Vecter

[Ualaa]

As boxers we have a hard enough time legitimizing what we do to also have to deal with those that find ways to "game the system" or partake in methods that are against a games ToS. Do what you want but understand that posting on dual-boxing.com about those methods or your successes using questionable tactics or even blatant cheats will get you banned here.

How far does that go?

I realize this is likely in response to the recent bot in battleground threads.
Where people are saying, just count down and you'll get into the same BG often.
Or use a macro, to report everyone else as AFK since you're unfairly being reported yourself.

At the same time, though, look at some of the macro threads...
Last expansion blizzard removed the ability to have the commas in macros as a timing mechanism.
Recently, Blizzard also changed the system, specifically removing the fall through macros.
Now we have threads showing:
#showtooltips obliterate
/castsequence reset=target howling blast, plague strike,null
/castsequence reset=0.5 1,2,Howling Blast
/castsequence reset=0.5 1,Frost Strike
/castsequence reset=0.5 Obliterate
This is using an item, that cannot be used via /use 1, in the place of a comma to defeat/game the system.
Blizzard did post an expansion ago, that they don't want macros/addons making decisions for players; that they want players to decide for themselves when to use each ability... so the entire two-step macro system (which was a sticky for an entire expansion) is gaming that system to achieve our desired goals, as is the whole priority system and by extension Khatovar's sticky that is collecting those macros.

A lot of the posts on this site are, how can I do whatever.
And a lot of the answers could be taken as gaming the system.

So where is the line drawn?
What is allowed, even though it skirts around Blizzard's intentions?
And what is going to be considered a 'questionable tactic' or 'gaming of the system'?

[luxlunae]

I think we probably want to draw the line where blizzard draws it, namely where the experience impacts other players. Macro workarounds are working within the system in a way that doesn't harm the experience of other players (albeit in a way that is obviously not intended).

Queueing multiple parties at the same time, the same week that blizzard has said "we don't like people queuing with groups of more than five" in regular battlegrounds is obviously still impacting the playtime of other players in the way that was just banned using addons. I guess I see that as the difference.

[MiRai]

We used the comma-based timing macros in WotLK that Blizzard didn't like. They changed it when Cata was released. We used fall-through macros in Cataclysm and beginning in MoP. They changed it in 5.1.

If they don't like the macro you've got posted above... they'll change it. It's as simple as that.

[Ualaa]

In regards to macros, they don't hurt other players...
But Blizzard did draw the line at the removal of the fall-through and the removal of the ,,,,'s for timing.
And has clearly stated, they want players to make the decisions, not an addon or macro... and further, has been consistent in breaking addons/macros that allow the mindless play...
Our whole 'mindlessly spam the button' is gaming the system by removing the decision making from the player.

So, if the line on respecting Blizzard is when it impacts other players.
But it's okay to bypass restrictions Blizzard explicitly put in the game to prevent 'mindless' spamming... because it doesn't impact other players...

Basically just want to know where the admins consider the line to be.
I can remove, or at least edit out, the whole priority system section on my Pally/DK guide... and refrain from offering support in that direction.

[Ualaa]

We used the comma-based timing macros in WotLK that Blizzard didn't like. They changed it when Cata was released. We used fall-through macros in Cataclysm and beginning in MoP. They changed it in 5.1.

If they don't like the macro you've got posted above... they'll change it. It's as simple as that.

Does that mean, if Blizzard doesn't like using Mouse Broadcasting to queue multiple groups for the same BG, they'll remove the ability.
But until they do so, it is fine to both use (at your personal risk, of course) and talk about here?

In regards to macros, up until Vecter's post...
The community has known Blizzard's intentions, but has consistently posted how to bypass their restrictions in a way that is beneficial to boxing.

[Vecter]

Ualaa,

I think having discussions about methods we utilize as boxers if perfectly legitimate. There are definitely some tactics we use that one person considers "botting" or another completely fine. We can only go by what Blizzard gives us in those infrequent nuggets on legitimate boxing. My concerns are when people blatantly make posts on topics we all perfectly know that are against ToS (exploits, wintrading, etc) and these posts are more for what I am targeting.

[Ualaa]

Thanks for that clarification.

[MiRai]

Does that mean, if Blizzard doesn't like using Mouse Broadcasting to queue multiple groups for the same BG, they'll remove the ability.
But until they do so, it is fine to both use (at your personal risk, of course) and talk about here?
Blizzard stated that they removed the ability for add-ons to automate queuing for standard or random Battlegrounds in groups larger than 5. By definition, there is no automation in a player who manually presses the queue button via a click of their mouse at the same time as their friends.

What it really comes down to is if you're coming to this site to purposefully talk about, or link to, things that you know, for certain, are going to get you or others in trouble. That's when it becomes a problem.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Isn’t it clear that if they eliminate a procedure (say ground targeting by using the mini map) that any legal "work around" is still a violation of the spirit of the rules.

The fall through macros, and the sending of multiple keys (Kates method), although both completely legal, clearly are used to "work around" the change of /castrandom to only chose spells when they are off of their cool down.

I mean really how hard is it to press the same key more times....

I could just see you people trying to break Fear in EQ1 and not being able to get to your character for a week or longer or spending 4 hours setting up raid only to have the enemy faction train the whole zone on you.

The post above me is correct also though, Im talking about the fall through macros and sending multiple keys (for the purpose of getting around /castrandom)

This is Kate's method:

http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/47817-1x-Pala-4-Shaman-Macros/page2

[MiRai]

This is Kate's method:

http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/47817-1x-Pala-4-Shaman-Macros/page2
I'm sure she's happy that you're specifically giving her credit for pressing multiple keys at the same time, but if you were to look at this site's history you would find that people have been using such a method for quite some time (probably even prior to its existence). :)

[Sam DeathWalker]

Well I never heard of its use to cast spells not on cooldown with a single key press prior to this:

Method 1: Make keys send multiple keystrokes per press.
What I mean by this is that when I press “1″, it sends 123 at the exact same time to every window of WoW. Consequently, when the WoW client receives 123 at the same time, it will only let me do one thing at a time – so, it will try to execute whatever is on my 1 key. If the spell on the 1 key is on cooldown, it will try to execute the 2 key. If the 1 and 2 key spells are on cooldown it will try to cast whatever is on 3, and if all of them are on cooldown it won’t do anything but tell me those spells aren’t ready yet.

And it could not have been that well known as then Merc would not have needed his two step macro ....

You are probably right though I guess those who knew about it probably didnt post about it.

[Ualaa]

The first I heard of it, was in the DK manifesto...
That was early WotLK, prior to 3.1.

I believe Mercurio's two-step macros came out, in the previous content patch... 3.0.3 and onwards.

Not sure if either method was popular prior to that.
Most of us were using commas in click castsequences, to good effect.

[MiRai]

What I mean by this is...
I know exactly what you mean by it. It's called the "popsicle stick" method. Just tape a popsicle stick (or any object) across, for example, your 1 - 5 keys on your keyboard -- Just like this (http://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/eve_multiboxing_1.jpg).

[Sam DeathWalker]

Well I didnt know about it anyways.

But the point is why is everyone so shocked about this or that suspension when most everyone is taking the position that "If its legal we can do it even if its to get around things that are not legal". Which is a position taken by winners true enough, because you cannot lose a potential edge as that is probably what your oppenent is doing, but then again suspensions should be no shock.

[Starbuck_Jones]

Personally I find the ingame macro system debate to be a joke. You have revolving-door blue posts who go on about the "spirit" of the game and at the same time you can buy on Blizzards website a Steelseries programmable World of Warcraft mouse that is advertised to do everything the "spirit" doesn't want you to do.