsidian Ring of the Zodiac as second ring...

[Cmoidudu]

OK, so I have been running this team on low GR60's and it's quite tricky. It works tho. Some issues that I need to fix...

The Wizard is very vulnerable, specially when he moves. Damage Reduction from the Orb of the Infinite Depth expires very fast... I'll have him cube an Aquila Cuirass maybe. Also he doesn't have an ancient Twister Sword, so DPS is not so good.

It's very tricky to manipulate this team. I have been looking at the SOS team on Twitch, and that Wizard dude exactly know where to target so that the twisters are stuck. I have yet to succeed in doing so. Also, when I have a correct position, sometimes the Monk moves the target away with Cyclone Strike.

I'm not using Wrath of the Berserker with the Barbarian because of synch problems. I'm using this build :
http://www.d3planner.com/417169218

You can't have enough pickup radius on the WD. Of course he's holding a Thing of the Deep, but still, I'll see if I can find some decent gear with additional pickup radius :)

I'm not using Illusory Boots at the moment. I'm trying to figure out if I really need them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odwUQSgElSU

[Devile]

There are quite a few things u are missing from what I saw in that video:


U are using F&R and no generator which means u are missing a ton of DPS. Get the Endless Walk set + CoE and u should do much more damage, and also help with survivability while moving around.
No perma ignore pain. This is a big one. U should have it 100% of the time, specially while moving around when positioning to the next pack. Not just because of the DR but immunity.
Autocast your EB. U forget to cast it and keep losing the buff. Use the numlock trick or whatever works for u so its always being casted. Same goes for other buffs/debuffs from your party that can be casted while moving (blinding flash, warcry, ignore pain, etc.). Looks like u cast them just before engaging and that's a big NONO. That's why u got 1 shot by that Lacuni.
Diamond Skin seems kinda useless there. Maybe go with Frost Nova for additional 33% debuff or Familiar for more damage.

AND, the biggest issue of all: POSITIONING. This meta is all about positioning. Your twisters were always going all over the map instead of going in a corner and stacking the damage. Just play solo in any map and test by yourself. Its fairly easy to aim and get them to not move much. U also need to move around, pull a ton of mobs and only then start killing them. Illusory boots or Wings of Angels might be a "must have" to make this work.

If u dont pull a ton of mobs and stack your twisters in that same spot, the spec wont work.

[Cmoidudu]

I can't agree more than that on what you said. I'm still missing some key elements on the build. I just got a Solanium (at last!) on my Monk, he wasn't using one on the video... For the rest...




U are using F&R and no generator which means u are missing a ton of DPS. Get the Endless Walk set + CoE and u should do much more damage, and also help with survivability while moving around.



Yep. It's just that I don't have a decent set so I'm instead getting +20% Arcane from my necklace and 50% damage from F+R, with good crit chance and damage on the items. But it's also true true that a very bad Endless Walk will still give me 100% damage, which is more than 50+20. I'll fix that soon.





No perma ignore pain. This is a big one. U should have it 100% of the time, specially while moving around when positioning to the next pack. Not just because of the DR but immunity.



That too I already improved. My Barbarian got some gear upgrades.





Autocast your EB. U forget to cast it and keep losing the buff. Use the numlock trick or whatever works for u so its always being casted. Same goes for other buffs/debuffs from your party that can be casted while moving (blinding flash, warcry, ignore pain, etc.). Looks like u cast them just before engaging and that's a big NONO. That's why u got 1 shot by that Lacuni.



Well that one is tricky. You have to hit in order to trigger the damage buff + damage reduction, not just cast, so if you can't hit anything during 6 seconds, the stacks are gone. But still, you are right, when I move for a "long" time I start fighting with zero stack, which is not good.





Diamond Skin seems kinda useless there. Maybe go with Frost Nova for additional 33% debuff or Familiar for more damage.



Since I don't use Teleport for obvious desync reasons, I have some kind of "free slot", so I tried Diamond Skin with the Arcane Power reduction affix. Not so useful however. I'm trying different things at the moment.



AND, the biggest issue of all: POSITIONING(...)Absolutely. But this is hard to both have your team gathered, and place the creatures between you and a wall. Plus, the Monk will move the target. Maybe I'll need to get rid of Cyclone Strike... Which would be a huge DPS loss since the Monk also uses Strongarm Bracers. But I'm still very far from what the SoS Team is doing. The Wizard is targeting an angle of a wall (not a corner) and the Twisters seem to be stuck there. Amazing.

[edit] Also that SoS Wizard dude is not using the Paragon points for "Life on hit", if anybody has a clue about that...

[Devile]

[edit] Also that SoS Wizard dude is not using the Paragon points for "Life on hit", if anybody has a clue about that...

I had all Ancient DMO gear from S3 (or 2?) and guess what? Forgot to claim my mail so I'm working on gearing my Wizard to try this combo. Everything else I already have it. I may ditch the Monk for a Crusader just to get Wings of Angels, but with the current lag I have, I may forget the whole thing til my lag issues are fixed (if ever).

LoH? Maybe it breaks the game. Such high attack speed + Pain Enhancer bleed + Area Damage + LoH = game freezes. Too many server calculations and it should lag like hell.

[Cmoidudu]

I have no problem with lag, it happened only once as I was pushing GR levels... A nice 15-20 second super-lag-freeze as you can see on Twitch. And I completed GR68 a couple of hours ago (still no ancient Twisted Sword).

My Wizard now casts Black Hole / Event Horizon instead of Diamond Skin or Frost Nova. Oldies but goodies. Also I'm using a random ancient wand and the Twisted Sword in the cube. That's a huge DPS loss on elite and bosses (no Furnace in the cube). And yes, I have a Traveler's Pledge with Dex on my Wizard ;)

I'm chaining empowered GR63's for Paragon farming and gem leveling to 50, and then I use them for +250 stat on gear. I still need to practice that "glue-the-twisters-on-decor" thing. Sometimes I can make it work, very efficient. But most of the time the Twisters decide to live on their own :(

Anyway trash mobs are easy, then everything depends on the boss and how you place it. Teleporting bosses are a pain, specially Perendi...

My toons are here...

Wizard : http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/cmoidudu-2696/hero/31711726
Barbarian : http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Loup-2764/hero/54153108
Monk : http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Fango-2485/hero/42339329
Witch Doctor : http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Erha-2932/hero/48211560

[edit] I just figured that 4x Gem of Efficacious Toxin is silly since there is only one DPS. So i'll have the buffers wear those gems for +30% damage on the Wizard, but the Wizard will use Bane of the Stricken. With all the ticks from the Twisters, this should skyrocket DPS... I'm not too sure about Pain Enhancer however.

Also, I finally understood that "immobile Twister" thing. The Wizard has to stick his nose into an angle and then spam... The problem is that in the meantime, the Monk and the Babarian are hitting... Nothing (it doesn't matter for the Witch Doctor). I'll try to work around this.

[Devile]

Talking about luck ... been farming since 8am T10 to gear my main Wizard for this combo and no luck with Ancient Twisted swords. Got like 6 already, all non ancient. U posted this and 30 mins later, I get this:

http://i.imgur.com/VOFEIlO.jpg

Prolly lowest base damage ever, but still the stats are nice. Can't complain.

As for the problem of hitting nothing, try skills that hit 360 or have more AoE. Won't be easy, thats for sure.

[Cmoidudu]

Talking about luck (...)
Now I hate you.

And, using Ranslor's Folly bracers might help... We'll see.

[Cmoidudu]

OK, so I changed a lot of things (again) in the setup. For a first I got rid of all pets, since they are blocking monsters and you don't want that. On the contrary, I picked more skills to gather monsters.

This team as a major and a minor flaw.

The major flaw is still the same, you can't hit a wall with the Wizard and hope to stack Twisters, when in the meantime the rest of the team isn't hitting the monsters, so you are getting no globe, so no power, so no Twisters... so you need to face monsters for a while and them face the wall to stask Twisters, etc.

The minor flaw is, I'm using Leap + Call of Arreat on the Barbarian, and if I don't pay attention, dude can leap away and get separated form his buddies.

Here is a GR70 video, and I certainly can push further... as a reminder, I still don't have an ancient Twisted Sword yet...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMl1Q4U2s8U

Also, this is how I arrange all skills. I'm only using straight key forwarding in IsBoxer, no round-robin etc.

