Dev Watercooler: MoP PVP

[MiRai]

http://us.battle.net//wow/en/blog/7702178

[Fat Tire]

Small Groups joining Rated Battlegrounds – We still don’t want to let solo players queue for Rated Battlegrounds because it would undermine the intent of coordinated group PvP, and then they really just become normal Battlegrounds that reward better gear. However, we’ve heard your concerns that getting even 10 players together to queue for a Rated Battleground can be challenging. Our idea is to let a group of 5 players queue together, which we would then match with another group of 5 players. We think this can still provide a relatively balanced and viable team. One of the crazier ideas on the table would be to convert some of our smaller Battlegrounds, such as Gilneas, to have a 5v5 option.

Interesting

Looking forward to the rating changes.

[Shodokan]

It will give people more ability to get higher ratings which is nice... but top players keeping active means they will reach over 3k ratings again like when mmr was abused and will also make it much harder for toons made late season to compete for titles.

[Lyonheart]

I loved Wintergrasp.. this would make me happy if it goes through >> Ie..WG and TB
We are discussing making level 90 versions of these PvP zones that players could queue for to earn bonus honor.
As I said, this is a brain dump of a lot of ideas that a lot of different developers are working on. This is not a list of patch notes and not all of these may come to pass. Please let us know what you think, if we’re on the right track, or if you think we missed a big PvP issue. PvP balance is always going to be really subjective, and while balance is desirable, continual buffs and nerfs that don’t actually solve problems have the potential to be worse than the imbalances they’re trying to fix.

Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft. He has NEVER impersonated a female in the game in order to get loot.

[Fat Tire]

Little disappointed he didnt talk about region wide arena queues. Would have loved to have seen that included.

[remanz]

shadow priest will rule arena without hunters / warriors to keep them in check

[Multibocks]

Seriously they think crowd control isn't crazy right now. I'm not down with that. Its way over board and needs a solid Nerf.

[zenga]

Seriously they think crowd control isn't crazy right now. I'm not down with that. Its way over board and needs a solid Nerf.

The amount of cc is not overboard imo, it's how they work/interact. I like how ferals could instant cyclone in cata (not uo tp date with ferals in mop to know if it still works like that): you saw their proc, and you could purge it off / los - i.e. you had a way to counter it. Blanket silences, spammable instant fears, instant aoe stuns, ... thats what causes the main problem. That and dr's on follow up cc that comes from the same player, regardless of the type of cc. I still don't think that a mage should be able to blanket silence, poly, root, deep, poly, ... you. Warriors are the best example now, they can reach you anywhere on the map with heroic leap / double charge, shockwave / gag order through heroic throw, and there is nothing you can do to avoid it for certain classes. If they would give shockwave a cast time like they did with the frost dk aoe spell in cata (forgot name), like the tauren stun, even allow it to be cast on the move, then at least one would stand a chance to counter it.

TLDR There is no downside for using quite a lot of cc abilities in the game (e.g. if you wind shear while nothing is cast it's on cd, so that is a clear downside) and there is no way to avoid them. So rather than reducing the amount of cc i'd much rather see them change how they work/interact.

[remanz]

ya , feral can still do that. Instant cyclone. Elementals just had the same old problem as always "when getting trained, it has no damage", Now adding a new problem "when it was not trained, it has supar damage". The crazy burst if left free casting is gone. They should at least give something like "self cast only" bloodlust in area for shamans. and without the burst, elemental shamans just have no clear roles in pvp. subpar CC + subpar burst + subpar support (Paladins (Ret) are the better support).

blizzards idea of fun game play is to have more reactive button presses. So CC and counter CC become the main game in pvp. This creates problems for boxing as we cannot effectively utilize all these reactive CDs.

[remanz]

looks like hunter is already fixed (nerfed)



Stampede Pets summoned into the Arena, Rated Battlegrounds, and Wargames will now do the correct amount of damage.


rumor has it it was not factoring in resilience for damage for the pets. Now it does. So it is like a 50% damage nerf.

[valkry]

looks like hunter is already fixed (nerfed)



Stampede Pets summoned into the Arena, Rated Battlegrounds, and Wargames will now do the correct amount of damage.



rumor has it it was not factoring in resilience for damage for the pets. Now it does. So it is like a 50% damage nerf.

Stampede isn't the only problem with BM hunters. If that's the only change, they are still going to rape.

