Drop the Shaman for the last slot and fill it up with a DK?

[Ellay]

I run recount on everything I do. My Enhancement Shaman is constantly being outperformed. I realize some DPS a DK gets is from AoE and the dots it provides. I take that into account.
I also take into account the Shaman brings the Mastery buff which is a solid 10% more frost damage bonus going from 26% currently to 36% increased frost damage.
The problem is, the Shaman just isn't bringing the dps I need to the table. For 5v5 Arena's or BG's the shaman usually sits at half the dps and damage done of any 3 of the DK's. I'll even go so far as to say he's using a dagger ilvl 471 mainhand and a 450 offhand while the DK's are sporting 484 2h on two of them and 471 on one of them. But still are you telling me I'm going to see an increase of DOUBLE the damage done with new weapons? I'll find out on Tuesday when I get the PvP weapons which will be massive because the DK's don't have them and won't until the following week, yet I still don't think he'll be able to pump out the damage.

They need ramp up time. My numbers on a lvl 85 training dummy, just 1 - no aoe targets The DK's after about 3-5 minutes pull 52-53k DPS. The shaman? Sitting at 36-38k. My rotation is down pat pretty well, this also includes not dropping stormlash totem or heroism, mainly because heroism doesn't work in arenas and that's where it counts.

Drop the Shaman from the group and the DK's dps after 3-5 minutes is 50-51k. So if I do the math and say the Shaman group buffs give my DK's 2.5k dps each, hopefully being more than fair. That's 7.5k total. Add that to 37k dps and we are at 44.5k. I'm missing an extra 5.5k that another DK in the same gear could provide me.

Another concerning thing I notice when I run a recount on a training dummy, the DK's start off with massive DPS to the tune of 60-65k. The shaman? goes from 20k usually and ramps up. Taking almost 10 seconds to get to that lovely 45k dps spot and then tapering down because Ascendance wore off.

I need that burst, and I need it on demand. The problem is this also hurts my PvE group if I switch it up. Currently I run Tanking Druid and Resto Shaman so I get the 5% crit buff from the druid and the Shaman allows Heroism and Stormlash, making fights go much easier. I'd lose that and only gain another Army of the Dead.

All in all, it's really hard to decide, I wish - really wish Enhancement Shaman performed better. I've spent so many hours perfectly the DPS rotation and I know without a doubt it 90+% optimal which is what any boxer typically wants. I just don't think it's enough.

Is this enough reason? Should I honestly wait until I get the pvp weapons (which is pretty soon)? I don't like wasting time, or putting in effort for a class that isn't or ever for that matter going to perform well. Shaman in general are always on the bottom of the totem pole because Resto performs so well, they have no incentive to fix the other specs. Shaman are also amazing stacked, which I am not doing here.

That's my rant, tell me what you think.

[Ellay]

One more thing. The AoE damage isn't wasted damage either. I've had many fights already in arenas where I'm focusing down a target and it's not dropping but another target is already at 60% hp because those dots do hurt and they can't heal everyone. A hard swap over and that target drops. This right here after seeing that just further fuels the incentive of adding that DK and looking forward to a possible 4x Unholy DK spec for 5.2.

[Sam DeathWalker]

I can't see using a shaman for anything but healing.

[Ualaa]

The shaman does add some utility, but you'll have to judge if it is worth the loss of DPS.
Tremor Totem, is a raid-wide fear/charm/sleep break.
Grounding Totem, is a spell absorb.



How much of your game is PvE and how much is PvP?
It seems the Shaman/Druid is a large portion of the PvE play.
If your PvE is half of your game, it might be worthwhile keeping even if its not absolutely optimal in the PvP end.
If it turns out PvE is something you do now and then, but PvP is the vast majority of your play time... the PvP change might be worthwhile.

PvE is generally much easier than PvP, because you're going against scripted/predictable events.
One of your DKs could go Blood, and the Druid could stay Healer.
That might not be as optimal, but being as close to optimal as possible is likely more important for PvP than for PvE, where a lot of things are doable.

