Drone assist for vanguard incursion sites?

[gomeler]

While I thought I'd quit EVE with the jan 1st changes, I'm still plinking away with things, using capital escalations to pay for the accounts. While blapping sleepless guardians, it got me thinking, could a drone assist comp work for vanguards? I know Nightmares seem to be the ideal choice for maximum blap, but curious if anyone has used heavies or sentries in vanguards, and if the Sansha target them.

Was thinking 6 shield Ishtars w/ Gardes/Ogres, a double web huginn, and 3 logi pilots as a start. With all the frigates, I'm not expecting fast clear times, but it would be something I could casually do when there are no w-space things to do.

Thoughts? Just want to avoid doing some sort of rollover/round-robin setup to lock/fire with nightmare pilots.

[Mosg2]

I imagine Rattlesnakes with Geckos would do really well.

[bugme143]

I used to use 7 Rattlesnakes + Gardes, two Basis, and a Huginn / Loki for VGs, and it went decently.
If you use the Huginn, you need a LSE and you need to keep transversal against any Deltoles that spawn as they can insta-blap you.
Loki can just rig + dc2 tank with a 3web 2painter setup.

http://puu.sh/c1fRi.png My old setup, before I re-arranged a few things.

The basis were 4/2 setup FYI. I had all my videoFX on my primary toon (the webber), and I was able to quickly switch logi targets without leaving my primary toon's screen.
Rattlers were 2 invuln + EM fit with everything else dedicated to drone damage or range.
Loki was 3web 2painter, 1 dc2, and the rest of the lows were occupied by Signal Amplifiers. Highslots were a handful of civilian guns and a tractor beam.

I imagine the Ishtars might do well, but IMO I'd try out a set of Gilas w/ Hammerheads on the test server before Ishtars. LordsServant can attest to the Gila's firepower.

[Tool of Society]

I use gardes and sansha does sometimes target them but I only lose a few over the course of a night which isn't a problem as t2 gardes are fairly cheap and I can carry many spares in the drone bays. I don't use round robin or rollovers. My site times can vary wildly depending on how hard I play (7-10 min ticks).

You will lose more mediums though as they seem to be targeted at a higher rate. Overall it's not a big deal as the gila can hold extras. The gila is quite good and I imagine the ishtar wouldn't be much of an upgrade.

[gomeler]

Thanks for all the responses. Firing up Sisi and plan on giving the rattlesnake/basi combo a whirl. It would be almost exactly what I used to run, so it'll be simple.

[Tool of Society]

I was sad to have to put down my 9 NMs :(


Are the rattlesnake people using anything in the highs?

[bugme143]

I was sad to have to put down my 9 NMs :(
Are the rattlesnake people using anything in the highs?
3x Drone Link Augmentor I

But I used 3x Drone Scope rigs because they weren't patched back then, so 100km Garde optimal? Don't mind if I do.

[gomeler]

Just about to get started on Sisi, I'm not putting anything in the highs even though the pilots have really good missile skills. Used to use cruises in the highs, a paint on each snake in the mids, and 3x bcs/dda in the lows and stomped sleepers with them. Can't be arsed to lock up targets and fire turrets now without resorting to a rollover or round-robin setup that I fear will get me banned.

[bugme143]

Just about to get started on Sisi, I'm not putting anything in the highs even though the pilots have really good missile skills. Used to use cruises in the highs, a paint on each snake in the mids, and 3x bcs/dda in the lows and stomped sleepers with them. Can't be arsed to lock up targets and fire turrets now without resorting to a rollover or round-robin setup that I fear will get me banned.
5x Cruise Missile Launchers w/ Auto Targeting Cruise Missiles + Drone Link AUg

[gomeler]

Just completed a Nation Commander Outpost in 22 minutes. Those jams were hilarious, almost lost a basi. While I know I'm excited because this is a new experience, I could see this being a fun challenge for the next couple of weeks.


5x Cruise Missile Launchers w/ Auto Targeting Cruise Missiles + Drone Link AUg

Ooh.. I didn't even think of auto targeting missiles. That's hilarious, how do they perform or are you just theorycrafting it? I'll have to give that whirl.

edit: correction, 22 minutes for the NCO. I spend most of my time missing frigates with the gardes. I fit 3 omnis but I put two range script and only 1 tracking script. Going to tinker with the fit, go triple tracking scripts and faction webs on the Loki to get a little more web range. Haven't tried an OTA or NMC yet, NMC seems straight forward with the ore, not sure how I'll handle the hacking for the OTA. Guessing one of my logi pilots will lose a mid to fit a hacker.

[bugme143]

Just completed a Nation Commander Outpost in 22 minutes. Those jams were hilarious, almost lost a basi. While I know I'm excited because this is a new experience, I could see this being a fun challenge for the next couple of weeks.
Ooh.. I didn't even think of auto targeting missiles. That's hilarious, how do they perform or are you just theorycrafting it? I'll have to give that whirl.

edit: correction, 22 minutes for the NCO. I spend most of my time missing frigates with the gardes. I fit 3 omnis but I put two range script and only 1 tracking script. Going to tinker with the fit, go triple tracking scripts and faction webs on the Loki to get a little more web range. Haven't tried an OTA or NMC yet, NMC seems straight forward with the ore, not sure how I'll handle the hacking for the OTA. Guessing one of my logi pilots will lose a mid to fit a hacker.

I was theorycrafting the missiles. From what people tell me, FoF is still shite and on the same level as Defenders.
I lost a painter on my Loki for a hacking module myself, but you can alpha past the reps of any frigate, most of the cruisers, and the Deltole won't be too difficult.

My old fit:

[Rattlesnake, Fleet]

Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II


Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link, Optimal Range Script
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link, Optimal Range Script
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link, Optimal Range Script
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link, Optimal Range Script
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Amplifier II


Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]


Large Drone Scope Chip I
Large Drone Scope Chip I
Large Drone Scope Chip I


Garde II x5
Which gave me 100km optimal or so with Gardes. However, CCP recently fixed the Scope rigs, so my new fit would be something like this:

[Rattlesnake, Fleet]

Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II


Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link, Optimal Range Script
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link, Optimal Range Script
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link, Tracking Speed Script
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link, Tracking Speed Script
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Amplifier II


Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]


Large Drone Scope Chip II
Large Drone Scope Chip II
Large Drone Scope Chip II


Garde II x2

Which gives me 50+30.4km Gardes and 87.6+20.2km Curators.
748 DPS Gardes
704 DPS Curators

[gomeler]

Since I've only run one of the three sites, is that much optimal needed for one of the particular sites?

[bugme143]

Since I've only run one of the three sites, is that much optimal needed for one of the particular sites?
OTA's spawn around 100km or so from where I parked my fleet.
NMCs are around 75ish from warp-in on one of the spawns.
NCOs are 40ish and closer.

It's player preference really, but I liked being able to snipe out Niarjas at 100km in the OTAs. It's been a while, so my pre-Scope nerfed RS may have had more tracking speed scripts than I remember.

[Tool of Society]

My setup is totally different from y'alls. I don't have the skills to do snakes right now since I had optimized for armor NMS t2 guns on four of my dps. I originally started running 3 years ago with a substantially different and smaller fleet. So four of the characters are only a little over a year old or less. Took me finding isboxer before I graduated up to NMs with a nestor.

I only use two faction TPs and two faction Webs for my fleet right now and it's "good enough" if not on the low end of what I would prefer. I'm working on reskilling for a more optimal setup.

Rolling with gardes at 45 km optimal.

[gomeler]

Some observations:

Ran a pair of OTAs and a pair of NCOs in ~50 minutes. I'm finding that raw DPS is less of an issue, and switching targets + slowing things down with sufficient webs to blap the frigates to be more of an issue. Unfortunately, my Loki pilot has terrible paint skills, perhaps paints would help a bit, or fitting four webs. It seems to take 2 cycles of 2 webs to sufficiently slow down a frigate so that gardes w/ 3x omnis w/ tracking scripts can blap them. Then I spend 1-5s waiting on the webs to cycle before I can get going on the next frigate.

Briefly tried ogres, that was terrible with drone travel taking longer than the 2x web cycles.