[remanz]

BW Immune to CC removal on the pet is 5.1 I think. Stampede is now. Lynx rush also 50% down in 5.1. I don't think BM hunters can rape anymore. Though Mark/Survival might

[heyaz]

There are a whole crapload more changes as of yesterday, posted on mmo-champion.com Somes nerfs and buffs all over. Still not a single word about Shaman though. I don't know if they've got a plan, or think shaman are in a good place or what. I've played my shaman solo and it's still the worst class/spec in pvp at the moment, and the wow community seems to agree. Not a whole lot has changed on DK's though, which is a pretty popular multiboxing comp at the moment. Frost DK's are still topping damage in most BGs though, reminds me of Cata.

Overall I'm mostly just seeing some nerfs here and there to abilities on overpowered classes but not much to address stacking cooldowns and CC's. When I saw the new talent trees in beta I something bad may happen - but not to this extent. When you give some classes multiple AOE cc's, multiple shadowstep/recklessness/ice veins/etc. etc. type cooldowns plus a god mode cooldown that can all be used at once... seriously what did they expect? What it looked like at first: ok you can have this crazy CD, but you lose this, you can have this defensive ability, but you lose this. What it actually played like: you can have most of them at the same time as any spec, use them at the same time and they're off the GCD. Have fun!

[Kruschpakx4]

I've played my shaman solo and it's still the worst class/spec in pvp at the moment, and the wow community seems to agree.

10/28 numbers:

Warrior: 358 = 20.19%
Hunter: 277 = 15.62%
Paladin: 238 = 13.42%
Shaman: 221 = 12.46%
Druid: 209 = 11.79%
Priest: 164 = 9.25%
Mage: 161 = 9.08%
Warlock: 58 = 3.27%
DK: 52 = 2.93%
Rogue: 18 = 1.02%
Monk: 17 = 0.96%

Total : 1773

With warrior and hunter nerfs I dont think blizzard should buff shamans, resto and enhancement is pretty good atm, and this (http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/arena/stormscale/3v3/woteva%20kant/) team plays elemental/shadow/holy, I'd like to see some ele buffs but I think its not going to happen, rather hope for shockwave and other cc nerfs, 5.1 looks really good so far, especially with cataclysm removed

[zenga]

, and this (http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/arena/stormscale/3v3/woteva%20kant/) team plays elemental/shadow/holy, I'd like to see some ele buffs

Thing is, he is the only ele that does it that good, but taking all crap going on in the past season into account, I really have my reservations if it's all legit. I haven't seen a game from them on stream/youtube, and he remains the only one that is successful as ele.

That being said I kinda have hope that there will be a dmg increase for ele in 4.1. My reasoning is that with the start of this raiding tier ele was really good, but as everyone gets more gear (i.e. dotclasses reaching haste caps) they are leaving ele behind on a good amount of fights. And that will only get worse with more heroic raiding gear. They could easily buff the lightning bolt part of shamanism without increasing ele's burst during ascendance. And that's my guess.

Unless there are bigger changes to come and that that is why there are little to none ele changes in the ptr patch notes so far.

My fear is that they'll nerf resto's in ways that will impact eles (like at the start of cataclysm). And worst case scenario is a nerf to hybrids with pvp power, and without defensive buffs that would be a complete catastrophe for eles (though its a needed nerf for spriests).

[heyaz]

You didn't break it down by spec but:


Shaman: 221 = 12.46%

Is mostly resto. I meant ele is the worst pvp spec at the moment. And a gladiator R1/R2 guy pulling off elemental in his 3s with other players his skill level... doesn't really change my mind

[valkry]

You didn't break it down by spec but:



Is mostly resto. I meant ele is the worst pvp spec at the moment. And a gladiator R1/R2 guy pulling off elemental in his 3s with other players his skill level... doesn't really change my mind
That 3s team doesn't surprise me. Just wait for trinkets to be burned, at least double fear, and that's when to pop ascendance. Ele shams get basically 1 chance every 3 mins to make a "god mode burst" kill. part of the skill of arenas is knowing when to pop cds. Popping ascendance + EM just before a war charges + gag order on you will wreck all your chances, and that comes with experience and addons to tell you when their abilities are off cd.

But yea, most shams in high rated teams are resto, and that's because resto is really powerful atm. Ele is not

[Fat Tire]

10/28 numbers:



With warrior and hunter nerfs I dont think blizzard should buff shamans, resto and enhancement is pretty good atm, and this (http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/arena/stormscale/3v3/woteva kant/) team plays elemental/shadow/holy, I'd like to see some ele buffs but I think its not going to happen, rather hope for shockwave and other cc nerfs, 5.1 looks really good so far, especially with cataclysm removed

You wont see a shockwave nerf. They nerfed war fear to 90 secs from 60, Avatar and gag order. They wont touch shockwave because then they would need to change dragons roar and bladestorm and adjust pve for prot.

