Ugh @ New AV

[Mosg2]

Sigh. Even less honor per hour for Horde now on my Battlegroup. Instead of 11 minute losses for ~350-400 honor it's now 11 minute losses for ~150-200. I guess I should be happy that I finished almost all of the honor grind prior to 2.4.

[thinus]

And now you can look forward to getting steamrolled by premades all day long during AV weekend as well. What fun.

[marvein]

wtf? why is it so much less now? is it because of an actual change or just because horde are sucking more post 2.4?

[marvein]

Sigh. Even less honor per hour for Horde now on my Battlegroup. Instead of 11 minute losses for ~350-400 honor it's now 11 minute losses for ~150-200. I guess I should be happy that I finished almost all of the honor grind prior to 2.4.

Are you sure its less? Remember the old system estimated honor and would more-often-then-not fuck up the calculation, so you'd get less than you thought the next day.

Now its instant honor, so what you see is what you get.

good point, I have a screenshot of being 1 (as in 1 single point) of honor short of an item I wanted when the day before the estimated honor was nearly 1k higher than I should have needed.

[Jaws5]

Are you saying since the Horde starting point is moved back we only get 1 or 2 bunkers before loss or it takes forever to kill Bal

[Mosg2]

As I suspected before 2.4 hit, there are two ways that games go on my Battlegroup now:

1. Horde turtle at IB and force a 30 minute win where we can usually snag ~400 honor to the Alliance's 0-150 or so.

2. Horde doesn't turtle and Alliance steamrolls to Drek in the EXACT same f'ing time it took them pre-2.4 but we can BARELY get SP under control before they start on Drek. That means we're losing North and South bunker cap honor plus many times SH and IW bunker cap honor because they can push to Drek so fast.

All of this stems from the fact that Alliance are forced to go in one path from our lieutenant to TP to IB and then straight to RH. Our archers are a joke and they don't have 4 aggro elite NPC's standing right next to the GY that prevent them from capping it. So, while 1 or 2 Alliance at AS can hold off a full group of Horde from capping, it takes 10-15 minimum at the RH to prevent Alliance from capping it... And our East and West towers are ticking down as they do it, too.

What makes me sick is knowing that Blizz did this so that you couldn't have 10 minute games anymore. My guess is that they didn't want AV games to take 1/3 the amount of time that an AB takes and give 3 times the honor, so they tried to force Horde to play D. It's disgusting.

After getting 7 toons kitted in full S1/Vindicator's, I don't think I'd ever have the patience to do this again on a single other toon. Ever.

Edit: Just hit the magic post number :) I'm going to have a beer to celebrate. BRB.

[thinus]

1. Horde turtle at IB and force a 30 minute win where we can usually snag ~400 honor to the Alliance's 0-150 or so.

In my battlegroup we did this pre 2.4 anyway.


2. Horde doesn't turtle and Alliance steamrolls to Drek in the EXACT same f'ing time it took them pre-2.4 but we can BARELY get SP under control before they start on Drek. That means we're losing North and South bunker cap honor plus many times SH and IW bunker cap honor because they can push to Drek so fast.

Even pre 2.4 Horde in our battlegroup almost never try and race the Alliance due to the SP/bridge choke points.


All of this stems from the fact that Alliance are forced to go in one path from our lieutenant to TP to IB and then straight to RH. Our archers are a joke and they don't have 4 aggro elite NPC's standing right next to the GY that prevent them from capping it. So, while 1 or 2 Alliance at AS can hold off a full group of Horde from capping, it takes 10-15 minimum at the RH to prevent Alliance from capping it... And our East and West towers are ticking down as they do it, too.

Which is why a solid defense is crucial to a Horde victory. You *can* cap the alliance base without the towers firing at you or aggroing the elite NPCs. I do it all the time on my rogue. Sneak into the base, pull the 4 guards and kill them, cap the GY.


What makes me sick is knowing that Blizz did this so that you couldn't have 10 minute games anymore. My guess is that they didn't want AV games to take 1/3 the amount of time that an AB takes and give 3 times the honor, so they tried to force Horde to play D. It's disgusting.

