Use of "offensive" language on the forum

[Owltoid]

Blast3r has asked (demanded?) many times that posters not use the term "rape". Personally, I'm not offended by the word, or the many other words that would be extremely offensive if taken in the most negative and literal way possible, and would prefer to not continually be reprimanded. Can we use this thread, or anther thread someone creates, for the discussion regarding appropriate language? Until such time that there is an official post requesting me to not use that language, I will continue to do so... I'd just like threads to stop being interrupted.

If it's the view of the moderators/site owner that language some may find offensive be avoided, then I'll gladly abide - their forum, their rules.

[Vecter]

I don't think any of us want to get into the censorship game. If someone expresses a concern we should all be sensitive to that, but again that will be up to each of every one of you, as moderators we will moderate based on the content of the topic. Obviously if things are done maliciously we will step in.

[luxlunae]

Since a mod replied to this thread without banning or locking it I'll jump in with what I said before when my post was one of those deleted from the other thread for being offtopic.

Owltoid I was not by any means suggesting that you should be forbidden from using a word that I found "offensive" (I hate that word). I just wanted to explain something from the perspective of a female gamer and a woman. I also thought that you might like to know that I was someone that had come on your twitch.tv feed and interacted with, and presumably you want people to come on your twitch feed, so to think about how you speak might effect that.

I live in the US and one in four women in the US will be a victim of rape in her lifetime. I have two sisters and a mother, we match that statistic. I was recently talking to one of my female friends online (who herself has three sisters) and for her family, again, 1 in 4. There is an ever present, small amount of fear of rape for us ALWAYS. Every dark parking lot, every late night walk home, always a small element of risk. I've only ever heard one female gamer use the term "rape" online, and because of conversations that I've had with other female gamers over the years, I know this small gut clench when I see the word is normal. Rationally I know that now having reached the age of 30 without it happening to me, the chance of being attacked and emotionally traumatized in this way has severely gone down, but it doesn't change the fear associated with that word. Most women who have spent any amount of time online (gaming at least) have had a stalker or two, so it isn't ridiculous to consider "scary" language in the gaming world scary. I once quit wow for several months after someone started harassing me out of game (who I had never given my contact information to).

Now let me compare it to some other words that are offensive. If you use the word "faggot", I find that annoying, but the only people I would ever say anything about it to would be a friend I was gaming with a lot that used it, because I find it mildly annoying, it doesn't have a strong response from me. I think it makes you sound tacky if you say it, but so be it. Be tacky.

Some people find the word "genocide" offensive, you can say you want to genocide all the orcs in pandaria and I wouldn't even notice.

I don't believe in censoring speech because it upsets someone, but I did want to express why we find it upsetting, that its not a remote impossibility like maybe it is for you. I like being a member of this community, and have been here for years, and I generally don't speak up about this unless someone else does first, but I just wanted to contribute something.

[F9thRet]

I wasn't wanting it banned from use, or the like, I was just asking how the word itself could be taken, other than offensively. It's not like one can go and order a kids meal with a McRape on the side. Any version of it, or scenario, I can come up with, makes it seem offensive. If there is another definition of it, I'm at a loss.

Stephen

[thefunk]

People using such distinct terms regularly clearly:

a) do not understand their meaning
b) Potentially have no sensitivity towards other people
c) Have limited vocabulary

At the same time, the internet has liberated all taboo topics to such an extent that anything is now acceptable. I lost a little of myself when someone showed me 4chan and now understand why words like rape are so commonplace in society it's virtually acceptable.

Now because it's virtually acceptable, it shouldn't be a shock to anyone - so the fact someone has requested on these boards to stop using this term is, in my opinion, a positive thing from a point of view of morality and should be applauded. We are, after all, adults playing computer games. Self-governance, rather than asking mods/admin to moderate.

More generic terms like fuck are better ;)

[Owltoid]

a) I understand the literal meaning, but there is also a common use meaning. In this case, as Zenga pointed out in a deleted post, "rape" has a number of meanings, not all of which deal with forced sexual behavior
b) Sensitivity can be taken to an extreme, to the point where effectively expressing yourself is impossible
c) Sorry, not in my case
d) It's socially accepted and a way to effectively communicate with the audience, while alienating a minority

[luxlunae]

d) It's socially accepted and a way to effectively communicate with the audience, while alienating a minority

And why do you think that female gamers remain a minority?

[Owltoid]

And why do you think that female gamers remain a minority?

I'm sure the language used plays a small part, but I doubt it's a driving force.

[Shodokan]

And why do you think that female gamers remain a minority?