Damage outside of cooldowns is too low, however cooldowns is what wins games at the moment.

[Kruschpakx4]

"Shockwave, Avatar, and Recklessness are also mentioned a lot, and we’re looking at them as well."

as long as people keep complaining, they might nerf it and to be honest shockwave is really retarded because an aoe stun shouldnt do that much damage, either nerf damage or stun duration in pvp

[Fat Tire]

"Shockwave, Avatar, and Recklessness are also mentioned a lot, and we’re looking at them as well."

as long as people keep complaining, they might nerf it and to be honest shockwave is really retarded because an aoe stun shouldnt do that much damage, either nerf damage or stun duration in pvp

That quote certainly doesnt mean a nerf to shockwave is coming. People complain about mutiboxing.....as long as people keep complaining.....

I personally dont have an issue with shockwave.

[Shodokan]

Well...

It now costs over 40,000 conquest points to gear completely.

Looks like we can nolonger have alts.

[valkry]

Well...

It now costs over 40,000 conquest points to gear completely.

Looks like we can nolonger have alts.

Is it even possible to fully CP gear yourself within a season by accruing the minimum 1350 each week?

[Shodokan]

No it is not

Assuming 6 month seasons you end up with 24 weeks which puts you at about 12k short.

You need 1833 points per week to get all your gear including t2 weps.

[heyaz]

Does that 40k+ conquest points take into account the upgrade path they've announced for 5.1? I.e. add a few conquest points to a piece, upgrade it a few ilvls, kinda deal.

Unless you wanna single or dual box 3v3 I don't see anyone really capping out conquest gear + upgrades this season. You need 5v5 arena being viable to 1800 to do it on multiple teams without quitting your job. And by viable I don't mean 500 games and toughing it out

[Shodokan]

Does that 40k+ conquest points take into account the upgrade path they've announced for 5.1? I.e. add a few conquest points to a piece, upgrade it a few ilvls, kinda deal.

Unless you wanna single or dual box 3v3 I don't see anyone really capping out conquest gear + upgrades this season. You need 5v5 arena being viable to 1800 to do it on multiple teams without quitting your job. And by viable I don't mean 500 games and toughing it out

yes

[Fat Tire]

Does that 40k+ conquest points take into account the upgrade path they've announced for 5.1? I.e. add a few conquest points to a piece, upgrade it a few ilvls, kinda deal.

Unless you wanna single or dual box 3v3 I don't see anyone really capping out conquest gear + upgrades this season. You need 5v5 arena being viable to 1800 to do it on multiple teams without quitting your job. And by viable I don't mean 500 games and toughing it out

Well ratings inflation is coming at the same time as the "grind for ilvls" crap in 5.1, so I think that grabbing enough points wont be as difficult as it is right now. Hopefully they rethink this change or lower the amount of conquest points it takes to upgrade each item.

Granted this change would introduce the main reason I quit pve, the hamster wheel of gear grinding. However, its just ilvls and they are so minimal that I dont believe it will make or break pvp.

I do think the ratings inflation change is great overall for boxers because I think we will see many over 2200. I could see top 3s teams go over 3.5k. This change kills boosting and buying glad, only boosting we will see is in RBGs.

I would really like a change back to where it only took 5 wins to cap or 10 games or even 2 rbgs.

[Multibocks]

Yes please make it so i don't need to win 36 5s per week. Takes too long!

[remanz]

well, i went back to just focus on gearing 2 toons now. Playing 5s solo is not worth it. I win more in actual "dual" boxing than 5 box now.

[Multibocks]

If you're 10 boxing...

[remanz]

not saying you should dual box 2 at a time to cap points for 10 man group. I cancelled the other 3 subs to just keep going with 2. Winning 36 games in 5s (5box) is a challenge. Probably take you all weekend to do it I'd imagine. A lot of wait time, and a lot of losses, not enjoyable at all.

[Fat Tire]

well, i went back to just focus on gearing 2 toons now. Playing 5s solo is not worth it. I win more in actual "dual" boxing than 5 box now.

Welcome to the club.

I started off doing this at the beginning of cata, I must have played several hundred 2s games overall. I eventually grabbed a dedicated healer for 3s and then moved to playing all three triple dps at the end of cata. So far in mist triple dps isnt working as well as in cata, but cleave with dedicated healer is working decent enough for now.