In the OTAs, I was typically able to lock/blap the niarjahs before they jammed a ship. Sometimes they would jam the logi, mostly it was a random rattlesnake. Otherwise all the ships closed so fast that I never needed to switch from tracking to range scripts.

Going to try again tomorrow, dropping the adaptive on the Loki for a 4th web. Going to be pretty low on tank, but the Loki did only get hit once and it was orbiting the beacon and tanking very easily.

So far, Vanguards seem to be loads easier to setup/secure than c5 sites/escalations. The ISK is maybe 2/3 of what I'd typically earn, but it's safe and requires minimal prep work and no salvage/loot collection.

Final conclusion is that Vanguards are broken ISK faucets, and I'm going to run them until CCP makes it not possible.

Going to see how the four web shield Loki works. If that works well, I'll wait until I've got Ishtars trained up and give those a whirl + consider going armor. Would give the Loki more buffer, I could use 2x Nestor instead of 3x Basi, I could go triple omni armor Ishtars, and the DPS output would actually go with by gaining another DPS pilot + Nestors.

[bugme143]

Remember, after 3 modules the stacking penalties grow at a significant rate. I sorta stole my loki fit/concept from wormholes with the 3/2 setup. You can't really pre-web stuff sadly without drone aggro going wonky.

[gomeler]

Remember, after 3 modules the stacking penalties grow at a significant rate. I sorta stole my loki fit/concept from wormholes with the 3/2 setup. You can't really pre-web stuff sadly without drone aggro going wonky.

Yup, but the idea is to double web one thing and immediately double web the second target the moment the first is dead. It'll cut a couple of seconds per target, which adds up given how many targets there are.

Wish Vindicators got some sort of web range bonus, 15km faction webs aren't enough sadly. I imagine Vindi webs @ ~25km would help considerably, as the 1st sentry cycle is typically a miss and the 2nd and 3rd are what hit. Vindi webs might slow stuff down fast enough that the 1st cycle is a partial hit and the 2nd kills.

Anywho, going to play with the quad web Loki tonight, we'll see how that goes. Just hoping I can get the clear + warp times down to ~10 minutes, would yield very nice ISK/hr and ISK/effort.

[bugme143]

Sentries cycle every 4 seconds.

[Tool of Society]

Running today with my upgraded drone skilled stuff. 10 minute ticks are super easy to achieve.

I tried to record me run with vlc but it started raping my system badly by the last wave and it appears it had already crashed.


Any suggestions for screen recording?

[gomeler]

Sentries cycle every 4 seconds.

Yup, and they seem to lock the frigates in about ~3-5s. So, it usually goes webs apply and complete one cycle by the time sentries have done their first salvo. That one is hit or miss, the remainder are usually solid salvos.


Running today with my upgraded drone skilled stuff. 10 minute ticks are super easy to achieve.

I tried to record me run with vlc but it started raping my system badly by the last wave and it appears it had already crashed.

What's your setup? Above you mentioned you were running nightmares, is that still the case?

[Tool of Society]

I did 9 nm 1 nestor as my last setup but that ended jan 1st.

I run 7 domis 1 paladin ddd and two nestors with an ore dropper and an astarte booster.


For some odd reason innerspace forgot several of my Videofx viewer windows and moved the corresponding videofx source windows to left 50 pixels since I last ran incursions a week or so ago. Windows in game also moved for no known reason. Lovely stuff.

[gomeler]

I did 9 nm 1 nestor as my last setup but that ended jan 1st.

I run 7 domis 1 paladin ddd and two nestors with an ore dropper and an astarte booster.


For some odd reason innerspace forgot several of my Videofx viewer windows and moved the corresponding videofx source windows to left 50 pixels since I last ran incursions a week or so ago. Windows in game also moved for no known reason. Lovely stuff.

Huh, even shield domis might be an improvement over rattlesnakes with the hull tracking bonus. Any reason for the paladin as drone bunny, and does the lack of web range bonus hurt? I'm guessing you're running links to boost the web range?

[Tool of Society]

shield? god no..

3x tracking 2x optimal omnis in mid.

The problem is I can't fly any of the other marauders so I had to use the paladin. Bastion mode makes you immune to the jams. I've been playing around with some odd ideas to fix that but for now skills are my problem. It'd take a while to get my dps into snakes so I basically just swapped my dps out and kept the rest the same.

Webs are 20.2 KM range so it's sort of annoying but not too awful. I can pop stuff with just the TPs till web range usually.

Booster is absolutely perfect (all V including fleet commander) with damage control, passive defense, rapid repair, interdiction maneuvers. I've had both loyalanna/wolf and some goons try to gank my fleets in the past so I brick tanked the booster which forced me to minimize the boost links.


I'm in game if you want to chat or something.

[gomeler]

shield? god no..

3x tracking 2x optimal omnis in mid.

The problem is I can't fly any of the other marauders so I had to use the paladin. I've been playing around with some odd ideas to fix that but for now skills are my problem. It'd take a while to get my dps into snakes so I basically just swapped my dps out and kept the rest the same.

Webs are 20.2 KM range so it's sort of annoying but not too awful. I can pop stuff with just the TPs till web range usually.

Booster is absolutely perfect (all V including fleet commander) with damage control, passive defense, rapid repair, interdiction maneuvers. I've had both loyalanna/wolf and some goons try to gank my fleets in the past so I brick tanked the booster which forced me to minimize the boost links.

Was talking for myself on the shield domi part. Playing with it in EFT, shield Domi might work. Slightly less tank, slightly better garde tracking, slightly cheaper. Will fiddle with it tomorrow. 4 web Loki was an improvement, the tank buffer loss wasn't too bad. Just need to keep it orbiting something and it sheds some of the damage.

Armor makes more sense, and I'm moving that way just to free up the mids for Omnis.

[Tool of Society]

Was talking for myself on the shield domi part. Playing with it in EFT, shield Domi might work. Slightly less tank, slightly better garde tracking, slightly cheaper. Will fiddle with it tomorrow. 4 web Loki was an improvement, the tank buffer loss wasn't too bad. Just need to keep it orbiting something and it sheds some of the damage.

Armor makes more sense, and I'm moving that way just to free up the mids for Omnis.I had a friendly contest with a gila boxer today in an OTA. I won because he just couldn't match the instant dps of the gardes as stuff was MWDing in.

That said his times aren't far behind mine. He does some funky stuff but it works and it's quite a sight to behold (definitely cooler looking then my setup).

Beware that my setup requires a ton of concentration and perfect rotational activations and such to reach sub 8 minute ticks (OTA only). Way more involved than the nm setup.

[LordsServant]

Why sentries tho?

[Ishtar, incursions]
Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane


Federation Navy Drone Navigation Computer
Federation Navy Drone Navigation Computer
Federation Navy Drone Navigation Computer
Federation Navy Drone Navigation Computer
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script


Black Eagle Drone Link Augmentor
Black Eagle Drone Link Augmentor
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]


Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump II


'Augmented' Berserker x5



That pushes 750 dps with drones that move 7400 m/s and track at 1.1.

I don't personally know how the EHP would hold up (meh resists, 60k ehp under links), but drone travel time would be almost negligable, and you'd probably speed things up quite a bit with your heavies instablapping frigs without issue - no webs required.

If you can bring skirmish links, your sig drops pretty low so you can start sig tanking. Additionally - Halos are very cheap for a pirate implant set, and would further reduce your sig letting you tank even better.

Alternatively, a proper Slave + Hardwirings set gives you 95k ehp, for a bit more buffer against high volley waves.

You lost the instant dps vs contests, but I can't imagine it being that horrible once you catch up, and your completion times might speed up with the frigate factor.

[Tool of Society]

Why?

Because the train time was a tiny fraction of what you're suggesting (pretty much non existent for my NM pilots)? It would take at least 45 days for me to even get all the dps into the ishtar and additional time to actually get the skills up to a decent point. The Domi's EHP is better so while I'm assigning drones I don't have to worry about stuff getting nearly one shot? Let alone the random gank attempts I've had over the years. I like being able to run when the influence isn't 0%? The cost of replacement for my domi's is a fraction of what your ishtars cost? I don't want a billion isk in implants per character? I don't want to tie my fleet to a ship that has a hull bonus that will very likely be nerfed due to the mob mentality on the eve forums? My domis do about 1083 dps with about 792 coming from the drones. Have you ever used heavies in VGs?

