My introduction

[Fleecy]

[Oh, a change of forum name does not change on my previous posts? - Fleecy, formally known as Fpsware]

While I've been dual-boxing for about 2 months now this is my first post on these forums. I've quietly sat back and read / watched everyone else. I thought I'd post this image of my setup for no reason other than I get wet each and every morning I wake up to this beast. I'm sure I'll get around to posting a screenshot of my girls sooner or later but for now this is all I have.

I'll dedicate this first post to my wife who has "allowed" me to kit out my / our computer room.

Image quality is not the best as it was shot on my mobile phone under bad light.

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3217/dscf4830iu5.jpg

The Rig: Viewsonic 20" Widescreen - Viewsonic 22" Widescreen - Viewsonic 20" Widescreen - HP 19"(I hope to replace the small 19" with another widescreen soon)

I'm going to wall mount the 19" above the centre screen this coming weekend, I'm getting a sore neck given its current positioning.

Each screen is on a seperate PC. I use Multiplicity in seemless mode - one keyboard to rule them all. All are running Vista except 1. The highest spec PC is 3.2Ghz CPU, 4Gb RAM, 8800 GTX PCIE. The lowest spec PC is P4 2Ghz CPU, 2Gb RAM, 6200 AGP. All but 1 PC can successfully run 3+ copies of WoW on each.

The Girls: I'm currently playing Pally tank, 2 x Mages (Fire), Priest and my wife often tags along with her Hunter. We're currenting reeming the hell out of Hellfire Ramps & BF. At 63 I should be in SP or UB but the hunter is quite a few levels lower and has only just hit Outlands.

The Software: I use Multiplicity accross all PCs. Keyclone and Dragon Naturally Speaking.

Dragon Naturally Speaking: I've only been using Dragon for about 2 weeks, I was trying to use VR Commander but it didn't allow me the flexibility I really wanted. The recent introduction of Dragon has allowed me to COMPLETELY control all the girls. Every mage spell, every Priest spell is voice controlled. Using custom commands I can tell the girls to "turn around" and they turn 180, if the mob has moved behind them. Or "back up" and they move backward for 2 seconds if they are too close.

Before I implemented Dragon I was using 6 keys on my G15 keyboard for each class (Mages, Priest, Hunter) Pally uses 1 through =. Now the Pally uses all the G keys and the girls are all voice controlled. The mages use Alt + Shift + {every key}, the Priest uses Ctrl + Shift {every key} etc... The only downside to they type if keybinding is I can only play them by voice, I can't manually play them if needed. But I've never needed to do that so far.

Voice control has allowed me to focus on tanking and taken a lot of presure off, my game play has become more controled and streamlined. Giving a voice command to start an attack sequence, such as "Salvo One" - Scorch, Scorch, Pyroblast, Fire Blast, Fireball - has reduced the key bashing considerably. But I have been getting more soar throats over the last couple of weeks :)

And that concludes my wall of text - for now.

[Khazrael]

Welcome to the forums man, it's always good to hear from other people and see about their setup (at some point I'll post up mine, haven't really had the time yet though). I've heard people talk about voice recognition software like you mention, but haven't really heard to much from people using it in their setup.

It sounds like it's working out really well, and that's pretty awesome. Makes me want to really check that out, as a keyboard has only so much keys even when you get the add-ons, especially when running 5 separate classes like insane people like me do.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Welcome aboard. :) If you're 63, sounds like things are going well. And always good to have a friend playing with you.

[Fleecy]

Over the years I've attempted to use a number of voice recognition software, some specifically designed for games such as VR Commander (and other I can't think of right now) and others specifically designed for dictation or business tool. I game up trying to use it in games a long time ago it never really worked out well for me. But recently (2 weeks ago) I tried the latest version of some of the better apps and I was surprised at how well it worked. Unfortunately they ALL had a downside. The software that worked best, was very configurable and FREE didn't work on Vista. The software that worked on Vista was reliable and would often incorrectly hear what I said. I tried the Vista built-in speech recognition control but it didn't allow me to write custom controlls (Macros).

My last attempt was to borrow Dragon Naturally Speaking 9.5 from work over the weekend. As this is designed for business use I wasn't expecting this to work well at all. Immediately it worked on Vista without fault, I was able to write custom controls (Macros) and after 15 minutes of training it was recognising almost 100% of the voice commands I gave. The only down side was the speed at which I processed the commands. Unfortunately it took anywhere between 2-5 seconds from hearing the command before it would action it. And when I say "HEAL ME" I expect my priest to heal me immediately. When I tell my priest to "FADE" I don't want her sitting there getting beat on for 5 seconds before she finally fades.