In the grand scheme of things a majority of the gaming subcultures where rape is used a lot (fighting games/shooting games/competitive mmos/mobas being a really large culprit... and I'm a competitive fighting game player myself) are male dominated with very very small female representation. As such communities create their own meaning for words and are not intended to offend or be taken literally... for a lack of better term it is slang.

That being said a majority of us do have the vocabulary to use other words to describe the same thing but many of us will gravitate towards using language that we find used in our daily gaming experiences. Will that offend some people? Probably... but just like the word "cunt" is severely offensive to many (women in particular) in places like Australia it is a word of endearment towards good friends (I have about 20 aussi friends who use this with me weekly). Just like Nigga/Nigger used between friends normally of african american descent (though used a lot by latin americans as well) and has been desensitized over time. (Also extremely prevalent in the communities I'm apart of outside of here)

Language is expression, if you don't like how someone expresses themselves then ignore them in my opinion.

This isn't aimed towards you or Blast3r in particular... just my point of view.

[Vecter]

In the grand scheme of things a majority of the gaming subcultures where rape is used a lot (fighting games/shooting games/competitive mmos/mobas being a really large culprit... and I'm a competitive fighting game player myself) are male dominated with very very small female representation. As such communities create their own meaning for words and are not intended to offend or be taken literally... for a lack of better term it is slang.

That being said a majority of us do have the vocabulary to use other words to describe the same thing but many of us will gravitate towards using language that we find used in our daily gaming experiences. Will that offend some people? Probably... but just like the word "cunt" is severely offensive to many (women in particular) in places like Australia it is a word of endearment towards good friends (I have about 20 aussi friends who use this with me weekly). Just like Nigga/Nigger used between friends normally of african american descent (though used a lot by latin americans as well) and has been desensitized over time. (Also extremely prevalent in the communities I'm apart of outside of here)

Language is expression, if you don't like how someone expresses themselves then ignore them in my opinion.

This isn't aimed towards you or Blast3r in particular... just my point of view.

I find myself trying to avoid using terms that I consider demeaning or reprehensible; gay, rape, nigger, fag, cunt, etc (only typed here for example) While some may feel using "rape" in gaming situations is socially acceptable, I feel it is not. Placing the severity of what rape is into something that is generally done in a fun environment (such as gaming) just diminishes the impact that using "rape" should have. Almost like a cry wolf type thing. It is a serious situation around the world. As a community I feel we can rise above these so called accepted behaviors and CHANGE them.

But as a moderator I place freedom of expression above my own personal feelings. Unless rules are developed people can choose to express themselves how they want as long as doing so is on topic and is not done so to elicit responses that just create more drama or infighting.

[zenga]

My first reaction was 'grow a pair, but 'someone' might find that offensive as well. There is little to add to shodokan his post. For being 16y old he shows a lot of wisdom!

[Shodokan]

I find myself trying to avoid using terms that I consider demeaning or reprehensible; gay, rape, nigger, fag, cunt, etc (only typed here for example) While some may feel using "rape" in gaming situations is socially acceptable, I feel it is not. Placing the severity of what rape is into something that is generally done in a fun environment (such as gaming) just diminishes the impact that using "rape" should have. Almost like a cry wolf type thing. It is a serious situation around the world. As a community I feel we can rise above these so called accepted behaviors and CHANGE them.

But as a moderator I place freedom of expression above my own personal feelings. Unless rules are developed people can choose to express themselves how they want as long as doing so is on topic and is not done so to elicit responses that just create more drama or infighting.

Most of the time things like that (rape in specific) are used are to describe the demoralization of the opposition, which i guess in essence is part of the feelings that one has when something as unfortunate as that happens to someone.

That being said though from what I've seen and how I've used it (or others) was never to elicit responses that create drama... more along the lines of someone decided they didn't like the usage of the word PERIOD and let their opinions be known on the matter which then frustrated people because of the adherence to the wishes of one/few person(s). It's a double edged sword really.

I mean we can all try to refrain from derogatory/demeaning words... it is someone else's forum and we don't have free speech if they decide against it.

@Zenga I'm 24 man.

[Multibocks]

TBH I don't really care for the mods editing swear words out of my posts. I feel like I'm back in Sunday school.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

I don't really find words like the ones noted above personally offensive when encountered on the great Fount of Wisdom that is teh interwebs. :p

Conversely, I agree that using those words as overly-obvious literary hyperbole or emphasis tends to indicate a crass and/or lazy approach to vocabulary, though I will admit to being guilty of occasional pedantry with regards to peoples' communications skills. ;)

Then again, I don't re-read the entire meaning of something someone wrote purely because they used a particular word where I might have selected a more widely-appropriate (and possibly even more descriptive) term or phrase.