1612

[Ughmahedhurtz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMl1Q4U2s8U

I thought your healthbars were bugged until the RG fight. :p

[Shodokan]

OK, so I changed a lot of things (again) in the setup. For a first I got rid of all pets, since they are blocking monsters and you don't want that. On the contrary, I picked more skills to gather monsters.

This team as a major and a minor flaw.

The major flaw is still the same, you can't hit a wall with the Wizard and hope to stack Twisters, when in the meantime the rest of the team isn't hitting the monsters, so you are getting no globe, so no power, so no Twisters... so you need to face monsters for a while and them face the wall to stask Twisters, etc.

The minor flaw is, I'm using Leap + Call of Arreat on the Barbarian, and if I don't pay attention, dude can leap away and get separated form his buddies.

Here is a GR70 video, and I certainly can push further... as a reminder, I still don't have an ancient Twisted Sword yet...

Also, this is how I arrange all skills. I'm only using straight key forwarding in IsBoxer, no round-robin etc.

1612

Well its good to know it is possible to multi-box all the supports even if its slightly inefficient in comparison to the normal ability for the barb to also pull/group.

Your major flaw though doesn't seem like something you can get around. That being said you might be better off with 3x DMO twister/channel wizards and a barb support or two and two supports. The single DMO wizard setup although piloted by botters is doing extremely well in solo play, the major problem with it though is that teleport is used almost exclusively for positioning which is another thing that is done at the very high end of the spectrum to avoid as many hits as possible. Because of that limiting factor as well I'm not sure that this setup is ideal in comparison to something like 2x LoN bomb + 2x support simply because you cannot even come close to optimizing your damage.

That being said I do think that if you want to continue playing the meta setup then you should think about swapping your setup to have your wizard using a build similar to the solo pushing builds in order to get more success. No matter how you swing it you aren't going to be able to position properly and consistently be able to deal maximum damage without your supports actually being able to generate globes.

[Cmoidudu]

Another quantum leap and I completed GR75. Since I still don't have an ancient Twister Sword, low 80's should be possible as soon as I'll get one... At GR76 I obviously lack the DPS on elite packs (Twister Sword in cube so no Furnace there). They take too long to kill (and I still have a huge margin of improvement on positioning).

Also I changed Barbarian's "right-click" skill from Leap to Avalanche + Snow-Capped Mountain. Works better. Now I need to find 2 good "Pull of the Earth" set pieces to reduce its cooldown (and ground Stomp too).


(...) to have your wizard using a build similar to the solo pushing builds (...)
I'll consider that...


I thought your healthbars were bugged until the RG fight. :p
Well as long as the 4 dudes are stacked, toughness skyrockets. I'm somewhat bleeding at GR76 however :p

[Ellay]

Enjoying this progress!

[Cmoidudu]

(...) swapping your setup to have your wizard using a build similar to the solo pushing builds in order to get more success(...)
There seems to be a trick that top solo Wizards are using, I need to try this. They use Etched Sigil off-hand, and they sort of pop Energy Twisters when casting Arcane Torrent. I don't really see the point, maybe there is an exploit there...

And, GR76 down. Still no ancient Twisted Sword :(

[Shodokan]

There seems to be a trick that top solo Wizards are using, I need to try this. They use Etched Sigil off-hand, and they sort of pop Energy Twisters when casting Arcane Torrent. I don't really see the point, maybe there is an exploit there...

And, GR76 down. Still no ancient Twisted Sword :(

The only difference is that the main twisters while channeling do not proc area damage and that the merged ones do indeed. Its not an exploit.

[Cmoidudu]

Here is a quick video or GR77... Quick because one box crashed @08:36, which is sad because I had a very good map on floor 2 and I could have done it.

I did so-so at floor#1 because it's hard to find place to "lock" Twisters on this map (or I don't know how to), except @02:10... Anyway, the trick is, you can't face the wall 100% of the time, you have to face the monsters for a couple of seconds every so often (so that the Monk and the Barbarian can reduce cooldowns and refresh offensive/defensive skills), and then kiss the wall again.

Still no ancient Twisted Sword, however I got an ancient Gesture of Orpheus, and rolled +20% Arcane on it, with Twisted Sword in cube that's better than nothing.

Another trick is that you don't have to focus elites, make a big pack of whites (with or without elites), kill most of them, and then move to next pack. Most of the time elites will follow and you can finish them with next pack. But really don't try to kill a single remaining yellow, it's a waste of time because you can't generate a lot of globes, so not a lot of Twisters, etc.

Also, you can't run far with this setup, because as soon as Ignore Pain fades, the Wizard or the Monk will be one-shot by any ranged. So as you move, find some whites to punch (even if you don't kill them), so that the Barbarian can reset his cooldowns, and refesh Ignore pain...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnfOF7FNaVo

[Cmoidudu]

I'd like to change the main DPS into something else (since I'll probably never get that ancient Twister Sword anyway). He needs to be a a melee DPS, preferably with aoe damage. Also he needs to use a one-click-spam skill, because using 2 skills (like the Wizard / Arcane Orb template) will not fit well in the team. And I'd like to avoid using pets because it slows creature packing for aoe DPS.

I was thinking of a WD / Firebats template... We don't see a lot of them around, but I believe it's because they are very weak. Of course with the amount of defensive skills generated by the team, it will be another matter, also he can benefit from the globe generation because of the "Gruesome Feast" passive which will permanently increase his DPS by a lot.

I'm thinking of this template, he should be able to spam Firebats with a lot of damage enhancements, including 75-100% increase from Ring of Emptiness, and Haunt + Locust Swarm + Soul Harvest used as spirit generators. Mana regeneration should be superior to mana consumption, even without Reaper's Wrap bracers, and even with "Pierce the Veil" passive.

http://www.d3planner.com/155188589

Also using a Razor Stop belt should be nice but I don't know how the damage from the explosions will be increased.

Any idea about his, or other templates ?

[Devile]

Don't think that's gonna work. HT doesn't affect LS or Haunt, so no multiplier there. Might as well ditch the skills cause they won't add much. If u go with HT, u need Garg or Dog. Garg does more damage with the Short Man Finger. If u go with LS/Haunt u either go with Arachyr, Jade or LoN and u need Quetzacoatl + Creeping Death. But those won't scale very well. HT Firebat works but only paired with pets. Also, not sure if u will get enough sustain from globes alone. U may need BBV Rain Dance tho with a 2H weapon u may not need BBV.

Currently the Highest DPS for WD is LoN Garg. That's what I'm aiming for, but 3 DPS + 1 support. Was watching FreeMartin doing speed 70s with 3x WDs while boosting 1 guy. Yeah, I know LoN x3 will take a while, but there's not much to do anyway so I'm farming T10 all day long :P Razor Strop sucks :/

I'm going for this:

http://www.d3planner.com/314633798

PS: HT Garg + Dog is ridiculously STRONG. I'm doing T10 bounties with just 1 char, leaving the other 3 in town and I one shot elites with a shitty Manajuma non ancient combo. 1.4m dps only with trash gear I had from S4. Fastest way to do bounties I've found so far.

[Ellay]

with that many fetishes out, doesn't it interfere with the dogs and gargs from doing damage?

[Shodokan]

Don't think that's gonna work. HT doesn't affect LS or Haunt, so no multiplier there. Might as well ditch the skills cause they won't add much. If u go with HT, u need Garg or Dog. Garg does more damage with the Short Man Finger. If u go with LS/Haunt u either go with Arachyr, Jade or LoN and u need Quetzacoatl + Creeping Death. But those won't scale very well. HT Firebat works but only paired with pets. Also, not sure if u will get enough sustain from globes alone. U may need BBV Rain Dance tho with a 2H weapon u may not need BBV.

Currently the Highest DPS for WD is LoN Garg. That's what I'm aiming for, but 3 DPS + 1 support. Was watching FreeMartin doing speed 70s with 3x WDs while boosting 1 guy. Yeah, I know LoN x3 will take a while, but there's not much to do anyway so I'm farming T10 all day long :P Razor Strop sucks :/

I'm going for this:

http://www.d3planner.com/314633798

PS: HT Garg + Dog is ridiculously STRONG. I'm doing T10 bounties with just 1 char, leaving the other 3 in town and I one shot elites with a shitty Manajuma non ancient combo. 1.4m dps only with trash gear I had from S4. Fastest way to do bounties I've found so far.

How long are the bounties taking you though total? Because clearing trash doesn't seem that efficient with helltooth + pets.