I didn't lose anything and I'm pretty convinced you just scanned my post without actually reading it..

Your 7400 m/s drones are going to miss galore till they slow down. Even the gila user which had medium drones has issues with the first volley or two missing due to MWD.

[bugme143]

Lords, this is incursions, not WH space. While incursion AI was stolen from sleepers, it was hit over the head with a two-by-four repeatedly to dumb it down.

[LordsServant]

Why?

Because the train time was a tiny fraction of what you're suggesting (pretty much non existent for my NM pilots)? It would take at least 45 days for me to even get all the dps into the ishtar and additional time to actually get the skills up to a decent point. The Domi's EHP is better so while I'm assigning drones I don't have to worry about stuff getting nearly one shot? Let alone the random gank attempts I've had over the years. I like being able to run when the influence isn't 0%? The cost of replacement for my domi's is a fraction of what your ishtars cost? I don't want a billion isk in implants per character? I don't want to tie my fleet to a ship that has a hull bonus that will very likely be nerfed due to the mob mentality on the eve forums? My domis do about 1083 dps with about 792 coming from the drones. Have you ever used heavies in VGs?

I didn't lose anything and I'm pretty convinced you just scanned my post without actually reading it..

Your 7400 m/s drones are going to miss galore till they slow down. Even the gila user which had medium drones has issues with the first volley or two missing due to MWD.

Training time is just as much - sentries require the same amount of training that heavy drones do since the drone change. If your complaint is the ishtar, you can easily use the vexor navy as a cheaper (and slightly worse) alternative, which requires much less training than the dominix. It also boasts a superior tank to the ishtar.

Replacement cost? Are you actually trying to insinuate that your domis are going to be insured? That's the only difference in replacement cost between the two ships, and unless you're truly terrible you shouldn't be losing your entire domi fleet before insurance runs out.

The hull bonus on ishtars is twofold - there is one set of bonuses pertaining to sentries, and another entirely different set pertaining to heavies. The one folks are complaining about - sentry tracking and range - is entirely separate from the heavy drone speed and heavy drone tracking, which have remained untouched. There are several calls, in fact, to push the ishtar into being exclusively a Heavy boat, with it's bonuses to sentries removed. Do your research.

The discussion here seems to be entirely based around drones, with gomeler specifically stating that with the changes to isboxer he can't be bothered to click like a madman to use guns, or risk getting banned for using various techniques which appear to be in the new grey area with CCP.

I don't do incursions, but I know all there is to know about weapons and their application to various targets; I speak from pvp experience so I don't know 100% about how things work in incursions specifically.

The gila has no tracking bonus - these heavies would track significantly better than his drones would. There would be no issues for damage application.

My only thought in regards to your post?

I'm pretty convinced you just scanned my post without actually reading it..

Or maybe you just have a limited grasp on game mechanics and various weapons systems. vOv

[Tool of Society]

The ishtar hull alone is 40 days of training bub..

I was already training into sentries because I was using them with my NMs as extra turrets.

I don't insure domis but I can basically fit out two domis for the cost of one of your EANMs. I have had multiple gank attempts on my fleet in the last year. Even my booster was hit by a gaggle of catas.

As for the hull bonuses... Do you really believe that CCP is that deft? I mean come on you've surely played long enough to know how CCP handles balance like that. I would be surprised if they only hit the sentry side of things. God knows it would be the smart thing to do.

You admit you don't run incursions but yet you declare I should take your word as the absolute truth. Well here's the truth I run incursions currently and I've got experience with mediums and sentries. The mediums miss like a dickens till they settle in and I can't imagine that the heavies would be any better. THe mediums also get shot more often. Meanwhile my sentries hit well from 70 KM up till orbit. Only when the frigates get into orbit do I need a web to hit them well and by that point I'm either on the cruisers or nearly on to them.

Your last comment only deserves a HERP A DERP I R SO L337!!


EDIT : The Ishtar was actually my original end game goal but the financial and training costs is keeping me from doing so in the foreseeable future.

[bugme143]

Both of you calm down. We gain nothing from bickering like children amongst ourselves.

[EaTCarbS]

So you used to use nightmares, but use cost as a point against ishtars.... :D

wat

[gomeler]

So you used to use nightmares, but use cost as a point against ishtars.... :D

wat

It is kind of warranted though. Pre-broadcast nerf, Nightmares were THE boat to use. Superior tracking/alpha, great buffer, they were ideal for a Vanguard multiboxer and they warranted the price. Now however, in my opinion at least, drone assist is the solution. Domi vs Ishtar, I've only EFT'd it, but armor Domi looks to be a great contender for 'new hot shit' for Vanguards, and it costs less than an Ishtar, has more buffer, has almost equal tracking, with really the only downside being warp/align speed.

Having now run ~20 Vanguard sites, I've noticed that DPS is not important. Application is WAY more important. I have no doubts that heavy drones would work with the correct setup. However, because the travel time is greater than 0s, and there are 25+ frigates per site, AND they don't orbit nearly as tightly as sleeper frigates, your heavies are going to be MWD'ing all over the place and taking up time. In sleeper sites, Ogres were amazing, as they rarely had to MWD as the frigates were typically within optimal.

Because there are so many low EHP targets, it in my opinion makes more sense to go sentries, even if half of them are missing due to transversal. I end up killing a frigate every ~12 seconds(sentry lock + 2 salvo) and now with the 4 web Loki, I immediately double web the second target and it also dies in ~12 seconds.

Now I want to try armor Domis, as the tracking goes from ~0.075 on my rattlesnakes to something like 0.103 or so. If it means occasionally I one-shot a frigate, that'll speed up clear times. With my skills it is a slight paper DPS drop, but application should go up.

Going to keep running with the Rattlesnakes for a little while longer, I want to get comfortable with all the sites and it is nice having ~180k EHP of buffer :cool:

[LordsServant]

It is kind of warranted though. Pre-broadcast nerf, Nightmares were THE boat to use. Superior tracking/alpha, great buffer, they were ideal for a Vanguard multiboxer and they warranted the price. Now however, in my opinion at least, drone assist is the solution. Domi vs Ishtar, I've only EFT'd it, but armor Domi looks to be a great contender for 'new hot shit' for Vanguards, and it costs less than an Ishtar, has more buffer, has almost equal tracking, with really the only downside being warp/align speed.

Having now run ~20 Vanguard sites, I've noticed that DPS is not important. Application is WAY more important. I have no doubts that heavy drones would work with the correct setup. However, because the travel time is greater than 0s, and there are 25+ frigates per site, AND they don't orbit nearly as tightly as sleeper frigates, your heavies are going to be MWD'ing all over the place and taking up time. In sleeper sites, Ogres were amazing, as they rarely had to MWD as the frigates were typically within optimal.

Because there are so many low EHP targets, it in my opinion makes more sense to go sentries, even if half of them are missing due to transversal. I end up killing a frigate every ~12 seconds(sentry lock + 2 salvo) and now with the 4 web Loki, I immediately double web the second target and it also dies in ~12 seconds.

Now I want to try armor Domis, as the tracking goes from ~0.075 on my rattlesnakes to something like 0.103 or so. If it means occasionally I one-shot a frigate, that'll speed up clear times. With my skills it is a slight paper DPS drop, but application should go up.

Going to keep running with the Rattlesnakes for a little while longer, I want to get comfortable with all the sites and it is nice having ~180k EHP of buffer :cool:

7400m/s x 12s = ~76km or so.

If application is the #1 thing in sites, then you're gonna want heavies. The heavies don't require webs to hit anything, and will be oneshotting things. If you're taking 12s to kill frigs, the heavies will easily beat that 2:1.

-You don't have to web anything (less attention paid, just trigger the drones with w.e)
-You can use a marauder to trigger, being ecm-proof you never get jammed for even the slightest loss of efficiency
-Allows you to pre-align next site for faster completion time
-No "aw fuck I got bumped out of range of mah sentries"
-Looks cooler :cool:

If Nightmares were THE thing to use back then, then I'm asserting Ishtars/VNIs might be THE thing to use now, if what everyone in here is saying is true.