I am almost positive the motivation for the change had nothing to do with the time an AV takes. Alliance cried and cried and cried about losing almost every AV which is why Blizzard changed it. Maybe it is different in your battlegroup but in my battlegroup there are very few AV losses and quite frequently we beat the Alliance without them capping any towers. I've probably done around 30-40 AVs and only lost 3 or 4.


After getting 7 toons kitted in full S1/Vindicator's, I don't think I'd ever have the patience to do this again on a single other toon. Ever.

Instead of approaching BGs as a means to farm honor for gear with PvP being a side-effect you might enjoy it more if you approach it as a means to PvP with honor and gear being a side-effect.

[Mosg2]

Most of your battlegroup's problems seem to stem from the fact that people aren't there for total honor per hour. When people are there for "fun" without being focused, it turns my smooth 10 minute honor runs into 30+ minute clusterfvcks.

I'll be honest, I don't give a flying fvck if we win or lose, I just want to get the maximum honor per hour. Depending on 35 other people to do something productive for me to have fun is the exact reason I started multi-boxing in the first place.

As for the changes themselves... Now nothing is going to change except to FORCE Horde into playing defense and giving the Alliance zero honor. On your battlegroup it was already happening... Now it will spread like a disease to all battlegroups.

As an aside... I've never enjoyed AV, nor any of the battlegrounds unless I'm coming in a full-force premade. I hate depending on other people to do stuff in order to win, especially when those people are mostly 12 year olds with ADD. I've been slowly farming AB tokens to get my last honor piece and I can't even begin to explain how frustrating it is to go on and cap 3 different flags and then have nobody to defend. One could argue that maybe I should D what I cap... But having 4 people D something that only needs 2 will put pressure on the other nodes and make it even more unlikely that we'll win.

Finally... With all due respect... Please don't tell me you think that you sneaking into AS on your Rogue and a group of Horde trying to get to the AS are even near the same thing. Sure, you can go on the left side of that tonka truck in the middle of their base and then run to the AS and pull the guards to the other side, but JUST getting to the flag itself puts my lead Shaman from 10k buffed to about 2k from just arrows alone. It's almost impossible to get there alive running in by yourself, let alone then being able to deal with the flag defenders AND whatever Alliance are hanging around.

All I'm trying to say is that if Blizzard wanted to try and make Alliance win more (Even considering BG's like my own where they win 90%+ of the games) then they should have moved their starting point forward instead of moving ours farther back. Hell, there's probably a dozen other solutions that'd work that would even out the win/loss ratio. This one seems misinformed and ill-guided. In any case, as I said before, I'm happy I'm pretty much done with AV as an honor farm. Ugh.

[thinus]

My battlegroup doesn't have a problem, we actually like to PvP in a PvP BG and we play to win, go figure.

And as I said before, you will enjoy AV if you changed your approach but apparently your idea of fun is maximizing your honor and not actually PvPing.

[Mosg2]

All right, I intentionally made my post non-personal, but you had to go there:

AV is not "pvp". It's "zergfest". Any scrub can go in there and get to the top of the boards due to the sheer number of people to hide behind. How many honestly skillful people have you met in AV? Almost none? Wow, that's amazing, because after grinding SEVEN toons to full S1/Vindicator's I feel the *exact* same way!

You're judging the world solely off of how YOU see it, and that's just plain wrong. I'm NEVER going to enjoy AV because it inherently a) lacks any real person skill to do well or poorly, and b) you are entrusting your honor per hour to ~35 other people who you most likely don't know.

It's great that you get enough epeen out of winning, but I'd rather maximise my time spent doing something I don't enjoy. Just because we're coming at it from two different angles doesn't make me right or you right or vice versa, but it does mean that you need to respect the fact that many people, not just myself, are there for honor and not for "fun" first.

[Eteocles]

Not to mention NOTHING HAS CHANGED. AV is still the same. Pre-patch you could still join as group via mods like StinkyQueue(And people quite often did), there's probably just an "initial rush" post-patch of people trying it out then it'll settle back down to normal lol

[thinus]

Nowhere did I say anything about right or wrong. You were whining about AV and how horrible it is and how people actually playing the BG different than you turns it into a clusterfuck, whaaaa, whaaaa, whaaa.