[Cmoidudu]

Don't think that's gonna work. HT doesn't affect LS or Haunt, so no multiplier there. Might as well ditch the skills cause they won't add much (...)
I'm using LS+Haunt in this template because of the Ring of Emptiness, not because of Helltooth. What I don't know however is, can I use Haunt on a creature that is already "Haunted" by my zDPS WD...


Was watching FreeMartin doing speed 70s
I did too. Honestly, the guy dies all the time. But still, he completes GR72-73's just like I do, maybe a little faster.


LoN x3 will take a while, but there's not much to do anyway so I'm farming T10 all day long
Of course it will. I'm not doing this.


Razor Strop sucks :/
I guessed so :(


HT Garg + Dog is ridiculously STRONG.
Yes I noticed that too, but it doesn't fit well in my current setup. Also, at high GRs, let's say high 70's to low 80's, you can't run a team that doesn't have several damage reduction sources. And, as the saying goes "a good DPS is a DPS that stays alive"...

[Devile]

How long are the bounties taking you though total? Because clearing trash doesn't seem that efficient with helltooth + pets.

I average 1-2min per bounty, 5-9 mins per full Act.. 30-40mins all 5 Acts. Timed 1 and did it in 36 mins. Since most of the time u are running around and not killing stuff, u gain a lot more time running as a chicken. DH is a lot faster killing stuff but u need to get to the bounty first and even spamming Vault, the chicken is way faster. U just run extremely fast, break shit while running (procs warzechian), going thru everything, even thru some doors.

And since there are more bounties where u need to look for something that is deep in the map, I take longer with my DH. Where WD is way slower is with those red portal bounties. Dog and Garg AI are retarded and they don't attack what u want. Besides that, even those bounties that require killing 150 mobs go down fast. As long as u have your dog hitting packs grouped with Piranhado and resetting your Hex cooldown to run to the next pack, there's no real issue.

Also, I dont waste time joining chars to the game to collect the bags which is annoying. With WD I just leave all 3 in town and a single WD can carry the whole party solo. I can't do that with UE DH. Ok, I can, but will be a LOT slower.

[Shodokan]

I average 1-2min per bounty, 5-9 mins per full Act.. 30-40mins all 5 Acts. Timed 1 and did it in 36 mins. Since most of the time u are running around and not killing stuff, u gain a lot more time running as a chicken. DH is a lot faster killing stuff but u need to get to the bounty first and even spamming Vault, the chicken is way faster. U just run extremely fast, break shit while running (procs warzechian), going thru everything, even thru some doors.

And since there are more bounties where u need to look for something that is deep in the map, I take longer with my DH. Where WD is way slower is with those red portal bounties. Dog and Garg AI are retarded and they don't attack what u want. Besides that, even those bounties that require killing 150 mobs go down fast. As long as u have your dog hitting packs grouped with Piranhado and resetting your Hex cooldown to run to the next pack, there's no real issue.

Also, I dont waste time joining chars to the game to collect the bags which is annoying. With WD I just leave all 3 in town and a single WD can carry the whole party solo. I can't do that with UE DH. Ok, I can, but will be a LOT slower.

Why would you join for each individual bounty bag? You can do the entire game minus one single bounty in a3, then bring everyone in and turn in the acts until you get to a3 and then complete that one in a3 and continue turning in. The 1p health will make it even faster no matter what class you do it with. Also doing it on t7/8 with LoN crusader or danettas DH or anything really can yield more mats per hour long term.

@Cmo you should do bounties to re-roll your twister sword. Much easier to do that then to just rift until you get it ancient as a drop.

[Devile]

Why would you join for each individual bounty bag? You can do the entire game minus one single bounty in a3, then bring everyone in and turn in the acts until you get to a3 and then complete that one in a3 and continue turning in. The 1p health will make it even faster no matter what class you do it with. Also doing it on t7/8 with LoN crusader or danettas DH or anything really can yield more mats per hour long term.

@Cmo you should do bounties to re-roll your twister sword. Much easier to do that then to just rift until you get it ancient as a drop.

Mainly blue/green goblins for mats. If I can do T10 as fast, why not? With the amount of lag I have these days, this is very good farming speed for me, not to mention I have a lot of fun playing this spec :D

As for rerolling to ancient ... done it a few times and failed a good amount as well.

[Shodokan]

Mainly blue/green goblins for mats. If I can do T10 as fast, why not? With the amount of lag I have these days, this is very good farming speed for me, not to mention I have a lot of fun playing this spec :D

As for rerolling to ancient ... done it a few times and failed a good amount as well.

Even at 20 re-rolls its still much faster than farming it by hand.

[Devile]

I have mixed feelings here. Done both and for some weapons, rerolling was fast, but for some others, spent thousands of souls and nothing. Not even an ancient bad roll, NOTHING! While took less time farming it. It's RNG and yes, rerolling should be faster but for example my bow for my 3rd DH took forever. And the weird part, I got 3 Ancient Bows on S5 but not for that particular DH.

[Cmoidudu]

@Cmo you should do bounties to re-roll your twister sword. Much easier to do that then to just rift until you get it ancient as a drop.
Of course in the meantime I got plenty of ancient Bovine Bardiches :)

I'll try to use another main dps first, and then I'll probably do that.

[Devile]

Quicktip: maybe everyone knew this but me, but Urshi's legendary gem order is based on the order your gems are in your character and stash. I used to upgrade my gems just by searching on each char which one I was upgrading and that took a few second per char cause I couldn't just click on my main and let it pick that same slot for all chars. If u do back to back grifts to upgrade gems, those seconds add up to several minutes.

Urshi will show up first the 3 legendary gems u are wearing (left ring, right ring and then amulet). The next gem will be the first one in your stash from left to right. So just order your gems from left to right and make sure the top left slot of the tab where u have all your gems is the one u are upgrading. Do that for all your chars and the slots will match in all 4 chars. Something like this:

http://i.imgur.com/iBlMYzM.jpg

Once u reach the gem to the wanted level, u just move it down below in your stash. In my case I'm doing 60s right now so as soon as a gem reaches 52, I move it down so the 4th slot on Urshi's screen is what I always click on my main so all chars get their gems upgraded fast.

http://i.imgur.com/SjCTyYQ.jpg

Matches exactly and saved my quite some time. Prolly a known information, but I didn't know and always went thru the boring process of checking on each char which gem was the one I was upgrading :P

[Ellay]

This is super useful. did not know it either! I figured it was whatever gem you got first ended up in the list.

[Cmoidudu]

Yes, was already doing this way. But thanks for mentioning.

About the Meta-Team, I tried to use a Crusader / Roland / Sweep Attack and unfortunately, while it is way easier to handle, DPS is too low. I'm running out of time at GR60, so nothing compared to a Wizard-based setup. The good thing is that globe generation helps to maintain Sweep Attack at max speed on the boss...

Also, I don't have an ancient Golden Flense... But still, with an ancient one, I might push to the high 60's to low 70's, not good enough.

Template used : http://www.d3planner.com/840541818

By now I think I have every ancient weapon in the game on each of my characters, save for a Twisted Sword and a Golden Flence :D

[Ellay]

Template I am working on, but will take me a while is 3x WD and a monk. I think a barb will work as well but the monk provides the mob clumping superior to anyone. When they all bunch together the pets stay with you and the gargs just cleave through everything.

Use a standard 2.4 LoN garg WD build, and a support Globe monk. One of the passives will be Gruesome feast for 50% more damage uptime.

The biggest issue I'll be running into is most likely survivability. Currently I run through TX with ease and everything feels like a oneshot and I don't have any characters with the LoN set just Helltooth.
Big Bad Voodoo is where this team will shine, mix the 3 stackable runes together and you should have close to 100% uptime giving 60% IAS and 30% more damage. The IAS is the key as it will unlock the next breakpoint chain that most teams never achieve.
Right now BBV + Task and Theo gives the Garg a 54 point breakpoint, an extra 40% IAS should deliver it down to the next breakpoint and I'd guess it might even hit the next breakpoint after that if you throw in the monk using Transgression to add another 10%.
All the DPS is coming from the Gargs and they hit extremely hard. With my non optimal gear I see 11 billion crits from just 1.

So train of the thought and limited testing, the monk does any amazing job clumping the mobs and keeping the pets close by due to the clumping. The Gargs cleave it all. Surviving will be the big question, Barb offers perma 50% DR but I haven't been able to test out channeling bats yet which gives 25% + 30% DR.