[remanz]

2s are pretty competitive. Double DPS in 2s can't simply tunnel to 1500+ . Not much I can do to those druid + warrior teams, I am still practicing. Faced some double enchances teams (not boxed), enhance definitely looks good. Not squishy at all, at least in 2s they are not. Beat my Frost DK + Ret by simply melee treating CDs. I probably shouldn't go toe to toe with enhances with double ascendance. My Frost DK dies within ascendance 15 seconds (BOP purged). and one shaman is at 10% hp. For those who have shamans, do try out enhance, I think it is a better option than elemental.

[Fat Tire]

2s are pretty competitive. Double DPS in 2s can't simply tunnel to 1500+ . Not much I can do to those druid + warrior teams, I am still practicing. Faced some double enchances teams (not boxed), enhance definitely looks good. Not squishy at all, at least in 2s they are not. Beat my Frost DK + Ret by simply melee treating CDs. I probably shouldn't go toe to toe with enhances with double ascendance. My Frost DK dies within ascendance 15 seconds (BOP purged). and one shaman is at 10% hp. For those who have shamans, do try out enhance, I think it is a better option than elemental.


DK-Ret is not as good as it was in cata. DK has issues and the biggest issue I have found is it cant peel at all, you have grip and chains and rw takes too long to use as a peel. Using chains is a dps loss though and relying on killing machine for any dps sucks ass. Praying to the rng gods for a KM proc at the right time and then praying again for a 100k obi is just not worth it. I cant imagine trying to box more than 1 dk with all the randomness of KM/Obi rng. Soul reaper is useless in arena, I would rather spend the runes on an obi than that pos execute.

[remanz]

DK-Ret is not as good as it was in cata. DK has issues and the biggest issue I have found is it cant peel at all, you have grip and chains and rw takes too long to use as a peel. Using chains is a dps loss though and relying on killing machine for any dps sucks ass. Praying to the rng gods for a KM proc at the right time and then praying again for a 100k obi is just not worth it. I cant imagine trying to box more than 1 dk with all the randomness of KM/Obi rng. Soul reaper is useless in arena, I would rather spend the runes on an obi than that pos execute.

I also tried double warriors, it did not perform better than DK + Ret for me. I will probably try double rets next. Grip was like the only reason for me to play DK as it might get my target out of position in some occasion to land a kill. DK + Ret was like a legacy setup for me coming down from 5s. Going to try more stuff. I am interested in double ferals and double enhances as well.

EDIT: just read it that off spec healing, (hybrids like Ret/Enhance/Shadow/Balance) are getting nerfed in 5.1. So PVP power might go towards just damage for them. In that case, Double Rets, Feral, or enhances might not be so attractive anymore.

[remanz]

btw
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/243434-conquest-point-cap-increase/

To help everyone keep up with the upcoming system in 5.1 that will allow you to upgrade your Conquest gear with Conquest Points, a hotfix is being implemented very soon that will raise the Conquest Point caps:

At 1500 rating, the Arena Conquest Cap will now be 1800 (up from 1350), while the Rated Battleground Conquest cap will be 2200 (up from 1650). As always, when your rating increases, so will your cap.


Plan accordingly!

More motivation, I can't even break 1500 by myself right now, how sad

[valkry]

2s are pretty competitive. Double DPS in 2s can't simply tunnel to 1500+ . Not much I can do to those druid + warrior teams, I am still practicing. Faced some double enchances teams (not boxed), enhance definitely looks good. Not squishy at all, at least in 2s they are not. Beat my Frost DK + Ret by simply melee treating CDs. I probably shouldn't go toe to toe with enhances with double ascendance. My Frost DK dies within ascendance 15 seconds (BOP purged). and one shaman is at 10% hp. For those who have shamans, do try out enhance, I think it is a better option than elemental.

They don't need to purge BoP during ascendance, all of the enhancement's dmg becomes nature dmg does it not? Only thing they would need to purge it for would be if they have wolves out at that time too...

[Shodokan]

btw
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/243434-conquest-point-cap-increase/

To help everyone keep up with the upcoming system in 5.1 that will allow you to upgrade your Conquest gear with Conquest Points, a hotfix is being implemented very soon that will raise the Conquest Point caps:

At 1500 rating, the Arena Conquest Cap will now be 1800 (up from 1350), while the Rated Battleground Conquest cap will be 2200 (up from 1650). As always, when your rating increases, so will your cap.


Plan accordingly!

More motivation, I can't even break 1500 by myself right now, how sad

Well that makes it slightly better and easier to reach the 3k ish maximum cap per week.

25 weeks @ 1800
20 weeks @ 2200

[Fat Tire]

Well that makes it slightly better and easier to reach the 3k ish maximum cap per week.

