Overestimated? Ghostcrawler says yup.

[Khatovar]

Doing my standard crawl of Google News, I actually found something under my mulitboxing section. This "article" in relation to a recent tweet by Ghostcrawler (https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/333297545390473216).

Why raiders and multiboxers are overestimated (http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/05/15/why-raiders-and-multiboxers-are-overestimated/).

Really, it doesn't say much other than people are biased and that the author remembers running into a multiboxer before. In PvP. They were annoyed and thought it was unfair. And apparently what we do is a huge, unfathomable mystery.

[ebony]

i like the line

five elemental shaman, moving through a battleground like a freight train through a poppy-field

but it feels like the old days to me when AOE was very strong in wow.

[EaTCarbS]

Quite a pointless article.

[HPAVC]

Perfect example of paid blogging. Some of the misreading of his tweet especially so (the troll attempt of the equating raiders and multiboxers somehow for example)

I am having a lot of fun in the game, still meeting new people all the time.

[Khatovar]

Yup, I had to read it over a few times to figure out if it actually said anything. I had no idea that what we do is so hard to find out about. I guess there wasn't enough time during lunch for her to visit Twitter AND Google. *golf clap*

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Vis-a-vis the "confirmation bias" angle, there's another term which farmers and many country folks will recognize: screwing yourself into the ground. Basically, if you aren't careful with PTO-shaft-driven auger bits, you can literally screw it so far into the ground that you cannot get it out with a lot of hard work. GC has been so hopelessly inured by the legions of idiots^H^H^H^H^H^H narrow-minded individuals that agree with him, it seems obvious that he'd adopt his pet position on raiding and multiboxing. I think the article does a good job of stating the main thesis of that, even if it's a bit lacking on longer explanation and backup.

[candlebox]

I need to make sure my gear box works on my auger. Broke the lower 3 point arm on my brush hog a few days ago. Need to weld that as well....sigh

[Mickthathick]

I think it's interesting that the number is so low, given that WoW at it's core is a gear treadmill funneling you towards killing Big Bosses.

I wonder what the PVP only numbers are?

[Mickthathick]

Oh and I really liked this comment:

jtrack3d 3 days ago

I do agree that it appears many people declare their opinion the majority when they can't really know.

But I also believe that with each declaration there is a real living human being that, for whatever reason, is hurting or unhappy because something they loved about the game has changed in a way that it is no longer meeting that need. It is real to them even if it isn't a majority opinion. It is still a valid and reasonable opinion to be considered.

The difficulty, however, is discovering exactly how to address that person's concern. Are they just wrong? Is the game they love now gone forever and never coming back? Do we sacrifice their wishes to the greater good?

Far too many times Ghostcrawler declares... you are wrong, you don't know, I have the numbers. What a cop out. What a failed liaison to the players. I am sure he is an intelligent man, but telling another person that makes an effort that they are just wrong, isn't the answer.

To encourage meaningful dialogue, there must be some interrogative aspect of that response that doesn't write off the individual but to say... why do you think that this is... how do you think it would be better... and if you did this, don't you think this would happen and is it good?

Do players overestimate? yes. Does Ghostcrawler wave off? yes. Are they both wrong... yes.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Far too many times Ghostcrawler declares... you are wrong, you don't know, I have the numbers. What a cop out. What a failed liaison to the players. I am sure he is an intelligent man, but telling another person that makes an effort that they are just wrong, isn't the answer.

To encourage meaningful dialogue, there must be some interrogative aspect of that response that doesn't write off the individual but to say... why do you think that this is... how do you think it would be better... and if you did this, don't you think this would happen and is it good?

IMO, GC answers the way he does out of arrogance. He's not technically wrong per se but the way he deals with customers is asinine.

Let's use the /follow removal as an example. The rationale, as I see it, is that the business decision is to not reintroduce that feature for technical (easiest way to attenuate bots) and PR (looks good to the whiny masses of angsty PVP nerds) reasons. I suspect he doesn't say this because it ends the discussion. Instead, he chooses to string everyone along with his "reasoning" which leaves the door open for changing his mind. It's no different than the business changing its mind about features but most consumer folks won't realize that. Basically, his responses seem to indicate he is playing the role of PR Flack.