[Devile]

I'm working towards that but with a support barb. Monk looks good but perma immunity is kinda hard to pass on. Maybe use Krelm bracers and monk for high DPS. I'm half way getting the items. The biggest problem with this template is gargantuan AI. It SUCKS. It's so so bad. Been playing WDs for the last 4 days and pets AI is just horrible, and that's without 15 fetishes blocking the gargs. Try multiboxing this setup and fight Orlash. U will be amazed how dumb gargs are. They just stare at Orlash for quite a while no matter what.

Blizzard needs improve pets AI or lower the cooldown so u can recast garg faster and reposition it.

[Ellay]

It they act silly, I just run away for a moment and then back.
I am concerned the Fetishes will block the action but I currently have 12 zombie dogs running around and they seem to do fine, dropping 1 WD for a monk definitely helped the congestion.
If anything.. WD x2 + Barb + Monk might be the next option. I love DPS though.

[Devile]

Yeah that's my fallback plan aswell. 2 globe supports + 2 DPS WDs. Still a long road ahead to get all the LoN stuff for all 3. I have 6-8 Ancient items on each WD. Been crafting a ton of ceremonial knives and only got 1 ancient Sacred Harvester. Already have 4x ancient dagger of darts, the grasp of the dead weapon and other weapons but 0 ancient SMK and that 1 SH :-/

[Shodokan]

Friend has solo cleared 80+ on his WD and said that a lot of the time you have to reposition your gargs with re-casts to combat the AI problems.

[Devile]

Yep, u have to do that quite frequently. Gargs either focus on trash while u are facing an elite pack alone or stop attacking altogether. Wish the cooldown was lower.

[Cmoidudu]

I have been thinking of a different setup with 2x DPS and 2x zDPS, but when you go over GR65-70, you really need all of the damage reductions from both Monk and Barbarian, otherwise survivability will be a problem. And since there is no better zDPS than a WD, you need it too...

Or maybe it's possible to share all the buffs from a zDPS WD among 2 WDs who are DPS... But I'm well aware of the pet A.I. problem too. So I wanted to try 2x WDs with Firebats, but not using Gargantuans in the build is wasting like 50% of the DPS so this is not going anywhere :(

[Devile]

It's not gonna work without gargs. They do far more than 50% of your DPS. Maybe if u go with a 2 hander they will deal low damage but with a fast 1 hander they deal crazy damage. If u get mobs in a tight group they just destroy everything in a few hits. GR50 they can easily 1 shot champions. Right now u simply can't make a pushing build without them because of how good they are.

I'm going to test also a hybrid LoN dart + gargs combo. Darts deal way more single target damage than firebats and don't need mana so u can easily use any BBV on all 3 WDs and be at 100% for your Aquila buff. A support globe barb maybe to help with Gruesome Feast uptime. Gargs can take care of the trash. Darts will melt elites and rg. 3 BBVA will let u hit the next breakpoint easily. I already have 4x ancient dagger of darts + 4x SMKs cubed. Just need a few more items and I'll give it a try.

My other test is gonna be 2-3 DMO wizards + 1-2 non globe supports. Go with an DMO AT ET build with Etched Sigil and a lot of arcane power regen. So the wizards can self sustain ET and let the supports be regular supports that only focus on adding more survivability and improve DPS regardless if they hit mobs or not. That way u can aim freely into corners and let your twisters stack.

PS: nvm, darts + garg dont mix. Back to Firebats.

[Ellay]

I was getting hyped reading darts + gargs, what made it not work?

[Ellay]

Additionally Monk would be less useful in a LoN darts fashion, everyone would be super far away.

Looking over the spec, could be totally doable.

[Devile]

Both specs dont mix well cause the damage skill on items, elemental damage and a gem. It may work but not sure if it will outdamage Firebats which is AoE right at the center of all the mobs u pull. Darts use Simplicity Strenght while Gargs go with Enforcer. Also Fetish Army damage vs Garg damage on items. Physical damage vs Cold. And finally, darts got screwed with the area damage fix. Blizzard changed the hitbox sizes and now darts easily miss targets and dont hit as many as they used to. Darts are too thin and pass right by mobs. That's why u dont see them high in the leaderboards.

U also lose a TON of damage reduction: 30% from 5 more stacks from Sacred Harvester, 25% from mantle of channeling and 30% from coils of the first spider. And even more if u play ranged cause of Swampland Attunement. Same with dps loss with Confidence Ritual. 2 passives gone unless u play melee with all that DR missing? Doesnt add up. The tradeoff is huge just to make darts work.

Firebats make more sense, specially Vampire Bats that have no channeling cost which means u can simple go with any BBVs runes instead of Rain Dance. Cloud of Bats needs Rain Dance for all WDs which wont stack the IAS.

As for Razor Strop, keep an eye on this reddit post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/46grs4/lfperson_with_lon_razor_strop_idea_for_high/

[Ellay]

omg that sounds so awesome too... now I may want some barbs. Builds like that seem amazing.

[Devile]

Another tip: found this useful info for ET wizards:

http://m.inven.co.kr/board/powerbbs.php?come_idx=2974&l=20760

Its in Korean but u can tell easily from the images and video.

[Kicksome]

I was able to do up to GR79 with a zDPS monk and 3x LoN crusaders, but I tried 80 a couple times and just couldn't do it. Missed it by like 15 seconds one time. I'm going to try again this weekend. I have a few upgrades since then, and a lot more paragon levels. I still need to do the despair upgrade on a few pieces on each guy.

Really, survival wasn't too big an issue (although the monk died a few times). The monk running the Dodge Mantra and it's pretty crazy. I was up to over 1 billion toughness at some points on the crusaders with buffs and stuff on the ground.

1614

[Shodokan]

I was able to do up to GR79 with a zDPS monk and 3x LoN crusaders, but I tried 80 a couple times and just couldn't do it. Missed it by like 15 seconds one time. I'm going to try again this weekend. I have a few upgrades since then, and a lot more paragon levels. I still need to do the despair upgrade on a few pieces on each guy.

Really, survival wasn't too big an issue (although the monk died a few times). The monk running the Dodge Mantra and it's pretty crazy. I was up to over 1 billion toughness at some points on the crusaders with buffs and stuff on the ground.

1614

The barb + monk setup on quin's stream is doing GR 75s in like 3 mins and 80s in like 5 mins. So damage wise two monks are more than enough if you are having survival problems. The barb is unfortunately a WW spec.

I think they capped out at around 84 though for efficient farming (less than 10 mins per rift)

[Cmoidudu]

3x LoN crusaders
Do you have a template for the LoN Crusaders ? Are you using flails, or riding horses ?


Another tip: found this useful info for ET wizards
Thanks for that :)

One more things, also... the "big guys" seem to be using high-level Gems of Ease in weapons sockets for the zDPS. Does it make a real difference ?

[Shodokan]

Do you have a template for the LoN Crusaders ? Are you using flails, or riding horses ?


Thanks for that :)

One more things, also... the "big guys" seem to be using high-level Gems of Ease in weapons sockets for the zDPS. Does it make a real difference ?

Theres no other gem that would provide benefit as a ZDPS in weapon... so its more or less just there because thats their only true option. Its negligible.

[Kicksome]

I was able to do up to GR79 with a zDPS monk and 3x LoN crusaders, but I tried 80 a couple times and just couldn't do it. Missed it by like 15 seconds one time. I'm going to try again this weekend. I have a few upgrades since then, and a lot more paragon levels. I still need to do the despair upgrade on a few pieces on each guy.

Really, survival wasn't too big an issue (although the monk died a few times). The monk running the Dodge Mantra and it's pretty crazy. I was up to over 1 billion toughness at some points on the crusaders with buffs and stuff on the ground.

1614

Ok, completed a GR82 finally. I tried adding a mage in the mix, but the mage was just getting killed too easily. That monk is very handy. And the monk's gear still is weak as hell, just a few ancients. Not sure if I'll make it to 85 though. Feels like there's not much room left.

http://kicksome.com/82rift.jpg

[Cmoidudu]

OK so I completed GR78 which makes me a little far from the head of the competition :D

I have been busy adding level 70 Caldesann's buffs on my team... Also I found that it's possible to "lock" Twisters in doorways, as seen in picture below. Still no ancient Twister Sword. I know I should try to reforge a regular one, but running missions all day long is incredibly boring so I just don't.