Ultimately, it is up to the end user to police their own input. People make invalid assumptions _EVERY_ _DAMN_ _DAY_ about the state I was born in, the state I live in, the country I am proud to have served, and my mental capacity to decide what objects, substances or behaviors will cause me good or harm. I don't knee-jerk respond to every one of them with flame rants, regardless of how much I might like to -- I just ignore the post and move on. For really offensive things, there are any number of moderation contacts if it's really bad, or for general applications, various word- or content-filter options available to any end user with enough brains to figure out how to multibox. ;) (Just so I'm not being misconstrued here, I am NOT calling out anyone on these forums in the previous paragraph. I'm actually agreeing with folks like blast3r and others from a moral standpoint. I just disagree on whether we as a forum need to globally filter every single technical violation of policy and couth versus handling the more egregious violations when individually brought to the mods attention.)

883
Be well!

[Mosg2]

I generally don't get involved in any sort of opinion posts that don't have to do with something I'm terribly familiar with--The good news is that I'm a linguist by trade :)

There's a vast gulf between derogatory words whose sole purpose is to demean a particular group (eg faggot, nigger, spick) and a descriptive word that has a particular connotation. I love saying things in interesting ways. It's one of the reasons I enjoy my work as much as I do. With that in mind, using the word rape to describe what I did to some hapless Horde who were making trouble for friends is totally acceptable. Calling them niggers, on the other hand, is pretty insensitive.

[F9thRet]

Meh, The only two definitions I know are sexual assault, so I suppose I could just train my mind, that it is a lesser abuse, like in the middle ages, when it was more a crime against the man who owned the woman. Or just think of Mustard. I think I'll do that. next time someone uses it, I'll just figure they have some weird fetish for Rape oil from mustard plant leaves. :P Stephen

[Khatovar]

For me, as a mod, the key is that we are a community. People come back here repeatedly over a long term, and that breeds familiarity. People feel comfortable enough to say whatever and not feel like they can only "talk shop", and that's a good thing. But on the other hand, we have to keep this place friendly and respectful, not just to new members, but to all members. If someone has a problem with something like this, they shouldn't feel like they're going to get flamed to hell and back over it.

In that vein, we don't particularly have to have a clear-cut list of what is and is not acceptable. There's some leeway involved because this is a community of, for the most part, adults. Being an adult-centric community doesn't just mean it's ok to drop the occasional f-bomb or send each other racy Christmas presents, it also means accepting that there's a lot of other people here, including younger people, and not everyone's views on everything is going to mesh. There's a sense of responsibility to make sure that this site is both respectable and relaxed. Sometimes that means mods have to step in and sometimes it means letting things slide.


Until such time that there is an official post requesting me to not use that language, I will continue to do so... I'd just like threads to stop being interrupted.

This right here is what distresses me. As far as "officially ok" discussions or terms, what exactly makes my opinion, or MiRai's, Svper's, Lax's, Vecter's or any other "higher ranked" poster's point of view any more valid or important than Blast3r's or anyone else who raises an issue? Is it really so important to you that you have to use a term that you know full well upsets someone just because it's not spelled out verbatim in the rules?

If we're really arguing the rape thing, I'll go there. As Luxlunae stated, yes, there are women that are regular members on this forum. Hi, how ya doin'? I'm Kate. And as Luxlunae also pointed out, things like sexual assault unfortunately aren't a far-removed concern for women in general. Sadly, it's rather a sick rite of passage in my family - out of 6 female members of my generation there's only 2 who have made it to adulthood unscathed, and I'm not so sure about one of them. I am not among the unscathed.

In my case, I kind of consider myself lucky because I was very young when it started and it wasn't really violent. I suppose you could say it was something I was groomed towards, so it wasn't traumatic for me in the same way that your typical as-seen-on-tv incident is. But, yeah, it messed me up. It's been more than 15 years since I last had to deal with such things and I've got a pretty good dissociation from it. I've had a lifetime of practice with biting down on my issues and refusing to let it be everything that defines me. But it wasn't always that way, and like I said, I consider myself lucky, and even with all that I still can't stop myself from shaking, chain smoking and trying not to throw up while writing this post.

I don't know Blast3r's situation or anyone else's for that matter, but I do know what I've been through, so, yeah, I do know exactly where other people are coming from and what they have to go through in this situation or any other situation where people are using an ugly term as something innocuous.