[Vexor Navy Issue, incursions]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier


Federation Navy Drone Navigation Computer
Federation Navy Drone Navigation Computer
Federation Navy Drone Navigation Computer
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link, Tracking Speed Script


Black Eagle Drone Link Augmentor
Black Eagle Drone Link Augmentor
Black Eagle Drone Link Augmentor
[empty high slot]


Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump II


'Augmented' Berserker x5

+ehp
+ much lower sig
-drone speed
-drone tracking
+drone range (not that it really matters, 1km)

[EaTCarbS]

Black Eagle Drone Link Augmentor
Black Eagle Drone Link Augmentor
Black Eagle Drone Link Augmentor


gotta get that extra 2km control range for 160x the cost. It will really make a difference. /s

[Tool of Society]

So you used to use nightmares, but use cost as a point against ishtars.... :D

watMy nightmares were under 1.5b each fully fitted with cost of hull. A proper Ishtar has an EANM that is about 1b on it's own. Unfortunately that EANM is about the only way to keep up the tank without killing the dps :( I've already played around heavily with various ishtars, gilas and VNIs in EFT. The original plan was to go VNI or gila and then move to Ishtars. I ended up going domi because my DPS were basically already pretrained for it. All I had to do was train gallente BS on 4 of them. Domis are dirt cheap and with that large buffer I can assign drones quickly without taking breaks to setup reps. Although I try to gain aggro on the paladin first so I can just basically AFK reps for the first wave. I consider my domis disposable but the ishtars wouldn't be. When you end up moving around a lot due to rage pops it's hard to resist the urge to AP some of them. Right now I can AP the domis with 200k ehp and laugh if someone tries to gank one. Cause I can easily replace it.

I'm not even arguing against Ishtars or that setup in general. I'm just trying to answer his question why I went sentry for now.

I think once you get the skills and the bling the ishtar setup could be the new NM setup.

The buffer on snakes looks really nice. You can get geckos moving at a quick pace too if you want. Once again snakes were something I looked at but low skills kept me from using them :(



I have never left a sentry behind despite having run this setup for over a month (I click through spamming shift+R for drone retrieval). I have lost a few to NPCs though. The gila pilot has lost quite a few to NPCs. I know that my tests with some snakes the gecko kept getting blapped quite a bit. So I'm curious how well the heavies would last with the ishtars.

Drone trigger is super easy for me which is why I use the guns on my domis to push DPS close to 1100 each. Even without webs I've killed augas with pure turrets while picking off the frigates with the drones.

Sentries actually hit better then my old tachmares and about the same as the pulsemare version.

I can't argue against the looks cooler aspect though. There's no doubt the domi setup is pure ugly.

[shadowandlight]

we need some hard numbers to settle this

run a few sites and plug in your combat log into here

http://evelog.mikk36.eu/

look in (windows vista - 7 - 8)

C:\Users\user \Documents\EVE\logs\Gamelogs

[LordsServant]

gotta get that extra 2km control range for 160x the cost. It will really make a difference. /s

They were for fitting(cpu). The VNI I think I just reflex fit them because I was anticipating CPU issues. Spent a lot less time on VNI setup.

@Shadow - I don't run incursions, as gomeler pointed out - wormholes actually make more isk. I also don't like being forced to choose between pvp and pve. If I wanted to dedicate fully to PVE, I'd probably go run fully escalated sites in a c5/c6 with capitals.

I'm not saying I'm 100% right with this incursion stuff, but from what people are saying, and from what I know of game mechanics, and from the few times I've bothered to run incursions out of curiosity, I figure the idea might be right.

If someone else wants to test it (it sounds like a few people might have skills for it), even with the VNIs, I imagine it shouldn't be too hard. You don't need a-type eanms, I'm just figuring for arguments sake we're talking about 98% risk free bearing, so blinging it up is nbd.

As far as moving stuff, its not hard to AP everything to the next focus. Just load up all the supershiny shit into a covert hauler and burn that over yourself before you start running. 20-30 jumps is super fast in a covops hauler.

[Tool of Society]

The covert hauler would then have to turn around back the 20 jumps to grab it's ship and then another 20 back :P

I stick to MWD orcas for that frankly. 10s align 338k ehp and 400 m/s burn to gate if someone actually bumps me. Bonus points that the orca can carry a lot of ore for you too.



we need some hard numbers to settle this

run a few sites and plug in your combat log into here

http://evelog.mikk36.eu/

look in (windows vista - 7 - 8)

C:\Users\user \Documents\EVE\logs\GamelogsThat is absolutely amazing thank you. I've been comparing and the gardes do indeed hit at a better rate than the NMs with pulse. The pulsemares had 9 TPs and 9 webs too :P


I definitely would rather be doing c5/6

[bugme143]

That is absolutely amazing thank you. I've been comparing and the gardes do indeed hit at a better rate than the NMs with pulse. The pulsemares had 9 TPs and 9 webs too :P
I definitely would rather be doing c5/6
Then you gotta worry about fueling the tower, and keeping scouts on exits, etc.

[gomeler]

Like I said earlier, the frigates in Vanguard sites do not orbit you at 6km. They're usually orbiting me anywhere from 5km to 15km depending on which ship they are orbiting. I think you're going to end up with heavies MWDing all over the place, throwing off their tracking. With heavies, you are also going to miss the opportunity to alpha the Niarja and Sansha Commander, which makes life dramatically simpler.

I've only got heavy drone I, as I never used them for primary DPS, just frigate clearing. I could try them out once I have my pilots sitting in armor tanked Domis. Ishtars would be ideal, but I'm still ~25d away from that. For the next week or so I don't plan on doing anything, just grinding some ISK and checking the behavior

edit: that combat log processor is awesome.

[Tool of Society]

Then you gotta worry about fueling the tower, and keeping scouts on exits, etc.Yeah last time I did that some time ago I had a WH corp backing me up. Made it a lot easier.

[Mosg2]

http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/52002-Post-EULA-Change-EvE-Multiboxing

Drone assist takes a few minutes to setup but is certainly more time efficient than managing locking and firing across all your toons.

Also, sigh@max 50 drones assigned :/

Changed link from direct YouTube link to your video thread so that people can discuss what's happening in your video thread rather than potentially derail these other threads.
-MiRai

[bugme143]

http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/52002-Post-EULA-Change-EvE-Multiboxing

Drone assist takes a few minutes to setup but is certainly more time efficient than managing locking and firing across all your toons.

Also, sigh@max 50 drones assigned :/

>Armor Rattlesnakes
Interesting. Glad to see another video from you.

[shadowandlight]

http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/52002-Post-EULA-Change-EvE-Multiboxing

Drone assist takes a few minutes to setup but is certainly more time efficient than managing locking and firing across all your toons.

Also, sigh@max 50 drones assigned :/

can you grab your damage logs and load them here - http://evelog.mikk36.eu/ ?

Love to what damage your projecting

[Mosg2]

My Heavy setup has 14 Rattlesnakes setup like this:

[Rattlesnake, Test]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Corpum A-Type Energized Explosive Membrane
Corelum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Drone Navigation Computer II
Drone Navigation Computer II
Drone Navigation Computer II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script

'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Inferno Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Inferno Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Inferno Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Inferno Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Gecko x1

And my Sentry setup has 14 Rattlesnakes setup like this:

[Rattlesnake, Test]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Corpum A-Type Energized Explosive Membrane
Corelum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script

'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Inferno Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Inferno Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Inferno Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Inferno Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Garde II x2

I overtanked because I'm paranoid, but I'd like to drop an armor plate and add another DDA. I only have Gallente Battleship 3 and Drone Interfacing 4, so there's some free damage to pickup there. The damage log only picked up like a third of the toons; I'm not sure why.

My Nestors all run 2 Geckos, 2 Hammerheads, and 1 Hobgoblin. With four of'em, you can see that they demolish the stuff the Sentries have a hard time hitting.

I forgot, I don't know how much LP I'm getting, so I haven't factored that into the ISK/time/toon equation.