1616

[edit] GR79 video here, had plenty of time, easy map and easy mob type however. Also I removed my "cubed" Overwhelming Desire amulets since it could cause monsters to fight each other in the distance, instead of packing. I'm using Oculus Rings instead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIDrPQMoKoQ

[Devile]

Just wasted like 6 gems augmenting my wizard gear with DEX ... oh well :/

[Kicksome]

Just wasted like 6 gems augmenting my wizard gear with DEX ... oh well :/
Oh man, my friend did that too. That's a bummer.

[Kicksome]

Well - up to 84 now. I'm pretty confident I can hit 85. I tried it once and missed it by about 20 seconds. Pretty crazy how a few tweaks make such a big difference.

One thing is for sure - you have to know what packs to skip, and make that decision quick - that seems to make a massive difference. I made some really bad decisions wasting time on shielding guys etc..

http://kicksome.com/tier84.jpg

[Cmoidudu]

BTW have you noticed how your character on the left looks like a dwarf ? Funny glitch from Blizzard :)

[Devile]

Well - up to 84 now. I'm pretty confident I can hit 85. I tried it once and missed it by about 20 seconds. Pretty crazy how a few tweaks make such a big difference.

One thing is for sure - you have to know what packs to skip, and make that decision quick - that seems to make a massive difference. I made some really bad decisions wasting time on shielding guys etc..

http://kicksome.com/tier84.jpg

Gratz! I'm still farming gear. Long road ahead.

PS: Can you show your 4 chars specs.

[Kicksome]

Gratz! I'm still farming gear. Long road ahead.

PS: Can you show your 4 chars specs.

Hey Devile, sure.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Kicksome-1212/hero/71329804
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sweetcakes-1662/hero/71329807 or http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sweetcakes-1662/hero/73249681
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Kicksome3-1399/hero/71329806
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Kicksome4-1510/hero/71329805

I ran out of keys last night so I started farming a few and put back my flails.

For pushing 80+ I change a few things:
I switched to doombringer for the ~20% physical - keep steed charge up all the time wasn't helping much with the flails.
I also gave one guy "The Final Witness" - shield glare hits everyone around
The monk runs mantra of salvation - Agility - for the 35% dodge bonus. That seems to be really helpful - I can also spam this every 3 seconds or so - to keep up an extra 20% more resistance to all.

I keep changing things around with the specs on the crusaders. Just trying the different law combos / shield glares vs consecration and long arm of the law vs indestructible passive.

I still need a hellfire for one crusader that rolls a useful passive. I hate farming keys, then doing like 20 uber runs and getting 1 or 2 ancients that are junk.

[Devile]

But how do u make it work with Steed Charge + Monk?

[Kicksome]

But how do u make it work with Steed Charge + Monk?
Almost all the damage is bombardment timed with COE. So I have to time that right. I have another force move button for just my crusaders. So my monk can sit there and attack, cyclone etc... in one area, and I can just force move my crusaders back and forth across the pack. My g key will force move crusaders only, and my space bar force moves them all.

I also have the 50% movement law on one crusader, so it helps getting around, because the monk drives - so they go as slow as the monk.

[Shodokan]

Almost all the damage is bombardment timed with COE. So I have to time that right. I have another force move button for just my crusaders. So my monk can sit there and attack, cyclone etc... in one area, and I can just force move my crusaders back and forth across the pack. My g key will force move crusaders only, and my space bar force moves them all.

I also have the 50% movement law on one crusader, so it helps getting around, because the monk drives - so they go as slow as the monk.

Theres a LOT of damage you are letting go of. In GR 65 I can still kill a pack with COE pony without even using bombardment (with shield glare)

[Ellay]

Still working on pieces and finalizing the build more but 3 WD / 1 monk seems decent. Offensively it feels fine at Grift 56 (highest I've tried) but it needs more back end support. Trying to find the best way to juggle defensive options while still maintaining crazy dps. Sheet DPS goes up to 5 mil when you throw down triple Drums, and with a Star Metal Kukri it's always off cooldown.

[Kicksome]

So I was finally able to hit 85, while trying some new stuff out.

A few notes. I switched out another crusader for a wizard on another account (My kids both have D3, but they never play, so I can use their (actually my) accounts as well). I had a friend power level my wizard to 500+ paragon in a few hours, while I played my main accts mostly - and just moved the wiz around to get gear and get on the same map. I was CRAZY lucky with gear on my wiz and played him solo a bunch.

The only reason I did the wiz on another account was because my stash and character slots are totally full. Having looked back, that wasn't a great move, I should have created it on an account I already had 1000+ paragons on. So I started gearing up a wiz on one of my 4 main accounts.

So for the 85 run, I had 1 wiz - with like 3 "Despair" upgrades on my items - but good items. 1 crusader (almost all 75+ despair upgraded), 1 support monk, 1 support barb.

The crusader was good at picking up the globes because I ran him around randomly to get globes. The Wiz, monk, Barb pretty much just stacked on each other the whole time, while the wiz did the tornadoes with no specific positioning strat.

So after this, I'm, figuratively, going to start from scratch with a new group comp or two. I think Crusaders are awesome for farming up to 70 or so, and getting keys, and a lot of fun to play, but I have some other ideas I'd like to try. But first I have to gear the new comp. I was able to do 80 with my other wiz, but got way behind at 83 - but my gear is also terrible at this point on my other wizard.



http://kicksome.com/tier85a.jpg

[Ellay]

So I haven't touched Wizards at all this season but from what I keep seeing their DPS is just insane as long as the globes are flowing, is that correct?

[Kicksome]

So I haven't touched Wizards at all this season but from what I keep seeing their DPS is just insane as long as the globes are flowing, is that correct?

Yes, as long as they have arcane power - so using globes and reaper wraps. So basically, you have a monk and a bard doing zDPS and generating globes. With the monk and Barb trying to pull everything into the wizards tornadoes. While a WD collects the orbs and provides 30% damage increase etc... So everything is basically buffing the Wizard and counting on them to pull all the DPS.

[Cmoidudu]

So I haven't touched Wizards at all this season but from what I keep seeing their DPS is just insane as long as the globes are flowing, is that correct?
Wizard DPS is insane, and the 3 other dudes are here to gather creatures, multiplicate damage, collect globes AND increase toughness by a lot.

[Devile]

It's gonna be nerfed after S5 for sure. It's utterly broken. The problem is the sword, not the class, the set or the skills at all. The supports are there to increase toughness, provide endless amount of arcane power and IAS. It's all about IAS. The more speed, the more twisters u can have in 6 secs and the sword will increase your damage 150% per twister. If there are no AP issues and u have insane APS (also around 100%+ Area Damage), then your damage will scale like crazy. That's why they use Pain Enhancer (rank 25 is enough cause they only care about the IAS effect of the gem) and focus on high density. With a huge amount of mobs, u will prolly hit the highest breakpoint and have like 30 twisters stacking the 150% damage increase from the sword.

This post explains it pretty good:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/42figq/energy_twister_mechanics_explained/

No other class comes even remotely close to Wizards cause of that sword. Besides DMO is so OP, there's no LoN spec that works for wizards. Those multipliers are so high, LoN is a complete joke for Wizards. Twisted Sword + DMO = infinite damage scaling, as long as u have the support to keep the wizard alive and feed him infinite arcane power.

We can work combinations with other classes to do 80+, but I don't think we will do much more than that without a dps Wizard.

[Kicksome]

It's gonna be nerfed after S5 for sure. It's utterly broken. The problem is the sword, not the class, the set or the skills at all. The supports are there to increase toughness, provide endless amount of arcane power and IAS. It's all about IAS. The more speed, the more twisters u can have in 6 secs and the sword will increase your damage 150% per twister. If there are no AP issues and u have insane APS (also around 100%+ Area Damage), then your damage will scale like crazy. That's why they use Pain Enhancer (rank 25 is enough cause they only care about the IAS effect of the gem) and focus on high density. With a huge amount of mobs, u will prolly hit the highest breakpoint and have like 30 twisters stacking the 150% damage increase from the sword.

This post explains it pretty good:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/42figq/energy_twister_mechanics_explained/

No other class comes even remotely close to Wizards cause of that sword. Besides DMO is so OP, there's no LoN spec that works for wizards. Those multipliers are so high, LoN is a complete joke for Wizards. Twisted Sword + DMO = infinite damage scaling, as long as u have the support to keep the wizard alive and feed him infinite arcane power.