[Ellay]

For PvE the dynamic would change to the Druid going Healing and a DK going Blood, which works fine it's just overall hypothetically less DPS. Although I must say a DK tanks better.

Edit:
To answer further I'd say right now it's 60% PvP / 40% PvE, overall I'm more of a 75% / 25% kind of player, and I didn't think I would be enjoying it as much but 5's are definitely interesting to me.

And to note, say the Shamans DPS does go way up and it's close to a DK's, it just means when the DK's get their weapons they are going to spur right past and beyond. Overlal I'm saying Shamans should be doing better but they aren't :)

[Chivalrous]

I'd drop the shaman. I'd probably drop mine if I had another warrior/hunter/DK/paladin near 90. Only other classes I have close to 90 are mages and rogues. :(

Let me know the results if you do!

[Owltoid]

Pretty sure searing totem doesn't attack training dummies, which means you're losing that DPS plus the buff to flametongue weapon. That's a material difference.

[zenga]

They need ramp up time. My numbers on a lvl 85 training dummy, just 1 - no aoe targets The DK's after about 3-5 minutes pull 52-53k DPS. The shaman? Sitting at 36-38k. My rotation is down pat pretty well, this also includes not dropping stormlash totem or heroism, mainly because heroism doesn't work in arenas and that's where it counts.
...
Another concerning thing I notice when I run a recount on a training dummy, the DK's start off with massive DPS to the tune of 60-65k. The shaman? goes from 20k usually and ramps up. Taking almost 10 seconds to get to that lovely 45k dps spot and then tapering down because Ascendance wore off.

I need that burst, and I need it on demand. The problem is this also hurts my PvE group if I switch it up. Currently I run Tanking Druid and Resto Shaman so I get the 5% crit buff from the druid and the Shaman allows Heroism and Stormlash, making fights go much easier. I'd lose that and only gain another Army of the Dead.

All in all, it's really hard to decide, I wish - really wish Enhancement Shaman performed better. I've spent so many hours perfectly the DPS rotation and I know without a doubt it 90+% optimal which is what any boxer typically wants. I just don't think it's enough.



It's hard to judge what is wrong without combatlogs. All I can tell you is that enhancement is in a great spot, both in pve and pvp. In pve it's generally better performing than frost dks. Definitely 2-3 months ago when all raid data was based on much lower ilvl than currently. But then again we are talking about less than 1% difference in performance. That is obviously from a single player perspective. And that is not data that I pull out of my ass, it's based on 1000s of combat logs. These are the results (http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/10N/all/14/60/default/) for all people who run normal raids, which tend to be both lower geared and less optimized players. The same results but then for heroic raids (http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/all/14/60/default/) (typically better geared and more optimized players). I consider 25m less relevant since they typically have every buff, whereas a 10m raid is closer to a 5m group.

But one thing is sure: enhancement does not have a big ramp up time, and they do have pretty sick burst, even on demand.

I just recorded a short clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EPMw4W8CGw&feature=youtu.be) vs the training dummy, and I have very little raiding experience as enhancement (i.e. I'm far from optimizing the rotation, it's basically just an offspec I use to do dailies. but I do have a pretty good theoretical knowledge about the spec this tier). Forgot to pop wolves for the most part, was hard casting a lb with 1 stack of mealstrom, ... you get the idea. And still manage to get easily in the 120k range, without stormlash/bloodlust/raid buffs ...

It is absolutely possible that enhance is just way harder to box than frost dks, but that shouldn't explain the results you are getting. With equal gear the enhance should always have the same and possibly more potential than the dk. So I'm afraid that you are doing something wrong.

The best way (unless you have made up your mind that you will ditch the enhance) is to provide an armory link and a combat log.