For me, personally, it's water off a ducks back mostly. I've been "one of the guys" long enough that very little phases me and to know that in most cases it is innocuous because most people don't have to think of things like that as anything more than a stupid trendy term. Generally I ignore it when I've seen it here and try to stay out of it altogether both "professionally" and for my own sanity. But in this case, I've been moved from turning a blind eye to becoming upset and angry. You don't want your threads to be interrupted? I'd rather not be reminded of my past and then had it pointed to and mocked because there's no explicit rule about it and everyone should just get over it because it's just a word to you. It isn't just a word to me, it was my life for more than 10 years, not just some stupid thing pixels do to each other in a video game.

[zenga]

If I see someone in trade chat selling a Jewelled Panther for 20k, while the mats alone cost more than double and he is basically selling a duped item, and I see he has no clue about the origin, I just whisper the guy, explain him why I believe it's a bad thing for the game and point out the risks. Rather than calling him out in public for idiot. And a good bunch of them understand it, which hopefully makes them aware for future items that are too cheap for being true.
= raising awareness

It would have been as simple as sending me a simple PM on this forum, explaining why you think it's bad to use 'rape' in that context. Rather than calling me out for it in public typing in capitals, projecting your morals as fact/truth. Why would one deliberately use words that will hurt someone, when that person put an effort into explain his/her reasonings? Can't guarantee that I'll never happen again, definitely not for a non native speaker who translates on the fly as he/she writes a post, influenced by both his/her native vocabulary and the foreign language one. On top of that a lot of non native English speakers are influenced for a large part by what they hear on TV, movies, shows, music and whatever else they read on the internet. I'm almost inclined to say that it's utterly disrespectful to expect non native English speakers to be able to gouge every context of a word. I truly wonder if most native English speakers are able to communicate at the same level in a foreign language as most non native English speakers communicate in English. And then imagine that you put an effort into writing proper language in that foreign language and someone all in a sudden calls you out in a dramatic way for using a word (and turns to be projecting his/her own idea about the usage of the word, rather than what a dictionary or linguists say).

[Oatboat]

My thoughts on the topic are this. Would you say these things in the real world to strangers? No... then why would you say them to strangers on the internet?

[Owltoid]

This right here is what distresses me. As far as "officially ok" discussions or terms, what exactly makes my opinion, or MiRai's, Svper's, Lax's, Vecter's or any other "higher ranked" poster's point of view any more valid or important than Blast3r's or anyone else who raises an issue? Is it really so important to you that you have to use a term that you know full well upsets someone just because it's not spelled out verbatim in the rules?

Threads were being derailed by this subject and neither side was willing to change. I was simply saying that the behavior was not against the "rules" and it would continue until an official request to stop. Sensitivity vs censorship is a lengthy debate, and not one that needs to happen in every thread that has "offensive" language.

And yes, it is important to me to be able to express myself as I see fit. I value liberty a great deal. However, I am willing to abide by the rules - I just want the derailing to stop if nothing is in actual violation.

ETA: it's important to note that none of the "offensive" language was used to hurt someone and it was all used in the way gamers often use slang. I find others using the phrase "that's gay" to express something is negative as offensive, but I do not derail threads on my crusade. I simply ignore them. If they were using the term to expressly attack another poster, then I'd report it to the mods.

[Starbuck_Jones]

Unfortunately that word right now is simply part of the gaming and competitive gaming culture and has been for a long while. About six months ago there was a lot of discussion from the e-sports community about that word and others that come up quite often during players commentary of their games while streaming as well as e-sports casters while they are doing their shows. There have been a few instances of sponsorships lost or players released from their teams over the use of certain words but most of the push has simply been in attempts to mainstream and legitimatize e-sports and help it grow.

I think that is where a lot of people get it wrong. Instead of trying to create rules or dragging everything into a censorship or freedom of speech debate the focus should be on raising the professionalism across the board. You can't have Ryan Seacrest without Howard Stern.

[Multibocks]

My thoughts on the topic are this. Would you say these things in the real world to strangers? No... then why would you say them to strangers on the internet?
I swear all the time in the real world. If they don't like it then they can stop listening.

[zenga]

Saw this and found it fitting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=R7HbCkU_-cM#!

[Chivalrous]

Bravo Khatover.

The way I see it...
From the dawn of man rape was a fact of life for females. Just very recently, it is changing for the better--this is the best time to be alive for women, minorities, and handicapped people in most parts of the world. Yet, a boy on the Internet can still ruin a persons night by saying one word that triggers a response in their brain to recall a memory best forgotten, to panic someone who should be enjoying theirself, and this should shameful--if shame existed on the Internet, or in our communities then this wouldn't be a problem.