[MadMilitia]

The reason they removed /follow is actually to combat bots. Think about it this way.

A bot that automatically /follows a player skips all the more advanced but easier to predict tile systems a more advanced bot uses.

This means that any pattern system they implement will miss them.

What pattern system? Something I'll address here.


Lets say for each account and character the server records an array of floats for X, Y and Z. These are the character locations, or plots if you prefer, for a time and place. For each event that is deemed worthy (such as stopping mid flight for example), a plot is recorded.

Then as the plots are recorded against new events a pattern recognition test is done against N number of previous plots where N is Blizzard's discretion. This could be designed on the client side as a simple numerical comparison that gives no identification of what it does. While those guys who run bot forums may disagree, reverse engineering the code gives them no heads up as to what an ambiguous piece of code does. They'll just placate their customer base by stating 'no, it doesn't do this' when they actually have no idea.

[ebony]

The reason they removed /follow is actually to combat bots. Think about it this way.

A bot that automatically /follows a player skips all the more advanced but easier to predict tile systems a more advanced bot uses.

This means that any pattern system they implement will miss them.

What pattern system? Something I'll address here.


Lets say for each account and character the server records an array of floats for X, Y and Z. These are the character locations, or plots if you prefer, for a time and place. For each event that is deemed worthy (such as stopping mid flight for example), a plot is recorded.

Then as the plots are recorded against new events a pattern recognition test is done against N number of previous plots where N is Blizzard's discretion. This could be designed on the client side as a simple numerical comparison that gives no identification of what it does. While those guys who run bot forums may disagree, reverse engineering the code gives them no heads up as to what an ambiguous piece of code does. They'll just placate their customer base by stating 'no, it doesn't do this' when they actually have no idea.



well we all know this just they said yes it was to stop bots but they was happy with us out of random bg's and they said this a few times. does it mean its not going to be back every? well am sure we find out.

If i does come back then its probs be bind on battlenet or something silly.

[MadMilitia]

well we all know this just they said yes it was to stop bots but they was happy with us out of random bg's and they said this a few times. does it mean its not going to be back every? well am sure we find out.

If i does come back then its probs be bind on battlenet or something silly.


Who knows really. IMO they are probably regretting those comments right about now.

Not to say their plan isn't working mind. Once Bashiok said that they are looking to push the botters into a more elaborate system which to me screams 'TILES' so they can catch them with pattern recognition.

That means in order for /follow to exist it will be tied to bnet or realID. But for them to implement something like that just for us is debatable. Are our numbers that big? If they do implement it you know the answer. If they don't, you also know the answer.

[ebony]

Who knows really. IMO they are probably regretting those comments right about now.

Not to say their plan isn't working mind. Once Bashiok said that they are looking to push the botters into a more elaborate ssystem which to me screams 'TILES' so they can catch them with pattern recognition.

That means in order for /follow to exist it will be tied to bnet or realID. But for them to implement something like that just for us is debatable. Are our numbers that big? If they do implement it you know the answer. If they don't, you also know the answer.


so we won't no the answer intill we see it. They will nerver tell us like how the removed it on the very last ptr patch before the patch went live. There no way to test battlenet on ptr do we have to try it.

[Ualaa]

They pissed off enough of the community, that while they may get some re-subs if follow is returned to battlegrounds... they'll likely have lost already permanently portion of the boxing demographic.
Who can say what the percentages are?

I'm not going to box a Blizzard game again.

[MadMilitia]

They pissed off enough of the community, that while they may get some re-subs if follow is returned to battlegrounds... they'll likely have lost already permanently portion of the boxing demographic.
Who can say what the percentages are?

I'm not going to box a Blizzard game again.


There are a number of reasons I don't sub WoW. Primarily the content left a lot to be desired for me leading up to the /follow change. I quit well before that. Then with the mess that was D3 I felt it principle to not sub WoW.

I guess everyone has their own reason but surely they have a lot of work to do to get multiboxers back.