To upload a combat log:
1. Go to worldoflogs.com, make an account an create a fake guild on whatever realm.
2. In your /world of warcraft/log folder there is a txt file located called WoWCombatLog, delete that one (if you have never logged there should be no file of course) i.e. make sure you have no file there
3. When you are ready, type in wow /combatlog and you should get a chatmessage saying something like: logging now
4. Go nuts on the dummy or even better run a dungeon
5. Type /combatlog in wow to turn the logging off
6. login to worldoflogs.com and you should see a link in the upper right hand corner called 'client' (you need to have java installed for that)
7. you then should have 3 options and you need 'open a file', but under edit/preferences you should set your combatlog location and worldoflogs login/pass if the tool doesn't ask you for it
8 locate your combat log
9. upload
10. paste link here and we can start checking what the issue is to hopefully save you from rerolling

[zenga]

Pretty sure searing totem doesn't attack training dummies, which means you're losing that DPS plus the buff to flametongue weapon. That's a material difference.

It does attack the dummy, always has been doing so btw.

[Fat Tire]

Should I honestly wait until I get the pvp weapons (which is pretty soon)?

Yes.

I could imagine solar beam being a cool rush down tactic which the enhancement brings thru sym that another dk wouldnt.

[Lyonheart]

I don't see why you would not be able to run your current PvE team and the PvP team? Im with Zenga.. i have seen those logs and i know enhance can do insane DPS.. i just cant seem to get a boxed enhance shaman to do even 60% of what i can do solo.

[Ellay]

Solar Beam is nice and I do use it pretty frequently.
Thank you Zenga for that information. I need to review further, if my Shamans could pump out even 100k burst like that for a small window I dont't think I would have ever touched the Dk's.

[heyaz]

Unless you really need the utility, mostly from windwalk totem and tremor totem, I don't see the benefit of having 3 DKs and a shaman instead of 4 DKs. Uptime from DKs is constant while enhance sits around barely doing more than auto attacking outside of cooldowns. The enhance "kill shot" isn't really relevant with only one; a 100-120k stormblast every 3 minutes isn't really making up for constant obliterates and extra aoe damage. The mastery buff is very nice, as you said 10% more frost damage, but it doesn't affect obliterate which will be critting for 70-90k on geared targets once you have the pvp weapon.

Seems also like having the shaman is just more micromanagement which would better be used on your healer and use of the DKs' cooldowns.


The damage increase from the weapons are massive but that affects your DKs just as much. Grip -> obliterate x4 drops people to 25-50% right away or is a kill shot is they are undergeared.

Of course the damage of the weapon is big but it will nearly double your PVP power. On your DKs you're sitting at about 6300 pvp power, which is 24.14%. The upgraded PVP weapon has 5174 pvp power. You'll go from 24% to over 40% right away. Add some pvp power gems, upgrade it, etc. and you're in the 50s. I think as human and being a blacksmith, you can break 60%

[Ellay]

I'll try to get some data this evening if I get a chance to log on (wife permitting), but I noticed you were standing next to another training dummy so some of those numbers would be inflated from aoe on the lava lash with Flameshock jumping to it right? I mean it's still really good dps numbers, just trying to get it as accurate as possible.

On a lvl 85 training dummy last night. I had my DK's in a group minus the Shaman and after 3 minutes this was their DPS.(this was in PvP Gear)

53k,50k,45k

Adding the Shaman into the mix it was 51k,50k,49k.
I know it's a really small sample size, but it shows mastery helps slightly but not by much. I guess I'm putting too much value on that buff when my main attack obliterate it's not even affecting. If I do get enough time this week I will try to get points on my 4th DK just in case I do make the switch over. If I can get the Shaman to within 25% of the DKs DPS I'll be happy, I'm just concerned it won't be that close, and for Arenas it's all about min/maxing. Though I love my original "Aelli", I'm here to win :)

[Owltoid]

It does attack the dummy, always has been doing so btw.

Apparently the searing totem will only attack the dummy if you have put flame shock on the dummy. Since I pretty much never use flame shock in my enhancement PvP rotation, I was never able to see the totem attack and give me my lava lash buff.

I'm guessing Ellay isn't using flame shock either, which means my original comment holds - the searing totem is not attacking the dummy and your lava lash is being gimped.