I just pointed out that if you changed your approach to AV you would enjoy it.


It's great that you get enough epeen out of winning

Someone once said, "Its not about winning or losing, its how you play the game".
I said, "play to win" and nothing about winning or losing. I chose my words carefully. And my epeen is not what makes AV fun for me, holding off Alliance long enough for a bunker to cap, tracking down that annoying stealther in our base, rushing to towers to defend, breaking the Alliance turtle at SP, disrupting the initial Alliance IB zerg, those are all examples of fun things that I do in AV. The most annoying thing in AV is someone QQing about their honor/hour in chat. Bring back the 8 hour AVs I say!


You're judging the world solely off of how YOU see it, and that's just plain wrong.

I do?


AV is not "pvp". It's "zergfest".

So you believe that AV was designed to be zerged so that players can maximize their honor/hour and that PvPing in AV was never the intention? Sounds to me like you are the one judging AV by how YOU see it and how YOU play it and why YOU don't enjoy it.

I believe that going into a BG with the sole intention of farming honor is not in the spirit of the game which is why I rarely go into AB and EotS as it is 90% dominated by premade teams with the sole intention of winning the game as soon as possible to maximize their honor gain and now with groups allowed the same thing will happen in AV. My objective against any premade team is to attempt to annoy them as much as possible by dragging out the game as long as I possibly can. And there are few things sweeter than a PuG beating a premade.

Except for the join as group option I don't see the changes being negative at all and I have to agree that in our battlegroup I don't see how it will make any difference for the Alliance either. The Alliance cried about the map being unfair and Blizzard changed it. The Horde has been crying for ages about the Alliance base being much better defended and that has never changed. Capping the towers and killing Balinda with a balanced defense/offense means you don't need to go into their base at all. Just blocking the Alliance at the top of the map and taking everything else will get you a win.


So why did you farm AV for honor? Why not EotS or AB? Why are you finished with it? I assume every new season will bring new honor gear.

[thinus]

Not to mention NOTHING HAS CHANGED. AV is still the same. Pre-patch you could still join as group via mods like StinkyQueue(And people quite often did), there's probably just an "initial rush" post-patch of people trying it out then it'll settle back down to normal lol

Premades farming honor in AB/EotS might queue for AV as well if they figure their team is strong enough to zerg the opposition base, kill the general and make more honor/hour than doing AB or EotS. Or they might just do it for a change of pace.

I think the 40-man AV premade will still be rare but I think you will find a lot more 15-mans in AV.

[ilikemages]

illidan battlegroup now actually plays AV... ZOMG... alliance stopped QQing and we now have 3 min ques instead of fucking 2 hour ones!

[Mosg2]

1. Blizzard intended for AV to be a longer game that was strategic in nature, but players will always intuitively find the easiest route to anything. AV is the easiest BG to get honor in, and there are certain strategies that maximize the honor that you can get out of it. What I'm trying to get across to you, Thinus, is that all they did was force Horde to play one particular strategy if they want to maximize honor per hour... While still allowing Alliance the option of playing it however they want to.

2. It's just not worth arguing with anyone about. I go to AV so that I don't have to spend 3-4 times as long in AB or EOTS for honor. You go to AV to enjoy the game itself. I'm not knocking you for enjoying it, I'm knocking you for not realizing the full implications of what Blizz did.

Back to AB for some tokens to finish this off. Ugh.

[Tehtsuo]

Mosg2, I hate to be combative, but you seem to be operating with the same point of view as most of the people we're assaulted by on the Blizzard forums on a regular basis. AV is supposed to be a zergfest in your opinion. You want to get the most honor per hour. Please keep in mind that there are many different points of view on this forum. You are 100% entitled to your opinion, and doubtless many agree with you, but please don't be upset or frustrated when some don't share your point of view. We're all friends here. :thumbup:

[Boylston]

Not to mention NOTHING HAS CHANGED. AV is still the same. Pre-patch you could still join as group via mods like StinkyQueue(And people quite often did)

Actually, for some battlegroups, everything has changed.