We can work combinations with other classes to do 80+, but I don't think we will do much more than that without a dps Wizard.

The thing I can't quite figure out yet - is why 2 wizards, monk, barb wouldn't be better. I have around 12 pickup radius on my barb. Maybe the different slow time bubbles don't stack or something.

I'm going to read that post now - maybe that will shed some insight.

I have one geared wizard, and just started another wizard - but on that one I have 12x 84 gems waiting for him to gem up decent gear.

It's pretty crazy - you just need a geared wizard - the monk and barb can have pretty crappy gear that you can get in an hour. I started a WD and was able to get him to support mode in an hour or two also. It's just the wizard that needs all the gem augments, and the BiS gear.

So almost worth starting 4 wizards, use the flashfire spec (http://www.diablofans.com/builds/70681-flash-fire-wizard-t10-speed) to farm tx quickly, and give all the good gear to your main wizard.

[Devile]

2x Wizards + monk/wd + barb is one of the things I will try soon and I think they will be more efficient for speed runs. The problem with pushing high GR is that without that 3rd support, u will die. Sure u will have more party damage, but those wizards will get destroyed fast. U need the monk and the barb cause they provide insane DR. U may be ok for 70-80, but once u go higher, without the CC and DR from the WD, u will start dying left and right. Not to mention the lack of pickup radius will force u to move around to get those globes which will screw your wizards positioning unless u use keymaps just to move 1 char to pick up globes.

Instead u just build a glass canon wizard with a ton of IAS and area damage, u keep him alive, u feed him all the globes u can spawn and u pull all the mobs u can to a single tight corner for him to destroy them.

Check my spec for flashfire in the other post :D Gearing wizards is pretty simple with it.

[Cmoidudu]

It's just the maths here. Let's say that 1 Wizard does 1M DPS, so 2 of them do 2 MDPS (which is probably not true because some buffs won't stack properly)... but a WD can increase damage more than 150%... so 1M+150% = 2.5M which is more than 2M with 2 Wizards and no WD... Plus all the crowd controls that you need to survive past GR75, etc.

[Devile]

Only if u straight add up every debuff it will be a 150% or so, but its more like 100%. Remember several debuffs are additive and u can't just add them like that. Still, the logic is the same. 1 WD will add same or even more DPS than 1 wizard but a ton more survivability. Try a simulation in d3planner and u will see how it can double a wizard's dps. Crazy :P

[Kicksome]

Only if u straight add up every debuff it will be a 150% or so, but its more like 100%. Remember several debuffs are additive and u can't just add them like that. Still, the logic is the same. 1 WD will add same or even more DPS than 1 wizard but a ton more survivability. Try a simulation in d3planner and u will see how it can double a wizard's dps. Crazy :P

Devile - man that is so true - so far, 2 Wizards just didn't even come close to the same DPS as 1 WD and 1 Wiz.


http://kicksome.com/tier86.jpg

[Kicksome]

Well, 90 is gonna be tough.

http://kicksome.com/tier89.jpg

[Cmoidudu]

Well, 90 is gonna be tough.
Wow congratulations !

Are you leading with the Monk ?

[Ellay]

That's still awesome your grinding that high.
Can you give me a glimpse of what it looks like doing just a regular TX rift after being able to do grift 89, does everything just explode as you walk by?
That's currently how it is using 1 monk and 3x WD, but I haven't pushed past grift 60 yet (haven't tried, feel defense is too weak).

It might be time to finally accept the meta and make one of each

[Kicksome]

Are you leading with the Monk ?

The monk is lead, I actually geared a monk on my first account (I use to use my second acct for monk).

So I basically just took a look at the leaderboard, saw exactly what the top people were using skill and gear wise, and made some changes. That got me from 85-89 or so, a few gear changes, and skill changes. And increase orb radius on Barb and WD.

For farming keys. mats and doing TX - I just use 4x crusaders LoN Bombardment. It's WAY faster, I can do GR 70 in maybe 5 minutes, so TX is just a joke. If I used the progression team to farm with, it would just take a lot longer, since the crusaders are 150% speed 95% of the time.

I also am farming with the FlashFire spec on the wizard too - Devile posted about it earlier. I actually created a FlashFire wizard on my wiz account just so I don't have to swap all the gear and specs around, pretty handy. So I have 2 wizards on the same account, 1 progression, 1 for tx farming.

I did 89 two times in a row on my progression team (Forgot to screen shot the first), but I tried 90 about 3 times and was way behind - and all the sudden died a lot more. Then I ran out of rift keys, so I need to farm some more again.

Also - I just can't control the wizard's twister like a decent wizard player while multiboxing, so the twisters go all over the place. I think if I could get that down - it could make a huge difference. While watching some streams of good wizards, they can just stick twisters in certain spots - depends on map geography.

[Kirushi]

Gratz on that Kicksome, awsome :)
Can you post your exact character profiles of your meta team ?

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Well, 90 is gonna be tough.

http://kicksome.com/tier89.jpg
So...stat squish inc? :p

[Kicksome]

So...stat squish inc? :p

I did manage to get 90 a few times, in just under 13 minutes was my best time. I swapped in my other wizard now, with gear that isn't as good as the wizard on my kid's accts - and I'm at 89 - I really want to get 90 on my 4 main accounts.

It's annoying because they play wow - and the tells from wow show up in diablo3 - along with their responses. And my son is ranked top 160 in the US in pvp - 2600+ rating, so I don't want to screw anything up for him. And it's pretty distracting. So that's my main incentive to swap out the wizards, all the wow tells going to diablo3. Man, poor kid gets TONS of hate tells when his 3's plays a big streamer in wow and they lose or win.

[Ellay]

Latest information on 2.4.1 notes this meta combo will be no more. Twisted Sword is now max 5 stack, Barb Ignore Pain is 25% instead of 50% and Solanium has a 8 second internal cooldown.
Granted it'll be a long while before this comes about I'm hoping the next meta involves more than 1 DPS and 3 support.

[Cmoidudu]

Well that's nice, so the big Twich dudes got 2500+ Paragon levels, meanwhile I haven't even found an ancient Twisted Sword, and this is going to be nerfed to the ground...

By the way the biggest nerf here is on Ignore Pain IMHO.

[edit] You missed that one...

Hammer of the Ancients - Birthright : Critical Hits heal you for 3% of your maximum Life. (reworked from dropping health globes)

[Kicksome]

I think I'm going to need some more skill to get much higher, or a hell of a lot more paragon points. I might be able to push to 91 or 92, but I ran out of keys again.

http://kicksome.com/tier90.jpg

[woloss]

http://kicksome.com/tier90.jpg
Amazing, my congratulations. Can't wait when you pass 91+ GR)

[Cmoidudu]

The Meta-Team is going to change "soon", in the meantime I'm pushing GRs to increase Paragon levels and my most-used gems...

It seems that the Gem of Efficaceous Toxin is going to be buffed in 2.4.1 (should decrease enemy damage too) so maybe it's a good time to raise it (at the moment ther's no point in raising if over level 25). It also seems that Bane of the Poweful will decrease elite damage (in addition to the damage increase).

Let's check this when 2.4.1 goes on PTR ;)

[Wgizmo]

If it will stay like that looks like invoker cruss will be the way to go for start. Free set at start buffed. Or meaby they have something new to offer fo season players we will see. It will be nice to have in season 6 more than one class/spec to do dmg in gr runs. Zunimassa going to get buffed then meaby dart zuni will be back ;)

[Devile]

Well, we knew it was coming since that sword was completely broken. The Barb changes I wasn't expecting and kinda sucks but whatever, as long as they buff the other classes, it will work. The globes nerf doesn't really matter unless cause even if u go with a WD Gruesome Feast build there are ways to keep the 5 stacks with a Barb.

Looking forward for the PTR to try WDs. Zuni and Helltooth changes look very good. Same with Monks. Tal Rasha's will get my speedfarm spec to do 65s+ in less than 5 mins. Maybe even 70s :D

Been wanting to play Crusaders for a while but I hate LoN and that looked like the only choice. Seems like the Invoker's change may boost this set to LoN levels. Really looking forward to this change.

[Cmoidudu]

The problem is, now that I'm used to run perma Ignore Pain, I don't want to be frozen or knockbacked or feared again. Ever.