A real man or woman with true values and morals doesnt stoop to these vernacular lows, because he or she knows that it isn't right in a world where our brains and hearts have supposedly taken precedence over our baser instincts. The ones that do are children and must be regarded as such. Those that say "grow a pair" or "sissy!" Do not understand its not that easy to disregard a traumatic experience. It would be far easier for them to just keep their mouth shut than for a victim to be okay with being reminded everytime some stoner gets a killing blow in Arathi basin... Honestly, the world is changing. We need to change with it, and change quickly. This is all a symptom of greater problem, and that problem is we are without shame.

[Chivalrous]

I swear all the time in the real world. If they don't like it then they can stop listening.


If it we lived in the medieval ages, I could legally challenge and duel you to the death for offending me if I took your swearing the wrong way. If we were Vikings I could fight and kill you, and so long as your offense was witnessed I could get off Scott free--my point is, the world is better for you and your swearing today, maybe you should do your part to make it better for others.

I curse and swear like a pregnant sailor, but if I am in public I swear not at all--because I am aware it could offend somebody. I try to care about strangers, I often can't care, but I try. I think just being thoughtful makes you a better person. Just like peanut butter makes a cookie better.

[JohnGabriel]

My nephews were always saying stuff like "Dude thats gay!" and it took a long time to get them to stop. Whatever you learn in school sticks with you I guess.

[Oatboat]

I swear all the time in the real world. If they don't like it then they can stop listening.

Your rights end where mine begin. I'm not telling you how to live your life or how to talk, I'm just asking you to take other people into consideration. I wouldn't think this is a tough concept but it seems like its struck a nerve with some people. You're probably the guy that answers a phone call in the middle of a movie.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

On top of that a lot of non native English speakers are influenced for a large part by what they hear on TV, movies, shows, music and whatever else they read on the internet. I'm almost inclined to say that it's utterly disrespectful to expect non native English speakers to be able to gouge every context of a word. I truly wonder if most native English speakers are able to communicate at the same level in a foreign language as most non native English speakers communicate in English. And then imagine that you put an effort into writing proper language in that foreign language and someone all in a sudden calls you out in a dramatic way for using a word (and turns to be projecting his/her own idea about the usage of the word, rather than what a dictionary or linguists say).I might grant you a general exception for the above (in fact, I'd say we do that every day; just look at ebony's posts lol!). The word "rape," though, I do not believe fits that exception. Unless you've been living under a rock, you HAD to know about the negative connotations of the term. I can't imagine this is the first time you've ever heard anyone complain about casual use, especially in a congratulatory or smiling-with-pride-for-your-accomplishments manner. And again, there are a TON of alternatives to that word, the use of any of which might have pointed you out as not being part of the 12-year-old point-and-click-warrior crowd.

It's not like we don't understand the English language is littered with pejorative landmines. It's that we (or most of us anyway) understand that certain very commonly misused words are a sign that you have made a choice with regards to your vocabulary. That choice comes with consequences. You can wail and moan and gnash your teeth that someone expressed disapproval of your choice or you can modify your behavior accordingly by either ignoring the people complaining or not using the word. Trying to make it out like you're being abused because you didn't know any better is...puerile.

[moog]

I wouldn't mix with people in real life who mis-use that word so badly as to apply it to a video game.
On here, they just go on the ignore list.

[Owltoid]

<message deleted> Not worth it - some peeps are just self righteous pricks.

[thefunk]

Hang on, something doesn't make sense to me

Someone used a derogatory term in a thread, Someone else requested we don't use it on this forum. You then start this thread to have a discussion where people are discussing moral values, and now you're taking one of these comments personally.

The real question here is this. Will you please refrain from using the word rape on these forums. If yes, thank you very much we all move on. If no, why not?

[Wokomehee]

You dont need to be very god at english to associate the word rape, with... well, rape. As a female gamer, i dont like that word used in gaming terms. And just so you guys knows, rape is something women have to deal with every day. Cant walk home alone, cant join everything we want, we are scared at times etc. And if you dont get raped yourself, some of your friends or family does. You guys probably dont think of this things when seeing or hearing that word. We are a bunch of women in here (/hello girls), you can count on several of us have horrible memories associated with that word. Just my thoughts...

[Owltoid]

Hang on, something doesn't make sense to me

Someone used a derogatory term in a thread, Someone else requested we don't use it on this forum. You then start this thread to have a discussion where people are discussing moral values, and now you're taking one of these comments personally.