[Chumbucket]

My thought is why pay Blizz, who begrudgingly takes our money and merely "tolerates" us, to play part of the game when you can play all of Rift for free?

[TRoN]

My thought is why pay Blizz, who begrudgingly takes our money and merely "tolerates" us, to play part of the game when you can play all of Rift for free?

This is very true. The 'only' thing that keeps me in the game is the huge ammount of everything I've put inside! Too many years, too many chars, too many money, too many bits of me...

When the follow thing exploded in our hands, I was already RAFfing onother batch of teams. And that's why I'm still bound to the game. I'm quite sure I'll try Rift after this toons were parked on level 81 as many others I probably will never play again. Who knows?

I've never multiboxed any other game. So, I can try to multibox Diablo 3 (I think I miss D3 a bit. I have my chars very well equiped. I left Diablo after they've nerfed both my DH and Mage tanks! I hate to kite...) or I can try Rift that probably will make me forget WOW at least for a while. For now, I really have to finish this RAF thing as soon as possible.

[sethlan]

This is very true. The 'only' thing that keeps me in the game is the huge ammount of everything I've put inside! Too many years, too many chars, too many money, too many bits of me...

When the follow thing exploded in our hands, I was already RAFfing onother batch of teams. And that's why I'm still bound to the game. I'm quite sure I'll try Rift after this toons were parked on level 81 as many others I probably will never play again. Who knows?

I've never multiboxed any other game. So, I can try to multibox Diablo 3 (I think I miss D3 a bit. I have my chars very well equiped. I left Diablo after they've nerfed both my DH and Mage tanks! I hate to kite...) or I can try Rift that probably will make me forget WOW at least for a while. For now, I really have to finish this RAF thing as soon as possible.

I agree with tron , same here I put crap ton of time into wow to just quit, I'm thinking to cancel all my subs and start boxing rift as well I wanna box 5 or 1o minimum. Probably I just leave one account open in wow just to check what change , no reason to get upset or think what blizz did to us or to stop bots .

[Apps]

I'm not going to box a Blizzard game again.

Hey Ualaa, how you doing?

I actually came back to WoW, JUST to prove that this minor setback doesn't kill off MBers in PVP. We did it in SWTOR, and we can do it here.

[ebony]

i find rift did not keep me in the game the game play is a little meh for me the classes are not wow classes. the pvp i did not not really feel like pvp all i see is small bg's nothing big like av! it just seemed a little off for me.

and thats saying if they not going to change the TOS on Muticlients when it goes f2p i was on the live chat with the devs and they said they keeping it open for now.

[Palee]

Hey Ualaa, how you doing?

I actually came back to WoW, JUST to prove that this minor setback doesn't kill off MBers in PVP. We did it in SWTOR, and we can do it here.

I don't mean to sound mean or anything, but I think this is more like denial than trying to prove anything. You're addicted, that's why you came back :)

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Hey Ualaa, how you doing?

I actually came back to WoW, JUST to prove that this minor setback doesn't kill off MBers in PVP. We did it in SWTOR, and we can do it here.

Just to throw in my 2 cents, I don't think it was ever a case of "can" as much as a case of "it has become difficult enough/painful enough for me to make it unworthy of continued investment." ;)

[JohnGabriel]

Its not challenging, its painful.

[F9thRet]

IMO, GC answers the way he does out of arrogance. He's not technically wrong per se but the way he deals with customers is asinine.

Let's use the /follow removal as an example. The rationale, as I see it, is that the business decision is to not reintroduce that feature for technical (easiest way to attenuate bots) and PR (looks good to the whiny masses of angsty PVP nerds) reasons. I suspect he doesn't say this because it ends the discussion. Instead, he chooses to string everyone along with his "reasoning" which leaves the door open for changing his mind. It's no different than the business changing its mind about features but most consumer folks won't realize that. Basically, his responses seem to indicate he is playing the role of PR Flack.

This has been my own experience as well.

Don't get me wrong, I have enough time wearing big boy pants, that if someone where to come right out, and say, "We are going to be doing X" in such and such game, or even in debate (Which I do a lot of in my spare time), I can respect that. What I can not, and do not respect, is someone coming from an elitist attitude but not backing up their points with facts.