So, I simulated some new templates for the 2.4.1 team, with :
- a DMO Wizard using Arcane Orbit (http://www.d3planner.com/667060849)
- a Might of the Earth Barbarian casting a lot of Avalanches but still he can maintain Ignore Pain up 100% of the time (http://www.d3planner.com/600123546)
- a Sunwoko - Wave of Light Monk who still can maintain Inner Sanctuary up 100% of the time (http://www.d3planner.com/643033421)
- and of course the inevitable zDPS WD.

Might of the Earth and Sunwoko sets will be buffed in 2.4.1, also the DMO Wizard will use a Crown of the Primus in the cube, which alone is a lot of buffs/debuffs. Hopefully it will compensate for the loss of Inna's Mantras from the Monk...

[Wgizmo]

Zunimassa pet build looks promissing as your pets and army can tank and you just spam darts form behind. In season 4 dart WD was one of the best for RG as it was best single target dps for season. Lets wait for PTR and final notes.

[Cmoidudu]

The problem with pet builds is that when you have 9 or 12 gargantuans, zombie dogs, and a whole army of fetishes, they will cause a "traffic jam" and some of them will be sitting ducks, which is a huge DPS loss.

[Ellay]

Currently running into that right now. I had to drop the dogs, and only use Gargs but in order for Star Metal Kukri to be effective you need the fetishes out, you end up with your main DPS just standing there. So back at the same issue. I did drop 1 WD to a monk which maintained the same damage and made a little more room to work. The next problem though is not moving as fast. if Its not all WD's you can run through the map as easily.

The Barb ignore pain preventing any type of CC seems quite addiciting, luckily I've never used that combo to experience how fluid that must feel :P

[Cmoidudu]

The Barb ignore pain preventing any type of CC seems quite addiciting, luckily I've never used that combo to experience how fluid that must feel :P
Lucky You :D

The only affix that still works is Wormhole, all the rest (Frozen, Jailer, Knockback...) is gone.

[Wgizmo]

Currently running into that right now. I had to drop the dogs, and only use Gargs but in order for Star Metal Kukri to be effective you need the fetishes out, you end up with your main DPS just standing there. So back at the same issue. I did drop 1 WD to a monk which maintained the same damage and made a little more room to work. The next problem though is not moving as fast. if Its not all WD's you can run through the map as easily.

The Barb ignore pain preventing any type of CC seems quite addiciting, luckily I've never used that combo to experience how fluid that must feel :P

As far I remember if you keep fetishes only you would have 5 close to you and send tarts its mean would be around 20 of them plus rest of them on elite. Its like shield and walking wall preventing anything come close to you. But I need to see it how it looks on ptr. I would love to test running all 4 wd's with each range build. Problem is the start of season and cruss buffed invoker looks promising at start. Meta whise in 2.4.1 its still unknow as there to much buffs on all classes and some nerfs/rework of skills including gems. Looking forward. Atm going to farm on cruss and level up some wd to have ready for ptr.

[Cmoidudu]

Gem of Efficacious Toxin (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/gem-of-efficacious-toxin)

Poisoned enemies now also deal 10% reduced damage

Well I guess that we are all going to be wearing 4x Gems of Efficaceous Toxin... +40% damage and +40% damage reduction seem hard to beat ;)

[Kicksome]

Gem of Efficacious Toxin (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/gem-of-efficacious-toxin)

Poisoned enemies now also deal 10% reduced damage

Well I guess that we are all going to be wearing 4x Gems of Efficaceous Toxin... +40% damage and +40% damage reduction seem hard to beat ;)
Are you sure that stacks? So hard to tell these days.

[Devile]

This patch looks really good for some classes:


DHs: Steady Aim and Wolf damage bonus are now multiplicative. Boar life regen and resistance granted to party. U can have 3 DHs with round robin Wolf and 1 with Boar for a nice DPS + resistance buff (wonder if the buff stacks when more than 1 boar). M6 got a nice dps buff as well plus the new Elemental Quiver, seems like Elemental Arrow build are coming back! UE got also some love and more dps.
Wizards: Archon looks extremely tanky. New ring for Storm Armor ... no more melee shit to get DR. Pretty big buff for Firebirds. Tal's looks decent.
Barbs: Whirlwind is back???? Skull Grasp redesigned and deals 250-300% multiplicative damage!
Crusaders: Invoker's looks very good!
Monks: Sunwuko deals twice the damage now???
WDs: new belt for a Firebats build. Helltooth got a huge damage boost, will prolly make it comparable with LoN. Jade got a 2x damage buff as well. Arachyr will still be shit. Zuni looks good but the DR all around seems low. We need a buff in DR. Also new pants for Sacrifice builds??? Nothing about pets AI ... geez! how long this will take to fix???????????

Random stuff:


U can salvage legendary pots! nice!
Multiplicative damage all over the place.
Depth Diggers damage also multiplicative. This makes this pants pretty much mandatory for every generator build.
Sanguinary Vambraces fixed now?
Fixed Bounties for Act 3-4 reward. No more leaving Act 3 last.
Reduced exp on GR70+ (bummer). Never gonna catch up those para 2000+ ppl.

[Cmoidudu]

Are you sure that stacks? So hard to tell these days.
Yep this has been demonstrated a long time ago... unless this has been modified in the meantime. Maybe the defensive part won't work that way, but I don't see a reason why it shouldn't...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg3YQFsKIoI





Reduced exp on GR70+ (bummer). Never gonna catch up those para 2000+ ppl.


Actually they reduced XP, rewards, but monster damage also...




Monks: Sunwuko deals twice the damage now???


Yes I have hope there. This is why I will try to include a Sunwoko Monk with Wave of Light in my group setup, but since I want this dude to be able to perma-cast Inner Sanctuary, he won't do as much damage as a pure DPS dude. We'll see.

[Devile]

Yep this has been demonstrated a long time ago... unless this has been modified in the meantime. Maybe the defensive part won't work that way, but I don't see a reason why it shouldn't...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg3YQFsKIoI

Actually they reduced XP, rewards, but monster damage also...

Yes I have hope there. This is why I will try to include a Sunwoko Monk with Wave of Light in my group setup, but since I want this dude to be able to perma-cast Inner Sanctuary, he won't do as much damage as a pure DPS dude. We'll see.

About Toxin, thats a big IF. We need to test. If it doesn't stack, I dont think it's going to be worth it cause remember that 40% debuff is ADDITIVE and with several other additive debuffs/buff vs a ton of multiplicative damage bonus on the new gems, that 40% won't add much party damage. Now, if the DR is stackable, that's a different story.

Reduced XP? We dunno how much they nerfed exp. If power creep lets u do higher GR equal or greater than the exp nerf ratio, then fine, but if not, then u will never catch up. Not like I plan to hit para 2000 any time soon, but at least I know I have a chance :D

[Cmoidudu]

After all, there seem to be a very good DH template running on the PTR... It's a Chakram spammer, with 4P Marauder and 2P Shadow's Mantle.

Honestly I have no explaination why 4P Marauder + 2P Shadow's Mantle would do better than 6P Marauder, but still, this seems to be the new uber-template.

Something like this (chosen element and skill affixes needs testing) :

http://www.d3planner.com/176985338

[Wgizmo]

Philosophios is streaming live from ptr allready and did some nice video:https://youtu.be/-Ym7E8lRCJ0

[Devile]

After all, there seem to be a very good DH template running on the PTR... It's a Chakram spammer, with 4P Marauder and 2P Shadow's Mantle.

Honestly I have no explaination why 4P Marauder + 2P Shadow's Mantle would do better than 6P Marauder, but still, this seems to be the new uber-template.

Something like this (chosen element and skill affixes needs testing) :

http://www.d3planner.com/176985338

template is naked :D hybrid cause the Shadow Mantle 2 piece gives 1200% damage as long as u use a melee weapon. That's why they use 4 pieces of Marauder and 2 Shadow. Will get nerfed for sure. That's the top build used on the first iteration on 2.4 PTR. To OP.

[Cmoidudu]

template is naked
LOL. There you go : http://www.d3planner.com/397346783

If the template survives the PTR, which I don't think it will, I'd go for 2x DH, 1x Barb, 1x WD, and melee combat... 4x DH with ranged combat is another option.

[Devile]

Naaa, it will be nerfed for sure. It was nerfed on previous PTR. Not meant to work like that, but who knows.