StinkyQueue was worthless in battlegroups where one side had decided that AV was unfair and wasn't playing (US-Rampage BG, for example). We had 60-90min queues on the horde side because Alliance stopped playing. Now it's back to 1-2min, and I hope it stays that way.

I don't think AV was perfectly balanced pre-2.4, and I don't think it is now. Yes, there are problems with archers on the horde side, but there are a variety of problems in other places as well. IB GY is still infinitely easier to defend than SH GY. The same team can also defend Galv very easily at the onset and react quickly to wherever the alliance goes. The best strategy (for either side) seems to revolve around a strong initial defense that slowly shifts people to offense as the opposing team gets spread out and lesser-coordinated.

For my team, however, pre-2.4 looked like this:
* 90min queue
* Very small chance of playing with all 4 guys in the same AV
* 80-90% Horde win rate

Post 2.4:
* 1-2 min queue
* Guaranteed to play with my team
* Much more even fight between Horde/Alliance, whoever is "smarter" generally wins

[Mosg2]

Tehtsuo: I'm not saying I like it being a zergfest, I'm saying that when you throw 40 people who have never worked together in the same raid and try and tell them too coordinate, it doesn't work. It's the natural outcome. What I'm trying to get across about the zergfest is that, in rebuttal to Thinus' point, there is very little skill testing done in AV. It's not often that it's a "fair fight" between equally geared and equally skilled players--It's almost always that one side dominates the other.

Boylston: I'm happy to hear that your battlegroup is doing better! Going from what you had to what you have sure sounds like a vast improvement... I just wish Blizz could've done it in a way that didn't at the same time negatively affect other battlegroups. Sigh.

For all: I just realized what Blizz did! YOU CAN NO LONGER QUE IN GROUPS LARGER THAN FIVE! I spent 15 minutes trying to que my 15 man premade AB yesterday and it just wouldn't do it. I couldn't understand why.

Can anyone else confirm this? It's just a hunch off of what I saw yesterday as far as forming premades.

[Diamndzngunz]

the thing that sucks about the Join as group... you cannot do a Premade. Only 5 person max.

[Eteocles]

I WAS RIGHT AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...*cough* sorry. So apparently, other than the AB 6man example above(You sure the 6th got queue'd?) people seem to be -literally- joining as GROUP. Can we get some more tests to confirm this?

[thinus]

I logged in my rogue, all the BGs were down.
I logged in my 5-box team and started Crypts. Server restart.
Logged back in, did Crypts.
Logged in my rogue and did AV, the lag was so bad that it took about 15-20s for the server to register a command. I think there were 5 kills for the duration of the game. Both sides just zerged to the generals with a few capping bunkers/towers.
Joined WSG and it was better but we experienced numerous other glitches like people getting rez boxes right on their corpses as they die and don't get ported to the GY. I have a screenshot of an 11 vs 9 WSG.

Add to that the madly scrolling combat log and all the spam in the trade channel and I dust off my mental note about not playing on patch day. Opinion reserved until AV is actually playable.

[Maxion]

I played an AV and the lag was horrible. Heard the lag was gone a few hours later though.
I'm having some issues with the new chat windows though, for a while today my combat log wouldn't show anything other than rep gains and durability loss. And my general chat window resets to showing all the channels every time i log in (i keep my guild chat and other channels i like to read without getting scrolled off by trade spam etc in a different chat window), and to fix this i have to go into the settings for the general chat window, turn everything on, click ok, then go back in again and turn them back off. This fixes it until i log out. Not sure how i fixed my combat log.

[thinus]

Ran an AV yesterday. SS to follow. Horde - 600 odd bonus honor, Alliance - 24 bonus honor. I wonder what excuse the Alliance is going to use now.

[Mosg2]

They already knew that it just comes down to whether or not Horde plays D at IB or not. I toldya, this is just going to slow down the honor gains across all servers :)

[Dor]

just guess..they "accidentally" took off the realm listing for ppl in bgs...wondering if the shorter queues are due to them mixing in more servers per queue (ie 2 or 3 battle grps instead of just 1 battle grp) or for that matter all the battle grps in one big queue to make that many more ppl avail and therefore faster queue time

[thinus]

They already knew that it just comes down to whether or not Horde plays D at IB or not. I toldya, this is just going to slow down the honor gains across all servers :)

This is the same way we've played AV since 2.3 so there is no "honor slowdown" for me. Actually, it is an honor increase as due to the AV boycott our queue times were around 1 hour. Now it is minutes.