The real question here is this. Will you please refrain from using the word rape on these forums. If yes, thank you very much we all move on. If no, why not?

The word rape is used throughout the gaming community. Just like "get shit on", it's not referring to the actual act. I'm pretty sure peeps know enough to not take things literally.

This thread was started so we could at least get the discussion in a place where it's not disrupting threads.

What other words would you liked banned? The list could get pretty long.

[thefunk]

You misunderstand. There is no "banning" requested here, this isn't an attack on "freedom" or civil rights etc... . Merely a request for respect and manners within one of the best communities around.

[Owltoid]

You misunderstand. There is no "banning" requested here, this isn't an attack on "freedom" or civil rights etc... . Merely a request for respect and manners within one of the best communities around.

I assume your respect and courtesy extend to not having other users derail threads by complaining, in all caps, that others used the word "rape" when discussing killing an opponent?

[Chivalrous]

I assume your respect and courtesy extend to not having other users derail threads by complaining, in all caps, that others used the word "rape" when discussing killing an opponent?


You're a higher primate, you are blessed with the ability to reason and logic--therefore, why would you continue using a word that is documented to be able upset victims of sexual violence? To use that word knowing this is to show a blatant disregard to another's welfare and serves nobody, and makes you look like a juvenile.


Think about why gamers started using the word to define killing someone?


A) they don't want to die
B) they are killed anyway against their will
C) they were unable to change this outcome, they were made powerless before their opponent, they fought but were defeated.
D) they respawn and move on with life.
E) on vent or in chat some kid says "I fucking raped that noob!" And everyone agrees and laughs.


--he didn't literally rape him, but it has things in common with real rape. Lets see...


A) they don't want sex
B) they are made to have it against their will
C) they were unable to change this outcome, they were powerless before their opponent, they fought but were defeated.
--
D) They are scarred paycologically and will suffer to suppress/overcome this crime.
--
E) on vent or in chat some kid says "I fucking raped that noob!" And now, the victim HAS to remember a real world pain in a game that they play for fun and escapism.


so screw kids that use the word, it isn't funny, it isn't right, it never will be regardless of whether it is or isn't part of the gaming vernacular. If you use it knowing the effect it can have on a victim then you are not an evolved human, you are a monkey.

[Chivalrous]

It doesn't make you weaker to not use the word, it makes you stronger. It is strange our society thinks its the opposite.

and if the word isn't used threads aren't derailed. Nobody is hurt.

[Owltoid]

You're a higher primate

You offended my creationist views


makes you look like a juvenile.

You hurt my feelings with name calling.


E) on vent or in chat some kid says "I fucking raped that noob!" And now, the victim HAS to remember a real world pain in a game that they play for fun and escapism.

The victim can choose to not associate with those people, through not playing with them or putting them on ignore in areas like these forums.


so screw kids

You just brought up the memory of some people being raped as kids - you just used a different phrase than rape. Who is the insensitive guy now, Champ?


you are not an evolved human, you are a monkey.

Once again, you offended my creationist views.

...sure does seem difficult to not offend anyone, even for the self-righteous.

[Chivalrous]

You're right that people are always going to be offended, that is inevitable--but screw is a euphemism for fuck, which is not the same as rape. It does not trigger the same emotional response in a victim of sexual violence that the word rape does. You can't eliminate every word, but you can try your damnedest to not use certain ones if they hurt people.

As to ignoring ppl that say it--oft times the damage us already done, it's a trigger word. You can't ignore a gunman if they point a gun and pull the trigger, it's the same concept. I dealt with a young girl who was raped by 3 school boys a few years ago and she was fragile as hell, you think if she's in a raid and someone says rape she wouldn't immidietly think of the events they occurred that dark night? She might not say anything, she might tough it out...

but wouldn't it be better if the trigger hadn't been pulled?

As for self righteous...

self-right·eous (slfrchs)
adj.
1. Piously sure of one's own righteousness; moralistic.
2. Exhibiting pious self-assurance: self-righteous remarks.

probably so, I'm not pious--I'm an atheist, but I will vouch for my morals. I try to make the world around me better. I defend whoever I can, and I am not ashamed of it. You and anyone else can call me names for it, but if you don't stand for what you believe in you will fall.

[Owltoid]

You're right that people are always going to be offended, that is inevitable--but screw is a euphemism for fuck, which is not the same as rape. It does not trigger the same emotional response in a victim of sexual violence that the word rape does. You can't eliminate every word, but you can try your damnedest to not use certain ones if they hurt people.