[Ellay]

I added flame shock back in the dps loss of not using it as the first shock is massive. Even in pvp it seems.

[Owltoid]

your targets only survive a few seconds - how does flameshock help when earthshock will likely do more damage?

[Chivalrous]

When flameshock is active lava lash spreads flame shock to other targets doesn't it?

[Owltoid]

yes, it does, but I'd rather have my first target dead with earthshock than trying to micromanage the timing of lava lash and flameshock.

[Ellay]

I just looked and my DK I would swap with has 0 PvP gear and no conquest points. Not too thrilled about that. It'd be hilarious if he ends up doing the same damage as the Shaman right out the gate though.

[zenga]

Apparently the searing totem will only attack the dummy if you have put flame shock on the dummy. Since I pretty much never use flame shock in my enhancement PvP rotation, I was never able to see the totem attack and give me my lava lash buff.

I'm guessing Ellay isn't using flame shock either, which means my original comment holds - the searing totem is not attacking the dummy and your lava lash is being gimped.

You are correct. I never realized that one would opt to not use flame shock when doing a dps test vs the target dummies, since flame shock is one of the highest damage per cast spells for enhancement. Searing totem used to be tied to flame shock prior to mop, so it would only attack those targets that had the FS dot on them. Luckily the searing totem AI improved a lot, but my guess is that the dummies are a weird target and still use the old mechanic.

So yeah not getting the buff from unleash elements for flame shock (since FS is your only fire spell as enhance when specced into unleashed fury), no searing totem damage and no searing flames to buff for lava lash might explain those low numbers.


but I noticed you were standing next to another training dummy so some of those numbers would be inflated from aoe on the lava lash with Flameshock jumping to it right? I mean it's still really good dps numbers, just trying to get it as accurate as possible.
Flameshock will not spread on those dummies by lava lash, since the range is apparently too big (I just double checked it to make sure). But to make sure I glyphed lava lash so it wouldn't spread.


I added flame shock back in the dps loss of not using it as the first shock is massive. Even in pvp it seems.I'm not sure after reading this if you are using it or not (lost in translation here).

[Owltoid]

I never realized that one would opt to not use flame shock when doing a dps test vs the target dummies, since flame shock is one of the highest damage per cast spells for enhancement.

For PvE, yes. For PvP, if your target lives long enough to make that FS do more damage than the ES you could have cast, then something is wrong. FS is one slow DoT while ES can hit pretty hard, especially with the increased crit from Stormstrike.

I'm guessing Ellay saw the loss in DPS on training dummies and put FS back into the rotation. It is a big DPS loss if you're not getting your searing totem damage and buff. That doesn't actually happen in PvP, though, as the searing totem will attack without FS being on the target. In actual PvP, FS has very limited use for enhancement and will likely be a DPS/burst loss compared to ES (that won't be reflected in tests on a dummy).

[Ellay]

Zenga can you link me to your armory and tell me your general casting rotation that you are using?

I just got the PvP Weapons on my Shaman and my DK's aren't even using them and the damage is still craptastic. I'm losing in my opinion an overall 10% by having the Shaman around, and I'm by no means having you try to convince. I want to fix this. Truly :)

I will work on getting a combat log parse going in the meantime.

[Ellay]

I went full PvE spec for PvP just to try and maximize DPS. Got up to 60k on a training dummy and it tapers off now at 47k which is a lot better than the 36-38k. I see crits of 125k, but that is with ilvl 470 weapons. I'm assuming yours are higher. Popping hero obviously gives more.

I have lightning bolt being spammed as the priority every 8 seconds with glyph that will cast it while moving, this essentially let's one go through even if you have a 4 stack.


Went ahead using this macro, with feral spirit and Fire ele totem on a separate key.

/castsequence [mod] Searing Totem;reset=combat Searing Totem,null
/castsequence reset=target Flame Shock,null
/castsequence reset=0.3 0,0,0,Lava Lash
/castsequence reset=0.3 0,0,Stormstrike
/castsequence reset=0.3 0,Unleash Elements
/castsequence reset=5/target Flame Shock,Earth Shock,Earth Shock,Unleash Elements
/cast [combat] Ascendance
/use Dreadful Gladiator's Badge of Conquest
/startattack

[heyaz]

Once you have multiple targets, the aoe of DKs spikes their DPS pretty high.