Sure, IT's none of my business what any number in say WOW is, But then , one better have a damn good argument, or otherwise they better share their data to back it up. Ya know, Kinda like the IRS in recent news. (Yeah, I went there , sue me. ) :D :D :D

Stephen

[F9thRet]

They pissed off enough of the community, that while they may get some re-subs if follow is returned to battlegrounds... they'll likely have lost already permanently portion of the boxing demographic.
Who can say what the percentages are?

I'm not going to box a Blizzard game again.


Once again, I am of the same mind. With one caveat, and that depends on whatever the hell TITAN turns out to be.

Way too many other games that I can box, and am enjoying, from the old EQ/EQ2, to Rifts, to SWTOR, to I'm hoping to find that new game from the makers of the witcher online and boxable (Cybersomethng or other).

Stephen

[moog]

Once again, I am of the same mind. With one caveat, and that depends on whatever the hell TITAN turns out to be.

Don't hold your breath!
http://www.bluesnews.com/s/142074/blizzard-confirms-titan-setback

[Apps]

Just to throw in my 2 cents, I don't think it was ever a case of "can" as much as a case of "it has become difficult enough/painful enough for me to make it unworthy of continued investment." ;)

Yanno Ugh, you make a good point. That statement was near 90% of the mindset for the example of SWTOR which I mentioned. Could be done, just didn't find the appeal anymore. I wonder how many of the million three, subs were a result of bot accounts and MBers dropping multisubs. Very interesting.

I'm still not lettin this go yet. I believe the PVP portion of MBing WoW is significant enough, there will be work arounds to make it less painful. Annoying is likely the end result.

[Sam DeathWalker]

I'm having a blast, doing the 4 world boss every week, dealing with my 1000 member guild, doing AH and the tillers farm. Working on trying to solo Galleon, got him to 265m (he starts at 320m)... slow but sure.

[F9thRet]

Don't hold your breath!
http://www.bluesnews.com/s/142074/blizzard-confirms-titan-setback

WoW 2016, hell I don't even know what I'm doing tomorrow. Thanks for the heads up Moog.

[Palee]

Oh man, I was hoping Titan comes out sooner so that WoW maybe goes free to play...

[Apps]

I'm conceding.

While, "yes", I could get the IWT and dps FTL works just fine, the ole.. "Just kill the lead one, and the Multiboxer is useless".. has reared its head. The first time I got the team in, and IWT working, soon as the fear bomb happened, I recovered fine, but killing the lead, .... I neglected to set up further IWT to other leads. Fail on my part.

Needless to say, the window swap for ISBoxer and new keymapping per window was the solution, but a new key to press was annoying.

So... I concede. GG blizz you win. Too much work and annoying. Not worth the hassle. Now, did someone say Rift was F2P?

[FiveXFun]

Rift becomes F2P on the 12th. I started playing it about a month ago and am very much enjoying it. The leveling experience is amazingly good compared to WoW. I started out on one team of five doing quests up to level 18 or so. Much like WoW, there are a number of collection quests that are pretty annoying. Rift has IWT, so getting or completing quests isn't too bad, but leveling was similar in speed to WoW.

Then I discovered Instant Adventures. They are glorious and a huge innovation over anything I saw in WoW. Once you party (or raid) up, your whole team is instantly teleported somewhere in the world and automatically given a quest like kill 30 spiders. You join other people doing the quest as well, then have a ton of people all working on the same goal. When it is done, you automatically get quest reward experience and get a new quest. The army of folks mounts up, runs a short distance, then starts on the next quest. No obtaining quests, no turning them in, no choosing quest rewards, all of that is automatic and you can continually focus on completing quest objectives. You automatically get class and level appropriate quest rewards in your bags.

The exp is better than regular questing, the quest variety is plentiful, you get to work with others, you get to see the world of Rift, which was all brand new to me - what's not to like?

Anyway, once I figured that out, I quickly got another five boxes and started ten boxing - very little additional effort to level ten instead of five. My teams are now over level 40 and I'm having a great time. I have fiund Rift very similar to WoW but more fun and free.