So "screw kids" = "fuck kids" and you still don't see the irony? Ok.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

I like this game. I wanna see who ends up with the most straw men (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) killed once the argument settles down.

[Owltoid]

I like this game. I wanna see who ends up with the most straw men (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) killed once the argument settles down.

At least it's focused in this thread and not infecting every other thread where someone says something objectionable to someone.

[Chivalrous]

That's really all you have to say? Why is it so hard for you to agree that we are better off not using the word in question?

and great job taking what I said out of context, let me clarify.

screw kids=fuck any person who uses the word rape knowing it brings up horrible memories for certain people, and u call them kids because an adult would know better.

so in that context, screw kids.


and earlier when I offended your creationist views? Good. You're an idiot if you think the earth was made 10,000 years ago. Ill offend that all day long since you have the gall to say saying rape is okay in a video game.

[zenga]

Unless you've been living under a rock, you HAD to know about the negative connotations of the term. I can't imagine this is the first time you've ever heard anyone complain about casual use, especially in a congratulatory or smiling-with-pride-for-your-accomplishments manner. And again, there are a TON of alternatives to that word, the use of any of which might have pointed you out as not being part of the 12-year-old point-and-click-warrior crowd.
...
Trying to make it out like you're being abused because you didn't know any better is...puerile.


I don't think I've been living under a rock. The English we see/read is a very colourful language. I speak Flemish (which is like Dutch), French, English and German, and English is by miles the language that uses the most colourful adjectives in my experience. Your average somewhat decent movie should show that clearly. I raid with a few native English speakers, one of them is a Canadian expat working as a CFO in Paris. Not your average 12y old, but one with a phd. He is our raidleader, and pretty much every other raid it goes like ... '... and the we pop lust and rape those adds'. When I RBG exactly the same thing. The word rape is so commonly used to describe a particular gaming situation that has absolutely nothing to do with the criminal sexual context. And definitely not only by 12y olds.

I can give you several examples (that are really hard to translate) of words that got a different meaning / context over time, in the languages I'm familiar with. Every year a ton of new words are being added to the 'standard' dictionary. The standard dictionary is not a group of people who made up a list of official words. It's a constant work in progress, and one - if not the main - of the criteria is how widely used a certain word is. About a decade ago in Holland, young adults/teens would use the word cancer to curse/express disappointment. Over time it became more and more accepted as a curse, and people no longer automatically link it to the disease over there. Just like the evolution of 'god damned ' (in different languages/cultures), where the problem is no longer that you use god damn instead of an alternative, but whether you curse or not curse.

25y ago I went to a catholic school. Back then there were still a lot of mission posts in Africa. The nuns themselves referred to the blacks as 'the little niggers' (in my language then, negerkes). It was not meant disrespectful in any way. Until years later some goof decided that all the blacks are offended by using the word 'neger' (nigger). So all in a sudden we could no longer refer to our black friends the way we described them for over 200 years, and a way that never caused a single problem.

Every day I hear words that could remind me to some though situation in my life, be it on the news, on a forum, in a game, ... I know someone who was murdered by her jealous boyfriend. But when my arena partner suggests to kill the mage, I don't tell him to use a different word. Life ain't faceroll, and there are plenty of bad situations people have to deal with. You, me, everyone has most likely had his/her bowl of shit we had to deal with. Telling someone to not use a widely used word in a totally different context, knowing that it has several official meanings, just for the sake of your own problems is nothing but emo bitching in my opinion. And creating drama. Definitely when done in such an arrogant way.

[Owltoid]

That's really all you have to say? Why is it so hard for you to agree that we are better off not using the word in question?

and great job taking what I said out of context, let me clarify.

This is fantastic - you really don't get it... you're defending your term because I took it out of context, yet attacking the slang of gamers in which you're taking their terms out of context. Unless you think after a guy killed an internet warlock he really did rape him.


screw kids=fuck any person who uses the word rape knowing it brings up horrible memories for certain people, and u call them kids because an adult would know better.

Plenty of adults, such as myself, disagree with you. So your generalization that an adult would know better is wrong.


and earlier when I offended your creationist views? Good. You're an idiot if you think the earth was made 10,000 years ago. Ill offend that all day long since you have the gall to say saying rape is okay in a video game.

I'm not a creationist - I was trying to prove a point. But all is lost on you, anyway.