Long story short (if at all possible at this point), after playing around with a number of settings I've been able to reduce the recognition time to 1 - 1.5 seconds. So when I say "D I PRIEST" when I have 500 HPs left it works out well. Also being able to write macros has been a huge bonus. When I say an attack sequence I don't have to worry about the 5 timed spells it casts or when I tell the priest to "COMBAT HEAL ME" I don't have to worry about pressing Shield, Renew, Greater Heal. "FROST TRAP, BACKUP, DISTRACTING SHOT, ASSIST ME, AIMED SHOT, PET ATTACK" is simply "Hunter Salvo One".

Voice control is probably a lazy way to dual box, but its a smart way. And having every spell for all 4 classes available to me allows me greater control.

[Khazrael]

Yeah, I'm much more comfortable with the keyboard really, so for basic stuff like issuing healing commands and attack commands would probably stick on that. The thing I would want something like voice recognition for would be those "oh shit" situations. Like when I'd want to drop a natures swiftness heal, or a pally lay on hands or something that i might not be quick enough to react on my keyboard.

But then again, that doesn't really work out since you say it has a delay, even a second or two is enough to get you killed in those kinds of moments. Might have to still wait and see if anything else comes up in that area.

[Fleecy]

Yep, that 1-2 second delay can be problematic at times, but when I "D I PRIEST" or "LAY OF HANDS" it usually actioned by the time I finish saying it. I actually rely on it for those "oh shit" times. Because I don't have the "oh shit" buttons keybound I have to click a button. With something I don't often use it can take a few seconds to even find the button and then click it. Voice is by far my prefered option.

But my "spam" spells I still key bash. Fireball and Arcane Explosion are the only 2 mage spells I press a button for. Every other spell is voice controlled. Though I do have "EXPLOSION 6" which does 6 Arcane Explosions and Fireball 3 which ofcause casts 3 fireballs. The downside to an attack sequence custom command is that no other voice command is processed until that one is complete. So if I do FIREBALL 3, it has a cast time of lets say 2 seconds x 3. So in that 6 seconds any other voice command I issue is held until the Fireballs are finished.

[EDIT] I just did a few tests, the delay is not as long as I thought. When I said "ICE BLOCK" it was less than 1 second until the mages were on ice. when I said "FADE" it was about 1 second until the priest dropped aggro. "PRIEST USE MANA POTION" was almost instant. It appears the longer the voice command the quicker it is actioning it. When I said "D I PRIEST" and jumped in the air, I had DI'd the priest by the time I hit the ground.

[Mystrana]

Dont want to be a bad sport this dragon speak sounds awesome and all
but isnt it automating the process of combat if you can have the prog
do a cast sequence ? and we all know Blizzard will ban you for
Automating the game as they call it botting .

if not i will be looking into this prog for myself.

[Khazrael]

Dont want to be a bad sport this dragon speak sounds awesome and all
but isnt it automating the process of combat if you can have the prog
do a cast sequence ? and we all know Blizzard will ban you for
Automating the game as they call it botting .

if not i will be looking into this prog for myself.Blizzard very clearly defines what they consider to be botting and automation:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5288579356&postId=52356269828&sid=1#2

I imagine what he's talking about is giving a command which basically executes a macro. While this macro is a cast sequence macro, it still only executes the next cast in the sequence, whereas I think you are interpreting it as though it fires off an entire sequence and goes through everything in it until it completes (this WOULD be automation, but I don't think is what will happen unless I'm misinterpreting also). Since the user still initiates the action, I imagine this would not fall under automation as defined by blizzard, but of course I can only speculate.

In addition, great to hear on the delay man. Definately something worth checking out it seems.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Blizzard won't define a voice command as different from a keyboard keypress or mouse click. Where it will get nailed is if it can queue or delay commands or if it can generate more than one command per WoW with a single input from the user. Consider the following:
"FROST TRAP, BACKUP, DISTRACTING SHOT, ASSIST ME, AIMED SHOT, PET ATTACK" This is OK because it's one action per input.
"Hunter Salvo One". This, if it executes all of the previous commands from only one utterance of a voice command would be considered bannable because it is generating more than one action with a single input.