25 weeks @ 1800
20 weeks @ 2200

I can deal with that. Now just lower the amount of wins it takes to reach the cap and I will be a happy camper.

[Kruschpakx4]

They don't need to purge BoP during ascendance, all of the enhancement's dmg becomes nature dmg does it not?

you need to purge it because its still a melee attack, like frost strike also doesnt ignore bop

[remanz]

well , purging bop was secondary. main thing was the 2 enhances were going toe to toe against my dk + ret with all CDs on both sides. With wolves up, my DK hp drops hella faster than the shamans. I will fraps some 2s matches when I have something worthy of showing. Right now, its just stun DPS -> silence on healer -> tunnel the DPS -> pray the DPS dies, and hope the healer doesn't have a clue. I tried to play 3 dps in 3s. Its not working too well. Added burst on my side is offset by added CC by the other side. Most people know how to peel in 3s now.

[heyaz]

During ascendance stormstrike(bolt) and autoattacks become nature damage and have a 30 yard range. It's also not reflected on the tooltip, and maybe because it's ignoring armor or something, but stormbolt hits for like quadruple what stormstrike does. Stormlash totem is also much more significant for enhance because it procs off just about every swing. The whole thing only lasts for 15 seconds though and with the cooldown on stormstrike(bolt) they will only get about 2 off them off but in that window it's enough damage to kill you through BoP. They neither have the time nor the reason to blow a GCD to remove protection during this window, remember also you can get hit with an instant LB, shock, and take damage from a fire ele. I haven't played enhance enough to know if lava lash also is also 100% spell damage.

Outside of this, enhance hits like other classes that have blown all their cooldowns, like an autoattacking warrior with a couple MS/HS thrown in there.

[heyaz]

Speaking of the conquest cap raise hotfix, it looks like it was implemented.

And by 1500 rating they meant 0-1500 (which was the case in the past). I'd thought they may have meant we'd have to hit 1501 or something to get the increased cap.

My druid with no rating now has, according to the tooltip:
2200 RBG Cap
1800 BG Cap
1800 Arena Cap

At least, if you're like me and leveling a new melee team, they can have weapons in 3-4 weeks. Huge relief if you have a new melee team because the weapon is so vital, especially because of the 2500ish pvp power they have.

[remanz]

oh 0-1500 for 1800 cap. great. I was fine tuning everything and prepared to push for 1501 ratings (hovering around 1400 right now) in 2s. The blacksmith i463 2h axe are so inflated right now. You can buy them right away at level 90. The pvp conquest 2h is only 470. It is not a huge upgrade vs the blue one (do + some more pvp power).

[heyaz]

It's the 2235 PVP power that makes it so big. That's like 8% increased pvp damage on that stat alone:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=84790

The stats also doesn't have any weight against ilvl so, the end with all + 7 ilvls of the stats from the BS one.

Not that I won't be buying those BS ones (I'm not pvp'ing for 3.5 weeks with 350s), or at least doing a couple heroics and trying to score a couple free ones.

[remanz]

Ya, Scalet Halls, Shadow Pan and Scholomance I think. Those 3 drop 2h weapons. I run these 3 for like 40 times combine across two 5 man teams. Not a single 2h dropped for me. Ended up buying/crafting 10 2h weapons.

Btw, try 4 blood DK. It is unkillable in arena. Your damage it is kind of gimped but you will not die. People have been complaining about blood. It is the only tanking spec working in arena right now. I tried prod pally. It dies way faster than blood DK. A double blood DK team vs 2 dps team is "alllllmost" a guarantee win.

[Mokoi]

Blood DKs are getting nerfed in PvP.

The heal from their death strike no longer heals from any PvP or PvP controlled minion damage. now you will just slowly die, and not heal yourself. lame.

[valkry]

Blood DKs are getting nerfed in PvP.

The heal from their death strike no longer heals from any PvP or PvP controlled minion damage. now you will just slowly die, and not heal yourself. lame.

I'm sorry for you, but this makes me very happy

[zenga]

Blood DKs are getting nerfed in PvP.

The heal from their death strike no longer heals from any PvP or PvP controlled minion damage. now you will just slowly die, and not heal yourself. lame.

You almost made me fall off my chair by calling that lame.

[remanz]

It was a little over the top for sure. In the 2s matches I tried, my prod pally dies within 2mins. I used bubble, heals, defensive CDs, everything. Warrior / Ret picked it apart. My Blood DK was able to 1 v 2 and kill both of them in 7mins after that. So use it before they nerf it then.