[Chivalrous]

Owltoid, we aren't going to agree so I'm not going to bother to respond further after this post. You can say what you want, but in the end I feel like you're wrong about the subject originally presented. I've never been a strong debater, i am not a smart man. I am a roughneck, farmer, volunteer fire fighter, and gamer--this shows are stupid i am, I work my ass off for little reward other than the personal satisfaction of a hard days work, then I pick a hobby that requires an Internet connection in the worst spot on earth for Internet... Anyway, I always felt outclassed in any debate, but I stand firm in my belief that the word rape shouldn't be used so casually in any setting, especially a video game or gaming forum.

-----------------

Nice post Zenga. That being said, I think you're wrong too. People aren't emo bitches for trying to tell you that a certain word offends them, they are asking you to refrain from saying it where they can see or hear it because it hurts them. If you were empathetic or thoughtful you could just keep that in mind and ... Not say it? Sure, they can block you, but maybe they don't want to have to do that. Maybe they like talking to you most times? Just have a heart, you've obviously got a good brain.

[zenga]

Nice post Zenga. That being said, I think you're wrong too. People aren't emo bitches for trying to tell you that a certain word offends them, they are asking you to refrain from saying it where they can see or hear it because it hurts them.
The initial reply was a tat bit different than 'simply asking me to refrain from using it', nor were most follow up posts.


If you were empathetic or thoughtful you could just keep that in mind and ... Not say it? Sure, they can block you, but maybe they don't want to have to do that. Maybe they like talking to you most times? Just have a heart, you've obviously got a good brain.
Implying that I have no heart and that I'm not empathic ... somehow I think that a little bit more common sense would not hurt this debate.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

25y ago I went to a catholic school. Back then there were still a lot of mission posts in Africa. The nuns themselves referred to the blacks as 'the little niggers' (in my language then, negerkes). It was not meant disrespectful in any way. Until years later some goof decided that all the blacks are offended by using the word 'neger' (nigger). So all in a sudden we could no longer refer to our black friends the way we described them for over 200 years, and a way that never caused a single problem.
Now that's fascinating. Definitely illustrates the wide gulf between perceptions based on historical context. Not having a similar experience with non-native cultures, I'll grant you the point.

[Chivalrous]

The initial reply was a tat bit different than 'simply asking me to refrain from using it', nor were most follow up posts.


Implying that I have no heart and that I'm not empathic ... somehow I think that a little bit more common sense would not hurt this debate.

Nope, I implied you are not using your heart and not having empathy, I never said you weren't capable of it. I said this because at the end of an elegant post you insult many posters before you. Common sense is defined as
Good sense and sound judgment in practical matters. I contend that in this case common sense and common decency are the same thing, and that it is far better for everyone if we could stop using the word rape, and nigger, and probably several others. There is no harm in not using it, while there is obviously harm in using it... Sound judgement to me sounds like using a different word in its place would eliminate all problems this thread curtails and help curve Internet bullying.

Like with Owltoid, I will not reply further to you in this thread. My final thoughts are common sense = good sense and sound judgement = just stop using the word in a silly casual manner.

[Knytestorme]

One thing missing from this is the fact no-one has a right to not be offended.

I have plenty of gaming friends that use the phase "I just fucking raped him/her hard" about a lot of time when they win and shock/horror some of them have been raped, I also have plenty of friends that use the term "that's gay" for something bad, many of them happen to be gay.

People apply their own set of values to phrases they use, you don't have the right to decide for them in what way they are using the phrase, you only have the right to not listen to them....don't like something, change the channel philosophy works just as well on forums or in person.

The moment you have people telling others what words they can use we're at a situation where it's no different to telling them what books they can read, what music they can listen to and what movies/tv they can watch because it doesn't meet your approved standards and at that point you ARE impinging on the rights of others. In this situation yes, Lax could come down with a blanket list of words that he wants banned on the site and it would be trivial to implement since vbb supports that natively and it would absolutely be his right as the owner of the site but I would hope that the ability for people to ignore those they disagree with is seen as the most sensible and reasonable existing solution as that way no-one is impacted and everyone gets to see/read what they find least offensive.

[edit]

Yeah, #4 seems fairly appropriate when talking about a pvp encounter to me. Man isn't it hard when words have different meanings and you just can't accept it doesn't fit your narrow little viewpoint?

rape1 [reyp] Show IPA noun, verb, raped, rap·ing.
noun1.the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/force) or duress to have sexual intercourse.

2.any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.

3.statutory rape (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/statutory%20rape).

4.an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.

5.Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.


verb (used with object)6.to force to have sexual intercourse.

7.to plunder (a place); despoil.

8.to seize, take, or carry off by force.

[valkry]

This thread raped my eyes