[Fleecy]

I'll have to screenshot the next conversation I have with a GM over this. Basically the conversation goes like this:

ME: I'm playing WoW by controlling the game with Voice Recognition software. I give a voice command and executes an action or a series of actions.

GM: Can this action or set of actions be performed while you are away from your computer?

Me: No. I have to issue the commands myself. The software does not "play" the game it simply carries out key presses I have told it to perform.

GM: Its ok to use this software.

Its certainly not verbatium, but a BOT, in the eyes of Blizzard, is software that can make decision about game play in the absence of the player. If the player has to issue commands in order for the character to perform an action this is acceptable. I'll have another chat with a GM and this time I'll screen shot the conversation.

And to clarify I say the command "SALVO ONE", Dragon sends a number of different timed key presses. Eg... Fireball [Ctrl+Shift+Q], wait 2 seconds, Pyro Blast[Ctrl+Shift+W], wait 7 seconds, Scorch[Ctrl+Shift+E]. For peace of mind I want to fully clarify this with Blizzard as I may not have been 100% clear with my explination. But in reading Blizzard's responce on the link provided by Khazrael I think this probably falls under the category of automation. I have previously only focused on the BOT issue I was not even considering "automation". This may be an issue, if Blizzard's reply is not favourable I'll return to issuing the commands manually. I will miss "BUFF GROUP" (Fort, Int, Shadow Protection, Kings for everyone, sit and drink).

[Mystrana]

i see what you mean but getting the dragon prog to carry out a
series of key pushes to me is similar to a bot prog , the dif is that
you have to start the sequence by voice.

The in game macros will not alow one push for a full sequence you have
to push the button everytime for the cast sequence to run its coarse.



If you can clarify this with a gm and he still says its ok well im all
for you there but to me its against the eula or tos to have a 3rd party
prog key press for you for every action. Now if you have to say Salvo
One for every action thats like a normal cast sequence macro.



But you say Salvo one and it presses the three buttons in a time delay
which is Automation ergo bannable sorry just the way i see it.

[Fleecy]

My conversation with Blizzard has already determined it is not considered a bot and the use of voice to control the game is "ok". Though the automation question needs to be clarified. It may be that I completely recreate my "salvo one" sequence in-game. And make a standard /castsequence macro in-game. But still be able to issue the voice command "salvo one", but I'l have to say it multiple times.

[Mystrana]

np about bot :) i might put an ingame ticket to get clarification on
the Automation part me self :) if both are good this prog seams like a
great boxing tool :) bit hefty on the price tag for $199 us but might
be worth it :D

[Fleecy]

There are plenty of other voice control apps out there, and there some amazing FREE apps. Some of these apps don't work with Vista and some didn't have a high recognition rate. As I'm running Vista and I have a tendancy to mumble when I speak Dragon is the only software I found that did EVERYTHING I wanted to do via voice control and the accuracy rate is almost 100%. I'm fortunately enough that our work license allows me to use it at home too.

After using voice control (and becoming lazy) I would find it much harder to go back to the old button bashing way. And I certainly would not be able to use EVERY spell for all 4 classes in my group.

I'd love to know the result of your conversation with a GM. I'm unlikely to submit a partition until after work. Though I already feel the way I have some custom commands configured it falls into the automation category.

[Fleecy]

Well here it is. I had that chat with a GM and the automation issue is not a concern. Screen shot included :) Ignore the spelling mistakes and grammaticaly errors I was on the phone to my wife at the time and distracted.

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/4328/agmsaidsoqd1.jpg

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Very cool. Thanks for taking the time to clarify this for us. :thumbup:

[Teq]

Does this mean that we have to redefine 'automation''?

How can the chaining of multiple actions in a (cast)sequence, triggered by a voice command not be a violation, while the same sequence triggered by a single keystroke is?

If I understand your GM conversation correctly and your software use is legal, why are programmable keyboards not? And then where exactly do we draw a line between automation and botting?
I would be very hesitant to use your software untill you get blue approval on the blizzard forum. Sadly screenshots of ingame GM conversations wont be of any real use when you get hit by the banning hammer.

[Fleecy]

Its not a violation because a GM said its not. I'm sorry but I don't understand why you consider a confirmation from a GM (and his supervisor) as false information. Do you not believe it because you think it shouldn't leagal or do you have contrary information from a GM? I don't see the difference between a "chat" with a GM and a blue post on the Blizzard forums.