In a zerg game the Horde got 315 odd bonus honor and the Alliance got 285 odd honor and there were about 5 or 6 HKs. I accounted for 2 of those by killing 1 and being killed once defending a tower. I don't believe this is in the spirit of the game and it is an abortion brought on by meta gaming and honor rewards. If this was the "norm" in my battlegroup I wouldn't play AV.

I, for one, will be extremely happy if they can reduce AV honor enough that all the honor farmers go to other BGs and only the people that like playing AV actually go to AV. Unfortunately a lot of people will still show up just for the tokens.

I also predominantly play AV and WSG due to the lack of premade teams and because I only PvP for fun, I've already got most of the honor gear I can get (350+ res and 10K+ hp) and that is just from playing now and then when I am in the mood for pvp and need a break from the 5-box team. Getting honor gear has never been my motivation for going into BGs, well, except back in the day when gear were awarded based on rankings and I grinded rank 11 for the free epic mount.

My 5-box team is aimed at PvE and when I go into BGs I will go with the same attitude I go into BGs now, to achieve the objectives and to have fun, not to maximize my honour/hour. My aim is not to have a 2000+ rated arena team. The gear is not *must* have. I won't get frustrated when people don't play the BG the way I do because I can just walk away and quite happily not go into the BGs.

[Vyndree]

The difference here is primarily in the removal of HK diminishing returns.

Regardless of whether it's a turtle or not -- for once you're actually getting decent honor from sitting there and killing enemy players. So that bonus honor, to me at least, doesn't mean much anymore.

[Mosg2]

They already knew that it just comes down to whether or not Horde plays D at IB or not. I toldya, this is just going to slow down the honor gains across all servers :)

I disagree. People are actually playing AV now. So no matter how screwed up it is, you'll get more honor because you dont' have to wait 2 hours to play.

That's great for you that your battlegroup is getting more total honor per hour because of the que times, but it's just as valid for me to say that it's a bad change because my battlegroup is getting less. I'll say it again, I'm positive there are other solutions to the boycotting problem that doesn't involove forcing Horde to play D every game if they want any bonus honor at all.

Thinus: I understand where you're coming from, but you shouldn't get down on other people's play styles. Just because they don't enjoy doing a particular BG but *have* to because of the honor/mark system doesn't mean that they have any less right to play the game they want to. You can't judge other people wrong by your own arbitrary standard in life.

Also, I'm pretty sure they changed the server names so that you can't tell if it's a premade and afk out or take another que.

[Mokoi]

Nowhere did I say anything about right or wrong. You were whining about AV and how horrible it is and how people actually playing the BG different than you turns it into a clusterfuck, whaaaa, whaaaa, whaaa.

I just pointed out that if you changed your approach to AV you would enjoy it.


It's great that you get enough epeen out of winning

Someone once said, "Its not about winning or losing, its how you play the game".
I said, "play to win" and nothing about winning or losing. I chose my words carefully. And my epeen is not what makes AV fun for me, holding off Alliance long enough for a bunker to cap, tracking down that annoying stealther in our base, rushing to towers to defend, breaking the Alliance turtle at SP, disrupting the initial Alliance IB zerg, those are all examples of fun things that I do in AV. The most annoying thing in AV is someone QQing about their honor/hour in chat. Bring back the 8 hour AVs I say!


You're judging the world solely off of how YOU see it, and that's just plain wrong.

I do?


AV is not "pvp". It's "zergfest".

So you believe that AV was designed to be zerged so that players can maximize their honor/hour and that PvPing in AV was never the intention? Sounds to me like you are the one judging AV by how YOU see it and how YOU play it and why YOU don't enjoy it.

I believe that going into a BG with the sole intention of farming honor is not in the spirit of the game which is why I rarely go into AB and EotS as it is 90% dominated by premade teams with the sole intention of winning the game as soon as possible to maximize their honor gain and now with groups allowed the same thing will happen in AV. My objective against any premade team is to attempt to annoy them as much as possible by dragging out the game as long as I possibly can. And there are few things sweeter than a PuG beating a premade.