[Mosg2]

Target
Total damage
Average damage
Hits
Misses
Hit %


Gecko


Antem Neo
92322
383.1
230
11
95%


Arnon Epithalamus
38635
666.1
54
4
93%


Auga Hypophysis
45389
890
48
3
94%


Deltole Tegmentum
277950
658.6
416
6
99%


Eystur Rhomben
4920
307.5
7
9
44%


Intaki Colliculus
246171
697.4
347
6
98%


Mara Paleo
19764
308.8
47
17
73%


Niarja Myelen
7414
218.1
12
22
35%


Ostingele Tectum
236664
602.2
390
3
99%


Renyn Meten
4842
100.9
6
42
12%


Romi Thalamus
587413
620.3
879
68
93%


Schmaeel Medulla
53836
253.9
98
114
46%


Slave 32152
53005
670.9
79
0
100%


Slave Tama01
52792
659.9
80
0
100%


Yulai Crus Cerebi
185668
649.2
276
10
97%


Federation Navy Hobgoblin


Antem Neo
3497
29.1
118
2
98%


Arnon Epithalamus
740
37
20
0
100%


Auga Hypophysis
1004
62.8
16
0
100%


Deltole Tegmentum
5224
45.4
114
1
99%


Eystur Rhomben
223
44.6
5
0
100%


Intaki Colliculus
4922
48.7
101
0
100%


Mara Paleo
892
27.9
32
0
100%


Niarja Myelen
941
94.1
10
0
100%


Ostingele Tectum
4716
42.5
111
0
100%


Renyn Meten
370
33.6
10
1
91%


Romi Thalamus
13694
45
304
0
100%


Schmaeel Medulla
5927
65.1
87
4
96%


Slave 32152
1152
52.4
22
0
100%


Slave Tama01
892
42.5
21
0
100%


Yulai Crus Cerebi
8228
53.8
151
2
99%


Federation Navy Hammerhead


Antem Neo
7959
47.9
161
5
97%


Arnon Epithalamus
1099
57.8
19
0
100%


Auga Hypophysis
3027
104.4
29
0
100%


Deltole Tegmentum
16144
80.7
199
1
99%


Eystur Rhomben
364
121.3
3
0
100%


Intaki Colliculus
12825
75
167
4
98%


Mara Paleo
1132
32.3
28
7
80%


Niarja Myelen
260
86.7
3
0
100%


Ostingele Tectum
13773
74.9
182
2
99%


Renyn Meten
626
39.1
9
7
56%


Romi Thalamus
32988
68.9
464
15
97%


Schmaeel Medulla
13544
76.1
129
49
72%


Slave 32152
2209
63.1
34
1
97%


Slave Tama01
2065
57.4
36
0
100%


Yulai Crus Cerebi
17689
90.3
195
1
99%


Inferno Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I


Arnon Epithalamus
279
279
1
0
100%


Auga Hypophysis
39765
397.7
100
0
100%


Deltole Tegmentum
68156
278.2
245
0
100%


Eystur Rhomben
18943
57.1
332
0
100%


Intaki Colliculus
3286
273.8
12
0
100%


Mara Paleo
1449
76.3
19
0
100%


Niarja Myelen
1189
99.1
12
0
100%


Ostingele Tectum
58503
235.9
248
0
100%


Renyn Meten
944
42.9
22
0
100%


Romi Thalamus
50304
240.7
209
0
100%


Schmaeel Medulla
22551
61.1
369
0
100%


Slave Tama01
476
238
2
0
100%


Garde II


Antem Neo
94763
244.2
337
51
87%


Arnon Epithalamus
34902
359.8
97
0
100%


Auga Hypophysis
62835
622.1
99
2
98%


Deltole Tegmentum
234248
430.6
544
0
100%


Eystur Rhomben
690
4.1
2
166
1%


Intaki Colliculus
180756
448.5
387
16
96%


Mara Paleo
13450
220.5
51
10
84%


Niarja Myelen
5567
428.2
11
2
85%


Ostingele Tectum
208877
396.4
527
0
100%


Renyn Meten
4413
232.3
14
5
74%


Romi Thalamus
439827
398.4
1047
57
95%


Schmaeel Medulla
12050
29.6
24
383
6%


Slave 32152
36337
370.8
95
3
97%


Slave Tama01
42197
387.1
106
3
97%


Yulai Crus Cerebi
211154
335.7
467
162
74%

[shadowandlight]

Awesome thanks! Seems like Geckos are winning in average damage and hits

[Mosg2]

Yeah, and with the setup I have their optimal+falloff is large enough that they save their MWD for when they have to move pretty far. I'm happy with'em.

[Tool of Society]

My logs are no where near that pretty. When I look at the ones on my boxed machine they are missing sites and stuff. On the non boxed machine it doesn't even show anything :(

My gardes have +48% hit rates on the eysturs, schmaeels and renyns.

[Tool of Society]

Okay so last night I finally got shadowplay to work properly so I recorded an OTA run before going to bed.

I was up for nearly 20 hours had already worked and I have a broken tooth that I'm popping pills and using other things to lower the pain. So I was extremely tired and messed up by the time I recorded this. I am already aware of all the stuff I screwed up and most of it is stuff I don't usually screw up. Still despite my mess ups I managed to record what is an ota with tick times (including warping) of under 7 minutes 30 seconds.

I have issues with D working through videofx and I need to work on my rythm as I haven't gotten to use this fleet much so far. Also notice on the last wave I was popping tamas with no webs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnDbXfqMbWQ&feature=youtu.be


NO comments??
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnDbXfqMbWQ&feature=youtu.be)

[Mosg2]

Very nice man. Managing 10 seems a lot easier on the brain :)

[Tool of Society]

This is my first attempt at using videoFX. I'm a total newbie and your video provided a great deal of information for me. You were doing things I didn't know you could do.

Prior I had just used the repeater and that was it.

[Tool of Society]

I decided to make an OTA run after I got off work today but unfortunately there were only NCOs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B40tc3dr8s

That's just my eve clients running in windowed mode with nothing else. I recorded my first NCO run and since the time wasn't awful I decided to just upload it. I'm running low on hard drive space so I can't be picky without deleting videos.

[gomeler]

http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/52002-Post-EULA-Change-EvE-Multiboxing

Drone assist takes a few minutes to setup but is certainly more time efficient than managing locking and firing across all your toons.

Also, sigh@max 50 drones assigned :/

Changed link from direct YouTube link to your video thread so that people can discuss what's happening in your video thread rather than potentially derail these other threads.
-MiRai

Watched your vid, have your DPS pilots watchlist your drone bunny. While you seem to have the right click -> drag -> click down, watchlist will reduce the 'hunt' aspect of it. Takes a little bit of time when you first set everything up, but pays itself back in making the assist even easier.

Nice setup and excellent points about CCP and their decision. Is there a reason you opted for Geckos instead of sentries? I see you posted some damage logs below. I'd think you'd gain some clear time w/ instant sentry application, especially considering how you are primarily shooting cruisers and battleships.

[gomeler]

I decided to make an OTA run after I got off work today but unfortunately there were only NCOs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B40tc3dr8s

That's just my eve clients running in windowed mode with nothing else. I recorded my first NCO run and since the time wasn't awful I decided to just upload it. I'm running low on hard drive space so I can't be picky without deleting videos.

Watching your setup makes me eager for my armor setup. Where you one-shot all of the frigates, I two-three shot everything but the Tamas and Eysturs, which I one shot. I think between the tracking improvements, gaining another ~15 Gardes(2x Nestor + 1x Domi vs 3x Basilisk) and my switching to an armor Vindicator for my trigger, I will hopefully reduce my site times. I'm still hovering around ~13 minute ticks, including all the warping around and setting up drone assist.

Definitely also adding some 425mm rails and just turning the Domis loose on a Deltole or Romi. An extra ~1,000 DPS against the high EHP targets would help move things along without too much additional clicking.

[Tool of Society]

Watching your setup makes me eager for my armor setup. Where you one-shot all of the frigates, I two-three shot everything but the Tamas and Eysturs, which I one shot. I think between the tracking improvements, gaining another ~15 Gardes(2x Nestor + 1x Domi vs 3x Basilisk) and my switching to an armor Vindicator for my trigger, I will hopefully reduce my site times. I'm still hovering around ~13 minute ticks, including all the warping around and setting up drone assist.