Programmable keyboards such as a G15 are perfectly within the Blizzard TOS. This has been a moot point for over a year.

[Wilbur]

Heh.

Personally I'd say this is automation.

To clarify.

You use a voice command, which then executes one key combo, delays and then executes a second key combo?

[Fleecy]

You're 100% correct, it sends a key press, waits, send more key presses. And this was discussed with the GM - and his supervisor. They clearly said it was not breaching the policy.

[Teq]

Sorry Fleecy, I dont mean to doubt you or bash the tools that you are using in any way. I doubt the GM and the superviser you spoke to, not you.

While having ingame GM approval of the tools you are using is nice, it is not something you can refer to should issues arise for you in the future with another GM (which will happen as you are bound to be reported/investigated over and over :( ).
A blue conformation on a blizzard forum is more suited for this.


You're 100% correct, it sends a key press, waits, send more key presses. And this was discussed with the GM - and his supervisor. They clearly said it was not breaching the policy.

While your GM might approve of this, Others have not been so lucky and have had their accounts suspended oer this. Seeing how delicate the automation/botting issue is for multiboxers, i would realy not risk your accounts with anything less then a blue forum post... and even then you are walking on thin ice. ;)

[Fleecy]

I see my next job is to get a blue post on the forums :)

[edit] Forum post - check. Blizzard's reply - waiting.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5720292152&postId=57196974695&sid=1#0

[Skuggomann]

lol gool GM, but im not sure that the Gm got it that you say one thing and the program does 3.

[Mirone]

I have to say i think you are in danger of getting banned for what you are doing fleecy, even unitentionally. You are automating the process and if you get a gm in a bad mood then that's you in trouble. As for your conversation with the gm - you didn't make it clear to them exactly what you are doing with your salvo 1 command. it looks like you are just sending 3 commands to 3 seperate chars which is allowed rather than commands to 1 char with time delays.

I could be wrong but I think it's unclear so I'd advise erring on the side of caution until this is cleared up.

[Fleecy]

Ok, its been confirmed by "blue" on the forums.

The automation part of Dragon is not allowed. But Dragon itself should be fine. As long as you are not performing any more than the standard WoW macro system is capable of.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5720292152&sid=1&pageNo=2

[Wilbur]

Cheers for clearing this up Fleecy :-)

Previous experience with GMs led me to believe that he simply hadn't understood properly what you meant.

Generally speaking its agreed upon that as long as 1 key-press/command only results in a single keypress being sent to WoW, its acceptable.

[Hotnutz]

And to clarify I say the command "SALVO ONE", Dragon sends a number of different timed key presses. Eg... Fireball [Ctrl+Shift+Q], wait 2 seconds, Pyro Blast[Ctrl+Shift+W], wait 7 seconds, Scorch[Ctrl+Shift+E]. For peace of mind I want to fully clarify this with Blizzard as I may not have been 100% clear with my explination. But in reading Blizzard's responce on the link provided by Khazrael I think this probably falls under the category of automation. I have previously only focused on the BOT issue I was not even considering "automation". This may be an issue, if Blizzard's reply is not favourable I'll return to issuing the commands manually. I will miss "BUFF GROUP" (Fort, Int, Shadow Protection, Kings for everyone, sit and drink).

The delay in key presses is automation period. Your conversation with the GM does not specify the time delay. This is what people were doing with the G15 to get banned.

[Vyndree]

There is much truthiness in this thread.

Delays and timers are absolutely NOT acceptable as per previous discussions with Blizzard. It would be considered a very primitive form of automation, but automation none the less. Any macro that can be duplicated in-game (via the in-game /macro system) would be acceptable.

I also believe you might have been the one to start this official forum thread ('http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5720292152&pageNo=2&sid=1#25') (edit: I need to read more carefully) which I've added the blue posts to the GM Conversations Wiki Page ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/wiki/index.php/GM_Conversations#Regarding_Delays_.26_Timers_in_ou t-of-game_Macros') for clarity. :) It's an awesome blue explanation for those curious.

In any case, I'm glad you were able to clarify this before getting too attached to your complex macros. :) I wouldn't want you to get in trouble for a misunderstanding on the part of the in-game GM. I always go straight for the customer service forum for answers as they are always very careful about what they say and careful about understanding the situation since the forums get a large amount of views from the entire playerbase.

[Skuggomann]

Downloading the drogram as we speak XD gona se what this baby can do :P