Except for the join as group option I don't see the changes being negative at all and I have to agree that in our battlegroup I don't see how it will make any difference for the Alliance either. The Alliance cried about the map being unfair and Blizzard changed it. The Horde has been crying for ages about the Alliance base being much better defended and that has never changed. Capping the towers and killing Balinda with a balanced defense/offense means you don't need to go into their base at all. Just blocking the Alliance at the top of the map and taking everything else will get you a win.


So why did you farm AV for honor? Why not EotS or AB? Why are you finished with it? I assume every new season will bring new honor gear.

I couldn't agree with every word here more.

Play the game because it's a game and not because its work. you have a job to maximize your gains/hour why not enjoy your way to the honor pvP gear? Afterall, why the hell are you even after pvP gear if you hate the PvP part of the game so much? LOL

[Eteocles]

Because SH is already capping by the time we even get to drek, then we have to clear IB tower, THEN try to take IB if it's not turtled; if horde dies on belinda, their run back has multiple path options to get back to the fight and to avoid the alliance zerg(We're usually still busy on drek/tower) whereas if an alliance dies at drek/tower without IB taken, and since SH is contested right off the fucking bat, we have to ride back from fucking STORMPIKE, and THROUGH the horde who ALWAYS gank every person who runs by, and we have ONE path choice: Up a thin hill past a horde-targeted tower past SH gy where there's even MORE horde sittin around defending it. Aka, alliance are afraid to die by pulling drek and with good reason; not to mention belinda just sheeps the nearest rogue, while drek fears the entire fucking raid all at once, which 90% of the time just "happens" to send them ALL out to the front door and out of los of drek.

Balanced my ass...grumble grumble lol

Lazy man's edit: Replace all instances of "Drek" above with "Galv"

As for Drek himself...I usually don't see people being too shy about pulling, problem is tanking him...if there's no raid-experienced tank available, I WILL pull aggro off any other tank. I have to hope the healers are paying attention and realize a boomkin is tanking since noone else can out-threat me lol

[Mosg2]

I couldn't agree with every word here more.

Play the game because it's a game and not because its work. you have a job to maximize your gains/hour why not enjoy your way to the honor pvP gear? Afterall, why the hell are you even after pvP gear if you hate the PvP part of the game so much? LOL

Again, don't tell me how to play the game--I'm not telling YOU how to play the game. Since you invited me in though, I'll say a few things:

Don't insult my intelligence by saying that AV is about PvP. Alterac Valley IS NOT PVP! As I said in my rebuttal to Thinus a few days ago, AV isn't where skilled PvP'ers go to test how good they are--It's where they go to farm honor to compete in the "real" PvP test of Arenas. No, they're not perfect, but they're a damn sight better than AV.

AV is a zergfest. It's 40 people with no real communication or sense of teamwork trying to kill some NPC's. Sometimes you get lucky and people take the right bunkers and graveyards at the right time, and sometimes you don't. That has absolutely no bearing on my skill as a PvP'er in the slightest.

Don't suggest to me that I should just "learn to like it" either. I hated team sports growing up--I hate depending on other people to do what they're supposed to in order to win. It's one of the major reasons I stopped raiding after TBC came out. I can show up with all my pots, flasks, consumables, best gear available to me outside of raiding etc, and STILL not succeed because I don't have control (as the guild or raid leader) of telling some slackasses to GTFO. It's the exact same thing with AV only worse, because generally speaking raiders are a little older.

In conclusion, anyone that thinks AV is real honest PvP can go choke themselves.


Because SH is already capping by the time we even get to drek, then we have to clear IB tower, THEN try to take IB if it's not turtled; if horde dies on belinda, their run back has multiple path options to get back to the fight and to avoid the alliance zerg(We're usually still busy on drek/tower) whereas if an alliance dies at drek/tower without IB taken, and since SH is contested right off the fucking bat, we have to ride back from fucking STORMPIKE, and THROUGH the horde who ALWAYS gank every person who runs by, and we have ONE path choice: Up a thin hill past a horde-targeted tower past SH gy where there's even MORE horde sittin around defending it. Aka, alliance are afraid to die by pulling drek and with good reason; not to mention belinda just sheeps the nearest rogue, while drek fears the entire fucking raid all at once, which 90% of the time just "happens" to send them ALL out to the front door and out of los of drek.