Definitely also adding some 425mm rails and just turning the Domis loose on a Deltole or Romi. An extra ~1,000 DPS against the high EHP targets would help move things along without too much additional clicking.I still haven't gotten dps drones on the nestors yet so I'm lacking about 800 dps.

I would use neutrons for the tracking and dps. By the time you're locking on to the bigger targets they are getting pretty close. Neutrons should start decent dps at least by 30 KM. Every time someone tries to run rails with me they always go back to neutron blasters.

My paladin has .042 tracking.

[gomeler]

I still haven't gotten dps drones on the nestors yet so I'm lacking about 800 dps.

I would use neutrons for the tracking and dps. By the time you're locking on to the bigger targets they are getting pretty close. Neutrons should start decent dps at least by 30 KM. Every time someone tries to run rails with me they always go back to neutron blasters.

My paladin has .042 tracking.

Good point, they would be shooting stuff without web support most of the time.

[shadowandlight]

so.. whats the verdict damage wise? Geckos or Garde / Curator II's?

[Mosg2]

Well, my problem is the 50 drones assigned limit. I switched from Rattlesnakes to Dominix running 2 Geckos and a Berserker. The damage and application is great.

I'm going to try shield Rattlesnakes with sentries and see how it is. The instant application is nice but the tracking is non-trivially worse.

[Tool of Society]

Well, my problem is the 50 drones assigned limit. I switched from Rattlesnakes to Dominix running 2 Geckos and a Berserker. The damage and application is great.

I'm going to try shield Rattlesnakes with sentries and see how it is. The instant application is nice but the tracking is non-trivially worse.I saw you with domis moving way earlier today. I have no idea what character you talk on but I'm Kinete Jenius.

I've noticed that all the drones have basically the same delay in response to an attack from the DDD. I've been using infiltrators on the nestors lately because of the lack of hull based tracking bonus. At 3450 m/s in OTA/NMC situations the infs generally arrive shortly after my second frigate is popped by the gardes. Garde and infiltrators both experience a response delay to the DDD engaging a target. The infiltrators generally miss their first attempted shot.

[Mosg2]

Yeah, sentries still have a cycle time. It's another reason I don't mind using heavies as long as they more 3k m/s or more; while they're traveling their guns are cycling anyways.

The Ishtar is the perfect ship, but the damn 50 drone limit gets in my way. If you're doing Vanguards though then they'll work perfectly for you; you should seriously consider training into them. With the hull bonus they get it's pretty easy to have them hitting out to 100k with sentries or running heavies cruising along at 5k m/s.

[Tool of Society]

The ishtar will take 72 days for V which gives me a loss in tracking with gardes. Optimal range isn't the issue for gardes because in VGs nothing spawns outside of 70 Km anyway and even then they are within 55 Km by the time you get target lock anyway. If I went heavies that's an additional 26 days of training. So best case scenario if I stopped all the DPS's training and focused solely on ishtar it would take 97 days and my current plans for other activities would be put on hold.

I don't particularly feel like putting my plans on hold for over 3 months so I can lose tracking with sentries and maybe do slightly better with heavies. Just a personal issue right now with going ishtars.

A shiny fleet from a well known group contested me last night and lost. They basically warped in right after I finished assigning drones. I doubt heavies would of had the chance to hit much.

Currently I'm thinking about switching to two DDDs and splitting the garde dps. Tests have shown that three domis with gardes with a paladin DDD is enough to instant pop a frigate warping in. With one DDD there is no effective way to split dps :( Splitting TPs on one DDD just seems to confuse the drones resulting in a marked drop off in dps.

[Mosg2]

I keep forgetting how stupid long of a train it is into HACs :/

[Tool of Society]

I keep forgetting how stupid long of a train it is into HACs :/

Indeed it's rather inconvenient. I do intend to get training on them at some point in the future. I just need to get some other more important skills finished first.

[gomeler]

The ishtar will take 72 days for V which gives me a loss in tracking with gardes. Optimal range isn't the issue for gardes because in VGs nothing spawns outside of 70 Km anyway and even then they are within 55 Km by the time you get target lock anyway. If I went heavies that's an additional 26 days of training. So best case scenario if I stopped all the DPS's training and focused solely on ishtar it would take 97 days and my current plans for other activities would be put on hold.

I don't particularly feel like putting my plans on hold for over 3 months so I can lose tracking with sentries and maybe do slightly better with heavies. Just a personal issue right now with going ishtars.

A shiny fleet from a well known group contested me last night and lost. They basically warped in right after I finished assigning drones. I doubt heavies would of had the chance to hit much.

Currently I'm thinking about switching to two DDDs and splitting the garde dps. Tests have shown that three domis with gardes with a paladin DDD is enough to instant pop a frigate warping in. With one DDD there is no effective way to split dps :( Splitting TPs on one DDD just seems to confuse the drones resulting in a marked drop off in dps.

I thought about splitting DPS across two drone bunnies but I feared it would gain me little while adding even more complexity to the setup. Maybe some creative use of VideoFX to treat both drone bunnies as one unit could work. It would likely be more efficient for the frigates, as I know not all of my Gardes fire with each frigate I alpha.

[LordsServant]

Or just use vexor navies?

They're kinda like an ishtar lite - 5% bonuses instead of 7.5%, but much easier on the training time and not an issue in terms of isk.

They actually tank a bit better than ishtars as well, ESPECIALLY armor tanked. Might be a better overall choice tbh, depending.

[Tool of Society]

Or just use vexor navies?

They're kinda like an ishtar lite - 5% bonuses instead of 7.5%, but much easier on the training time and not an issue in terms of isk.

They actually tank a bit better than ishtars as well, ESPECIALLY armor tanked. Might be a better overall choice tbh, depending.
Why would I want to take a loss in tank and dps?

[gomeler]

Or just use vexor navies?

They're kinda like an ishtar lite - 5% bonuses instead of 7.5%, but much easier on the training time and not an issue in terms of isk.

They actually tank a bit better than ishtars as well, ESPECIALLY armor tanked. Might be a better overall choice tbh, depending.

VNIs aren't too shabby. With a similar fit to my armor Ishtar setup fit, it has comparable tank , better sentry DPS and identical sentry drone tracking. Optimal + falloff take a hit, however I'd say most of my damage happens inside of the ~30km optimal the VNI gardes feature. Really only the Maras + sniping the initial frigates are the times I reach out to 50-60km.

Only problem w/ the VNI is the resists are slightly lower while the raw armor hitpoints is slightly higher. Both however have inferior armor buffer, inferior DPS, and inferior tracking compared to the armor Dominix. I need to start recording my runs to see if the warp speed and deceleration differences would be that big of a deal. I should be sitting in armor Domis this weekend and armor Ishtars in ~2 weeks.

[Tool of Society]

VNIs aren't too shabby. With a similar fit to my armor Ishtar setup fit, it has comparable tank , better sentry DPS and identical sentry drone tracking. Optimal + falloff take a hit, however I'd say most of my damage happens inside of the ~30km optimal the VNI gardes feature. Really only the Maras + sniping the initial frigates are the times I reach out to 50-60km.

Only problem w/ the VNI is the resists are slightly lower while the raw armor hitpoints is slightly higher. Both however have inferior armor buffer, inferior DPS, and inferior tracking compared to the armor Dominix. I need to start recording my runs to see if the warp speed and deceleration differences would be that big of a deal. I should be sitting in armor Domis this weekend and armor Ishtars in ~2 weeks.

Your fleet is only as fast as the slowest member. For me that is my paladin which is 2.2 AU. My domis beat that with one hyperspatial velocity optimizer I rig. So I'll need to figure out a way to change my fleet if I want faster warp times.

Recording my runs has been a major eye opener.

[Mosg2]

Well, I'm down to 12-14 minute Assaults. I'm working on skills to maximize my DPS application and jiggering with specific fits.

Running 14 Rattlesnakes, 1 Huginn, 1 Drake (few days from Vulture), 2 Ospreys (few days from Basilisk), and 2 Basilisks. With auto-targeting missiles and Geckos I melt through everything.

[gomeler]

PLEX is due again, so I'm back grinding incursions. Spent the last ~month or so training my guys into an armor comp that is showing some nice improvements.

1417

Hovering around 10 minutes +- 30 seconds per Vanguard Nation Commander Outpost, typical warp distance between sites was 40-60 AU. I'm using the following:

Drone bunny - Vindicator - 850 dps blasters, 0 dps drones(training sentries now), 4 webs and a sebo.
DPS - 6x Domi - 534 dps w/ fed navy gardes, 180 dps w/ blasters shooting thorium @ 8+22km.
Booster - 1x EOS - 670 dps w/ fed navy garde.
Logi - 2x Nestor - 0 dps(training sentries now).

My previous setup used 5x domi, 3x basi, 1x loki, 1x nighthawk and I was sitting around 13 minutes including warp +- 1 minute. Biggest improvement was getting enough drones that I 1 shot all frigates but most of the Schmaeel and some of the Renyn. Half of the time, the windicator follows up with a volley and clears the Renyn's before the sentries fire again, saving a little time.

1418

This is missing one of the logs, for some reason a character never generated a log file. I feel like I'm connecting well w/ the Gardes, I just need a faster interface for directing the blasters. I'm also missing ~1k dps from 15x Gardes and 5x blasters, that should be online in ~3 days of training. Then T2 gardes in ~12 days, which adds another ~300-400 DPS. Right now paper DPS is around ~5600 dps, I should jump to ~6800 paper dps where it'll plateau.

I'm quite happy with the armor setup, even though fleet cost jumped from ~2500m to ~6300m due to 3x faction BS, faction webs, and T2 rigs for the Nestors. Hoping over the next couple of days I can break into the low 9 minute range for NCO's(my benchmark site).

In closing, still managing to have some fun with the new multiboxing restrictions, and really hoping CCP doesn't take this away. I'm done heavily boxing PvP, besides capital gank situations. I'm enjoying incursions, primarily as it presents a new challenge but I suspect I'll tire of it in another month or two.

[thedevilyouknow]

Screenshot? :D

[Tool of Society]

Yeah I even struggle with NCO times of 8-9 minute ticks when trying. You're pretty much in line with where I was at that skill point.

Fozzie is dedicated to removing fleet warp for some reason. I'm reasonably sure it's another impotent attempt to nerf bomber boxers that will instead hurt regular players like other prior attempts...

The dps graph just doesn't work for me. My logs are just messed up or something.

[gomeler]

Per my latest EFT warrior session, lasers curb stomp blasters for Domis in Vanguards. The bulk of the EHP that I shoot is Romis and Deltoles @ 20-30km. Mocking a Moa to represent the Romi, with Gamma L and Thorium L, we're talking 200 DPS vs 110 DPS @ 20km, 168 DPS vs 80DPS @ 25km, and 105 DPS vs 52 DPS @ 30km. None of the hybrid ammo choices make much of a difference, due either shooting so far into falloff, or long range ammos dealing terrible DPS. Tinkering, multifreq isn't a good choice, as the engagement range is usually 20-35km, Xray might be another contender.

6x Domis shooting pulses, it'll be another ~500 applied DPS @ 20km. Just finished the T2 sentry train, need to pickup some Garde IIs, that also adds another ~300 applied DPS @ 20km. I'm now eyeballing my Nestors real hard to see if I can safely cram some DDAs and Omnis on there to further boost DPS. I'm overtanked for sure, but it is nice being able to rep through the sansha DPS almost 2x what is needed, for whenever I am not paying attention.

Pretty confident this will be a nice boost, and perhaps one of the last boosts I'll be able to pick up. From here on out it is incremental upgrades with Drone Interfacing 5 on the DPS ships, and maybe training gunnery supports from 4 to 5 and gallente battleship from 4 to 5. Being limited to drone assist for primary damage application restricts my upgrade choices, which is a shame.

[thedevilyouknow]

cmon bro wanna see the setup :D

medium rails tho?

[gomeler]

cmon bro wanna see the setup :D

medium rails tho?

Will grab a screenshot later tonight or tomorrow.

Hadn't considered medium rails. Mocking them up in EFT, looks like they could be competitive with the large pulses.

1429

edit: red = lazors, green = medium rails, blue = large rails. Rails firing faction antimatter, lazors firing faction gamma.

But I was already excited over all the cargo space I'd free up by only having to carry one spare set of crystals. I'm currently 50/50 ammo/lyavite, I'd love to be able to haul more lyavite with me. I typically squad warp myself to a moon when I want to log off, and only dock up when I need to repair hull damage or buy more ammo/lyavite. Saving the medium rail build, it would be something I could test this weekend.

[thedevilyouknow]

Also nice tracking at the ranges you mentioned
not sure if EFT factors in the tracking in signature radius, but yeah either way looks nice

The only issue would definitely be the ammo

[Tool of Society]

I only went pulses because most of my dps lacks large anything else. None of my dps can even use a rail gun.

So I ran tonight with a modded setup. This is a full length video from time of warp command to notice of completion. I forgot to record tonight and I didn't realize till I was about to quit for the night. Work was busy today so I took a muscle relaxer and smoked a bowl when I got home. This was my last run of the night. I ran 4 sentry domies with 3 domis using 2x gecko 2x hammerhead 1x hobgoblin with 3 drone navigation computers 1x tracking 1x optimal omni computer.

I've discovered that hammerheads are a poor choice for me to use. They are much slower than the hobgoblins while having mild to substantially higher MISS percentages on everything when compared to the lone hobgoblin. The dps alpha on the hammerheads was only marginally higher than the hobgoblins. I didn't lose a single one over the course of using them for 2 hours. I don't even know if they got shot at as none of them had armor damage.

Geckos were a few hundred M/S behind the hammerheads. Hit percentage of geckos was about on par with the hammerheads. DPS wise the geckos absolutely dominated the hammerheads. Sansha ignored the geckos totally all 2 hours.

Hobgoblins were almost twice as fast as the geckos. The hobgoblins shot more things and shot them at a higher percentage than the other drones. Did more actual dps than hammerheads on SChmaels niarjas and eysturs every site. No damage taken that I noticed during the 2 hours.

Garde IIs actually hit at noticeably higher percentages than the hammerheads and geckos. I was really surprised by those numbers.

Infiltrator IIs : Were being used by the nestors with no drone related modules. Despite the lack of any modules the nestor infiltrators out performed the hammerheads.

Gecko 4367 m/s
Hammerhead 4837 m/s
Infiltrator 6622 m/s
Hobgoblin 8062 m/s
Acolyte 11085 m/s

I noticed today that 1 hammerhead and 1 hobgoblin died both were on the same domi so I'm not sure what caused that. The mobile drones seemed to help with frigate destruction which helped my NCO times. I have some options to test out on my next chance.

I'm trying to decide if I should go
5x garde II domis with two 2x gecko 3x acolyte domi or gecko snakes.
or
screw it 7 garde IIs back to the basics

I really liked the increased damage the hobs brought on the little frigates and I'm sure the acolytes would work a little better thanks to the improved applied dps capability.

I do know that getting my fleet all warping at 2.5 AU did help site times a noticeable bit especially on the longer warps.


I think I have the correct combat log information from tonight here. I had people in local who were running the same sites as me so I had more then a few double warps. I can't quite get the scouting aspect down properly with this setup.

1430

1431


VIDEO


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhOLJKdkTj8

Combat log from the night before in the same site but without the 2.5 au warp and with only gardes. I had distraction issues which is why there's a large gap of nothing. I didn't post a video because nothing new occurred.

1433


This is the combat log from the video I posted on the 24th which was a nice clear night. I didn't have my warp speed increase kicked in yet for this and it's noticeable. Times would of been +20 seconds or faster faster based on what I experienced tonight.

1432

Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZz_5dI6fgM


This has been pretty much how little I've had in chances to run lately :(


Any constructive comments are appreciated :)

[Tool of Society]

Argh messed the post up.

[thedevilyouknow]

Currently my only constructive comment is this

If you watchlist the drone bunny, i believe you can assign drones easier instead of having to look down the character list (instead of Rclick, assign, "list of characters") and the act of moving the mouse downwards and to the left/right
It be will Rclick, assign, watchlist, character name

This may save you some seconds as instead of moving down the new "tab" when you try to assign drones to someone in fleet, you will be moving your mouse directly right/left everytime you assign drones as your drone ships will only have 1 character in watch list

Hope this helps

Also what logi are you using? your videos dont show the logi pilots

Alsox2, im assuming the paladin with bastion and 1 large armor rep is enough to stave off the DPS? (as in you can perma run the tank on the paladin with bastion and not have to worry about tank)

[gomeler]

I'd split your trigger's guns. There were a couple of times you were waiting for something besides a web so as to trigger on the next frigate, when they were burning in. Can't really tell, but I'm guessing those mobile drones were really helping with mopping up the frigates when they go into orbit, as you mentioned yourself. Nice run, looks like you're roughly a minute faster than me, gives me hope there is room to improve.

I had considered rigging for warp speed, as sometimes you end up with 40-80 AU warps, would be nice to warp around slightly faster. Might still do that, first plan on logging and recording separate runs with Garde IIs, medium rails, and eventually pulses.

[Tool of Society]

thedevilyouknow (http://www.dual-boxing.com/members/64977-thedevilyouknow)


Putting the drone bunny on watchlist does absolutely nothing for me other than increase initial setup time. I still missclick just as often when assigning with the DDD on watchlist as without. So I just don't bother.

The paladin is basically cap stable with about 2800 HPS so I can do incursions with influence. It can almost self rep itself through a zero influence OTA out of bastion. Highest I've tried so far was 40% influence and the paladin took it like a champ.

Logi consists of two nestors one on the left screen/system and one on the right screen which is the same system as the video. I usually launch and assign infiltrators from them once I get time. They also carry heavy hull maintenance II drones.


Gomeler

I keep forgetting to split the guns into two. I mean to when I'm not playing then when I get around to playing I have so much else going on my mind that I forget. Thanks to your reminder I logged into the paladin only and split the guns before I forget again. I did more peak DPS with pure gardes. If I get home early enough I'll try again tonight with 2x gecko 2x inf 1x hob with 3 domis to see what I get. What I really need is to be wide awake and not half a sleep like I have been lately in the videos.

I've always been able to splatter most of the frigates when they are still mwding in. Tamas in particular are good to splat till web range without webs.

The domis are rigged for warp speed and the paladin has a warp speed low which puts them in line with the nestors normal 2.5 AU warp. My kill times aren't fast enough to warrant anything beyond that for warp speed.



EDIT : I noticed today that one domi had lost one hammerhead and one hobgoblin. No other domis lost any drones and no other domi needed to have any repairs.

[gomeler]

Understand you on the gun splitting, I JUST added a key map to change windows, previous I was smashing ctrl+alt+(1-9) to move between my accounts. Now it's middle mouse click, which seemed to help a little bit when setting up the initial drone assist. Only took ~3 months of running maybe ~50 sites/month -_-

Just ran a NCO to try out Open Broadcaster Software(OBS) to record both screens. Poor computer is running out of CPU, 10 clients usually consumes 35-50%, OBS was eating every other available cycle. Probably didn't help that I was basically recording 2560x1440 @ 30fps w/ the bitrate set to 20mbit/s. Yielded an okay quality video, now I just need to crank the CPU up to maybe 4.5 GHz and get better at switching between the recorded screen as I switch focus.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbDqDgQLLtI

edit: looks like there is an OBS fork that might support GPU offload. I have a second R9 290 just sitting idle on the shelf.. ;)

[Tool of Society]

Wow I'm using a HD5770 and you're letting an r9 290 just lay around...


I at first was mad that I forgot to split the guns then I was mad at you for pointing it out then I was mad at myself for being mad. I mean after all the whole point of posting the video and data was to get constructive feedback which you provided. So now I'm just glad some people watched it and one of them had something that was helpful to say :)

[gomeler]

Wow I'm using a HD5770 and you're letting an r9 290 just lay around...


I at first was mad that I forgot to split the guns then I was mad at you for pointing it out then I was mad at myself for being mad. I mean after all the whole point of posting the video and data was to get constructive feedback which you provided. So now I'm just glad some people watched it and one of them had something that was helpful to say :)

Oh dude, I've been furious trying to figure out how I could get my run times to match your run times. Every month, when I grind PLEX for ~8-12 hours, I've been chasing your times. Getting sooooo close. I've probably watched every video you've put out, looking to tips/tricks. It's also why I finally EFT'd lazors. pew pew.

As for the 290, did a bunch of bitcoin and litecoin mining from ~2011-2014 or so. For a short time, R9 290s were actually incredible value, so I bought a few. Kept a pair in my desktop, but had issues with CrossFire and EVE, didn't appear to be working =\

[Tool of Society]

Yeah GPU bit mining with those cards was AAAAMMMAAAZZZZING for some time.

I've built several systems for people and I just don't like dealing with crossfire/SLI when it comes to games like eve.


Well contests are pretty awful to deal with when I'm not running all gardes.

[Tool of Society]

After running for a while I ended up switching one of the gecko/inf/aco domis back to garde IIs. After looking at the data I'm switching to 5 garde and 2 gecko/aco domis for my next night of running. I see no reason to use infiltrators as they are slower and do less dps to the targets that my gardes have issues with (schmaeel/renyn/eystur). The acolytes even did more average damage per hit on tamas than my gardes.

I'm really starting to like the 5 garde II 2 gecko/aco setup. OTA times are comparable to the all gardes composition while being noticeable quicker in NCOs.

My fleet does a 45 au warp in 1 minute 2 seconds from click of fleet warp till I'm clicking on the gates.

[gomeler]

Did my first NMC w/ the medium rails. Running with 100% influence(yay, incursion all to myself so far), medium rails are a pain in the balls. Faster cycle time + lower ammo count = more reloading. The good news is they apply pretty well to the Romis/Augas I was shooting.

Going to keep playing with the medium rails for the time being, but definitely training into large lasers. EFT says it'll apply just as well, more DPS, and far less reloading.

Lastly, dual 250mm prototype gauss does less DPS with all 5s than 250mm prototype gauss does. 161 dps vs 179 dps. Same optimal + falloff, less tracking, more capacitor use. Lolwut?

[thedevilyouknow]

Higher ammo count?

[gomeler]

Higher ammo count?

40 shots vs 80 shots 250mm rails vs 425mm blasters. Similar RoF around 4.x seconds.

[Tool of Society]

Did my first NMC w/ the medium rails. Running with 100% influence(yay, incursion all to myself so far), medium rails are a pain in the balls. Faster cycle time + lower ammo count = more reloading. The good news is they apply pretty well to the Romis/Augas I was shooting.

Going to keep playing with the medium rails for the time being, but definitely training into large lasers. EFT says it'll apply just as well, more DPS, and far less reloading.

Lastly, dual 250mm prototype gauss does less DPS with all 5s than 250mm prototype gauss does. 161 dps vs 179 dps. Same optimal + falloff, less tracking, more capacitor use. Lolwut?I think I know which incursion you went to. I'm taking a break from running for a week or so due to the location of spawns and stuff going on in my life. I'm going to switch the nestors to acolytes and run two domis with 2x gecko 3x acolyte when I next run. I think the acolytes will help improve kills on the smaller frigates so NCOs aren't as painful. The geckos will keep overall dps up about where it was with just garde IIs.

Well that's my theory at least.

[Tool of Society]

I ran tonight with a slightly different setup.

2 nestors as before and a paladin DDD

Five Domis using garde IIs
Two Domis using 2 gecko 3 acolyte IIs
Nestors were using acolyte IIs

Lots of competition so I was unable to run any OTAs. I ended up running quite a few NCO and NMCs. I chose the videos I posted because they were in the middle of the pack time wise and were examples of me not doing everything perfectly. What you would expect to happen over time as you grind away. A 45 AU warp takes about 1 minute from time of click till able to warp again/use gate. There are points where you can watch the geckos at work.

NMC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4bZm2-gTwE


NCO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZahhEjfAso

My combat logs are messed up because I had people join me after I had run for a while.


So I have a Legion DDD fit that has 52 sensor strength. I'm curious if that's enough to knock niarja jams down to almost non existent? With the loki DDD I could run two webs two tps and a sensor booster for 4 second locks vs my current 8 second and still have as much EHP in armor as the paladin.