I don't have a good pve rotation and am gemmed 100% pvp power which doesn't affect target dummies, but my DK did about 60k sustained on a target dummy. Obliterate crits are 125-160k.

Against my druid w/ 61% resil and 380k hp, fully hotted, recount showed about 60k, but of course it's hard to get a good idea of a pvp situation from recount averaging that, since the fight is <15 seconds and there are obviously some big spikes. Depending on KM procs, time to engage, etc. you could be pulling 20k, or 100k single target. RNG and the logistics of the fight, like uptime on the target.

Multiple target (3+) it was >100k with howling blast and diseases. Add pets and D&D and it's a little higher. In PVP situations, gorefiend's grasp and several DK's spiking over 100k dps on fully geared targets... huge damage all over the place.

I wonder if the shaman's damage spikes with several targets due to flame shock spreading.

[Ellay]

When I'm running my numbers I'm trying to take into account the damage the shaman is putting out vs the hypothetical damage the dk's are putting out single target. If I can get the Shaman to 80k+ burst and 55-60k sustained I will be very happy. I don't think it's that far off. Just needs further tweaking.

[zenga]

Zenga can you link me to your armory
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/kazzak/Zënga/simple


and tell me your general casting rotation that you are using?

specced into unleash fury/echo
Searing down, I open with unleash elements, flame shock (glyphed), stormstrike, lava lash, lightning bolt, rinse and repeat with whatever comes off cd, where searing totem is highest priority follwed by unleash elements and 5 stack LB. Pop pets/cds as you see fit.

Edit: I just ran your toon aelli through simcraft (an app that simulates a boss fight) and your dps is 65.730. That is a tank and spank fight, over the course of 450 seconds, a normal target for the hit cap and low lag; assuming all raid buffs and debuffs are present.

If you were to replace your enchants with dancing steel on both your off and mainhand, your dps goes up to 68.728.
Glyph of flame shock increased that dps with another 1.7k.

This is the damage breakdown per execute time from you armory:

http://i.imgur.com/eohOJCu.png

Note: I ran only 10,000 iterations, which might result in some variation in the outcome. You can go up to 50k iterations to reduce the noise yourself if you'd wish to do so. (google simulation craft, download/install, under options set what you want, enable/disable debuffs, import from the armory under import, then simulate, fairly straighforward and a great help as you can get a more indepth view of whats going on).

Edit 2:

Ran the dk that looks to be the best geared one and that I found in your 5s team, through simcraft as well: 75.198 dps, under the same conditions. (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/bleeding-hollow/Ellãy/simple)

Sarahfierce: 70815
And the dk with the tilde on the a: 72.944

[Ellay]

Thanks for the link, will further test. As you see from the macro above. It's basically exactly that rotation. Checked dancing steel enchant and it's 3.7k on my server... almost 8k for both weapons. Ouch :)

[Owltoid]

This is such a PvE thread. Do that sim over 8 seconds, much longer than any focused target should survive, and see if flame shock has as good of value. (intentionally sarcastic to harp on the point that training dummies and PvE rotations are not what to focus on in PvP, otherwise they will lead you too poor choices, such as using flame shock when the target dies very quickly)

[zenga]

This is such a PvE thread. Do that sim over 8 seconds, much longer than any focused target should survive, and see if flame shock has as good of value. (intentionally sarcastic to harp on the point that training dummies and PvE rotations are not what to focus on in PvP, otherwise they will lead you too poor choices, such as using flame shock when the target dies very quickly)

It's important for the analysis of his claim that his shaman is doing so much less damage vs a target dummy. His testing method for the comparison was a pve one, and all available data/parses/simulations point in the other direction. Werther spell A or not is better for a boxed pvp setup than spell B is a whole other decision (like if someone was to say that howling blast did more total dmg in arena than obliterate and would use that comparison to draw a conclusion that HB is just better, while the burst dmg is actually the only relevant thing in this example).