Balanced my ass...grumble grumble lol

Lazy man's edit: Replace all instances of "Drek" above with "Galv"

As for Drek himself...I usually don't see people being too shy about pulling, problem is tanking him...if there's no raid-experienced tank available, I WILL pull aggro off any other tank. I have to hope the healers are paying attention and realize a boomkin is tanking since noone else can out-threat me lol

It's a battlegroup by battlegroup thing. Now, only 3 days after 2.4 mind you, my honor per hour is a little less than half what it was pre-2.4 in AV and we're STILL losing most games. AB and EOTS are now reasonable alternatives... Except Alliance have largely stopped que'ing AB since we win most of'em now.

BTW, I TOLD you that this would force horde into defending no matter what :D

[thinus]

Again, don't tell me how to play the game--I'm not telling YOU how to play the game. Since you invited me in though, I'll say a few things:

The way you play is against the spirit of the game. If you can't see that you are just deluding yourself and blinded by your own selfish greed.


Don't insult my intelligence by saying that AV is about PvP. Alterac Valley IS NOT PVP! As I said in my rebuttal to Thinus a few days ago, AV isn't where skilled PvP'ers go to test how good they are--It's where they go to farm honor to compete in the "real" PvP test of Arenas. No, they're not perfect, but they're a damn sight better than AV.

No, it is where *YOU* go to farm honor. Just because it is what *YOU* do does not make it a fact.

And I know many skilled PvPers who go to AV not to farm honor or "test how good they are". They go to AV first and foremost to *play* AV because they *enjoy* going to AV now and then. AV is *supoosed* to be about PvP. You and your kind turn it into an honor farming zerg abortion.

lol @ "real" PvP test of Arenas.
You mean, the real test of gear and class/spec balance?


AV is a zergfest. It's 40 people with no real communication or sense of teamwork trying to kill some NPC's. Sometimes you get lucky and people take the right bunkers and graveyards at the right time, and sometimes you don't. That has absolutely no bearing on my skill as a PvP'er in the slightest.

Thats because you've never actually *played* AV or wanted to play AV. AV is about a lot more than PvP. Arenas is just about killing the other team, go go e-peen. AV is about reading the map and keeping track of the opposition movement, its about disrupting their main force, protecting your assets while destroying theirs, keeping control of important strategic points to successfully launch offensives, etc.

Sometimes you pull out all the stops and need to play at the top of your game when you are the last one standing at a crucial area, other times you just try and get a bunch of the enemy chasing you for that honor kill as it breaks them away from their main offense. Use the disorganization as a weapon for the good of your team. The opposition has exactly the same weaknesses your team has.


Don't suggest to me that I should just "learn to like it" either. I hated team sports growing up--I hate depending on other people to do what they're supposed to in order to win. It's one of the major reasons I stopped raiding after TBC came out. I can show up with all my pots, flasks, consumables, best gear available to me outside of raiding etc, and STILL not succeed because I don't have control (as the guild or raid leader) of telling some slackasses to GTFO. It's the exact same thing with AV only worse, because generally speaking raiders are a little older.

Just stay the fuck out of AV. You and your kind has already done enough damage by brainwashing your BG into an honor farming mentality completely ruining any enjoyment anyone can get out of it.


In conclusion, anyone that thinks AV is real honest PvP can go choke themselves.

AV was designed as a large scale PVP BG. AV *is* what you make it. You turn it into an honor farming zerg travesty that nobody enjoys. You should be ashamed of yourself but instead here you are defending your greedy selfish attitude. Good lcuk with that. I am done here.

[Mosg2]

And good riddance! Your posts are filled with hate-mongering because people play differently and/or enjoy different aspects of the game. You offer nothing but anecdotal "Because I feel like it" drivel.

We go to AV for different reasons. Neither of our positions are any more "right" than any other persons'. You claiming so only shows your ignorance and bias.