I hate how Blizzard tests with UNREALISTIC scenarios, making something extremely OP. I undesrtand they do this to "force" us to test more a particular build but its dumb cause it only generates drama and frustration. They make a set too OP and then nerf it to the ground to the point its USELESS. That's just stupid. They should test it with realistic stats so we can provide real feedback and then balance the set accordingly. By the time it goes live, it will be more balanced. They fucked up Firebirds that way. Made it extremely OP and then turned it into crap.

Besides, in most cases they are fucking lazy and add numbers, nothing more. If that's the case, why not do it RIGHT and for all sets. Arachyr's, Akkhan, WotW, etc. If they are gonna add just %damage, make sure all non used sets get the same treatment so they are competitive.

[Shodokan]

LOL. There you go : http://www.d3planner.com/397346783

If the template survives the PTR, which I don't think it will, I'd go for 2x DH, 1x Barb, 1x WD, and melee combat... 4x DH with ranged combat is another option.

The damage from your sentires will outweigh the 1200% damage. What do you gain by dropping mara 6 piece now that it gives 800% per sentry and you will have 5 sentries? Even at 600% theres no reason for it. Unless they brought shadow 2 piece back to being a group wide buff, and even then its probably not enough to warrant dropping 6p mara since the total value is going to be 4000% damage increase.

[Devile]

Not sure how the damage calculation is done with this setup but ppl are doing 96 already with this setup. M4 + S2 is way way higher than M6 right now. Tho its F&R for rings and Hellfire for amulet.

Here's the math:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo3DemonHunters/comments/49xj70/is_m6_bonus_ie_800_per_sentry_multiplicative_ptr/

should get fixed as it was in previous PTR.

[Cmoidudu]

The damage from your sentires will outweigh the 1200% damage. What do you gain by dropping mara 6 piece now that it gives 800% per sentry and you will have 5 sentries? Even at 600% theres no reason for it. Unless they brought shadow 2 piece back to being a group wide buff, and even then its probably not enough to warrant dropping 6p mara since the total value is going to be 4000% damage increase.
Exactly what I said 4-5 post above "Honestly I have no explaination why 4P Marauder + 2P Shadow's Mantle would do better than 6P Marauder, but still, this seems to be the new uber-template."

The highest solo-GR done in PTR (for now) uses this template.

[edit] Well, not anymore LOL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B0M8XNRCMg

[Devile]

Been farming GR80 consistently under 10 mins for exp and gem upgrades. Pushed up to 85 with a few mins left. May push 90s but it gets to the point I need to fish certain maps/mobs, not to mention the damage is fairly high. I really dislike this meta. Just missing to items for my party, but the specs are these:

http://www.d3planner.com/592538612
http://www.d3planner.com/205801706
http://www.d3planner.com/403301741
http://www.d3planner.com/855449343

I can't play without Illusory Boots. It's so inefficient not to use them. Guess playing with perma immunity and moving thru mobs spoiled me :P It's fine for 80 but pushing higher it's tricky cause not having APD makes u VERY squishy. Here's a quick video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0Ru9kF4tmk

Getting used to this meta. Only 2 days playing with it. No fetishes, no SMK and using Ground Stomp for more globes and CC. Works pretty good.

[Cmoidudu]

Nicely done dude. You out-damage me by a lot. This is because...

- You are using 3 offensive gems on the Wizard and I'm using 2. I need to try and use Pain Enhancer.
- You have an ancient Twister Sword and I still don't :(
- You are using Threatening Shout/Falter on the Barbarian and i'm using Threatening Shout/Grim Harvest which generates a TON of globes but obviously you don't need that.

So I'll probably do some modifications on my own team. However I'm not playing a lot at the moment, I have things to do IRL, which is sad because I need to take time to chain GRs before this meta-team gets nerfed to the ground and then we loose 10+ GR levels on a new team... Well, I managed to gain ~200 Paragon levels, and I have 600+ incoming from season 5 when it ends (which is probably ~30 Paragon levels only when the transfer occurs)... But I still have ~100 GR keys to use.

Also I'd suggest that you ditch a defensive gem on the WD who really can't be killed anyway. Get rid of Mutilation Guard, and use another Gem of Efficaceous Toxin for +10% damage. Anyway you don't need the "move unhindered" part, since you already have Illusory Boots ;)

[Devile]

I started playing more hours pretty late on the season cause I had horrible lag issues. Tried pretty much everything and nothing worked. I had my suspicions that my ISP was doing something and a couple days ago I tried to VPN my games ... volia! lag gone. Those mofos are throttling my connection. Now I can play without issues.

Anyway, I'll ditch Mutilation Guard on the WD for Toxin as u suggest. Not gonna add much more, but every bit counts :D. I also changed a few things after my last video:


Grin Reaper voodoo mask for HT helm and went with Corruption shoulders for more pickup radius: Noticed that those clones were causing more problems than anything. Elites were being pulled away from my party cause they were fighting these clones. Happened many times, even with the RG, very annoying. They really don't add much since Haunt will spread regardless and Piranhas has such a low cooldown that makes no sense to have clones just to autocast Piranhas.
I'm not spamming Mass Confusion Paranoia anymore: Paranoia charms mobs and when they are charmed u cant pull them. Also, charmed mobs will engage other mobs and just like clones or fetishes, they will keep the fight away from your twisters. I switched my config so I first pull, cast Bubble, Inner Sanctuary and BBV only. For trash, I don't even use Mass Confusion at all, there's no need. I only use it for Elite Packs and only after I'm sure they are right where I want them. That has improved my killing speed and reduced my frustration :D.

I don't think the ancient sword will add that much damage compared to Pain Enhancer. IAS is everything for this build. Not using it is the big difference IMO. As for 2.4.1, yes, u might wanna farm those levels as soon as u can cause the difference is 1/2-1/3 of the current exp ratio. U will hit higher GR cause mobs do FAR LESS damage but exp gets nerfed hard. wudijo uploaded a video with all the math about the change.

Been testing with 1080p and 60fps. I uploaded another video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJQSWOVrwl8

Left it over night cause my upload sucks. Just saw it. Guess its worth uploading in this quality, looks so much better.

[Wgizmo]

As soon S6 start i will try focus on streaming as I'm really sad when I see all coky players form Diablo saying Multiboxing is fuck fail and you can do max gr 50! When I told them I can do with my meta setup do 60+ they say I'm fucking layer and stuff. In Season 6 we need to go more public like Diablo fans and stuff as I dont really like the way multiboxing is taken atm. Most of people dont have knowledge about it. For soem of them its boting and for others is cheating. They dont even know how hard is to play gr 80+ with meta setup. I know I shouldnt care but as long multibox is legit I would like to prove how wrong they are!

[Ughmahedhurtz]

I dont really like the way multiboxing is taken atm. Most of people dont have knowledge about it. For soem of them its boting and for others is cheating. They dont even know how hard is to play gr 80+ with meta setup. I know I shouldnt care but as long multibox is legit I would like to prove how wrong they are!
That's a lost cause. It's been that way since the beginning. The only thing they won't continuously and obstreperously argue over is that it is allowed by Blizzard, because there are blue posts stating that. All the rest is a constant pain in the ass that we all deal with to some degree.

[Cmoidudu]

I'm too old to complain, so I don't care what people say, and you should do the same. I multibox because I think it's challenging and interesting.

And about the "cocky" players, you'd amazed to see how they don't understand a thing about the mechanics of the very game they are playing ;)

[Wrathen]

I'm too old to complain, so I don't care what people say, and you should do the same. I multibox because I think it's challenging and interesting.

And about the "cocky" players, you'd amazed to see how they don't understand a thing about the mechanics of the very game they are playing ;)


HERE HERE!!! Play the game you want to play and enjoy dont worry or stress yourself with others.

[Wgizmo]

So far looks like dh,wiz,wd,monk stay strong.

[Cmoidudu]

I will not play without Ignore Pain / Mob Rule...

UNLESS I can build a ranged team, like 4x DH (3x DPS and 1x zDPS)... DH have so much Toughness now, this is ridiculous.

[Cmoidudu]

So, here is a GR83 video. Got it at third try. I suppose that I can maybe push to GR84 or GR85 if I burn 30-40 GR stones, but I won't bother. Still no ancient Twister Sword...

Soundtrack has been deleted because of copyright violation. Next time I'll use the same soundtrack but from YouTube, instead of playing from my own file :(


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTUNuizuPdY