WCRadio - Octale & Hordak vs the World - Antiboxer email

[Eteocles]

http://wcradio.com/archives.php?selectArchive=783&autoplay=1 - About the 20min mark into the stream.

Was listening to this at work...they read out some email from listeners, and this one asks "I was wondering what your guys' opinion on multiboxing is; we lost to a boxer in pvp and made a forum post and got flamed for it; it makes pvp and farming unfair to the rest of us; BTW DO U PLAY YUGIOH LOL"

Their response: "Well ifyou wanna piss away $15-45 a month to do on 2-4 chars what players that don't suck can do on one char, go for it! Their output is no better than a good solo player's is, and it might sound a bit arrogant but that's because i'm not terrible at the game"; I believe this deserves a response ;) I'd like to see a lone player solo heroic anything or take on a 5man arena team at higher ranks.

They go on to discuss an EQ boxer who did it to sell ingame items, and how that's how they view "us" now, ignorant views.

Opinions, lolz, etc?

[Bigfish]

Just sounds like they don't know what they're talking about. Surprise surprise. I'd like to see the solo player who has absolute control of drops, farms 300-600 gold a day on dailies, has a DPS of 3k minimum, and solos their own dungeons.

[PyrostasisTDK]

Yeah they are calling 5boxing a perversion and all about account sales here ('http://wcradio.com/forum/index.php?topic=3181.0')

[keyclone]

sounds like a job for Vyndree !

i guess since the haters got pwned on the boards, it's time to take it to another medium...

[Eteocles]

Thanks for replying to the thread too Pyro, I can't register from work but will once I get home...I already idle alot in the WCradio IRC and most of the regulars, the station owner himself included, knows I box nowadays, none of them have an issue(So don't look down on the site as a whole, it's a VERY large, very public radio community ;p just Octale & Hordak lol); I find it funny how the OP words it though, like a scathing, biased News story, worded over-professionally, not like a normal person would lol, "Perversion of gameplay!"

On a related note, edit yet post and add a line regarding the account selling, stating that most if not all of us frown upon it, and that one of our members did the math, and it came out to be LESS THAN MINIMUM WAGE to ebay via multiboxing. We do it for fun, the challenge, or to simply be hermits in an MMO(As if everyone doesn't fucking solo anyways, fuckin hypocrites)

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Their response: "Well ifyou wanna piss away $15-45 a month to do on 2-4 chars what players that don't suck can do on one char, go for it! Their output is no better than a good solo player's is, and it might sound a bit arrogant but that's because i'm not terrible at the game";/rofl. Sounds to me like these guys are hatin' on it for no good reason. $5 says they're raiders who've been jipped on dkp repeatedly.

[Bigfish]

The whole thing is pretty ignorant. Who the hell sells their multiboxing accounts? You can make so much more farming dailies, shards, and arena teams than you can with how long it takes to level a character.

[PyrostasisTDK]

yeah I think thats the thing most non boxers dont realize multiboxing a full group to 70 isnt something that takes 2 days or a week... it takes a good long time to get to 70 x 5.

I thought grinding in DAOC was a pain.... 5 boxing in wow frustrates me on the leveling aspect, I HATE COLLECTION QUESTS!

[thinus]

yeah I think thats the thing most non boxers dont realize multiboxing a full group to 70 isnt something that takes 2 days or a week... it takes a good long time to get to 70 x 5.

I thought grinding in DAOC was a pain.... 5 boxing in wow frustrates me on the leveling aspect, I HATE COLLECTION QUESTS!

My leveling to 60 was very fast, mostly in instances. Once at 60 it started slowing down. I did it this way:

Hellfire quests and the instances (Ramps and BF)
Zangar quests and instances (Underbog and Slave Pens)
Terokkar quests and instances (Mana Tombs and SH)

I went to Nagrand when I was 68 and I dinged 70 before I set foot in BEM. I am probably half way through the BEM quests at the moment as I am just farming gold for flying mounts, about 500g to go between all 5.

[Xzin]

Who the hell sells their multiboxing accounts?


Hello, I am selling a level 70 alliance 5-man multibox on a US PVP server. The team is 4 gnome warlocks, (3 felguard, 1 sl/sl for spell-lock\devour) and one dwarf disc priest.

This is five accounts, and I am the original owner of all 5. I have the secret key etc.

The gear level varies, but all have at least 100 resil, the priest is close to 300. There is some s3 gear, but the majority of it is honor gear and kara loot. The priest has 1500 +healing and the locks range from 850-1000 buffed spelldamage.

All have their normal flying mounts, and there is about 10,000 gold between the accounts (15,000 short of epic flyers for all 5) I will charge more if you want the gold.

I want to sell these as a package deal to someone interested in multiboxing. All have their transfers up.

I am looking for $1500 for the complete set, and will not break the 5box up. If you're interested leave a post\privatemsg with an screen name and I'll contact you shortly. I will do paypal (keeping the secret key until the transfer is finalized) or western union online, and will trustwho verify\take other steps to establish identity as needed.

That guy does.

[Zseth]

actually, it sounds more like someone trying to set up suvega up as "selling" his accounts



Not a very good attempt, but you will notice all of his information can be found via the armory, if he had been smart, he wouldn't have generalized and used more specifics about each guy

[thinus]

actually, it sounds more like someone trying to set up suvega up as "selling" his accounts



Not a very good attempt, but you will notice all of his information can be found via the armory, if he had been smart, he wouldn't have generalized and used more specifics about each guy

Unless...he/she isn't trying to set anyone up and generalized to ensure people don't discover who it is. Having Kara gear on 5 characters doesn't mean he/she 5-boxed Kara.

[MrLonghair]

I see those people. They make more money than me, they have better computers and larger homes, sometimes even drivers licenses (which are extremely expensive in Europe, or reasonably priced, depending on your look on peoples driving skills) and they just cannot accept the fact that I find that $15x2 a month makes the game a lot more fun and interesting, and that I buy my movies, games and music.

[Vyndree]

actually, it sounds more like someone trying to set up suvega up as "selling" his accounts


The priest has 1500 +healing and the locks range from 850-1000 buffed spelldamage.

Doesn't sound like Suvega to me, unless they really want to lowball a BT/Hyjal priest's +healing and his mages somehow managed to turn into locks. Suvega wouldn't sell his accounts if someone put a gun to his head. ;)

I'll look through the thread and see what I can manage when I have some free moments at work.

[Maat]

Wondering if they ever thought about, what if someone doesn't suck at playing his main. I'm talking about all those multiboxers that have main in high end raiding guilds, or reached gladiator on more characters etc...
And they just multibox because it brings out so much more from the game.

[Suvega]

actually, it sounds more like someone trying to set up suvega up as "selling" his accounts


The priest has 1500 +healing and the locks range from 850-1000 buffed spelldamage.

Doesn't sound like Suvega to me, unless they really want to lowball a BT/Hyjal priest's +healing and his mages somehow managed to turn into locks. Suvega wouldn't sell his accounts if someone put a gun to his head. ;)

I'll look through the thread and see what I can manage when I have some free moments at work.

LOL Well put....
My priest in PvE gear with elixers and 10man buffed just hit 2500 healing last night.
With 2 trinkets and the ring proc, over 3k for about 15 secs O.o

And warlocks? Meh not yet, I like mah mages. They can cc and pew pew. Albeit they are squishy as hell in arenas, and after exploding one person they get ANHILATED. /meh

[Eteocles]

Seems there was a followup email to this in this week's show: http://wcradio.com/archives.php?selectArchive=791&autoplay=1 - about 47mins in, almost Halfway through the stream if you wanna skip to it.

The emailer states he agrees it's up to the player's choice in regards to money spent; he disagrees with the lack of skill argument. Octale gets it wrong in his reply again though, saying 3 melee shamen would be easy to do while running 3 seperate classes would be hard due to hotkey limitations lol

He goes on to call us social misfits because we "can't field members" for groups/raids...I think it's time to go to their particular forums or email the show and set 'em straight, Vyn? =)

[Vyndree]

Seems there was a followup email to this in this week's show: http://wcradio.com/archives.php?selectArchive=791&autoplay=1 - about 47mins in, almost Halfway through the stream if you wanna skip to it.

The emailer states he agrees it's up to the player's choice in regards to money spent; he disagrees with the lack of skill argument. Octale gets it wrong in his reply again though, saying 3 melee shamen would be easy to do while running 3 seperate classes would be hard due to hotkey limitations lol

He goes on to call us social misfits because we "can't field members" for groups/raids...I think it's time to go to their particular forums or email the show and set 'em straight, Vyn? =)

When does their show actually air? I'd be happy to "call in". ;)

I find that people generally have a hard time calling me a loser to my face. Particularly since I am anything but the stereotypical wow geek -- female, job, relationship...

[Eteocles]

I think they air on Saturdays, should be listed on their Show Info page on the left side of wcradio.com ;p I'm not too fond of thm now...only listened cuz I heard every other show's archives already, I get more enjoyment out of Vendor Trash and Max Speed lol

Either email 'em before/during the show, or hop on their IRC(I forget the address but it's #wowradio on their own network, not sure if it's still irc.wowradio or not, but they have a java chat link somewhere on the site lol) and PM to whoever they say is taking the questions/comments, usually Emtee.

[Bigfish]

The emailer states he agrees it's up to the player's choice in regards to money spent; he disagrees with the lack of skill argument. Octale gets it wrong in his reply again though, saying 3 melee shamen would be easy to do while running 3 seperate classes would be hard due to hotkey limitations lol


Yeah, that made me go "lolwut?" I play 5 different classes, and am working up the other 4. The only relevant difficulty is in melee positioning, and all the really requires is an extra /follow in one of the macros.

[Nepida]

I think what you guys are forgetting is how easy the game is when not multiboxing. While we have an objective view of both single an multiboxing, other people just have no clue. I remember before I started really researching, and specifically testing things out, I had a lot of incorrect assumptions about boxing. Things I can do in my sleep now seemed impossible (5 mans) and things that seemed easy are much more difficult for me (bgs). (*not elitist, just going on my own experience pre-post multiboxing)

[Vyndree]

Sent off this e-mail a few hours ago: http://vboxing.net/blog/webs.php/2008/03/24/my-e-mail-to-octale-aamp-hordak-of-wcrad

(formatting is better on the blog page, and includes links)

Happy Monday,

It's come to my attention that the subject of multiboxing has come up a couple of times on your show, and shortly thereafter a post on the wcradio forums.
Radio Show #1: http://wcradio.com/archives.php?selectArchive=783&autoplay=1
Forum Post: http://wcradio.com/forum/index.php?topic=3181.0
Radio Show #2: http://wcradio.com/archives.php?selectArchive=791&autoplay=1
I disagree with a few of the points made in these shows/posts, so I'm here to offer you an alternate perspective. I feel that many of the opinions generated during your show may have been made out of misinformation or lack of information.

My name is Jennifer. I'm a 22 year old software engineer at Microsoft (yes, the evil empire), female gamer (they EXIST?!), and owner/administrator of VBoxing.net. I currently multibox a combination of 5 from my 7 level 70's: 4 elemental shaman, 1 resto shaman, 1 protection paladin, and 1 holy priest. I'm also in the midst of leveling 5 warlocks (level 45), and 5 hunters (~ level 20). Yes, I am an altaholic.

I was also "the girlfriend" as mentioned in WoWInsider's report on the 2 multiboxers running Karazhan (quote from radio show #2: "If you're multiboxing, I can't imagine that you're raiding"), and the original poster who illicited this forum post from GM Belfaire on the official forums.

Now, on to the interesting stuff.

First of all, multiboxing does not make efficient money off of account sale, regardless of the fact that account sale is against the terms of use. It's just doesn't make sense. If you can afford the computer setup and account set up and subscription fees, then you really don't need the miniscule amount of "profit" you would earn. It's just a complete waste of time to work for half of the federal minimum wage. Not to mention against the game rules -- and who WANTS to get banned?


Secondly, in response to the radio show #2 comment, "I don't know why you would want to multibox anyway". WoW is not rocket science. Granted, certain aspects of WoW are challenging, but after you've seen all of the content there's really not much to do. I'll quote a little bit from my FAQ:
"From what I've come across, the majoriy of multiboxers don't see much of a challenge in the solo game, or even the raid game for that matter. WoW isn't exactly rocket science. In order to spark a little interest in the game again, they put challenges in front of themselves to make gameplay more interesting. It's not just multiboxers who do this. Like the naked troll project, or Noor the pacifist.

Anyway, back on topic. Multiboxers can use their characters for all sorts of things -- from making their lives easier by leveling with their own dedicated healer, to running 5-man instances by themselves, to PvPing in battlegrounds and arenas."


Playing a healer, dps, and tank is certainly possible. I've been doing it since Stockades, and my first WoW video was my 5-box run through RFK (4 shaman, 1 warrior). The reason why most multiboxers choose to minimize the number of classes/specs in their group setup is certainly in-line with what was said on your radio show. It is much easier to manage identical cooldowns and abilities rather than trying to synchronize multiple cast times, cooldowns, and abilities.

Most successful PvP teams stick to 1 or 2 classes/specs. However, there are PvE groups that are also very versatile in heroics and instances. Because PvE is scripted, you have time to set up various /focus macros and positioning prior to a pull and per each encounter -- however, there is still quite a bit of skill involved to recover when something goes wrong. Because PvP is less forgiving and more dynamic, it helps to cut out any distractions and stick to a singular role as you will almost never have time to prepare your macros for each individual encounter.

As for your enhancement shaman example, it's just not possible. If you didn't know, /follow breaks upon melee attacks, which means your positioning is just not going to work -- particularly in PvP. You almost never see more than 1 melee class in a multibox set up due to difficulty in /follow, the melee hitbox, and melee breaking /follow.


Finally, "social misfits". Just because you multibox does not mean you can NEVER break your group up to play with other people. Here are just a few examples of my personal experiences.
My paladin tanks Karazhan every week for my guildies.
I've run Gruul's Lair with 1/2/3 of my shaman.
I've done PvP premades with my friends/guild.
I regularly heal 5-mans with my resto shaman.
I do SSC/TK with my resto shaman.
I've sometimes pulled one shaman into an alt run of Karazhan when they're LF1M.
I've also been able to help out many of my friends' alts complete the Ring of Blood quest and Ogri'la daily attunements.
I've done Karazhan with just me and my boyfriend.
Just because you multibox doesn't mean you're alone. WoW is a social game, and multiboxing doesn't prevent you from being social. It just offers you an alternate playstyle that might work for some, might not work for others. Just because you leveled/quested/instanced/raided as a multibox group does not prevent you from splitting them up and playing with other people.


In finality, multiboxing is a playstyle choice that appeals to some people who otherwise would have been bored and/or quit. Multiboxing does not determine your social caste (I would say I'm a living example, being as far from the stereotypical WoW geek as possible). Multiboxing does not make you antisocial, or ugly, or banished to your mother's basement (in fact, it's more likely you've got a steady job in order to afford the computer setup/account costs). Multiboxing is not "ezmode" and requires quite a bit of thought not only to set up macros, but to execute them in dynamic situations such as mis-pulls, PvP, breaking CC/aggro, healing/tanking/dpsing at the same time, positioning, and reacting to multiple character's unique situations (ever had JUST ONE character get hamstrung/curse of tongues?) while in a self-limited set of controls (macros and /follow).

Hopefully that gives you a starting point to educate yourself a bit more on multiboxing and what it is before you begin commenting on misinformation. I'd be happy to do an interview and/or answer any follow up questions/comments you might have if this is a subject of interest.

Thanks for reading the wall of text. And if you didn't read it and just skimmed all the way to the bottom, shame on you.

-Jennifer
Velani / Velath / Velathi / Velarie / Velavi / Velatti / Vyndree of VBoxing.net

[Eteocles]

Eloquently put, Vyn, me likey :p I'll keep an ear out and see if he replies on a future show, or if he replies via email, be sure to post it here for us =)

[accused]

what i find funny is that u can actually powerlevel 1 character to 70 in less than 2 days.

multiboxer to hit 70? not 2 days.

if u were doing this for the sole-purpose of selling accounts, multiboxing is the most wrong way u can go.

[Octale]

To Vyndree and the Dual-Boxing.com community:

First, disclaimers and apologies. Ordinarily I wouldn't necro a month stale thread, but this thread in particular has demanded my immediate response for three reasons. First, there's an ad hominem against my person. Second, said ad hominem is an accusation against me for being a hypocrite. Third, a member of my listerbase sent me feedback, and I can't find it in our email box. This email points out that I have done this community a disservice. I won't sit back and wait until Sunday to address this (even though I am going to address this Sunday). So allow me to at least save a little face by dealing with some of the constructive points before I deal with this on Sunday.

Based on the timing of the statements on the show, I said what I said during the "cleanup" segment of the show. As some of you show vets will know, the cleanup segment is usually us reacting to emails. Now that I've heard the statements in question, I can at least try to answer for making the statement. Strangely enough, I can't. I took what was more or less a shot in the dark and missed by a mile-and-a-half. Listening to it in retrospect, I more suprised I didn't mercilessly taunt the guy who got owned by the multi-boxer and went to whine on the forums. That said, I do think the greater point was missed in all of my hyperbolizing (or ignorance, if you prefer). The point was this: It's *your* money, and if you choose to spend 75 dollars a month multi-boxing 5 chars, that is 100% your perrogative. Do I think you're a fool for doing it? Yep, and that's not going to change. Do I think there's nobility in being able to solo instances or 2-man Kara on 10 toons by multi-boxing? Nope, not one shread; that's not going to change either. If you choose to do it for the sake of doing it, by all means, do so. Ordinarily, I wouldn't jump on something like that, but for whatever reason, I did. That was wrong, and it's my intention to fix it Sunday on the show.

Vyndree, I'm quite concerned that I can't find your email in the show's inbox. We generally don't delete anything excpet facebook invites, and I've looked 5 days in either direction from 24 Mar, when you said you sent it. If you wouldn't mind, please send it to the show's email address again, so I can star it appropriately so as to not forget to deal with this. It's important to myself and Hordak that we get things right when we talk about them. Sadly, RL gets in the way of us knowing everything about everything, even about WoW. I freely admit to not giving credit where it might be due, and making some inflamatory statements toward the multi-boxing community, even though I suspect, based on my inflection and tone, it was done with some amount of tongue-in-cheek behind it. In any event, I've certainly done this community a disservice, and in one of the traditions of OnHVW that I'm most proud of, I'll call attention to it on the show, and correct it as best I can.

Regards, and Flame on!

Octale

[Eteocles]

Well-stated Octale and np on necroing it :p I don't really think it was TOO derogatory of a remark at first(and I'm one to talk about when someone voices their possibly inflammatory opinions...lol), but yea it did come off a little uninformed, mostly, and you admit that, much respect :p

I'll see if Zin can get ahold of Vyndree to re-send the email, she doesn't troll around here much anymore(that I know of, anyways) for reasons I won't go into here; will definently be listening to the sunday show to see how that goes ;p Most of us aren't really out to be "lololol look at me I can solo raid content in an mmo"(though there is at least some "nobility" as you put it, in doing so, because it's done differently; just like 3manning ony and being the world first of something from 70 to raid boss kills...and noone gives 2 shits about it a few days/weeks later in ALL of the above cases), but more that we're...trying to dispel uninformed perceptions, I suppose is the best way to put it.

Legality, time and skill are the main issues thrown at us and most of the time:
Legality: It's legal, bottom line; sure, it's 5v1, but people for some reason think the # of players behind that matters; you're gonna get ass-raped till you bleed if you try to solo 5 people, whether it's 1 person playing 5, 5 people playing 5 or even 10 people 2-manning each of 5 character(lol reverse multiboxing, multi-playering?)
Time: We spend no more and no less time on it than anyone else would, which varies from person to person; people play all day, sleep, and play more; most of us have jobs and play in our spare time, some play all day too, others rarely play at all. Boxing doesn't change that ;)
Skill: In Arenas, a 5-player 5man team will win more often than a 1player 5man team, simply because they can multitask and individually move, not be AOE fodder. The only thing boxers in arenas have going for them is focus fire which is easily broken via rogues stunlocking one and running around alot(alts don't turn on their own most of the time; stun the leader and the alts're stuck facing one way); in pve, it's like RTSes...micromanagement of mass amounts of skills in a limited amount of time. Trying to tank, dps and heal all at once over 5 screens can be intense :p Blizzard's builtin Macros and conditions help ease this strain but it's still by no means a cakewalk.

And by all means you're quite entitled to your opinions that's it's a waste of money; I don't consider 5boxing worth it yet either so I 3box, and we all play the game differnetly, even amongst boxers and non-boxers. It all boils down to we're all just players and all do things our own way to have our own fun :p

Thanks for taking the time to post man, lookin forward to the show :p I'm usually idling in the wowradio IRC as Drayth too if you wanna yell at me privately for any reason ;p

[Gallo]

Thanks for the eloquent response Octale. I don't have a problem with people that think we're fools for multiboxing, or that there is nothing "cool" about soloing instances. I only have a problem with people that think we're:
1) Selling our accounts
2) Doing something outside of the realm of Blizzards rules
3) Doing something that can't possibly be thwarted by a group of individuals

"Disagree" with it all you want, that is your opinion and your right. Calling us cheaters is the only thing we hate.

[Eteocles]

cheaters or skillless ;) Multiboxing does have inherent advantages(slightly better coordination, focus fire etc) but comes with it's own unique set of disadvantages too; it's like playing a different class from what you're used to and not easier or harder, just different :P

[Gallo]

I don't care if they call me skill-less... I just melted their face, whats that say about them? I just don't like to be called a cheater when Blizzard is all for it.

I know people that think add-ons in general is cheating. Ridiculous.

[Octale]

I'm sure if Octale (or anyone else!) posted some of his personal hobbies other than WoW I could use the "fool" stereotype as well.

$80 /m for cable TV? WTF?
$xx for alcohol? WTF?
$xx smoking? WTF?

$xx (insert hobby here). WTF?

Everyone has thier on gig. This is ours. :P



How about $149.99 US for a Hellgate: London Founder's account 8)

I hope noone thinks that I said/think multi-boxers are cheating. I don't, for the record. It's quite clear what y'all are doing is inside the ToS, EULA, and the Code of Conduct, and that's all that matters to me.

Oh, and much <3 to all those who have responded. I was rather expecting to get my head chopped off (metaphorically, at least) for coming here. It's always nice to be pleasantly suprised. ./salute

[Gallo]

I didn't imply that YOU said we were cheating... just the other asshats in that thread.

[aetherg]

I don't see the need to respond to that. If we go around flaunting the fact that we can clear heroics, etc. it will just get people pissed off. The reality is that we are not as powerful as 5 people (even though we take up that many slots in a BG/arena/instance), but we are more powerful than a single person, and that will ignite drama.

I'd rather have people pass us off as no-skill weaker-than-one-real-player. If it makes them feel better to think that, good for them.

[Gurblash]

How about $149.99 US for a Hellgate: London Founder's account 8

I purchased and played HG:L upon release and was not impressed at all. Have they cleaned up alot of its bugs and 'statless' items? Might be worth a second glance.

Also a nice big /SALUTE to the host of a great podcast. Thanks for takin the time to stick your head into hostile territory to clear it up :D. Anticipate your show this weekend.

[The IT Monkey]

but we are more powerful than a single person, and that will ignite drama.No, no we're not. Our FIVE characters are more powerful than their SINGLE character. Nothing is stopping them from doing the same if they so wish. Don't give me the money argument because they could choose to only ever play the game while in a group of four other characters... just find four other like minded individuals.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

/chops off head
"WANT SOME MORE CAKE, BITCH?"

Joking aside, kudos for attempting to clear things up. Not everyone can conceptualize what we do, why we do it and how it fits into the grand scheme of our lives. We enjoy, suffer, whine, cheer and logoff in frustration just like anyone else. We just have some things we can do better and some things we canNOT do as well as solo or normal group players. Interestingly enough, we're right smack in the middle as far as capabilities. We're positively lethal to 1-3 man groups in PVP in almost all cases depending on surprise, amount of CC, etc. Conversely, we're starting from a healthy disadvantage against full normal groups again depending on surprise, amount of CC, etc. It's a niche hobby within a niche hobby. Which is probably why there are so few of us around. :)

One other point I might add to your list of things to discuss is the common whiny assertion that blizzard doesn't ban multiboxing because we pay them 5x the monthly fees and so we have some kind of "pull" with them from a monetary standpoint. This is patently absurd as we (we meaning people that multibox 3 or more chars; dragging a priest behind your 70 warrior is not multiboxing) probably constitute less than 1/100th of a percent of WoW's population (1/100th of 1% of 9million = 900; I'd bet there are less than 300 multiboxers worldwide). As such, we are statistically insignificant to Blizzard's WoW revenue. Face it: if the 20%+ of the playerbase that whines about them daily can't get hunters nerfed into oblivion, why would Blizzard kowtow to the few multiboxers that exist? :P
I don't see the need to respond to that. If we go around flaunting the fact that we can clear heroics, etc. it will just get people pissed off. The reality is that we are not as powerful as 5 people (even though we take up that many slots in a BG/arena/instance), but we are more powerful than a single person, and that will ignite drama.

I'd rather have people pass us off as no-skill weaker-than-one-real-player. If it makes them feel better to think that, good for them.Most people will form an opinion based on their own view through whatever color glasses they wear and stick to that as "fact," despite empirical evidence to the contrary. Since you can't change someone's mind who doesn't want to learn or become enlightened, why worry the slightest about them? Hey, don't get me wrong. I understand your sentiment but I'm just not going to voluntarily give someone else that kind of power over what I choose to enjoy or how much I choose to share that enjoyment with others. ;)

[Basilikos]

Octale, your clarification is welcome and appreciated.

Now, perhaps this is me being petty, but what really got me confused and/or upset was a comment (and I don't remember if it was you or Hordak that said it) about how two enhancement shaman would be easy. First, the bigger issue, is that very few, if any, MBers are doing this for EZMode. This is NOT EZMode - it takes more gold, time, and other in-game resources than solo does. This is for fun. And second, (this might be the petty part), it bugs me that people think we just pick any old character combination that consists of a bunch of quite powerful class / spec combos because it would be, again, EASY. Multiple melee characters are the hardest to play and would generally result in the worst performance since they would need to be constantly moved and otherwise micromanaged. Of course, any combination of characters has those problems in certain situations. I guess what I'm getting at is my frustration at the general lack of understanding about what we do and that it is an IWIN button.

It's not.

Also, I'd be a little more careful with how you express your opinions of multiboxing. I'm from the Denver area (and if I remember properly, you guys are, too). I see plenty of people who makes quite a bit less than I do spend much, much more than I spend on WoW each year spend on a few hours of skiing and no one EVER calls them out for it. I honestly think that people's reaction to the money and other resources that we put into MBing is more or less a reaction to the fact that WoW has just barely gone mainstream and MBing is the new 'no life' target.

And while we're at it, I'm on Icecrown US along with you and apparently a few other WoW Radio hosts. Just thought I'd mention it while you're here.

Again, thanks for the clarification.

[Bigfish]

Do I think you're a fool for doing it? Yep, and that's not going to change. Do I think there's nobility in being able to solo instances or 2-man Kara on 10 toons by multi-boxing? Nope, not one shread; that's not going to change either. If you choose to do it for the sake of doing it, by all means, do so.

I like the pot shot at calling us fools. Doesn't the same apply to most anyone playing WoW? The people spending 40 hours a week, half of it raiding, on a game? The people who put so much time and effort in to arena? The people who just grind their way to mounds of gold.?

[Tdog]

Wondering if they ever thought about, what if someone doesn't suck at playing his main. I'm talking about all those multiboxers that have main in high end raiding guilds, or reached gladiator on more characters etc...
And they just multibox because it brings out so much more from the game.Not trying to brag or anything like that but I was in a top 20 US alliance raiding guild prior to multiboxing. Point is that I am fairly decent at this game solo and by no means do I suck at playing only one toon. When I was introduced to this website roughly 6 weeks ago I was inbetween guilds as my former had just disbanded. My orginal intentions was to make a multiboxing team so I could start saving up badges for the new sunwell gear w/o having to rely on Pugs. Very shortly after I started multiboxing and realized the extreme fun and potential that was possible I more or less completely forgot about raiding altogether. I haven't had this much fun since I first started playing the game 3 years ago tbh.

Not to say that I don't ever plan on getting into another raiding guild but this adds a whole new aspect to the game that I hadn't ever experienced. For them to say things like "O Multiboxers suck so bad at playing they have to play 5 toons just to be as effective as 1 toon" is just completely ignorant blind hatred. They have absolutely no clue wtf they are talking about and tbh all of you should really just shrug things like this off. They are venting their frustrations at the w/e is easiest to attack. They have never multiboxed and thus their opinion on multiboxing means absolutely nothing to me.

Now if Ellay or Vyndree or someone who has multiboxed to a great degree all of a sudden started bashing multiboxing, that would be something to get pissed off about.

[Basilikos]

Do I think you're a fool for doing it? Yep, and that's not going to change. Do I think there's nobility in being able to solo instances or 2-man Kara on 10 toons by multi-boxing? Nope, not one shread; that's not going to change either. If you choose to do it for the sake of doing it, by all means, do so.

I like the pot shot at calling us fools. Doesn't the same apply to most anyone playing WoW? The people spending 40 hours a week, half of it raiding, on a game? The people who put so much time and effort in to arena? The people who just grind their way to mounds of gold.?

I was going to try to ignore his "fool" remark, but since someone else brought it up, I'll have a go at it, too.

In my previous post in this thread, I pointed out that he needed to be a little more careful about expressing his "concerns" and I can't state that enough. Attitudes like this are the reason there is so much animosity - the people who understand what we do hate on us for no reason whatsoever which, in due course, gives the ignorant and the other various haters a reason to get on our cases. Even here, now, his statements could give someone else room to mock us. Really, that isn't the issue so much as is the rare (tee hee) occasion on which one of us is truly harassed for MBing.

Those with a bully pulpit should watch what they say when they are wrong and even more when they are right (not that Octale is correct here) since the truth can be put so poorly that it can never be set right.

[Octale]

Do I think you're a fool for doing it? Yep, and that's not going to change. Do I think there's nobility in being able to solo instances or 2-man Kara on 10 toons by multi-boxing? Nope, not one shread; that's not going to change either. If you choose to do it for the sake of doing it, by all means, do so.

I like the pot shot at calling us fools. Doesn't the same apply to most anyone playing WoW? The people spending 40 hours a week, half of it raiding, on a game? The people who put so much time and effort in to arena? The people who just grind their way to mounds of gold.?
See, you're missing the point again. It's *your* money, do with it as you please. I am not going to throw myself at your feet crying "mea culpa" for thinking spending 30-75 dollars a month to play the same game on multimple characters at the same time is foolish. Does it really matter that I think it's foolish? You could just as easily look at any of my expenditures and say I am a fool for alloting financial resources in such a way. That's your choice, same as it is mine for thinking paying to mbox is foolish (or perhaps, "a waste of money" is a better phrase at this point).

So, by all means, pick the one slightly negative thing out of a post where I, again, state in no uncertain terms that it is *your money* and you point that out to everyone; a thing that isn't even really negative in as much as it is my honest opinion of mboxing. Now, I've been about as nice about this as I am going to be by coming here, admitting that I was wrong, and stating to Vyndree (regardless of whether she reads it or not) and this community at large that I am going to take some amount of the scarce resource that is my airtime, and try to, on some level, make things right with this community. It's bad that a month has gone by since this happened, and I wish we'd have received Vyn's email such that we could have dealt with it sooner, but we didn't. So, I'm going to do the best I can.

[Eteocles]

Aye it's all opinions Octale...I think the core thing they're trying to get at is you guys're popular and have an audience and audiences tend to be mindless sheep/lemmings and they're just worried some mis-speaking(which you did indeed apologize for and are working to correct) might cause extra issue from some of the less .... thoughtful sheep :p Or to put it in a way you'll connect with, someone's gonna hear a name and open fire with their hatorade hoses ;) Like Threadjacking but without the funny intent lol

[Tdog]

Do I think you're a fool for doing it? Yep, and that's not going to change. Do I think there's nobility in being able to solo instances or 2-man Kara on 10 toons by multi-boxing? Nope, not one shread; that's not going to change either. If you choose to do it for the sake of doing it, by all means, do so.

I like the pot shot at calling us fools. Doesn't the same apply to most anyone playing WoW? The people spending 40 hours a week, half of it raiding, on a game? The people who put so much time and effort in to arena? The people who just grind their way to mounds of gold.?
See, you're missing the point again. It's *your* money, do with it as you please. I am not going to throw myself at your feet crying "mea culpa" for thinking spending 30-75 dollars a month to play the same game on multimple characters at the same time is foolish. Does it really matter that I think it's foolish? You could just as easily look at any of my expenditures and say I am a fool for alloting financial resources in such a way. That's your choice, same as it is mine for thinking paying to mbox is foolish (or perhaps, "a waste of money" is a better phrase at this point).

So, by all means, pick the one slightly negative thing out of a post where I, again, state in no uncertain terms that it is *your money* and you point that out to everyone; a thing that isn't even really negative in as much as it is my honest opinion of mboxing. Now, I've been about as nice about this as I am going to be by coming here, admitting that I was wrong, and stating to Vyndree (regardless of whether she reads it or not) and this community at large that I am going to take some amount of the scarce resource that is my airtime, and try to, on some level, make things right with this community. It's bad that a month has gone by since this happened, and I wish we'd have received Vyn's email such that we could have dealt with it sooner, but we didn't. So, I'm going to do the best I can.Me personally I couldn't give less of a crap if you, someone I've don't know nor have I ever heard any of your shows, thinks I'm a fool for spending an extra $60 bucks a month on a hobby I like. Like you just stated in your post there are probably things I could say about you if I were given a little info on your life that I might consider foolish as well. Not trying to be a dick but your opinion of me, as I don't know you, doesn't mean a thing to me.

However...

I think some of the people here are getting upset about the fact that you insult not only that which you have not tried but, judging by some of the posts I've read from you and the users here, also don't really seem to understand what it is they do. Blind insults, suprise suprise!, do piss people off. Now this just my thoughts on the matter, and you of course don't have to care about a thing I have to say, but perhaps instead of judging something you aren't really fully understanding next time simply say something to the effect of "I don't have all the info on the topic and will not comment on it till I do." But hey that's just my opinion and take it however you like.

As I said in a previous post in this thread though, people need to get thicker skins. I've been called much much worse than a fool every single time I log on. I get a hate msg probably once every 20-30 mins. Telling me that "YOU'RE A FUCKING LOSER WITH NO GAWD LIFE!" "GET LAID YOU STUPID P.O.S!!!" "NO LIFE NO LIFE NO LIFE!!!" "So what's it like living in your mom's basement at age 35?" "It's assholes like you that destroy this game. Go kill yourself dickwad!" I can keep going on for awhile but I think you get my point. And no....I'm not exaggerating even a little bit on those comments, all of which were said to me from people I had never met that were simply passing by.

[Bigfish]

See, you're missing the point again. It's *your* money, do with it as you please. I am not going to throw myself at your feet crying "mea culpa" for thinking spending 30-75 dollars a month to play the same game on multimple characters at the same time is foolish. Does it really matter that I think it's foolish? You could just as easily look at any of my expenditures and say I am a fool for alloting financial resources in such a way. That's your choice, same as it is mine for thinking paying to mbox is foolish (or perhaps, "a waste of money" is a better phrase at this point).

So, by all means, pick the one slightly negative thing out of a post where I, again, state in no uncertain terms that it is *your money* and you point that out to everyone; a thing that isn't even really negative in as much as it is my honest opinion of mboxing. Now, I've been about as nice about this as I am going to be by coming here, admitting that I was wrong, and stating to Vyndree (regardless of whether she reads it or not) and this community at large that I am going to take some amount of the scarce resource that is my airtime, and try to, on some level, make things right with this community. It's bad that a month has gone by since this happened, and I wish we'd have received Vyn's email such that we could have dealt with it sooner, but we didn't. So, I'm going to do the best I can.

See, that's just the thing, its hard to bury the hatchet when you continue to make statements like that. You think were fools? Awesome! I'm sure most people here think no better of you. We don't need you to tell us how little we ought to value your opinion. However, perhaps instead of acting like we ought to just sit back and ignore you consistantly sliding in comments on the side, you should take your own advice. If you want to make things right with the community, stop slipping in "I still think you're fools" at every opportunity. We're aware. Its been beaten in to the ground plenty. Making things right would require you to STOP doing what caused the conflict in the first place.

[Basilikos]

...I think the core thing they're trying to get at is you guys're popular and have an audience and audiences tend to be mindless sheep/lemmings and they're just worried some mis-speaking(which you did indeed apologize for and are working to correct) might cause extra issue from some of the less .... thoughtful sheep :p

That's pretty much it. I pointed out earlier that I just don't understand some people's desire to spend thousands a year on a few hours of skiing. But I don't call them fools when the subject comes up. See the difference? I don't call you a fool for anything, I merely admonish you to be a little more covert with the way you handle your ideas on strictly subjective matters.

And, for the record, we're not asking for an apology; we just want you to stop with the kneejerk remarks since they have huge potential to cause problems for us.

[Vyndree]

Vyndree, I'm quite concerned that I can't find your email in the show's inbox.

Sorry for the late response. I've been on a bit of a forum hiatus and haven't been checking up as recently as I should.

The e-mail is copy-pasted in this thread, as well as my blog ('http://vboxing.net/blog/webs.php/2008/03/24/my-e-mail-to-octale-aamp-hordak-of-wcrad'). :)

In any case, I will re-send the e-mail to both wcradioshowsATgmail.com and octaleandhordakATgmail.com -- though the former address (wcradioshows) bounced when I originally sent it.

[Basilikos]

Vyn,

Glad you're still alive. I thought you ought to know that on yesterday's show, Octale blasted MBers again and then refused to read anymore emails on it. I think he's a little sore in a sensitive place. I don't know why; he's trying to claim that we were harsh with him.

I'm not quite sure where to go with this. Really, a lot of what he did on his show was decent stuff and the rest of it was pure bile. I just don't get it.

Anyhow, just letting you know.

[Octale]

Vyn,

Glad you're still alive. I thought you ought to know that on yesterday's show, Octale blasted MBers again and then refused to read anymore emails on it. I think he's a little sore in a sensitive place. I don't know why; he's trying to claim that we were harsh with him.

I'm not quite sure where to go with this. Really, a lot of what he did on his show was decent stuff and the rest of it was pure bile. I just don't get it.

Anyhow, just letting you know.

Which part exactly was blasting? The part where I told my audience that multiboxing was not a skill or social issue, but was rather a play-style choice, and that anyone who was a part of my listenerbase should leave you alone? I've done nothing but defend your right to make your choice, regardless of what I think of said choice. I made it (what I thought was) excrutiatingly clear that MBoxers are exactly the same to everyone else in the greater WoW community, and should be allowed to exist in peace the same as any other member of the community. I don't intend on saying anything more about it than that.

With that, I leave you to your game expereince. Vyn, please listen to the segment, and if you still feel I've done you wrong, then I'll bring you on the show to "have your say". Otherwise, I bid this community a pleasant time in WoW, or whatever games you choose to play.

Regards,

Octale

[Bigfish]

Which part exactly was blasting? The part where I told my audience that multiboxing was not a skill or social issue, but was rather a play-style choice, and that anyone who was a part of my listenerbase should leave you alone? I've done nothing but defend your right to make your choice, regardless of what I think of said choice. I made it (what I thought was) excrutiatingly clear that MBoxers are exactly the same to everyone else in the greater WoW community, and should be allowed to exist in peace the same as any other member of the community. I don't intend on saying anything more about it than that.

With that, I leave you to your game expereince. Vyn, please listen to the segment, and if you still feel I've done you wrong, then I'll bring you on the show to "have your say". Otherwise, I bid this community a pleasant time in WoW, or whatever games you choose to play.

Regards,

Octale

Well put.

[Basilikos]

I made it (what I thought was) excrutiatingly clear that MBoxers are exactly the same to everyone else in the greater WoW community, and should be allowed to exist in peace the same as any other member of the community. I don't intend on saying anything more about it than that.

But you have said more than that. I acknowledge that a massive portion of the First Blood segment was dedicated to a respectful clearing-up of common misconceptions in the WoW population regarding MBing. The issue is that your most virulent speech is dedicated to referring to MBers as foolish. Really, we knew what you think of it by default since "foolish" is the number one adjective used to describe us and no one is faulting you for it. The problem rears its ugly head when, especially in this thread but also during your broadcast, you make an excellent attempt at an apology (which, to the best of my recollection, was never expected) but follow it up with more remarks about "foolishness." Usually, this is categorized as a back-handed insult and almost always has the effect of negating any attempts at patching up poor relations. Albeit you were very careful in your most recent broadcast to confine your opinions about our activities to the realm of your personal opinion and nothing else (at least for purposes of the discussion, anyway), but I was hoping the show would be limited to nothing more than the skill / playstyle and other such matters.

Just before the beginning of the First Blood segment, you pointed out that you were going to clarify a few things and then take MBers to task a little since someone in here called you a hypocrite. Well, limiting things to the way they were before your broadcast aired, their criticism of you was technically correct. You offered some sort of an apology and then proceeded to criticize us. I've said it before and I'll say it again - We didn't really expect an apology but appreciate your willingness to hear us out. However, one is not in a position to make any comments about a person or a group of persons immediately after apologizing to them which is what you did.

In case I have failed to clearly state the crux of the matter (which is often a fault of mine), I'll try to sum it up given the background material I have covered here so far. Perhaps many of us are perceiving your intentions wrongly and if we are, please let us know. As it stands now, especially given the history of abuse MBers take on a very frequent basis, your apology was undermined by immediate criticism and someone called you on it; this is AWFULLY familiar to all of us here at dual-boxing.com and it got some of us worried. It almost seemed like your commentary about our playstyle belies your true intentions.

I'll stop for a moment and point out this is how things SEEM. Wrong? Perhaps. But please understand this situation has not presented anything new to us yet and we are going purely off of experience here.

Continuing... Your show basically followed the same lines of discussion and really seems like nothing different when put up against what has gone on in this thread. Wrong? Perhaps. I'm trying to be even handed here, but you have sent mixed signals. And I'm not referring to your opinions about our purchase decisions, I'm referring to the time and place of your expression of those decisions. American culture tends to accept back-handed insults in the form of "I'm sorry, but..." and that might be alright for most people; since you've lived in the US your whole life (or most of it, I assume) you probably weren't aware what was really being said. If that's the case, I'll drop the subject right now. Experience tells me that usually is not the case, though.

And for the record, your show content would have been fine as-is, especially the more opinionated parts, if we had been able to have a better discussion here prior to the show since what went on in this thread would have provided some sort of a positive basis. Instead, some of us were left with, at best, confusing indicators of what your intentions were. In that context, we really couldn't hear much more than blasting on your show despite my previous acknowledgment of the far more accurate picture of MBers provided on your most recent show.

I hope this is at least clearing up where I'm coming from, even if it is due to some sort of misunderstanding.

[thinus]

People actually listen to WCRadio? They seriously need to get a life. Isn't playing the game enough? What's next? WoW underwear? Is that a Ragnaros figurine in your pocket or are you just happy to see me? People actually present on WCRadio, as in spend real time preparing shows and crap like that? Can't they hack it as *real* DJs? Why are they wasting their time like this? Don't they have anything constructive to do?

DISCLAIMER: This product is meant for educational purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. List each check separately by bank number. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. Do not use while operating a motor vehicle or heavy equipment. Postage will be paid by addressee. Subject to CAB approval. This is not an offer to sell securities. Apply only to affected area. May be too intense for some viewers. Do not stamp. Use other side for additional listings. For recreational use only. Do not disturb. All models over 18 years of age. If condition persists, consult your physician.

[Eteocles]

I dunno it didn't seem that bad lol; yeah, he thinks it's silly, but that's his right to think, he's not saying we're wrong, just weird. That's the main thing we wanted was that it's not something "wrong", just different, dislike it all ya want that's yer right but alot of us enjoy it and alot of non-boxers are interested as well just as there's plenty of idiots who think they're all literally clones of the same char or bots etc lol

I'd say it ended on a relatively fair note, he doesn't have to like it and he did tell his audience to not fuck around with us in irresponsible ways, we're still players just silly etc :p

And an extra note...Octale & Hordak're known for their "Hatorade" so it's not exactly an information show to begin with, just arguments and discussion with the entertainment and we had that ;) (I still <3 Max Speed & Vendor Trash more though, sorry Octale >P)

[thinus]

I'd say it ended on a relatively fair note, he doesn't have to like it and he did tell his audience to not fuck around with us in irresponsible ways, we're still players just silly etc :p

Oh, by all means, please do fuck around with us.

[Samuel L. Jackson]
There's a passage I got memorized. Ezekiel 25:17. The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you. I been sayin' that shit for years. And if you ever heard it, it meant your ass. I never really questioned what it meant. I thought it was just a cold-blooded thing to say to a motherfucker before you popped a cap in his ass. But I saw some shit this mornin' made me think twice. Now I'm thinkin': it could mean you're the evil man. And I'm the righteous man. And Mr. 9mm here, he's the shepherd protecting my righteous ass in the valley of darkness. Or it could be you're the righteous man and I'm the shepherd and it's the world that's evil and selfish. I'd like that.

But that shit ain't the truth. The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd.
[/Samuel L. Jackson]

[opt]

Yeah they are calling 5boxing a perversion and all about account sales here ('http://wcradio.com/forum/index.php?topic=3181.0')fucking major rofl

[Ðeceased]

Hokay just wanted to throw something into the mix.

I haven't listened to your broadcast nor have I any inclination to do so.
I don't particularly care about the opinions of those bashing or otherwise trying to harm this community (I'm not specifying you here btw, just ppl in general).
What we do is legal and thus we are fully entitled to do it. Others are also fully entitled to say what they like about me or others like me. All depending on the medium of communication and the parameters and conditions allowed by said medium (the forum administrators own perception of right or wrong on this webby for instance).

on to this discussion however and those that do follow your broadcasts..

As stated I do not listen to your broadcasts, but to argue a point, seemingly relevant, and an obvious concern of fellow boxers, I would like to state the following.

I for one welcome you to the forums, I admire your courage in treading unfamiliar and potentially hostile ground to clarify your position. As every other person you are entitled to your position and can say whatever you please about us (again subject to our beloved admins or your own, on your site).
I appreciate that you want to appear neutral on the grounds of it's legality, skill etc and hold your own opinions on whether on not someone if foolish/etc for doing something like this. You are fully entitled to that opinion.
My concern however is that you appear to be expecting this community to welcome insults with open arms. The truth is, we may respect your right to say and think what you like, but we (at least me) do not respect any insults.

Often used statements such as the.. "I'm sorry, but..." or "...No offence", when a statement is clearly meant offensively is no excuse and no justification for any such slander or insult.

Again I am only going on what I've read, so please ignore and disregard this, if it is not applicable to your broadcast. It is merely meant to explain my own and likely some other boxers position on this matter.

[Basilikos]

I'll try to boil things down even further (and maybe concede a little ground for the sake of furthering discussion). IMO, Octale has presented two very different faces inside this thread and I'm not really sure which is the context his other messages / communications / whatever ought to be considered.

[Bigfish]

You know, I think everyone just needs to stop getting their panties in a knot over this. Yeah, it sucks when someone with a media outlet goes on a tirade. However, he came here, he tried to clear things up, he admited he shouldn't have blasted the community the way he did, and from what I gather the subject is more or less done with on the show unless Vyndree wants to make an appearance.

The way this community is responding isn't exactly putting us in the best light either. It seems we got a nice chunk of folks here who like to play the martyr card. Hell, its almsot like we have our own "forum watch" going on and every time a thread gets posted on the wow boards someone links it here. Every time someone says something in game, we cap the conversation and post it. A lot of people also have this attitude that we're better than everyone else because we do what we do.

At the end of the day, who really cares what Octale thinks or does on his show? He doesn't like multiboxing, big whoop. A LOT of people don't like it for one reason or another. So long as he's not openly telling people to harrass us in game, i don't really care what he has to say.

[Eteocles]

In the case of this thread, it was posted as an awareness thing; some non-blizz/whiner publicity(and there's no such thing as bad publicity)

In the case of screencapping convos and linking to wow forum threads, those are purely for entertainment purposes; I personally love laughing at what would be, if not for modern reasons, victims of natural selection.

[Knytestorme]

A lot of people also have this attitude that we're better than everyone else because we do what we do.
And for the most part we are. There are currently ~10 mill players in WoW, out of them I'd put people liek Ellay, Vyndree, Suvega, Veronika and others pretty much behind those people that worked initial strats for raid instances in terms of game skill with regards to mechanics, theorycrafting and execution and I'd put just about every other serious multiboxer not too far behind them...but fuck yes we are better than just about everyone else that plays WoW because of what we do.



At the end of the day, who really cares what Octale thinks or does on his show? He doesn't like multiboxing, big whoop. A LOT of people don't like it for one reason or another. So long as he's not openly telling people to harrass us in game, i don't really care what he has to say.
At the end of the day I still will have absolutely no clue who either of them are or if they have acheived anything of substance in WoW (and doubt it since I had never heard of them before this blowup at any decent site like FoH, Ej, etc) and I could give two fucks what they think about multiboxing or multiboxers in regards to it being legal or not. What I do care about is them going on their show and proceeding to disparage and insinuate that all multiboxers are cheats, then come here and pretend to apologize while calling us fools.

If he was serious he'd have come here, apolgized to Vyndree for not getting her email (like anyone actually believes that anyway...hey, let's go there now it's been over a month and claim we never got it) and said something along the lines of "well I disagree with multiboxing, but Blizzard approves it so while it's not for me..good luck to you all andenjoy your games", that's it..simple, states he doesn't like it but doesn't personally insult every person here at the same time as he is supposedly apologizing.

[NevadaGuy]

Let it go guys, sheesh.

[Ðeceased]

You know, I think everyone just needs to stop getting their panties in a knot over this. Yeah, it sucks when someone with a media outlet goes on a tirade. However, he came here, he tried to clear things up, he admited he shouldn't have blasted the community the way he did, and from what I gather the subject is more or less done with on the show unless Vyndree wants to make an appearance.

The way this community is responding isn't exactly putting us in the best light either. It seems we got a nice chunk of folks here who like to play the martyr card. Hell, its almsot like we have our own "forum watch" going on and every time a thread gets posted on the wow boards someone links it here. Every time someone says something in game, we cap the conversation and post it. A lot of people also have this attitude that we're better than everyone else because we do what we do.

At the end of the day, who really cares what Octale thinks or does on his show? He doesn't like multiboxing, big whoop. A LOT of people don't like it for one reason or another. So long as he's not openly telling people to harrass us in game, i don't really care what he has to say.

Personally, I would like to know if something is being said about me (not necessarily me personally but you know what i mean), so I approve of those linking the threads.

As for our attitude towards others.. In light of someone being presented with hard facts, numerous times, and still claiming it to be against ToS or whatever they may think it is going against, then yes, MY attitude towards them changes in a flash.. not because I am a mboxer and they are not, but simply because they are often ignorant, stubborn and some other adjectives i neither care to use nor have any clue what they mean.. :P
This type of person is often flamed by hundreds of players not necessarily just the mboxing community.

Your observations highlight something tho.. the reason why in almost every single thread it appears as tho we take the snob approach and seem to look down on ppl, is because 99% of the time these threads are nothing but a whine, posted by alts or ppl that make absolutly no sense (that 1% is there.. somewhere.. and when found it usually results in a semi constructive and informative thread).
It is also a huge reflection however on one particular fact. Those that understand Blizz's stance on mboxing, or the reasons ppl mbox, or whatever.. and still dislike it, tend not to post.. at all! meaning the majority of posts we reply to are those of, for lack of a more politically correct work, idiots, who believe everything we do is a bannable offence, and that we should be heckled and insulted for it. It is those ppl I have no time for and feel nearly justified in thinking myself better then them (I stress nearly - I don't as a general rule - may be my downfall because I tend to think everyone has something worthwhile to say).

I give credit where credit is due, and none where none is due.

Knyte might think he's better then everyone else tho ^^

oh and PS Knyte: I think Vyn said the first email had bounced, so I don't think it's a case of him making stuff up

[Bigfish]

At the end of the day I still will have absolutely no clue who either of them are or if they have acheived anything of substance in WoW (and doubt it since I had never heard of them before this blowup at any decent site like FoH, Ej, etc) and I could give two fucks what they think about multiboxing or multiboxers in regards to it being legal or not. What I do care about is them going on their show and proceeding to disparage and insinuate that all multiboxers are cheats, then come here and pretend to apologize while calling us fools.

I just listened to the last show. Summed up in few words, that took him 20 minuts to say, he admits he was wrong about multiboxers selling accounts, not being skilled, or being socially distanced, against the ToS, etc etc. He then blasts the community for being uppity. Hey, look at that. I'm not going to disagree with him there. We are uppity. We love our soapbox. I'd say we're about as uppity as he is. Big deal. Agree to disagree and move on.

If the guy wants to continue ranting about what fools we are, just imagine him as the D&D guy at the games store, ranting about how Magic the Gathering is a horrible game, or Warhammer is lame, how this FPS is better than that FPS and everyone who plays that FPS is a noob, whatever. We came, we saw, we had our conflict, its over.

[Knytestorme]

I give credit where credit is due, and none where none is due.

Knyte might think he's better then everyone else tho ^^

oh and PS Knyte: I think Vyn said the first email had bounced, so I don't think it's a case of him making stuff up

Nope, I readily admit there are people out there better than me, and named them...I certainly am not a good multiboxer yet and wouldn't claim to be but I would say that I, and anyone else on this forum that do it seriously, are better players and take the game more seriously than 99% of the other WoW players out there and better than 100% of the muppets that qq on the forums :)

As for the emails, my understanding from Vyndree's comments were that she sent to both emails and one of them bounced. If she corrects me then I'll quite readily take back that comment.

[Ðeceased]

hehe was ofc only joking :) I know what you meant ^^

[Octale]

Here we go...one last shot at trying to sort of "put this to bed" in a manner of speaking. For those who don't want to listen to the show, here's the paraphrased version of the segment after listening to it ~6 or so times this morning.

First, Vyn sent us an email and it got lost somehow. I have no reason to lie about this, nor do I have reason to address the mboxing topic other than a long standing show standard to address feedback from people who believe we've "done them wrong". Vyn's email was very much that, and it was only through my own vanity in googling myself that I stumbled across it. At that point, I decided to make Vyn's email the "first blood" topic for the 4/27/08 episode of OnHVW.

Second, stating that mboxing was some sort of social or skill related issue was arrogant and ignorant on my part. I freely admit that. I can understand wanting to add a level of difficulty to the game. I derive that difficulty from attempting to complete group content. Some amount of the mboxing commmunity derives that difficulty from playing multiple chars at the same time. Whatever one wants to do to add replayability is a-okay by me.

Third, there's nothing in the EULA, ToS or Code of Conduct that makes multi-boxing "illegial" or against any rule. In that respect (and it's the only one that matters to me), the mboxing community is no different than any other member of the WoW Playerbase. Assuming mboxers don't violate any other rules in the course of their playing (such as the nebulous "Conduct unbecomming a WoW Player"), then they're entitled to the same protections any other member of the WoW Playerbase is. Further, noone should harrass nor chastize an mboxer simply for being an mboxer.

Fourth, I cannot provide validation for your choice to maintain more than one WoW account. Even if I could validate that choice, I wouldn't. I feel the same way about anyone who maintains more than one account. That said, I am not value judging the individual who makes that choice, nor am I saying that I haven't made 6.02*10^23 galacticly stupid choices myself. It's not about what I think about your choice that matters. What matters is, it is your choice. You've made that choice; I'll defend your right to make it with my dieing breath, but I won't give the choice validity...only you can do that.

Fifth, the mboxing communtiy ought to be left to their own devices. Their playstyle is as valid as anyone's.

So that's it. As to who we are....we're nobody. 2 guys who decided in spring '06 to start doing a podcast. We've been gamers all our lives, and have alot to say about gaming (including WoW). Neither one of us participates (to my knowledge) at EJ or any other website of note other than WoW Radio. Some folks have said we're the best show on the net; others have called us a steaming pile of poo. Listen, don't listen, that's another one of those choices only you can make and only you can validate. As to who's the better player...if it really matters that much, you win. I cannot deny the proficiency at which the macros y'all use are coded. I've never had the need for them, so I don't use them (other than silly ones, like yelling "Ha-do-ken" when I cast a fireball). However, credit where it is due, to be able to code a set of macros to do solo, 5-man, 10-man content is a feat indeed (that question was never asked of me, by the way).

I know "tl,dr;pihb", but I guess this is some attempt at full disclosure or something. I do think it's a little disingenuous to say I am two-faced, a liar, or a hypocrite, but I think I'll survive. Bigfish, Eteocles, and Deceased....thank you. You've been more than reasonable during this episode, and I appreciate that a great deal. ./salute

[Basilikos]

I do think it's a little disingenuous to say I am two-faced, a liar, or a hypocrite, but I think I'll survive.

Glad to hear it. As a very friendly reminder, you did post something that was at best perplexing regarding your intentions and the like. If this means your purposes here were simply good-natured, I'll take your word for it and retract any allegations of nefarious deeds regardless of your personal opinions (since they were never the issue here).

[Eteocles]

/me flips on the Sunshine and Farts switch "GROUP HUG!" lolz

[Basilikos]

You know, I think everyone just needs to stop getting their panties in a knot over this.

True, but I think people are missing what I was upset about. Octale, whether or not he intended too, posted a back-handed insult. His show was almost the exact same format (only with far more detail) as his first post here and in light of that, I was worried. As we've progressed discussion here, I'm come to realize his actual intent and will drop the accusations.

On a lighter note, I think what we learned from this is that although Vyndree's email was quite nice, we might do a better job of regulating our responses to these incidents (in reference to the first Octale & Hordak show mentioned here) since most of our reaction was more or less blowing off steam at the frequency of misunderstandings about MBing. All in all, Octale's statements about why we do what we do are pretty common. We were really just worried about the audience and wanted him to stop. Dedicating an entire segment to the corrections was, in hindsight, generous.

[Bigfish]

I think the big issue behind all this is that we DO put a lot of... thought power, I guess.... in to getting this sort of thing to work. Even more so, I think we like sharing what we've discovered about the game itself through boxing. As such, its no wonder we're all defensive on the matter. Its especially annoying when we have do deal with people who talk about things and get stuff WRONG. For that, someone ought to be giving Octale a damn hooker and a handshake for taking the time to at least read up and respond, amit he was wrong on some things, (even if he thinks we're all fools) and take some time (A large chunk, actually) out of the show to say "They just play WoW, like everyone else."

That said, you learn a lot from boxing. You learn a lot from playing solo too. I would conjecture that you can't determine whether one is better or a more valid playstyle than the other. Yeah, the WoW forums are filled with moronic idiots rambling about how they lost in PvP. While they're fun to poke at, don't give them too much credit. Some people you can throw every fact and reality of multiboxing at them, and they won't admit they were wrong. I would say we're quite fortunate in that we got someone reasonable enough to have an intelligent discussion with.

I do have to wonder though if Octale's opinion would change if we didn't pay extra for our accounts, and more so if we could dig up the number of people who keep multiple accounts but don't box. I know a lot of people keep a second one around for one reason or another, I'mjust not sure on the actual number.

[Vyndree]

Alrighty, I've actually gotten a chance to listen to the radio show (sorry about the lateness, I've been trying my best to catch up hehe).

We, in fact, are mouth breathing retards sometimes. ;) We have nobody else to blame for mistakes by ourselves. Let me tell you, having Suvega "accidentally" pom+pyro one of the shackles on Moroes and wipe us at 5% on our first Karazhan.... Yeah....

I appreciate the clarity on your show about rules, harassment, and multiboxing. ;) While I didn't expect to drastically change your opinion on multiboxing through my e-mail, I appreciate the added clarity made between opinion, fact, the rules, and anti-multiboxer harassment. In fact, you were quite right in that the majority of us just care to be left to our own multiboxing fun times. Which is all fun and good as long as we're not breaking the rules (which multiboxing in and of itself does not).

The reason that I sent my original e-mail was so that you could be more informed when multiboxing topics come up on your show, since a large amount of harassment we get is based on misinformation -- "you must be botting", "you must be account selling", "you must be hacking", "you must be bribing blizzard with shiny things", "you must be living in your mother's basement", "you must be a social misfit", and on and on and on. We've gotten every form of harassment known to man, and clarity from public figures goes a long way towards disambiguating between rumor and fact.

In any case, I appreciate you taking the time to go through my e-mail publicly. As you can see, many of the community have invested quite a bit of time, money, and effort into this hobby, and, like all hobbyists, we are very passionate about what we do and protecting our right to continue enjoying our hobby without being inhibited by the general public (they're sheep! sheep I tell you!). :) I'd imagine it would be much like you would be passionate about someone who publicly bashed on internet radiocasting. In the end, we're all just WoW players -- and all the multiboxing community is trying to do is minimize the number of foul-mouthed 13 year olds running around ruining their fun.

Congrats on venturing into the viper's nest to try and clarify things ;) Stay light on your toes, I (among other multiboxers) have been rumored to bite when provoked. While you're welcome to your opinions (as is everyone) it's sometimes a wiser choice to choose your words carefully when running around in hostile territory. ;)

[Basilikos]

I do have to wonder though if Octale's opinion would change if we didn't pay extra for our accounts, and more so if we could dig up the number of people who keep multiple accounts but don't box. I know a lot of people keep a second one around for one reason or another, I'mjust not sure on the actual number.

I don't think it would. See below. And if Octale reads this, don't take it as hostility. I'm attempting something here - I'm trying to operate under the assumption that your efforts here are meant to be constructive. This assumption has lead me to some difficulties that I'm afraid I can't resolve on my own that I would like help with.



... Whatever one wants to do to add replayability is a-okay by me. ...
... Further, noone should harrass nor chastize an mboxer simply for being an mboxer. ...
... I cannot provide validation for your choice to maintain more than one WoW account. Even if I could validate that choice, I wouldn't. ... but I won't give the choice validity ...




... Whatever one wants to do to add replayability is a-okay by me. ... but I won't give the choice validity ...
... Further, noone should harrass nor chastize an mboxer simply for being an mboxer. ... Even if I could validate that choice, I wouldn't. ...


Particularly, the part about not acknowledging our reasons for MBing even if you were presented with rationale for such. Again, I'm not trying to pigeonhole Octale into some sort of anti-MBer stance, but one must admit that my cause for concern, which has been laid out, is at least somewhat grounded in reality. CONCERN, I say. And given my commitment to now trying to understand what is going on here, I would hope that no one blows that out of proportion.

Like I said, this is nothing more than my trying to understand at this point.

----------

On a related note, I understand that it is not pleasant to be labeled as 'two-faced,' 'hypocritical,' or any other such name. I'm trying to go off of a foundation that Octale did not intend any of his communications to be this way and comprehend his meaning from that point onward. I would hope that the community here at DB.com can see why I was worried in the first place, since some people weren't totally on the same page I was (at least in my perception).