[Ellay]

I did the simulation with my Enhancement Shaman with 10k tests, and removed items that I definitely would not be using such as flasks and food, and some of the debuffs it provides as that isn't in my group as well as no Hero/Bloodlust because it's not usable in arenas and I don't pop it on training dummies.. I came out with 50,072 DPS. Which is right around what I am pulling in the first place. My DK's using the same simulations pull 60,009 DPS on my best geared character but a bulk of the damage is coming from Soul Reaper in the execute range. Dropping Soul Reaper I get 57,090 DPS. these overall seem quite on par with what I am seeing in game which makes me feel a lot better about my rotation and that they are boxed to 90+% capacity of playing single boxed.

At this point I would say it's just a gear issue and need to get better enchants/buffs and reforge, but I do feel a lot better being able to simulationcraft :)

[zenga]

I did the simulation with my Enhancement Shaman with 10k tests, and removed items that I definitely would not be using such as flasks and food, and some of the debuffs it provides as that isn't in my group as well as no Hero/Bloodlust because it's not usable in arenas and I don't pop it on training dummies.. I came out with 50,072 DPS. Which is right around what I am pulling in the first place. My DK's using the same simulations pull 60,009 DPS on my best geared character but a bulk of the damage is coming from Soul Reaper in the execute range. Dropping Soul Reaper I get 57,090 DPS. these overall seem quite on par with what I am seeing in game which makes me feel a lot better about my rotation and that they are boxed to 90+% capacity of playing single boxed.

At this point I would say it's just a gear issue and need to get better enchants/buffs and reforge, but I do feel a lot better being able to simulationcraft :)

Great! Simcraft is a good tool for analysing where/what the problem is (so are combatlogs). It would somewhat be a shame if you would just swap it out for a dk and have to go through all the trouble of gearing that one up when you didn't really had confirmation that either your rotation was spot on or without knowing what the real issue was. It's a different thing obviously if you swap it out for genuine reasons. Too often I see claims on forums (not really boxing related) where people use their own anecdotal evidence as fact, often conflicting with math and available data, and after using proper tools to analyse where the problem is, they tend to be surprised. A good week ago a realID friend who raids on his ele shaman whispers me: his damage was far behind of what his raid was doing and he was sure that his rotation was perfect. While ele is lagging behind, the gap is not that big, so there must be something else. After spending a good hour or 2 walking him through simcraft to teach him reforging plots, learning him how he should analyse logs, and setting up weakauras to track stuff better, ... it was pretty clear that his stats and rotation weren't as perfect as he was thinking. Next day he whispers me to say that his dmg on the same boss went up with 13%. And that's an example that you can find on pretty much every dps forum on a daily basis, for every spec in the game. Wow is a sick stats and math game, and they can't be ignored, which happens too often by a lot of people.

But now go do some awesome stuff in the game and make us a new vid we can enjoy!

[Ualaa]

Way back in late Burning Crusade, my Warlock moved from a decent guild that raided to one of the top raiding guilds on the server.
I had always been in the top 2-3 for damage in the previous guild.
But, even taking into consideration the relative lack of gearing, I wasn't doing that great for DPS with the new guys.

A couple of them looked at logs, I believe it was WWS or something similar then, not worldoflogs.

It turned out, I was using Lifetap preemptively when low on mana, to prevent myself from running out of mana... instead of burning entirely through the mana reserve, and then only tapping the minimum amount to cast the next spell.

It could be something small, that can make a fairly big deal in the long run.

[Chivalrous]

Thanks for the link Zenga, that looks like a very valuable resource I plan to make use of. Nice gear btw.

[SuperMiguel]

Been looking for a 5s team and BG smashing team... Not sure if i want to follow what you are doing here, 1 druid, 3 dk, 1 shaman, go 1 druid 4 shamans, or 1 druid 4 dks